If you're setting up your weapons to fire fore, then you put turrets in the back. Turrets are affected by Cannon skills, so you end up only affecting half your weapons (beams or cannons).
A Beam Turret would help a lot. Better beam abilities would be nice too.
If you're setting up your weapons to fire fore, then you put turrets in the back. Turrets are affected by Cannon skills, so you end up only affecting half your weapons (beams or cannons).
A Beam Turret would help a lot. Better beam abilities would be nice too.
Except... if DPS is the concern it makes little difference. BO only affects one beam anyway. The limitation you describe only applies to FAW, and even then the detrimental effects are minimal.
Well I tried really really hard to stay away from this thread but I have to put my 2 cents in lol.
Beams are for ranged attacks, Cannons are for close combat.
(Beams at close range do next to no dps) and the same can be said for Cannons at a distance.
The OP started this thread winging about beams in close combat, (main reason I didn't won't to post because the whole beams vs cannons often ends up as a flame fest).
I have ships with beams and they all stay over 5km from the target any closer and I loose to much dps only time I do get close if I'm chasing a team mate to heal them lol.
I also have ships with cannons that attack up close and personal and stay less than 5km to target if I get to far away from the target my cannons do minimal dps.
Don't believe me test it out for your selves, jump in your ship and start an attack run on a single target 10km away if your using cannons watch how your dps increases as you get closer and the (opposite can be said for beams watch how your dps drops as you get closer).
Quoted again just to show you I did read it, and some things are correct, some things are wrong.
The sections I added parenthesis around are wrong. All energy weapons do more damage in close range. There's a nice chart I found once that shows the average damage of each weapon type at various ranges. No idea where i found it, but its out there.
1) Procs on DHCs are not more powerful. They're 100% the same. Correct
2) DHCs receive the exact same bonuses from a given boff ability as every other cannon type Incorrect DHC's enjoy a greater ROF increase from CRF abilites.
3) What makes DHCs better is not some crazy base damage superiority, but their power efficiency. Solve the drain problem for DCs, single cannons and beams, and they'll be just
as good as DHCs. Incorrectany build or ship that didn't use DHC's doesn't have power issues. DHC's are good because the crazy base damage per shot plays VERY well with BOFF abilites like...CRF. Something you fail to recognize.
4) If you really think FaW only affects one beam array, you've got serious issues. Incorrect.
Get your facts straight before you waltz in and start spewing. Or are you going to say it was a typo or something? Looks like you gotz issues bub. The other guy just made an mistake.
Get your facts straight before you waltz in and start spewing. Or are you going to say it was a typo or something? Looks like you gotz issues bub. The other guy just made an mistake.
I don't know much about the difference between DC and DHC, to be honest, so I'm not going to try commenting on that. But I can tell you, FaW does affect all beams on your ship - otherwise no one would use them to attack multiple targets. :P
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I don't know much about the difference between DC and DHC, to be honest
I noticed somebody was using a mix of dual cannons and dual heavy cannons, in a combat I recently logged. The absolute magnitude of his damage isn't very impressive, but the fact that he was running both weapon types side by side makes it a valid relative comparison.
Over the course of the entire mission, the numbers break down as:
Standard damage per second per weapon:
DC 232
DHC 233
Damage per second with Scatter 1
DC 190
DHC 206
Damage per second with Scatter 3
DC 360
DHC 396
So, it does appear that dual heavy cannons benefit somewhat more from Scatter Volley at the least.
Except... if DPS is the concern it makes little difference. BO only affects one beam anyway. The limitation you describe only applies to FAW, and even then the detrimental effects are minimal.
I think I failed to properly explain my point.
Most ships either turn fast enough to use their fore arc, or turn too slowly and thus use broadsides.
If you're firing fore, then you have turrets aft, otherwise you'd be splitting your weapons. It's all weapons firing broadsides, or all weapons firing fore.
If you're firing forwards and have turrets aft, you may as well run cannons (DHC, DC, or even just plain cannons) because then you can use CSV/CRF and have it affect all your weapons.
Therefore, most ships that are fast enough to fire forward use cannons, and ships that can't won't be able to use DBBs anyway.
