What was the overall experience of all players involved relating to piloting those specific vessels and battling the specific vessels in question?
I'd say the Jemmy pilot was expert, the Excelsior captain (myself) I would say above average and the Odyssey pilot is competent (I have pvped him previously and he can handle himself)
I run 99% uptime on EPtW and EPtS and once the escort had his up he was untouchable with both cruisers on him ontop of this my Excelsior has 14k per facing shield and high uptime on tactical team yet he managed to force me to use RSP and within a few seconds of that going down I was dead, the Oddy didn't last much longer
Basically you want a -now comes a german expression- "eierlegende Wollmilchsau", which is basically a combination of hen, cow,pig and sheep, giving milk and wool, laying eggs, as well as giving huge amounts of meet.
Here you just want a imba ship, capable of tanking as hell and firing like theres no tomorrow. Thats just imbalanced. A cruiser can tank two escorts, a escorts cant do that. With your suggestion a tank could not only tank two escorts, but also destroy them. That is ridiculous! Cruiser are not meant to be the damage dealers. But with the right build you can. Not as much as escorts, but than again, you have a way better defence.
I do have several "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" already.
First up is my Steamrunner, this thing tanks like a beast and puts out more DPS than any cruiser is capable of thanks to her always on EPTS 1, combined with a RSP for when things get hectic plus a hazard emitter for kicks and while normally I would pack an Aux2Strut there be no point so its DEM1 instead.
Following quickly behind is my Defiant which while it is the least tanky of my escorts by virtue of her tac captain and silly STF design puts out stupid high amounts of damage while still be able to tank a tac cube for between one and two minutes. Did I mention it packs APB3 and nearly doubles my entire teams damage output too? Yeah it does. Can't wait till I get the fleet version.
In closing we have the wonderful Fleet Patrol Escort (currently retired for steamrunner) and while common sense would say it is tanky by virtue of her always on EPTS1 that would be a lie. For you see it has an engineer captain and uses beams because I like variety so it has to have a pair of EPTW1s and an Aux2Strut. Thanks in part to the engineer captain, but moreso to her stupid silly defense rating (aegis engines FTW!) a huge number of attacks miss reducing the need to carry a ton of healing. Sadly though her DPS was at 'cruiser level' and had to be retired because even with 150+ weapon power, 4 tac consoles, and a good ole Nadion Inversion every 3 minutes she had a hard time breaking the 6k dps barrier in ESTFs which was unacceptable.
That doesn't even count my MVAE that CCed and energy drained like a boss while pumping out standard DHC punishment, the Fleet VorCha that is an escort in reality with 8 weapon slots, nor my shiney timeship that hasn't been flown for awhile.
Now would they perform well in PvP? Doubtful although I have 1v1ed with the FPE and did fine and have considered grabbing subnuke doffs for her just for the lols. But in PvE? I could 2 man an ESTF and get optional.
Pretty sure your average escort sustain when built that way, like an STF build for example, does exceed the average cruiser pair DPS potential. Possibly a pair of tac focused cruisers could break its tank but doubtful a single one could.
But that is meaningless as PvP is decided by teams not individuals which is why hyper-specialization is much more important when partaking in it whereas PvE, at least when PuGing, requires a player to be a bit more well rounded as they may not have a healer next to them. Or anyone in the team dealing over 1k DPS either. Therefor the ship that can keep itself alive while putting out the maximum amount of damage is ideal.
This is the PvE 'age of escort' no matter how many try to say it is not. Granted the new gear may change that atleast if you like using plasma beam arrays time will tell.
And I've seen escorts tank multiple cruisers AND destroy them, if it's balanced for an escort to do that to cruisers then it's balanced for a cruiser to do the same to escorts.
That is possible. Did it myself in an escort. Its quite easy when the enemy only uses RSF with its 2min CD as the only defensive measure. No TT, no EptS, nothing.Off course you can slice the cruiser in two with such an useless setup. Its a player error, because cruisers can tank like they were solid neutronium - with the proper setup.
