How are DC's inferior due to power drain mechanics, and compared to what? Please include any recorded data comparisons that you may have as well.
Also in regards to the second part of the "quote",that was a discussion response prior to the DC vs DHC data comparison being brought to light on 2/8/13.
DC recommendations in the OP were removed when there was finally some scientific evidence brought forward in the DC vs DHC debate proving that DHC's provided more damage. While I am happy to do that, I will not go back and change every post, but I will note updates as they come about as I did in post #113. The biggest thing that came forward, I believe in that was that the higher firing rate of the DC's does not double the chance of a proc as widely believed. As there was nothing aside from the data link that I had found (and eventually posted), there was no way for anyone to have KNOWN that DHC's had a higher damage output. Not to mention, the damage difference is quite small, however it is there, so it must be mentioned.
If the player's ship uses the Omega Set Tetryon Glider, DC's will drain shields twice as fast over DHC's since that mechanic is hit-count-based. Otherwise, DHC's will out-damage DC's because of the extra 10% critical severity.
BTW, in light of the most recent Romulan weapons and gear, plasma now has the highest DPS output at this current patch due to the new Embassy plasma-infused science consoles. The Hyperplasma launcher can drop multiple shield-ignoring plasma fire stacks on enemy targets. The new Experimental beam array is also quite nasty -- using its hyperflux firing mode with FoMM and AP-Beta3, I watched an ESTF Negh'var and Cubes literally melt in seconds.
This is the Breen warpship build that I presently run in ESTF's and Fleet actions:
Ship Gear: Full Borg Space Set
-Weapons-
Fore = 2 Plasma DHC's + 1 Romulan Experimental Beam Array + 1 Romulan Hyper Plasma Torpedo Launcher
Aft = 3 Plasma Turrets + 1 Kinetic Cutting Beam
Devices = Red Matter Capacitor, Subspace Field Modulator
Consoles: Tachyokinetic Converter, Rule 62 Multipurpose Combat Console, Borg Assimilated Universal Module, Field Generator, Breen Power Dissipator OR Romulan Science Console, Plasma Infuser x4
I don't bother with torp spreads since HYT3 Hyper-plasmas + GW1 yields much more net damage, especially against ESTF gates and tac-cubes. I've beaten Hive Space Elite more than a few times by cooking the queen with her shields over 80%.
How are DC's inferior due to power drain mechanics, and compared to what?
DC fire twice as often as DHC for the same theoretical dps. DC drain 10% each time where DHC draw 13%. In 2 shots of dc will draw 20 in the same time frame dhc draw the same 13.
Example.
You start with 125/100 weapons power and you fire with a -13 for 112/100. The dc fires the first shot of -10 making 125/100 drop to 115/100 so when the second salvo fires it drops to 105/100. Even though the recharge time is fast on the weapons power the second salvo @ 115/100 will have less dps then the first salvo at 125/100. this also means that the 2 shots compared to 1 bigger shot has less practical dps even though the theoretical dps is the same.
The advantage to dc over dhc is the proc. twice the shots means twice the proc chances however with proc immunity cooldowns that has also been reduced.
He's arguing that we're stupid (me namely) for initially thinking that the DC's would dish out more damage based on the idea that the 2x firing rate would lead to 2x more procs.
The test used a controlled environment and kept track of procs as well. Both dual and dual heavy cannons proc'd the same amount of times. There was no increase for DC's.
This disproves the widely believed theory of having a higher proc chance with DC's due to their fire-rate being 2x as fast. So it appears that the firing rate really does have no bearing on proc's, but rather the amount of firing "cycles", where a DC will fire 2x in a cycle and a DHC will fire once. Despite the faster firing rate, they each fired but one cycle (and thats apparently what matters).
Does anyone have any evidence that disproves this? The data seemed to be legitimate.
In regards to plasma doing more damage, I would have to agree with damage bonus given by the Romulan set. Luckily I already use plasma's on all of my ships besides my escorts. I will make mention of this when I edit the OP next.
Does anyone have any evidence that disproves this? The data seemed to be legitimate.
Unfortunately this data is still subject to change based on build. Under normal circumstances they should be pretty close. Most people have a low Critical Chance rate so the critical severity bonus of dhc is minimal when compared to the proc so it is like splitting hairs. The Romulan set does boost the proc substantially but the Romulan Boffs up the crits (Even post patch changes) so we are now looking at how one arranged the build to make use of what they are after. When we look at crf or csv we are already changing how both work.
Lets take a look at my build with all the boff changes. Even though I have a pretty good plasma proc it can only proc so often and crf already doubles the firing rate of my dhc so it has the similar firing rate as a dc anyway. Since I chose crf as my buff of choice I can then focus on crit which it already at a global level of crth of 14.9% and a crtd of 81.8%.
the crtd is magnitude of the hit. The larger base shot of the single hit then the larger the severity when it does crit. That is not dependant on crth which controls the frequency of the crit. crf makes my dhcs fire twice as often so more shots more chances.
With my crth already at 14.9% I know my odds of criting are already slightly better then 1 in 7 shots. now we need to look at the non dps level. My dhcs at rest hit at 2267.1 per shot. At the same dps a Dc would only do 1133.6 damage per shot. My dhc have a [CrtD]x2 for a severity of +50 to add to my +81.8 for a total of 131.8 severity. I want that on a larger salvo. That is also non-buffed damage. It increases further with apa, gdf, etc.