I think DBBs tend to be carried for Beam Overload. My Vesta had no cannon abilities so I carried a DBB. The greater arc and reduced damage drop-off was handy, and it allowed me to use the innate Target Subsystem abilities in addition to Beam Overload.
All weapons are suppossed to get 100% possible damage at close range.
which is 2km for cannons and 1km for beams, I believe.
Oddly though if you are hugging a foe at 0-1km with cannons they often do not. The 2km may be the point of cut-off for them.
That could be a good starting point to make beams and cannons balanced.
Imagine if:
Beams did full damage out to 5km and it dropped off from 5km to 10km. Damage at 10km is still decent.
Cons: beams are not as power efficient:damage than cannons overall.
Pros: range of dropoff more than compensates for the con.
Cannons did full damage at 2km and under. Their damage drops off significantly from 2km to 5km and is near zero between 5 and 10km.
Now this would make a ton of sense as escorts do have the speed and turn rate to close in on a target (and they're supposed to!) to make attack runs.
I fly a cruiser in PvP. Several actually... and even dare to take my Galaxy-X into the fires of PvP. The thing to understand with Cruisers is you are never going to to as much damage as a fully spec'd Tactical ship. The whole purpose of a Cruiser especially in PvP is heals, help with spam, and to provide damage support.
The one thing I've learned especially from flying a Galaxy-X is that everyone wants to kill you. It's not because i'm a Cruiser, but because i'm in a Galaxy-X! If you really want to learn how to survive the Escort DPS fly one of those into PvP. The whole idea in PvP is to make it so they can't kill you, not to defeat them, because unless you get really lucky it won't happen. I've had as many as 3 full escorts on my butt and just kept healing myself and laughing, because all the while, the other people in my team are killing off their team while they spend time trying to down me. PvP is all about teamwork, and without it anyone is going to die.
To be honest if you are in an Escort all you are doing in PvP is finding the squishy targets. The ones you can down fast to get points and win the match. Cruisers shouldn't be very high on their list, and typically you see them going after Escorts and Sci ships more, but if your Cruiser isn't set up right, you get to make the top of the list, like most Galaxy-X captains end up.
I highly suggest the Hilbert Guide for some pretty basic information. Mind you it will require some tweaking, but after you will be a much better captain all around, in PvP and PvE. Look in the PvP sections of the STO forums. There's an abundance of good information there.
That could be a good starting point to make beams and cannons balanced.
Imagine if:
Beams did full damage out to 5km and it dropped off from 5km to 10km. Damage at 10km is still decent.
Cons: beams are not as power efficient:damage than cannons overall.
Pros: range of dropoff more than compensates for the con.
Cannons did full damage at 2km and under. Their damage drops off significantly from 2km to 5km and is near zero between 5 and 10km.
Now this would make a ton of sense as escorts do have the speed and turn rate to close in on a target (and they're supposed to!) to make attack runs.
That could be a good starting point to make beams and cannons balanced.
Imagine if:
Beams did full damage out to 5km and it dropped off from 5km to 10km. Damage at 10km is still decent.
Cons: beams are not as power efficient:damage than cannons overall.
Pros: range of dropoff more than compensates for the con.
Cannons did full damage at 2km and under. Their damage drops off significantly from 2km to 5km and is near zero between 5 and 10km.
Now this would make a ton of sense as escorts do have the speed and turn rate to close in on a target (and they're supposed to!) to make attack runs.
Unless something has changed this already close to the case. Cannons drop off much faster than beams so at 10k beams do aproximately 65% of thier base damage while cannons do aproximately 35% of thier base damage.
Cannons already have to be as close as possible to get maximum efffect. Which is why its good alpha strike policy with cannons to not strike until 2-3 km instead of 7-10km.
This drop rate is aproximately 8% per km past the 2km mark for cannons and 4% per km past the 1km mark for beams.
Would it not be easier to just make beams drop at a lower rate of 2% so at 10km they do 82% of thier base damage.
Cannons drop off much faster than beams so at 10k beams do aproximately 65% of thier base damage while cannons do aproximately 35% of thier base damage.
But it does not change the fact that the damage difference is still in favour of cannons outside of very small difference beyond 7km (I think) that favours beams. But difference is minimal. So below 3km cannons decisively overpower beams. Between 3-7km cannons either are more powerfull or just as powerfull as beams and beams become more powerfull above 7km. But the difference is minimal and does not correspond to the advantage cannons have below 3km.