Unfortunately, there are enough pilots out there who are unable to take a single nanite sphere on. And thats not because they have the wrong ship
I'd say the Jemmy pilot was expert, the Excelsior captain (myself) I would say above average and the Odyssey pilot is competent (I have pvped him previously and he can handle himself)
I run 99% uptime on EPtW and EPtS and once the escort had his up he was untouchable with both cruisers on him ontop of this my Excelsior has 14k per facing shield and 50% and high uptime on tactical team yet he managed to force me to use RSP and within a few seconds of that going down I was dead, the Oddy didn't last much longer
Barring uncontrollable external influences such as technical problems or a severe mismatch in terms of equipment or bodies/ships, the most experienced player is generally victorious. Whether the previous conditions are present or the battle roughly equal, most engagements are decided by a fatal mistake at an inopportune time by either party. More experienced players make less of those mistakes.
Did you make a fatal mistake? Possibly. Were you simply outclassed? Probably. Not all engagements can be won but every engagement can be lost.
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So you want near DHC damage AND wide firing arcs of beams? Yeah thats balanced.
The harder the punch the narrower the FA.
Those DHCs still have be aimed. Its one of the prices for using them.
A 60' FA is blessing compared to 45, even on cruiser.
How about make DBB 135' and HBA 90'? Most cruisers cant maintain full frontal arc with a faster target. I can with my Excel', but I have ben know to run four rcs mkxii and have a turn rate of 24.4 when I go dbb.
How about make DBB 135' and HBA 90'? Most cruisers cant maintain full frontal arc with a faster target. I can with my Excel', but I have ben know to run four rcs mkxii and have a turn rate of 24.4 when I go dbb.
Most cruisers weren't designed to maintain full frontal arc on ANY target.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Most cruisers weren't designed to maintain full frontal arc on ANY target.
I agree, but introducing a weapon for cruiser with a 60' arc makes even less sense, its not like cruisers have port/starboard mounted weapons in STO. A 60' arc would be pretty much worthless for cruisers. 90' is tenable for some cruisers, but still tough for others (unless you sit at 10km).
Did you make a fatal mistake? Possibly. Were you simply outclassed? Probably. Not all engagements can be won but every engagement can be lost.
Well I admit that my ship is built for ESTFs (Build here) but with the EPtS&W, Aux2SIF and TT on the spacebar with the weapons I can even drag a CMDR Excelsior through an ESTF successfully, chances are I was simply outclassed by a pvp build I even managed to stop him moving at 1 point and get a broadside on him at full power and even that barely scratched his shields.
Well I admit that my ship is built for ESTFs (Build here) but with the EPtS&W, Aux2SIF and TT on the spacebar with the weapons I can even drag a CMDR Excelsior through an ESTF successfully, chances are I was simply outclassed by a pvp build I even managed to stop him moving at 1 point and get a broadside on him at full power and even that barely scratched his shields.
only one TT and that on spacebar with two other healing skills? I see the window of opportunity for an veteran escort player.
Yeah which between the other skills at my disposal I can fill
Not if the buffed attack is rightly timed. Then the 3rd attack -or to be precise- the second attack after you used RSP hits a nice window. Of course, even with that scenario you might have a chance with ET1+HE1, but i doubt that will be enough -even with the latent resistence EptS grants- to hold against a nicely buffed bug Even TSS2 might not bolster your shields enough, and the HoT of it is dealt with the turrets alone.
You have a higher chance to survive with a manually triggered TT, giving you more defence cycles than you have now.
Of course, it could also be a matter of focus. Players really need to understand that Escorts destroy one target at a time while cruisers are masters of the furball. I take my engi cruiser to Starbase 24 all the time and assuming no disconnects or lag outs I usually come in first or second, a feat my escort could never hope to accomplish.
Heh, I always get first or second in SB24 on a scort using scatter and spread.
I fly both cruisers and escorts and the escort is just better. Granted a cruiser can park and spit while an escort has to constantly move. But escorts can tank gates and cubes just as well as a cruiser. And rips everything inferior to those apart fast enough tanking or healing is a moot point.
I have recently started playing around with an Aux2B cruiser build which does do more damage, but nothing in this game should be balanced around doff set ups.
Not if the buffed attack is rightly timed. Then the 3rd attack -or to be precise- the second attack after you used RSP hits a nice window. Of course, even with that scenario you might have a chance with ET1+HE1, but i doubt that will be enough -even with the latent resistence EptS grants- to hold against a nicely buffed bug Even TSS2 might not bolster your shields enough, and the HoT of it is dealt with the turrets alone.
You have a higher chance to survive with a manually triggered TT, giving you more defence cycles than you have now.
I don't think the complain is that the escort can blow up a cruiser. I think the complaint was that two cruisers couldn't even get past an escort's shields.