Unfortunately most data mining cannot account for that. The average build usually has a global crth of about 3%. How you build your build will make any data useless. There are way too many factors to test it all. the only way to do a test is by use base weapons with base stats and they are going to be the same at that point. All base data is useless for practical use.
If I were to go by proc there is no way to up the % from 2.5% other then firing more often so crf is a procs friend however you can only light the person on fire so much or in the case of phasers if you do proc they have a 15 second immunity so the proc is both limited and not scalable. the only proc game worth doing is adding multiple proc The Romulan plasma weapons that have a disruptor proc as well. Then if you add the tetryon glider from the omega set you have 3 procs.
I chose dhcs because crits stack and larger with bigger salvo damage. Procs are always the same.
Edit: Quick sample from my log. These are not in a row but a quick sample while I was doing 1 cure run. Procs can't meet this.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 11645 (5884) Plasma Damage(Critical) to Borg Negh'Var Warship.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 10060 (3642) Plasma Damage to Assimilated Carrier.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 11111 (4023) Plasma Damage to Assimilated Carrier.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 11137 (4032) Plasma Damage to Assimilated Carrier.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 19809 (7172) Plasma Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 18467 (6686) Plasma Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 20367 (7374) Plasma Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.
When creating a new character, you can select the ability "Efficient Captain" if you decide to create an alien. This has the same effect as 2x efficient Boffs.
Don't know if it was mentioned in the other 11 pages, but Joined Trill Captains also have a space trait available, Joined Symbiote which provides
Lets take a look at my build with all the boff changes. Even though I have a pretty good plasma proc it can only proc so often and crf already doubles the firing rate of my dhc so it has the similar firing rate as a dc anyway. Since I chose crf as my buff of choice I can then focus on crit which it already at a global level of crth of 14.9% and a crtd of 81.8%.
Dear lord she's gorgeous! Not an ounce of fat on her. Seriously, I'd have to use photoshop to post a pic of a build that tight.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
It's fair to call me grumpy, less so to call me a troll, but whatever. Here in the meta accurate information is srs bsns.
Weapon flavor is per cycle. DEM and Tet Glider proc per shot. So you will actually get more benefit from those two from DC's.
Dear lord she's gorgeous! Not an ounce of fat on her. Seriously, I'd have to use photoshop to post a pic of a build that tight.
Minor nitpick but last I heart Tet Glider proc was scaled to deal the same over time on DHCs and DCs, or hits twice as hard per DHC shot with half the shots. DEM is not scaled though AFAIK.
Oh and I don't know for sure but because of the longer firing cycle of the cutting beam vs DHCs I would think it would actually cost you DPS since your DHCs would not fire at optimum power all the time but the proc might make up for that, I don't know that is one of those things impossible to determine mathematically.
Okay, so I have read the first page of this thread and I have skimmed the rest of the posts, and I figured I would throw in what I have to the tac wolves of STO and see what you have to say lol.
I am currently running the Armitage Heavy Escort Carrier as a Tac Captain, I know I am missing a few things to make it complete, but it works for what I use it for atm.
The build I am currently running is more for shield busting than hull killing.
Fore:
x3 Mk XI Tetryon DHC's
x1 Mk XI Quantum Torp
(The DHC are very rare, and the torp is rare only because I couldn't afford a full MK XII very rare setup)
Aft:
x3 Mk XI Tetryon Turrets (Again they are Mk XI very rare only because I couldn't afford the Mk XII very rares)
Mk XII Positron Deflector (very rare)
Mk XI Jem Engines
Mk XI Jem Shields
(In the process of replacing the Jem Parts. They were free and got me by)
(Laugh if you want..)
Scorpion fighter and antiproton turrets in devices. I know..worthless...I just haven't changed them yet..
x3 Mk XI rare Neutronium alloy (couldn't afford better ones)
x2 Mk XI rare Shield Emitters (trying to replace with field gens)
x1 Mk XI very rare Tetryon Pulse gen x2 Mk X rare Tetryon Pluse gen (again I can't afford the good ****) and the 360 torp PDFS that comes on the Armitage as well as the fighters that come with it.
BOFF setup is:
Cmd Tac - Torp HY 1, Torp Spread 2 , CRF 2, Attack Pattern Omega 3
Lt Tac - Tac Team 1, CSV 1
Ens Tac - Tac Team 1
Lt Cmd Engi - Emergency Power to Shields 1, Engi Team 2, Directed Energy Mod 2 (Borg BOFF)
Lt Sci - Sci team 1, Hazard Emitters 2
DOFF setup is:
x3 rare Brace for impact officers
x2 very rare flight deck officers (a total of +20% defense while in recall mode)
Power levels from left to right:
125/48/45/73
And there you have it, my "messed up build" as some might call it. I am in the slow process of getting Mk XII stuff when I can, I am also in the process of working towards my MACO set. I ran a few elite cures and parsed the combat logs while doing so and with this current build I am averaging 4500 dps, this for me is also heavily dependent on timing with Tac fleet and Go Down Fighting. And there is a method to the madness of having that much power in AUX. The closer to 75 you have in aux the more it counteracts the power drain to weapons. I also need to redo my skill points because I have points in places I don't need.
Though I will not disagree that the AP, Dis, and Plasma weapons are awesome, I use Tetryon to break the shields for everyone else, and faster than everyone else so the real damage can begin.
Feel free to comment what you want, all I ask is don't be an insensitive man child about the ordeal.
and for you trathnona... Given that this is geared towards STF"s, I HAVE to point out that the JEM shields are doing you NO favors. Make sure your positron deflector has [SIF] and [shds] bonuses. If not, get a MK XII blue that does (pretty inexpensive)
You will want to look at a Covariant [CAP]x2 [Pla] or [cap][reg][pla] shileds. As high of a level as you can get. Again perhaps a mk xii blue [cap][pla] would work due to being inexpensive.