So the dropdown in power between beams and cannons does not really matter.
Another solution is why limit cruisers to using less tac consoles than escorts? Cannons are already higher dps why limit a cruiser further by giving cruisers {fleet tier 5 cruiser is an exception} 1-3 lousy tac console slots? They should be just as well equipped in the console dept. as any escort. The only thing that should set them apart is the basics, not console dmg capability. You give ships a very poor representation on this game!!! Instead of star trek, you should have called it cryptic's way trek!!!
Love how most of these turn into cannons vs beams arguments.
Makes sense, but still amusing. It all comes down to the simple fact that cannons were designed to large amounts of burst damage from up close, and beams were designed to be backline support weapons. It's just a shame that you can close distance so quickly on a target that the damage drop-off almost becomes a null point.
Just ask any escort pilot. I fly one, and I know for a fact I can close from 10km to 3km in 2 seconds or less, therefore eliminating any advantage beams may have had over cannons. And as a cruiser, I can't open distance between myself and an escort easily, if at all.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Also - I can sit with my Patrol Escort with white Mk XI DHCs at 10km and still outDPS a cruiser with purple Mk XI or higher beams just because cannons are that much more powerfull and the boost from CRF and even CSV plus is something unreachable for cruisers.
So my escort outDPV (ok) and outDPS (not ok) cruisers at any range.
I agree.. I now have a mirror escort, out fitted with mostly cannons ( and a qunt) and it can deal WAY more damage than my assult cruiser even if I got side ways and fire all 8 with everything I got to weopons :S its not far behined but its noticeable
That there is a problem, you shouldn't be able to sit at 10k and out dps a beam cruiser with cannons in a escort, the damage loss should be too great. The real issue is that in theory, unbuffed damage of a beam ship or cannon ship is pretty equal, in practice the beams suffer so greatly from energy drain they are lucky to do half the damage.
After all this new patches and new seasons, beams are still a worthless form of firepower. It doens't matter if you are in PVP or PVE, you only deal minimal damage in comparison to cannons, or torpedos. Its useless against players now because they can heal faster than you can deal damage. Its the opposite affect with the cannons. They deal damage faster than you can heal. With that type of imbalance, it makes most of the ships on the Fed side oppsolete in comparison to KDF and cruisers lacking extra weapon slots, Tac BOFF slots, or cannons oppsolete in comparison to escorts. As a cruiser in a PVP match, all you can do is heal. You can't go 1 on 1 with an escort because he will mop the floor with you. He can deal damage to you with his rappid cannon fire faster than you can heal yourself, yet you can barely scratch his hull with your inefficient beams because cryptic has made things to where escorts can heal themselves just as fast as cruisers. If you are lucky to get his shield down he can turn and burn, leaving you in the dust because his engines are way more powerful than yours. If your ship don't have the higher than LT Tac Boff slots, cannons, carries fighters, or have more than two weapons consoles, then you are just going to be another target magnet for those carriers cannons.
i use 4 beams and 4 torps along with assimilated tractor beam, disable shield systems and a tractor doff. i have no problems with taking out shields and destroying most enemies in seconds.yes dps is what you want my beams do 1100 damage with 650 dps after skills and gear
Love how most of these turn into cannons vs beams arguments.
I think its actually kinda sad. I can't help but feel most of these are simply cruiser pilots wanting to do more damage. And yet... when you tell them exactly how they can alter their build to trade in tankyness for DPS they almost always backtrack.
Its even worse when you hear so many lamenting how shaving off a few extra energy cost off their weapons would "make it all alright". Wether its a needed change or not its clear a lot of people are incorrectly thinking that implementing such a change will make their cruisers death machines. That's so wrong its not even funny. Its more of the same really, they don't understand that any significant changes in their DPS potential has to be accompanied by a similar change in their build and playstyle.
I think its actually kinda sad. I can't help but feel most of these are simply cruiser pilots wanting to do more damage. And yet... when you tell them exactly how they can alter their build to trade in tankyness for DPS they almost always backtrack.