I don't think the complain is that the escort can blow up a cruiser. I think the complaint was that two cruisers couldn't even get past an escort's shields.
The problem here is where? Cruisers are not DD. Not if they want to be useful in PvP. PvP and PvE are two entirely different beasts. In PvP you are facing ships like the bug. That ship is designed to be insanely difficult to destroy. Of course two cruisers won't get past a well-specced bugs shields. Hell 3 or 4 probably couldn't. But you take a Fleet Defiant or another bug, and all of a sudden there will be death.
In all honesty, the only reason cruisers are viable damage dealers in PvE is because most enemy NPCs won't use TSS, EPtS, or TT. An experienced player will use all of those. And more. You were pitting a healer up against a damage dealer. The healer ALWAYS loses in that case. And two healers? Anyone who has played WoW, LoL, and other games like that will know you could take 10 healers against a single damage dealer class, especially one that's pretty tanky (Deathknight anyone?) and they will still lose. Badly.
That's just an example of what happened. Now how about this. Change that up to a 2v2. Two escorts vs a cruiser and an escort. I am willing to bet the cruiser and escort will win. Because if they focus the escort, the cruiser will be able to heal with impunity. And if they focus the cruiser, the cruiser just goes defensive and the escort shreds the other two. And if they go 1v1, then the cruiser just needs to throw half it's heals to the escort and keep all power to aux and shields, and stay alive. Then after it's escort has won, it's escort can come over and kill the enemy escort.
All experienced PvPers will tell you that what I just put out is usually what happens. Adam, sorry to say, your ship is built as a kirk ship. It's designed to fly solo in STFs and do alright as damage goes. It can also provide limited support to your team. But if you're going to PvP as a cruiser, you have to go complete support. As in pure healer/support damage. That's just how it is. Tbh, I am not surprised at all that you couldn't break a bug's shields. The Jemmie bug is one of the best PvP escorts in the game. It's designed to take everything and keep on coming. And if it has the jemmie set, you won't kill it. Not as a cruiser, since it will keep your power levels drained, and strip buffs from you all the time. You were out-gunned and out-classed. It happens.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Adam, sorry to say, your ship is built as a kirk ship. It's designed to fly solo in STFs and do alright as damage goes. It can also provide limited support to your team.
No, it's built to be self sufficient, the last time I built a support ship it fell flat on it's face
1) Cruiser damage output is low
2) In PvP its cool though because your a healer.
I say: Even tho Tholian ships and several other Sci Vessels are actually better at that job.
3) PvE is so easy that it doesn't matter cruisers put out significantly less damage
Because all tac team, EPTS, etc etc do is increase the EHP that needs burned for something to explode without a subnuke.
1) Cruiser damage output is low
2) In PvP its cool though because your a healer.
I say: Even tho Tholian ships and several other Sci Vessels are actually better at that job.
3) PvE is so easy that it doesn't matter cruisers put out significantly less damage
Because all tac team, EPTS, etc etc do is increase the EHP that needs burned for something to explode without a subnuke.
And this whole time you've been saying that escorts don't need anything because they are perfectly self-sufficient. I on the other hand am being realistic. Cruisers are TRIBBLE with what players are trying to do with them. They aren't a damage dealing ship class. They are a support ship class. And as such, if they do anything other than that, they will not excel.
I know that many players groan when they see a cruiser in most settings, because they either half expect it to suck horribly (which many do unfortunately), or they expect it to not do it's job of healing and support (which many also do). There are so many cruisers that try to be damage dealers. But they weren't designed as such.
So yes, I am saying that cruiser damage output is low, but that doesn't matter because they have a purpose in PvP with healing (I don't see any science ship able to burst heal like a cruiser can... something about most science ships cannot run Aux2SIF3 + ET3), and yes, I am saying that PvE is so easy that the lower damage doesn't matter.
And a good cruiser will be almost impossible to destroy without using a ship that is designed solely for combat or without a subnuke. So basically a bug, fleet defiant, or any ship with that level of damage output of course will steam-roll most cruisers, even odysseys. But anything lesser than that, a good cruiser will just gently push away with a small sigh saying "you won't kill me, go bother something else".
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
And a good cruiser will be almost impossible to destroy without using a ship that is designed solely for combat or without a subnuke. So basically a bug, fleet defiant, or any ship with that level of damage output of course will steam-roll most cruisers, even odysseys. But anything lesser than that, a good cruiser will just gently push away with a small sigh saying "you won't kill me, go bother something else".