I also have to point out that in STF's the tetryons aren't going to do you any favors for a large portion of the time you're shooting at the cubes as theior shields tend to go down quick, but just hull tank forever. They will also do you no favors against the generator, gate or transformers. I also find it hard to recommend single energy types anymore unless they're fleet weapons of borg weapons considering the dual-proc energy types available now. There is also the polarized tetryon DC's that give you a 10% proc chance rather than standard 2.5% for all other weapons. (That's what you'll want if you really want to destroy shields).
However the energy weapon type is the least of your worries. Get some shields/deflector to protect you, make sure to use monotanium/electroceramic hull plating combo (2x neutronium essentially does the same thing but is more expensive)
I wouldn't worry about the torps for now, as you can get some sweet torps from the reputation stuff.
The Positron Deflector I have gives to shields, and structural so I am good on that front. As for the energy type I use, I just recently started doing STF's so I am still learning what goes on. The jem shields I already know serve no purpose, it was free and it worked for what I needed it for. As I said in my first post I am currently running x3 Mk XI Neutronium Alloy so I am set on the resistances. The torp I have is of my own choosing, I use it for taking care of enemy boarding parties when I go do my farming missions, same with my torp PDFS.
I do appreciate the input on the shields to look at, and as far as me using Tetryon, if it proves to be useless for me later on, I will change.
Cmd Tac - Torp HY 1, Torp Spread 2 , CRF 2, Attack Pattern Omega 3
Lt Tac - Tac Team 1, CSV 1
Ens Tac - Tac Team 1
Lt Cmd Engi - Emergency Power to Shields 1, Engi Team 2, Directed Energy Mod 2 (Borg BOFF)
Lt Sci - Sci team 1, Hazard Emitters 2
You might want to look at Aux2Sif instead of Eng team. Your Aux power is already high enough to get a very nice resist boost and a heal every 15 seconds without a shared cool down with tac team. if you are using dem2 for the bog doff then you might want to drop it to dem1 so you can use aux2sif2.
I would also drop sci team due to cool down as well. I would go with Tss2 and he1. With aux2sif you will not need he2 as a primary heal but more to cure dots. tss2 would be a nice heal for your shields to.
I've grown to be a fan of engineering team 2/3 with a maintenance engineer doff to reduce cooldown. As far as the directed energy mod, I haven't used it in a while, but I remember using it some time ago and didn't care much for it.
Aux2SIF, I can't really speak on as I haven't used it in a year or so.
I currently only have 3x DHC Mk XI [Acc] [CrtH] [Borg] and 3x Turret Mk XI [Acc] [CrtH] [Borg] weapons, with the [Borg] weapons not available anymore which weapon would be the best overall upgrade from those?
Should I get Advanced Fleet Antiproton? If so, should I use the [Acc] mod or not?
or
Should I look for something else? If so, which direction should I look, hybrid or not?
I currently only have 3x DHC Mk XI [Acc] [CrtH] [Borg] and 3x Turret Mk XI [Acc] [CrtH] [Borg] weapons, with the [Borg] weapons not available anymore which weapon would be the best overall upgrade from those?
Should I get Advanced Fleet Antiproton? If so, should I use the [Acc] mod or not?
or
Should I look for something else? If so, which direction should I look, hybrid or not?
If you are using antiproton then the mk xii borg weapons are available through the rep store once unlocked.
Agreed ^ Although if I didn't already have MK XII AntiProton borg weapons on my escorts, I would go for plasma. I'm glad now that I went for plasma over disruptors on all my cruisers/sci ships now though.
If you are using antiproton then the mk xii borg weapons are available through the rep store once unlocked.
Okay, I will look forward to unlocking the MK XII Borg weapons, should take me about a week to reach Tier 5/ Mean while, are any of the Fleet Science Consoles worth it?
From my best guess the Shield Restoration looks like it's worth while, maybe the Hull Restoration one a little but not a lot. Right now I currently have Field Gen MK XI.
robmc, I have seen the screen shots of your load outs, I was wondering what Type of Plasma DHCs are you using? Also could the Plasma set up you have beat a Antiproton [Borg] load out on the same ship?
robmc, I have seen the screen shots of your load outs, I was wondering what Type of Plasma DHCs are you using? Also could the Plasma set up you have beat a Antiproton [Borg] load out on the same ship?
Thank you for your advice and help.
I am using standard Plasma dhc [Acc] [CrtD]x2
In PvE it can out preform antiprotons in raw damage due to the embassy consoles and romulan set bonuses since they only effect plasma. That gives me +175 plasma damage where there is nothing that can boost anti proton past the +150 antiproton damage. That raw damage is also reflected in the crit bonuses. Also mk xii purple plasma consoles are a whole lot cheaper then the antiproton equivalent. It is also harder to get mk xii ap dhcs where the plasma is also easier to obtain.
PvP is a different story due to higher plasma resistances due to borg based gear. It is hard to say if the plasma boost offsets the resistances. that requires more testing. These resistances npcs do not have.
The passive crit that ap has over the plasma proc does not matter to me because my global crit from the romulan boffs more then make up for that shortage.
The questions is do you pvp or pve. pve plasma is definitely preferred.
Edit: also the hyper plasma torp is useless in a PvP against a FAW Cruiser.
Some very good stuff in the this thread and most importantly a lot of sage comments and insights.