Its even worse when you hear so many lamenting how shaving off a few extra energy cost off their weapons would "make it all alright". Wether its a needed change or not its clear a lot of people are incorrectly thinking that implementing such a change will make their cruisers death machines. That's so wrong its not even funny. Its more of the same really, they don't understand that any significant changes in their DPS potential has to be accompanied by a similar change in their build and playstyle.
You just changed a cannon vs beam post into a cruiser vs escort post. Keep it beam vs cannons, a beam escort and a cannon escort completely unbuffed has a massive difference in damage potential, the weapon should be balanced, the tactical nature of the ship should be the difference.
I primarily run a tac escort, but I have a tanky eng cruiser. Doing combat log parsing reveals the real issues between the two. You have to go into the details, not the overall dps, most people have no clue how to use a combat log.
I think its actually kinda sad. I can't help but feel most of these are simply cruiser pilots wanting to do more damage. And yet... when you tell them exactly how they can alter their build to trade in tankyness for DPS they almost always backtrack.
Its even worse when you hear so many lamenting how shaving off a few extra energy cost off their weapons would "make it all alright". Wether its a needed change or not its clear a lot of people are incorrectly thinking that implementing such a change will make their cruisers death machines. That's so wrong its not even funny. Its more of the same really, they don't understand that any significant changes in their DPS potential has to be accompanied by a similar change in their build and playstyle.
It might be that "most of these are simply cruiser pilots wanting to do more damage" is true as cruiser pilots mostly use beams.
A lot of posts that I have read in regards to doing more DPS with someone's cruiser was usually along the lines of either "get an escort" or "use (single) cannons.' While that is true to increase DPS, it does not solve the main issue... beams need some work.
As it stands, most builds for beam boats do not do what is considered respectable damage by most. That's not to say it is not possible to do so, it takes a good amount of fine tuning to get it right; and even then a little more work to the build can always squeeze out a little more DPS.
There have been several references to cannons in this posting. Whenever I read cannons, I do not think of DHCs or DCs... just cannons; so please be specific on type to avoid confusion.
And I do perform respectable DPS with my cruisers (a D'kora and a Regent)... and I am still working on them. The one I am working on with the Regent is simply because someone said it couldn't be done... and I am nearly there.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
You just changed a cannon vs beam post into a cruiser vs escort post.
That's because Beams vs. Cannons posts really boil down to cruisers vs. escorts. If not as an original intent by the OP, then definitely by most of the posters. I won't disagree that beams may in fact need a rework; but by and large, most of those clamoring for such a change believe it will be a huge DPS gain for beams, and by extension for cruisers.
The changes most often talked about will not be such game changers. They could reduce the energy cost of firing a beam array by 2 this very moment and its impact would not even be felt by most of the cruiser playerbase.
What would be felt immediately by everyone though? A turn buff to fed cruisers (AKA: Space Whales) !! Lets try to push for that instead.
But it does not change the fact that the damage difference is still in favour of cannons outside of very small difference beyond 7km (I think) that favours beams. But difference is minimal. So below 3km cannons decisively overpower beams. Between 3-7km cannons either are more powerfull or just as powerfull as beams and beams become more powerfull above 7km. But the difference is minimal and does not correspond to the advantage cannons have below 3km.
So the dropdown in power between beams and cannons does not really matter.
Only the BOff abilities avialible to buff cannons make the difference seem negliable.
Cannons drop in damage much worse than beams outside of 2km, period. The BOff abilities of CRF/CSV plus Tac Captain abilities make up for that drop off.
Beams are better at close range and extreme range but lack similiar BOff style buffs to make up for thier drop off. This is why I push for a beam version of CRF
Take a Escort into a test mission and fire at 10km without any Buffs and see for yourself.
Do the same with beams and note the results. Beams should do more damage at range.
Then do it with Buffs for both and note the results.
Also - I can sit with my Patrol Escort with white Mk XI DHCs at 10km and still outDPS a cruiser with purple Mk XI or higher beams just because cannons are that much more powerfull and the boost from CRF and even CSV plus is something unreachable for cruisers.
So my escort outDPV (ok) and outDPS (not ok) cruisers at any range.
In one shot? Doubtful if not out right wrong.
The drain of beam will scuttle thier damage at any range under a constant fire scenario. Thats most likely why you would see better damage from whites over purples at 10km.
Try it agai on a single shot basis and stell us what you find.