I disagree. If the cruiser-player doesnt make a mistake that will be a draw. Than even a bug cant destroy it.
Basically you want a -now comes a german expression- "eierlegende Wollmilchsau", which is basically a combination of hen, cow,pig and sheep, giving milk and wool, laying eggs, as well as giving huge amounts of meet.
Here you just want a imba ship, capable of tanking as hell and firing like theres no tomorrow. Thats just imbalanced. A cruiser can tank two escorts, a escorts cant do that. With your suggestion a tank could not only tank two escorts, but also destroy them. That is ridiculous! Cruiser are not meant to be the damage dealers. But with the right build you can. Not as much as escorts, but than again, you have a way better defence.
I'd give it to the Cruisers, but with one requirement: it takes up an LTC and/ or CMDR Engineering slots and has a slight increase in weapon drain so that EPtW is a must. That way they lose a big part of the resists they get from high end Engineering abilities like EPtS3, ASIF23 and heals like ETS etc, and are limited in the Engineering abilities they run lower down the tiers in the way that Escorts are.
If they want to deal damage like an Escort then their ability to shrug off huge amounts of fire should be reduced to near Escort levels, too.
I disagree. If the cruiser-player doesnt make a mistake that will be a draw. Than even a bug cant destroy it.
Depends on the cruiser. Most freebie cruisers can't stop an alpha strike from a bug even if they wanted to. I have lost count of the number of competent cruisers I have seen smashed by bugs after surviving hell and back. The damage output on bugs is just crazily high. I personally don't mind, since I know anyone who put out for a bug probably also put out maximized their build and also probably built themselves around the ship. End result: dead target.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
That is possible. Did it myself in an escort. Its quite easy when the enemy only uses RSF with its 2min CD as the only defensive measure. No TT, no EptS, nothing.Off course you can slice the cruiser in two with such an useless setup. Its a player error, because cruisers can tank like they were solid neutronium - with the proper setup.
Unfortunately, there are enough pilots out there who are unable to take a single nanite sphere on. And thats not because they have the wrong ship
It is quite easy, even if your enemies have a perfect setup, by using broken equipment, which is the usual tactic of PvPers who also fly a bug(ged) ship in STO.
Some time ago it was stacking 3 purple Brace for Impact DOFs, giving you virtually an additional RSP every 45 secs. Fortunately, they got nerfed down a little bit.
Now, there are Elite Fleet Shields, which make escorts (but also cruisers) nearly undestroyableagain because they stack up shield resistance procs so that you are going to fight against 50%+ shield resistance.
This broken stuff mostly helps escorts because, in contrast to cruisers, become not only undestroyable but can deliver high burst damage, which is the only way to kill anything in PvP (beside coordinated focus fire from team mates). If you have no burst damage (and most cruiser have not), you will loose against the bug(tm) stuff.
And this whole time you've been saying that escorts don't need anything because they are perfectly self-sufficient. I on the other hand am being realistic. Cruisers are TRIBBLE with what players are trying to do with them. They aren't a damage dealing ship class. They are a support ship class. And as such, if they do anything other than that, they will not excel.
I know that many players groan when they see a cruiser in most settings, because they either half expect it to suck horribly (which many do unfortunately), or they expect it to not do it's job of healing and support (which many also do). There are so many cruisers that try to be damage dealers. But they weren't designed as such.
So yes, I am saying that cruiser damage output is low, but that doesn't matter because they have a purpose in PvP with healing (I don't see any science ship able to burst heal like a cruiser can... something about most science ships cannot run Aux2SIF3 + ET3), and yes, I am saying that PvE is so easy that the lower damage doesn't matter.
And a good cruiser will be almost impossible to destroy without using a ship that is designed solely for combat or without a subnuke. So basically a bug, fleet defiant, or any ship with that level of damage output of course will steam-roll most cruisers, even odysseys. But anything lesser than that, a good cruiser will just gently push away with a small sigh saying "you won't kill me, go bother something else".
Tholian ships, Wells, and I'm pretty sure the Vesta line-up but not 100% are the best healers.
Oddy is a close second. Might have something to do with the fact that the only reason cruisers are used as heal-bots in PvP being linked to the high amount of eng. boff slots instead of anything about the class design.
I figure if we are going to use an old fashion appeal to authority we should go for broke.
I have lost count of the number of competent cruisers I have seen smashed by bugs after surviving hell and back.