Thanks for taking the time to read. I've tried to keep things on track and factual as possible, as there is so much disinformation spread in chat channels. Not intentionally, but some people just assume and the info gets spread and hurts others. With this thread, any newb can atleast get setup to do STF's. If they just ask a few questions and do a few on normal to pickup the rules, they're good to go. Perhaps I will post some of the STF cardinal rules for each of them such as the 10-15% rule for infected.
P.S. As far as your placement of the word "sage". I don't think I've heard that word use outside of the use as a spice in some time. Well played sir.
The Positron Deflector I have gives to shields, and structural so I am good on that front.
The Positron deflectors standard stats give a bonus to shield cap, regen and structural integrity, however the addition of the [SIF] and [Shds] and/or [Em] bonuses only increases it. I can't find a reason not to as there's not many other bonuses that help an escort with the exception of drain resistance and knock/repel resistance to a lesser extent.
Thanks for taking the time to read. I've tried to keep things on track and factual as possible, as there is so much disinformation spread in chat channels. Not intentionally, but some people just assume and the info gets spread and hurts others. With this thread, any newb can atleast get setup to do STF's. If they just ask a few questions and do a few on normal to pickup the rules, they're good to go. Perhaps I will post some of the STF cardinal rules for each of them such as the 10-15% rule for infected.
P.S. As far as your placement of the word "sage". I don't think I've heard that word use outside of the use as a spice in some time. Well played sir.
Cool. For what it is worth, I once considered making a tactical officers handbook with specific builds for different roles and feature different specialized variants as well as weapon damage and armor tables with various set comparisons. Sort of a one-stop shop for old and new tac players alike. Moreover I thought it would be nice to add screenshots and some other nice "pro" things all with a distinctive ST flavor much like SpiderMike's Ship images but sadly I've never gotten around to doing so. It would sure be nice to see someone make it happen. Once all the raw data is organized then it would simply be a matter of layout and graphics. I was even considering adding a combat tactics section as well with race specific load-outs and attack pattern movements as well as team variant versions but I digress....
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
Cool. For what it is worth, I once considered making a tactical officers handbook with specific builds for different roles and feature different specialized variants as well as weapon damage and armor tables with various set comparisons. Sort of a one-stop shop for old and new tac players alike. Moreover I thought it would be nice to add screenshots and some other nice "pro" things all with a distinctive ST flavor much like SpiderMike's Ship images but sadly I've never gotten around to doing so. It would sure be nice to see someone make it happen. Once all the raw data is organized then it would simply be a matter of layout and graphics. I was even considering adding a combat tactics section as well with race specific load-outs and attack pattern movements as well as team variant versions but I digress....
I would LOVE to see this happen, getting good solid advice from pro's is the best way to enjoy the game and help out team mates.
I would REALLY welcome some advice on how to take damage without blowing up lol
Well the best tanking build is an Eng in a sci vessel. There are also 3 skill tree items if you want to tank starship Hull plating, Starship armor reinforcement and starship threat control they all add to your passive resistances. I will use one of my builds again as an example.
The other option is speed tanking by boosting your bonus defence usually with a hyper eng. There are abilities like evasive manuvers That also boost this number as well.
This ship is also a heal boat with development lab scientists and also looking at my regen rate with a nurse doff as well. This build has not done any reputation and has no embassy gear and is therefore not complete.
The problem with focusing on durability is that you have almost no dps to draw agro even with treat control. The nice thing about transphasics is that you get to do more hull damage initially until the shield facing on a cube or donatra drops giving you a bit of priority.
Speed tanking is also hard to do unless you are broad siding in an stf because the targets barely move.
This level of tanking and healing is also not possible on an escort which is completely off track for this thread which is why it has not been mentioned as its focus is on stf's, escorts and damage. this build is more of a pvp healer or a no-win-scenario crowd control freighter healer. Spec'ing is also very different once catered to the direction you are on.
As far as an escort is concerned for not blowing up that is why I use -th embassy consoles and choose crf over csv. When focusing on 1 target at a time you will usually only draw the agro of 1 target. NPCs usually only use focus fire abilities and the last thing you want is 6 spheres shooting at you. It also allows cruisers with FAW to do their tanking job by having more agro. Most escorts can not survive a mob firing on it.
The only other thing to remember is that these ships have firing ranges and if you are 9.97 km away from the gate it cant shoot you. Also the weapons fire follows the same path in both direction. If I am at a stand still My hyper plasma torp will travel on the same path as the borg hyt and they will collide with each other every time (Assuming the borg cube is not moving like in infected or the cure, tac cube move so slow it is like they arnt moving). Also if they collide right next to the cube the AoE from their hyt will do significant damage to the cube. Not only do I not get hit but it back fires on them.
The questions is do you pvp or pve. pve plasma is definitely preferred.
I have focused on PvE mostly, but have been looking in to PvP here lately. Might look more into PvP once my fleet reaches Tier 4 shipyard (going to be slow, I feel like I have been doing most of the dilithium for the projects but thats a different story on it's own)
As for the Plasma I see what you mean by cheaper and with the added bonus from the Fleet Sci Cons it would add up alot more. Your Skill build that is posted in this thread, would that be Ideal for using plasma, if I decide to try it?
If wondering my Current Build - http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=mtdorinz_0
The BOFFs are kind of copied from robdmc Screenshots but with a couple tweeks while using the Mobius Destroyer. (No Romulan BOFF's still 1d, 17h till I can get them in fleet)
The AP DHCs and Turrets are all [Borg]
The Sci Consoles are the Fleet Emitter Array Mk X [ShH] [-Th]
Overall survivability I personally feel is a bit better than with my Fleet Patrol Escort, I am accounting that to the LtC Science BOFF.