Unless something has changed this already close to the case. Cannons drop off much faster than beams so at 10k beams do aproximately 65% of thier base damage while cannons do aproximately 35% of thier base damage.
The difference is that both beams and cannons are most effective at close ranges, at 1 km and 2 km respectively.
Both beam and cannon users are thus encouraged to get closer - but because base damage is so low on beams compared to cannons, they actually have stronger encouragement to get up close.
If beams had no drop off up to 5 km, then suddenly their ideal range is 5 km, and it really does become a "beams distance", "cannons higher damage but closer" issue. As it currently stands, all weapons are encouraged to be used up close.
(I'm not in a cruiser by the way, my last experience with beams was a single Phaser DBB in my Vesta for Subsystem Targeting and Overload, and the Experimental Romulan Plasma Beam Array in my JHEC for the Hyperflux and Overload. Improving beams won't really change anything for me other than improving STF PUGs.)
You just changed a cannon vs beam post into a cruiser vs escort post.
Because they always inadvertently become these. Period. Every single thread that has tried to comment on beams (even those like one I made about ONLY beams) very soon turned into beams vs cannons (despite efforts by multiple posters), which soon became beamcruisers vs cannonscorts, which turned into cruisers vs escorts, and then the usual forum war that follows.
It's simply because you cannot have one without causing the other. It's the nature of the current game to have that happen. Cruisers will feel sluggish and gimped compared to the superscorts you see zooming around. Escorts will always feel that they deserve the top spot. And so on and so forth. End result: constant useless bickering.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Comments
If you're setting up your weapons to fire fore, then you put turrets in the back. Turrets are affected by Cannon skills, so you end up only affecting half your weapons (beams or cannons).
A Beam Turret would help a lot. Better beam abilities would be nice too.
Except... if DPS is the concern it makes little difference. BO only affects one beam anyway. The limitation you describe only applies to FAW, and even then the detrimental effects are minimal.
Don't suppose you wanna show me a screenshot of you close to the target using beams with your combat report open and expanded do you?
I don't mean to be rude but did you actually read what I said?
Um thats what I said why are you disagreeing with me?
So now your disagreeing with yourself as well lol.
All weapons are suppossed to get 100% possible damage at close range.
which is 2km for cannons and 1km for beams, I believe.
Oddly though if you are hugging a foe at 0-1km with cannons they often do not. The 2km may be the point of cut-off for them.
R.I.P
Quoted again just to show you I did read it, and some things are correct, some things are wrong.
The sections I added parenthesis around are wrong. All energy weapons do more damage in close range. There's a nice chart I found once that shows the average damage of each weapon type at various ranges. No idea where i found it, but its out there.
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Get your facts straight before you waltz in and start spewing. Or are you going to say it was a typo or something? Looks like you gotz issues bub. The other guy just made an mistake.
I don't know much about the difference between DC and DHC, to be honest, so I'm not going to try commenting on that. But I can tell you, FaW does affect all beams on your ship - otherwise no one would use them to attack multiple targets. :P
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I noticed somebody was using a mix of dual cannons and dual heavy cannons, in a combat I recently logged. The absolute magnitude of his damage isn't very impressive, but the fact that he was running both weapon types side by side makes it a valid relative comparison.
Over the course of the entire mission, the numbers break down as:
Standard damage per second per weapon:
DC 232
DHC 233
Damage per second with Scatter 1
DC 190
DHC 206
Damage per second with Scatter 3
DC 360
DHC 396
So, it does appear that dual heavy cannons benefit somewhat more from Scatter Volley at the least.
HCs fire two shots. Three HCs equipped by themselves would fire at 125, 115, and four shots at 105 power.
Not much of a difference until you add in 3x Turrets and the HCs are firing three shots at 81 power.
Most ships either turn fast enough to use their fore arc, or turn too slowly and thus use broadsides.
If you're firing fore, then you have turrets aft, otherwise you'd be splitting your weapons. It's all weapons firing broadsides, or all weapons firing fore.
If you're firing forwards and have turrets aft, you may as well run cannons (DHC, DC, or even just plain cannons) because then you can use CSV/CRF and have it affect all your weapons.
Therefore, most ships that are fast enough to fire forward use cannons, and ships that can't won't be able to use DBBs anyway.