If you have two players of equal skill and equipment (one specialized in maximum damage output and the other in maximum survival), and the guy doing the shooting always wins, then there is a balance problem.
Funny how people complain about the Bug ship as if every Tac captain in the game can get their hands on one. They can't. It's a lockbox ship, so it has a right to be that good. The two Fed escorts capable of the same damage both come from a Tier 4 shipyard, so they have a right to be that good. Any fleet that can get a shipyard to that level deserves to have a reward like that.
Yes they do have a right to be good but balance dictates they must be stoppable, something it seems the vast majority of people CAN'T do
The more I think about it, the more I am liking my idea. Mount some port/starboard weapon slots on cruisers. One up front, one rear and three each at port/starboard. WHat do you guys think?
The more I think about it, the more I am liking my idea. Mount some port/starboard weapon slots on cruisers. One up front, one rear and three each at port/starboard. WHat do you guys think?
It could be a good idea although I think it would be better to do 3 fore 3 aft 3 port and 3 starboard but that would be too complicated for the game engine
Yes they do have a right to be good but balance dictates they must be stoppable, something it seems the vast majority of people CAN'T do
They are easily stoppable. I have seen a large number of bugs destroyed. But you cannot expect a ship not designed for high burst damage to stop a ship that was designed to be the ultimate damage dealer.
(for the record, I saw a fleet defiant go head to head with a bug, it was quite a fight, but the fleet defiant won, partially because he timed his alpha better, and the bug made a mistake on positioning, so it IS doable by a "lesser" (debatable) ship)
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
After playing with my new Breen ship over New Years. I can say cruisers are not under powered. I chewed up my enemies with it. Just like how my KDF does. If not worse after I threw in the cluster torpedo for a rear weapon. After I saw how my Breen ship did. I would say I would hate to face it in combat. Even more than my KDF ship. I see why many feared the Breen when they fought against them. There was a reason for it!
Granted I only do PVE, so I don't know about PVP.
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Comments
No, I didn't think to take any
Shortly after Season 7 went live
There weren't any, it was a 2 vs 1
I'd love to know but I don't
Jem'hadar attack ship, Excelsior Retrofit and an Odyssey
Escort was using 4 Polaron DHCs and 3 Polaron Turrets (I think using Jem'hadar set although it could have been MACO and/or Borg)
Excelsior was using 6 Tetryon beams Mk XI/XII all with Acc x1 and 2 Mk XII borg torps (Using full Mk XII MACO set)
Odyssey was using 8 beam arrays of unknown quality running the borg set
Less than 5 minutes
I'd say the Jemmy pilot was expert, the Excelsior captain (myself) I would say above average and the Odyssey pilot is competent (I have pvped him previously and he can handle himself)
I run 99% uptime on EPtW and EPtS and once the escort had his up he was untouchable with both cruisers on him ontop of this my Excelsior has 14k per facing shield and high uptime on tactical team yet he managed to force me to use RSP and within a few seconds of that going down I was dead, the Oddy didn't last much longer
I do have several "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" already.
First up is my Steamrunner, this thing tanks like a beast and puts out more DPS than any cruiser is capable of thanks to her always on EPTS 1, combined with a RSP for when things get hectic plus a hazard emitter for kicks and while normally I would pack an Aux2Strut there be no point so its DEM1 instead.
Following quickly behind is my Defiant which while it is the least tanky of my escorts by virtue of her tac captain and silly STF design puts out stupid high amounts of damage while still be able to tank a tac cube for between one and two minutes. Did I mention it packs APB3 and nearly doubles my entire teams damage output too? Yeah it does. Can't wait till I get the fleet version.
In closing we have the wonderful Fleet Patrol Escort (currently retired for steamrunner) and while common sense would say it is tanky by virtue of her always on EPTS1 that would be a lie. For you see it has an engineer captain and uses beams because I like variety so it has to have a pair of EPTW1s and an Aux2Strut. Thanks in part to the engineer captain, but moreso to her stupid silly defense rating (aegis engines FTW!) a huge number of attacks miss reducing the need to carry a ton of healing. Sadly though her DPS was at 'cruiser level' and had to be retired because even with 150+ weapon power, 4 tac consoles, and a good ole Nadion Inversion every 3 minutes she had a hard time breaking the 6k dps barrier in ESTFs which was unacceptable.