I also have a Fleet Patrol Escort, Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort Carrier, Blockade Escort. I can get a Fleet Tactical Escort at anytime, but have some time till the Fleet Advanced Escort becomes available in my Fleet.
No Romulan BOFF's still 1d, 17h till I can get them in fleet
I would use human boffs in the mean time. the extra hull regen rate is nice.
The rest of you build is ok. most of the tweaks in your build are more personal preference. Plasmas only advantage is cost and embassy Consoles. The Zero Point Energy Conduit works well with the Romulan Hyper-Plasma Torpedo Launcher. I assume you are still waiting for it in the rep system. In the mean time the ap weapons you have are fine. With the investment you already made the real question is are you going to keep building your ap or is it too much and worth switching over and rebuilding. (I know I built mine one peace at a time starting with borg weapons as well) Both options are legit at the moment. Keep in mind that plasma is only the biggest weapon at the moment and as they expand the game the other will probably get more perks. Plasma was first. who knows maybe we will get a sci ap console in a future fleet holding,
I would use human boffs in the mean time. the extra hull regen rate is nice.
The rest of you build is ok. most of the tweaks in your build are more personal preference. Plasmas only advantage is cost and embassy Consoles. The Zero Point Energy Conduit works well with the Romulan Hyper-Plasma Torpedo Launcher. I assume you are still waiting for it in the rep system. In the mean time the ap weapons you have are fine. With the investment you already made the real question is are you going to keep building your ap or is it too much and worth switching over and rebuilding. (I know I built mine one peace at a time starting with borg weapons as well) Both options are legit at the moment. Keep in mind that plasma is only the biggest weapon at the moment and as they expand the game the other will probably get more perks. Plasma was first. who knows maybe we will get a sci ap console in a future fleet holding,
Yeah, I have 3 Human and 2 Saurian boffs, the hull regen is great when I end up with aggro to much.
Which tweeks would you make to the build I have? I just wondering, I like to keep an open mind for things of this nature.
As for the Romulan Hyper-Plasma Torpedo Launcher, Tier 3 finishes today so not to much longer.
As for the change to Plasma, it's not like I don't have ships to spare or Boffs to spare to play around with it. Just the start up cost which isn't too bad since I can still sell lockbox ships I have in my bank (and not the mirror universe ones, lol).
Comments
If the player's ship uses the Omega Set Tetryon Glider, DC's will drain shields twice as fast over DHC's since that mechanic is hit-count-based. Otherwise, DHC's will out-damage DC's because of the extra 10% critical severity.
BTW, in light of the most recent Romulan weapons and gear, plasma now has the highest DPS output at this current patch due to the new Embassy plasma-infused science consoles. The Hyperplasma launcher can drop multiple shield-ignoring plasma fire stacks on enemy targets. The new Experimental beam array is also quite nasty -- using its hyperflux firing mode with FoMM and AP-Beta3, I watched an ESTF Negh'var and Cubes literally melt in seconds.
This is the Breen warpship build that I presently run in ESTF's and Fleet actions:
Ship Gear: Full Borg Space Set
-Weapons-
Fore = 2 Plasma DHC's + 1 Romulan Experimental Beam Array + 1 Romulan Hyper Plasma Torpedo Launcher
Aft = 3 Plasma Turrets + 1 Kinetic Cutting Beam
Devices = Red Matter Capacitor, Subspace Field Modulator
Consoles: Tachyokinetic Converter, Rule 62 Multipurpose Combat Console, Borg Assimilated Universal Module, Field Generator, Breen Power Dissipator OR Romulan Science Console, Plasma Infuser x4
BOFFS:
Ensign Univ: BO1
Commander Tac: TT1, CSV1, HYT3, AP-Beta3
Lt.Tac: TT1, CSV1
Lt.Eng: EPtS1, EPtS2
Lt.CmdrSci: HE1, ST1, GW1
DOFSS: 3 Attack Pattern Conn-doffs, 2 Projectile Weapon Officers
I don't bother with torp spreads since HYT3 Hyper-plasmas + GW1 yields much more net damage, especially against ESTF gates and tac-cubes. I've beaten Hive Space Elite more than a few times by cooking the queen with her shields over 80%.
DC fire twice as often as DHC for the same theoretical dps. DC drain 10% each time where DHC draw 13%. In 2 shots of dc will draw 20 in the same time frame dhc draw the same 13.
Example.
You start with 125/100 weapons power and you fire with a -13 for 112/100. The dc fires the first shot of -10 making 125/100 drop to 115/100 so when the second salvo fires it drops to 105/100. Even though the recharge time is fast on the weapons power the second salvo @ 115/100 will have less dps then the first salvo at 125/100. this also means that the 2 shots compared to 1 bigger shot has less practical dps even though the theoretical dps is the same.
The advantage to dc over dhc is the proc. twice the shots means twice the proc chances however with proc immunity cooldowns that has also been reduced.
http://deepspacealliance.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/game-mechanics-revealed-dual-cannons-vs.html
He's arguing that we're stupid (me namely) for initially thinking that the DC's would dish out more damage based on the idea that the 2x firing rate would lead to 2x more procs.
The test used a controlled environment and kept track of procs as well. Both dual and dual heavy cannons proc'd the same amount of times. There was no increase for DC's.