I think DBBs tend to be carried for Beam Overload. My Vesta had no cannon abilities so I carried a DBB. The greater arc and reduced damage drop-off was handy, and it allowed me to use the innate Target Subsystem abilities in addition to Beam Overload.
That could be a good starting point to make beams and cannons balanced.
Imagine if:
Beams did full damage out to 5km and it dropped off from 5km to 10km. Damage at 10km is still decent.
Cons: beams are not as power efficient:damage than cannons overall.
Pros: range of dropoff more than compensates for the con.
Cannons did full damage at 2km and under. Their damage drops off significantly from 2km to 5km and is near zero between 5 and 10km.
Now this would make a ton of sense as escorts do have the speed and turn rate to close in on a target (and they're supposed to!) to make attack runs.
I fly a cruiser in PvP. Several actually... and even dare to take my Galaxy-X into the fires of PvP. The thing to understand with Cruisers is you are never going to to as much damage as a fully spec'd Tactical ship. The whole purpose of a Cruiser especially in PvP is heals, help with spam, and to provide damage support.
The one thing I've learned especially from flying a Galaxy-X is that everyone wants to kill you. It's not because i'm a Cruiser, but because i'm in a Galaxy-X! If you really want to learn how to survive the Escort DPS fly one of those into PvP. The whole idea in PvP is to make it so they can't kill you, not to defeat them, because unless you get really lucky it won't happen. I've had as many as 3 full escorts on my butt and just kept healing myself and laughing, because all the while, the other people in my team are killing off their team while they spend time trying to down me. PvP is all about teamwork, and without it anyone is going to die.
To be honest if you are in an Escort all you are doing in PvP is finding the squishy targets. The ones you can down fast to get points and win the match. Cruisers shouldn't be very high on their list, and typically you see them going after Escorts and Sci ships more, but if your Cruiser isn't set up right, you get to make the top of the list, like most Galaxy-X captains end up.
I highly suggest the Hilbert Guide for some pretty basic information. Mind you it will require some tweaking, but after you will be a much better captain all around, in PvP and PvE. Look in the PvP sections of the STO forums. There's an abundance of good information there.
Cannons already have to be as close as possible to get maximum efffect. Which is why its good alpha strike policy with cannons to not strike until 2-3 km instead of 7-10km.
This drop rate is aproximately 8% per km past the 2km mark for cannons and 4% per km past the 1km mark for beams.
Would it not be easier to just make beams drop at a lower rate of 2% so at 10km they do 82% of thier base damage.
R.I.P
But it does not change the fact that the damage difference is still in favour of cannons outside of very small difference beyond 7km (I think) that favours beams. But difference is minimal. So below 3km cannons decisively overpower beams. Between 3-7km cannons either are more powerfull or just as powerfull as beams and beams become more powerfull above 7km. But the difference is minimal and does not correspond to the advantage cannons have below 3km.
So the dropdown in power between beams and cannons does not really matter.
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Makes sense, but still amusing. It all comes down to the simple fact that cannons were designed to large amounts of burst damage from up close, and beams were designed to be backline support weapons. It's just a shame that you can close distance so quickly on a target that the damage drop-off almost becomes a null point.
Just ask any escort pilot. I fly one, and I know for a fact I can close from 10km to 3km in 2 seconds or less, therefore eliminating any advantage beams may have had over cannons. And as a cruiser, I can't open distance between myself and an escort easily, if at all.
Also - I can sit with my Patrol Escort with white Mk XI DHCs at 10km and still outDPS a cruiser with purple Mk XI or higher beams just because cannons are that much more powerfull and the boost from CRF and even CSV plus is something unreachable for cruisers.
So my escort outDPV (ok) and outDPS (not ok) cruisers at any range.
Dual beam banks are a bit more barable.
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i use 4 beams and 4 torps along with assimilated tractor beam, disable shield systems and a tractor doff. i have no problems with taking out shields and destroying most enemies in seconds.yes dps is what you want my beams do 1100 damage with 650 dps after skills and gear
I think its actually kinda sad. I can't help but feel most of these are simply cruiser pilots wanting to do more damage. And yet... when you tell them exactly how they can alter their build to trade in tankyness for DPS they almost always backtrack.