This disproves the widely believed theory of having a higher proc chance with DC's due to their fire-rate being 2x as fast. So it appears that the firing rate really does have no bearing on proc's, but rather the amount of firing "cycles", where a DC will fire 2x in a cycle and a DHC will fire once. Despite the faster firing rate, they each fired but one cycle (and thats apparently what matters).
Does anyone have any evidence that disproves this? The data seemed to be legitimate.
In regards to plasma doing more damage, I would have to agree with damage bonus given by the Romulan set. Luckily I already use plasma's on all of my ships besides my escorts. I will make mention of this when I edit the OP next.
Unfortunately this data is still subject to change based on build. Under normal circumstances they should be pretty close. Most people have a low Critical Chance rate so the critical severity bonus of dhc is minimal when compared to the proc so it is like splitting hairs. The Romulan set does boost the proc substantially but the Romulan Boffs up the crits (Even post patch changes) so we are now looking at how one arranged the build to make use of what they are after. When we look at crf or csv we are already changing how both work.
Lets take a look at my build with all the boff changes. Even though I have a pretty good plasma proc it can only proc so often and crf already doubles the firing rate of my dhc so it has the similar firing rate as a dc anyway. Since I chose crf as my buff of choice I can then focus on crit which it already at a global level of crth of 14.9% and a crtd of 81.8%.
the crtd is magnitude of the hit. The larger base shot of the single hit then the larger the severity when it does crit. That is not dependant on crth which controls the frequency of the crit. crf makes my dhcs fire twice as often so more shots more chances.
With my crth already at 14.9% I know my odds of criting are already slightly better then 1 in 7 shots. now we need to look at the non dps level. My dhcs at rest hit at 2267.1 per shot. At the same dps a Dc would only do 1133.6 damage per shot. My dhc have a [CrtD]x2 for a severity of +50 to add to my +81.8 for a total of 131.8 severity. I want that on a larger salvo. That is also non-buffed damage. It increases further with apa, gdf, etc.
Unfortunately most data mining cannot account for that. The average build usually has a global crth of about 3%. How you build your build will make any data useless. There are way too many factors to test it all. the only way to do a test is by use base weapons with base stats and they are going to be the same at that point. All base data is useless for practical use.
If I were to go by proc there is no way to up the % from 2.5% other then firing more often so crf is a procs friend however you can only light the person on fire so much or in the case of phasers if you do proc they have a 15 second immunity so the proc is both limited and not scalable. the only proc game worth doing is adding multiple proc The Romulan plasma weapons that have a disruptor proc as well. Then if you add the tetryon glider from the omega set you have 3 procs.
I chose dhcs because crits stack and larger with bigger salvo damage. Procs are always the same.
Edit: Quick sample from my log. These are not in a row but a quick sample while I was doing 1 cure run. Procs can't meet this.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 11645 (5884) Plasma Damage(Critical) to Borg Negh'Var Warship.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 10060 (3642) Plasma Damage to Assimilated Carrier.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 11111 (4023) Plasma Damage to Assimilated Carrier.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 11137 (4032) Plasma Damage to Assimilated Carrier.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 19809 (7172) Plasma Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 18467 (6686) Plasma Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.
[Combat (Self)] Your Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons - Rapid Fire III deals 20367 (7374) Plasma Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.
Don't know if it was mentioned in the other 11 pages, but Joined Trill Captains also have a space trait available, Joined Symbiote which provides
+3.3 Starship Hull Repair
+3.3 Starship Shield Emitters
+3.3 Starship Weapons Training
+3.3 Starship Warp Core Potential
+6.7 Starship Graviton Generators
+6.7 Starship Particle Generator
+6.7 Starship Subspace Decompiler
Weapon flavor is per cycle. DEM and Tet Glider proc per shot. So you will actually get more benefit from those two from DC's. Dear lord she's gorgeous! Not an ounce of fat on her. Seriously, I'd have to use photoshop to post a pic of a build that tight.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Minor nitpick but last I heart Tet Glider proc was scaled to deal the same over time on DHCs and DCs, or hits twice as hard per DHC shot with half the shots. DEM is not scaled though AFAIK.
Oh and I don't know for sure but because of the longer firing cycle of the cutting beam vs DHCs I would think it would actually cost you DPS since your DHCs would not fire at optimum power all the time but the proc might make up for that, I don't know that is one of those things impossible to determine mathematically.
Thanks. It takes a long time.
I am currently running the Armitage Heavy Escort Carrier as a Tac Captain, I know I am missing a few things to make it complete, but it works for what I use it for atm.
The build I am currently running is more for shield busting than hull killing.
Fore:
x3 Mk XI Tetryon DHC's
x1 Mk XI Quantum Torp
(The DHC are very rare, and the torp is rare only because I couldn't afford a full MK XII very rare setup)
Aft:
x3 Mk XI Tetryon Turrets (Again they are Mk XI very rare only because I couldn't afford the Mk XII very rares)
Mk XII Positron Deflector (very rare)
Mk XI Jem Engines
Mk XI Jem Shields
(In the process of replacing the Jem Parts. They were free and got me by)
(Laugh if you want..)
Scorpion fighter and antiproton turrets in devices. I know..worthless...I just haven't changed them yet..
x3 Mk XI rare Neutronium alloy (couldn't afford better ones)
x2 Mk XI rare Shield Emitters (trying to replace with field gens)
x1 Mk XI very rare Tetryon Pulse gen x2 Mk X rare Tetryon Pluse gen (again I can't afford the good ****) and the 360 torp PDFS that comes on the Armitage as well as the fighters that come with it.