Its even worse when you hear so many lamenting how shaving off a few extra energy cost off their weapons would "make it all alright". Wether its a needed change or not its clear a lot of people are incorrectly thinking that implementing such a change will make their cruisers death machines. That's so wrong its not even funny. Its more of the same really, they don't understand that any significant changes in their DPS potential has to be accompanied by a similar change in their build and playstyle.
You just changed a cannon vs beam post into a cruiser vs escort post. Keep it beam vs cannons, a beam escort and a cannon escort completely unbuffed has a massive difference in damage potential, the weapon should be balanced, the tactical nature of the ship should be the difference.
I primarily run a tac escort, but I have a tanky eng cruiser. Doing combat log parsing reveals the real issues between the two. You have to go into the details, not the overall dps, most people have no clue how to use a combat log.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
It might be that "most of these are simply cruiser pilots wanting to do more damage" is true as cruiser pilots mostly use beams.
A lot of posts that I have read in regards to doing more DPS with someone's cruiser was usually along the lines of either "get an escort" or "use (single) cannons.' While that is true to increase DPS, it does not solve the main issue... beams need some work.
As it stands, most builds for beam boats do not do what is considered respectable damage by most. That's not to say it is not possible to do so, it takes a good amount of fine tuning to get it right; and even then a little more work to the build can always squeeze out a little more DPS.
There have been several references to cannons in this posting. Whenever I read cannons, I do not think of DHCs or DCs... just cannons; so please be specific on type to avoid confusion.
And I do perform respectable DPS with my cruisers (a D'kora and a Regent)... and I am still working on them. The one I am working on with the Regent is simply because someone said it couldn't be done... and I am nearly there.
That's because Beams vs. Cannons posts really boil down to cruisers vs. escorts. If not as an original intent by the OP, then definitely by most of the posters. I won't disagree that beams may in fact need a rework; but by and large, most of those clamoring for such a change believe it will be a huge DPS gain for beams, and by extension for cruisers.
The changes most often talked about will not be such game changers. They could reduce the energy cost of firing a beam array by 2 this very moment and its impact would not even be felt by most of the cruiser playerbase.
What would be felt immediately by everyone though? A turn buff to fed cruisers (AKA: Space Whales) !! Lets try to push for that instead.
Only the BOff abilities avialible to buff cannons make the difference seem negliable.
Cannons drop in damage much worse than beams outside of 2km, period. The BOff abilities of CRF/CSV plus Tac Captain abilities make up for that drop off.
Beams are better at close range and extreme range but lack similiar BOff style buffs to make up for thier drop off. This is why I push for a beam version of CRF
Take a Escort into a test mission and fire at 10km without any Buffs and see for yourself.
Do the same with beams and note the results. Beams should do more damage at range.
Then do it with Buffs for both and note the results.
R.I.P
In one shot? Doubtful if not out right wrong.
The drain of beam will scuttle thier damage at any range under a constant fire scenario. Thats most likely why you would see better damage from whites over purples at 10km.
Try it agai on a single shot basis and stell us what you find.
R.I.P
The difference is that both beams and cannons are most effective at close ranges, at 1 km and 2 km respectively.
Both beam and cannon users are thus encouraged to get closer - but because base damage is so low on beams compared to cannons, they actually have stronger encouragement to get up close.
If beams had no drop off up to 5 km, then suddenly their ideal range is 5 km, and it really does become a "beams distance", "cannons higher damage but closer" issue. As it currently stands, all weapons are encouraged to be used up close.
(I'm not in a cruiser by the way, my last experience with beams was a single Phaser DBB in my Vesta for Subsystem Targeting and Overload, and the Experimental Romulan Plasma Beam Array in my JHEC for the Hyperflux and Overload. Improving beams won't really change anything for me other than improving STF PUGs.)
Because they always inadvertently become these. Period. Every single thread that has tried to comment on beams (even those like one I made about ONLY beams) very soon turned into beams vs cannons (despite efforts by multiple posters), which soon became beamcruisers vs cannonscorts, which turned into cruisers vs escorts, and then the usual forum war that follows.
It's simply because you cannot have one without causing the other. It's the nature of the current game to have that happen. Cruisers will feel sluggish and gimped compared to the superscorts you see zooming around. Escorts will always feel that they deserve the top spot. And so on and so forth. End result: constant useless bickering.