BOFF setup is:
Cmd Tac - Torp HY 1, Torp Spread 2 , CRF 2, Attack Pattern Omega 3
Lt Tac - Tac Team 1, CSV 1
Ens Tac - Tac Team 1
Lt Cmd Engi - Emergency Power to Shields 1, Engi Team 2, Directed Energy Mod 2 (Borg BOFF)
Lt Sci - Sci team 1, Hazard Emitters 2
DOFF setup is:
x3 rare Brace for impact officers
x2 very rare flight deck officers (a total of +20% defense while in recall mode)
Power levels from left to right:
125/48/45/73
And there you have it, my "messed up build" as some might call it. I am in the slow process of getting Mk XII stuff when I can, I am also in the process of working towards my MACO set. I ran a few elite cures and parsed the combat logs while doing so and with this current build I am averaging 4500 dps, this for me is also heavily dependent on timing with Tac fleet and Go Down Fighting. And there is a method to the madness of having that much power in AUX. The closer to 75 you have in aux the more it counteracts the power drain to weapons. I also need to redo my skill points because I have points in places I don't need.
Though I will not disagree that the AP, Dis, and Plasma weapons are awesome, I use Tetryon to break the shields for everyone else, and faster than everyone else so the real damage can begin.
Feel free to comment what you want, all I ask is don't be an insensitive man child about the ordeal.
For the sake of agreement I have edited my previous statement...
You will want to look at a Covariant [CAP]x2 [Pla] or [cap][reg][pla] shileds. As high of a level as you can get. Again perhaps a mk xii blue [cap][pla] would work due to being inexpensive.
I also have to point out that in STF's the tetryons aren't going to do you any favors for a large portion of the time you're shooting at the cubes as theior shields tend to go down quick, but just hull tank forever. They will also do you no favors against the generator, gate or transformers. I also find it hard to recommend single energy types anymore unless they're fleet weapons of borg weapons considering the dual-proc energy types available now. There is also the polarized tetryon DC's that give you a 10% proc chance rather than standard 2.5% for all other weapons. (That's what you'll want if you really want to destroy shields).
However the energy weapon type is the least of your worries. Get some shields/deflector to protect you, make sure to use monotanium/electroceramic hull plating combo (2x neutronium essentially does the same thing but is more expensive)
I wouldn't worry about the torps for now, as you can get some sweet torps from the reputation stuff.
I do appreciate the input on the shields to look at, and as far as me using Tetryon, if it proves to be useless for me later on, I will change.
You might want to look at Aux2Sif instead of Eng team. Your Aux power is already high enough to get a very nice resist boost and a heal every 15 seconds without a shared cool down with tac team. if you are using dem2 for the bog doff then you might want to drop it to dem1 so you can use aux2sif2.
I would also drop sci team due to cool down as well. I would go with Tss2 and he1. With aux2sif you will not need he2 as a primary heal but more to cure dots. tss2 would be a nice heal for your shields to.
Aux2SIF, I can't really speak on as I haven't used it in a year or so.
I currently only have 3x DHC Mk XI [Acc] [CrtH] [Borg] and 3x Turret Mk XI [Acc] [CrtH] [Borg] weapons, with the [Borg] weapons not available anymore which weapon would be the best overall upgrade from those?
Should I get Advanced Fleet Antiproton? If so, should I use the [Acc] mod or not?
or
Should I look for something else? If so, which direction should I look, hybrid or not?
If you are using antiproton then the mk xii borg weapons are available through the rep store once unlocked.
Okay, I will look forward to unlocking the MK XII Borg weapons, should take me about a week to reach Tier 5/ Mean while, are any of the Fleet Science Consoles worth it?
From my best guess the Shield Restoration looks like it's worth while, maybe the Hull Restoration one a little but not a lot. Right now I currently have Field Gen MK XI.
robmc, I have seen the screen shots of your load outs, I was wondering what Type of Plasma DHCs are you using? Also could the Plasma set up you have beat a Antiproton [Borg] load out on the same ship?
Thank you for your advice and help.
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
I am using standard Plasma dhc [Acc] [CrtD]x2
In PvE it can out preform antiprotons in raw damage due to the embassy consoles and romulan set bonuses since they only effect plasma. That gives me +175 plasma damage where there is nothing that can boost anti proton past the +150 antiproton damage. That raw damage is also reflected in the crit bonuses. Also mk xii purple plasma consoles are a whole lot cheaper then the antiproton equivalent. It is also harder to get mk xii ap dhcs where the plasma is also easier to obtain.
PvP is a different story due to higher plasma resistances due to borg based gear. It is hard to say if the plasma boost offsets the resistances. that requires more testing. These resistances npcs do not have.
The passive crit that ap has over the plasma proc does not matter to me because my global crit from the romulan boffs more then make up for that shortage.
The questions is do you pvp or pve. pve plasma is definitely preferred.
Edit: also the hyper plasma torp is useless in a PvP against a FAW Cruiser.
Thanks for taking the time to read. I've tried to keep things on track and factual as possible, as there is so much disinformation spread in chat channels. Not intentionally, but some people just assume and the info gets spread and hurts others. With this thread, any newb can atleast get setup to do STF's. If they just ask a few questions and do a few on normal to pickup the rules, they're good to go. Perhaps I will post some of the STF cardinal rules for each of them such as the 10-15% rule for infected.
P.S. As far as your placement of the word "sage". I don't think I've heard that word use outside of the use as a spice in some time. Well played sir.
The Positron deflectors standard stats give a bonus to shield cap, regen and structural integrity, however the addition of the [SIF] and [Shds] and/or [Em] bonuses only increases it. I can't find a reason not to as there's not many other bonuses that help an escort with the exception of drain resistance and knock/repel resistance to a lesser extent.
Cool. For what it is worth, I once considered making a tactical officers handbook with specific builds for different roles and feature different specialized variants as well as weapon damage and armor tables with various set comparisons. Sort of a one-stop shop for old and new tac players alike. Moreover I thought it would be nice to add screenshots and some other nice "pro" things all with a distinctive ST flavor much like SpiderMike's Ship images but sadly I've never gotten around to doing so. It would sure be nice to see someone make it happen. Once all the raw data is organized then it would simply be a matter of layout and graphics. I was even considering adding a combat tactics section as well with race specific load-outs and attack pattern movements as well as team variant versions but I digress....
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
I would LOVE to see this happen, getting good solid advice from pro's is the best way to enjoy the game and help out team mates.
Well the best tanking build is an Eng in a sci vessel. There are also 3 skill tree items if you want to tank starship Hull plating, Starship armor reinforcement and starship threat control they all add to your passive resistances. I will use one of my builds again as an example.
Basic resistance (With 1 Neutronium Alloy, Starship Hull plating 9, Starship armor reinforcement 3 and starship threat control 9)
Resistances With aux2sif2
Polarize Hull
Hazzard emitters 2
Or all of them but with diminishing returns
The other option is speed tanking by boosting your bonus defence usually with a hyper eng. There are abilities like evasive manuvers That also boost this number as well.
This ship is also a heal boat with development lab scientists and also looking at my regen rate with a nurse doff as well. This build has not done any reputation and has no embassy gear and is therefore not complete.
The problem with focusing on durability is that you have almost no dps to draw agro even with treat control. The nice thing about transphasics is that you get to do more hull damage initially until the shield facing on a cube or donatra drops giving you a bit of priority.
Speed tanking is also hard to do unless you are broad siding in an stf because the targets barely move.
This level of tanking and healing is also not possible on an escort which is completely off track for this thread which is why it has not been mentioned as its focus is on stf's, escorts and damage. this build is more of a pvp healer or a no-win-scenario crowd control freighter healer. Spec'ing is also very different once catered to the direction you are on.
As far as an escort is concerned for not blowing up that is why I use -th embassy consoles and choose crf over csv. When focusing on 1 target at a time you will usually only draw the agro of 1 target. NPCs usually only use focus fire abilities and the last thing you want is 6 spheres shooting at you. It also allows cruisers with FAW to do their tanking job by having more agro. Most escorts can not survive a mob firing on it.
The only other thing to remember is that these ships have firing ranges and if you are 9.97 km away from the gate it cant shoot you. Also the weapons fire follows the same path in both direction. If I am at a stand still My hyper plasma torp will travel on the same path as the borg hyt and they will collide with each other every time (Assuming the borg cube is not moving like in infected or the cure, tac cube move so slow it is like they arnt moving). Also if they collide right next to the cube the AoE from their hyt will do significant damage to the cube. Not only do I not get hit but it back fires on them.
I have focused on PvE mostly, but have been looking in to PvP here lately. Might look more into PvP once my fleet reaches Tier 4 shipyard (going to be slow, I feel like I have been doing most of the dilithium for the projects but thats a different story on it's own)
As for the Plasma I see what you mean by cheaper and with the added bonus from the Fleet Sci Cons it would add up alot more. Your Skill build that is posted in this thread, would that be Ideal for using plasma, if I decide to try it?
If wondering my Current Build - http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=mtdorinz_0
The BOFFs are kind of copied from robdmc Screenshots but with a couple tweeks while using the Mobius Destroyer. (No Romulan BOFF's still 1d, 17h till I can get them in fleet)
The AP DHCs and Turrets are all [Borg]
The Sci Consoles are the Fleet Emitter Array Mk X [ShH] [-Th]
Overall survivability I personally feel is a bit better than with my Fleet Patrol Escort, I am accounting that to the LtC Science BOFF.
I also have a Fleet Patrol Escort, Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort Carrier, Blockade Escort. I can get a Fleet Tactical Escort at anytime, but have some time till the Fleet Advanced Escort becomes available in my Fleet.
I would use human boffs in the mean time. the extra hull regen rate is nice.
The rest of you build is ok. most of the tweaks in your build are more personal preference. Plasmas only advantage is cost and embassy Consoles. The Zero Point Energy Conduit works well with the Romulan Hyper-Plasma Torpedo Launcher. I assume you are still waiting for it in the rep system. In the mean time the ap weapons you have are fine. With the investment you already made the real question is are you going to keep building your ap or is it too much and worth switching over and rebuilding. (I know I built mine one peace at a time starting with borg weapons as well) Both options are legit at the moment. Keep in mind that plasma is only the biggest weapon at the moment and as they expand the game the other will probably get more perks. Plasma was first. who knows maybe we will get a sci ap console in a future fleet holding,
Yeah, I have 3 Human and 2 Saurian boffs, the hull regen is great when I end up with aggro to much.
Which tweeks would you make to the build I have? I just wondering, I like to keep an open mind for things of this nature.
As for the Romulan Hyper-Plasma Torpedo Launcher, Tier 3 finishes today so not to much longer.
As for the change to Plasma, it's not like I don't have ships to spare or Boffs to spare to play around with it. Just the start up cost which isn't too bad since I can still sell lockbox ships I have in my bank (and not the mirror universe ones, lol).