That doesn't even count my MVAE that CCed and energy drained like a boss while pumping out standard DHC punishment, the Fleet VorCha that is an escort in reality with 8 weapon slots, nor my shiney timeship that hasn't been flown for awhile.
Now would they perform well in PvP? Doubtful although I have 1v1ed with the FPE and did fine and have considered grabbing subnuke doffs for her just for the lols. But in PvE? I could 2 man an ESTF and get optional.
Pretty sure your average escort sustain when built that way, like an STF build for example, does exceed the average cruiser pair DPS potential. Possibly a pair of tac focused cruisers could break its tank but doubtful a single one could.
But that is meaningless as PvP is decided by teams not individuals which is why hyper-specialization is much more important when partaking in it whereas PvE, at least when PuGing, requires a player to be a bit more well rounded as they may not have a healer next to them. Or anyone in the team dealing over 1k DPS either. Therefor the ship that can keep itself alive while putting out the maximum amount of damage is ideal.
This is the PvE 'age of escort' no matter how many try to say it is not. Granted the new gear may change that atleast if you like using plasma beam arrays time will tell.
That is possible. Did it myself in an escort. Its quite easy when the enemy only uses RSF with its 2min CD as the only defensive measure. No TT, no EptS, nothing.Off course you can slice the cruiser in two with such an useless setup. Its a player error, because cruisers can tank like they were solid neutronium - with the proper setup.
Unfortunately, there are enough pilots out there who are unable to take a single nanite sphere on. And thats not because they have the wrong ship
Barring uncontrollable external influences such as technical problems or a severe mismatch in terms of equipment or bodies/ships, the most experienced player is generally victorious. Whether the previous conditions are present or the battle roughly equal, most engagements are decided by a fatal mistake at an inopportune time by either party. More experienced players make less of those mistakes.
Did you make a fatal mistake? Possibly. Were you simply outclassed? Probably. Not all engagements can be won but every engagement can be lost.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
How about make DBB 135' and HBA 90'? Most cruisers cant maintain full frontal arc with a faster target. I can with my Excel', but I have ben know to run four rcs mkxii and have a turn rate of 24.4 when I go dbb.
Most cruisers weren't designed to maintain full frontal arc on ANY target.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
I agree, but introducing a weapon for cruiser with a 60' arc makes even less sense, its not like cruisers have port/starboard mounted weapons in STO. A 60' arc would be pretty much worthless for cruisers. 90' is tenable for some cruisers, but still tough for others (unless you sit at 10km).
Well I admit that my ship is built for ESTFs (Build here) but with the EPtS&W, Aux2SIF and TT on the spacebar with the weapons I can even drag a CMDR Excelsior through an ESTF successfully, chances are I was simply outclassed by a pvp build I even managed to stop him moving at 1 point and get a broadside on him at full power and even that barely scratched his shields.
only one TT and that on spacebar with two other healing skills? I see the window of opportunity for an veteran escort player.
Yeah which between the other skills at my disposal I can fill
Not if the buffed attack is rightly timed. Then the 3rd attack -or to be precise- the second attack after you used RSP hits a nice window. Of course, even with that scenario you might have a chance with ET1+HE1, but i doubt that will be enough -even with the latent resistence EptS grants- to hold against a nicely buffed bug
You have a higher chance to survive with a manually triggered TT, giving you more defence cycles than you have now.
Heh, I always get first or second in SB24 on a scort using scatter and spread.
I fly both cruisers and escorts and the escort is just better. Granted a cruiser can park and spit while an escort has to constantly move. But escorts can tank gates and cubes just as well as a cruiser. And rips everything inferior to those apart fast enough tanking or healing is a moot point.
I have recently started playing around with an Aux2B cruiser build which does do more damage, but nothing in this game should be balanced around doff set ups.
I don't think the complain is that the escort can blow up a cruiser. I think the complaint was that two cruisers couldn't even get past an escort's shields.
The problem here is where? Cruisers are not DD. Not if they want to be useful in PvP. PvP and PvE are two entirely different beasts. In PvP you are facing ships like the bug. That ship is designed to be insanely difficult to destroy. Of course two cruisers won't get past a well-specced bugs shields. Hell 3 or 4 probably couldn't. But you take a Fleet Defiant or another bug, and all of a sudden there will be death.
In all honesty, the only reason cruisers are viable damage dealers in PvE is because most enemy NPCs won't use TSS, EPtS, or TT. An experienced player will use all of those. And more. You were pitting a healer up against a damage dealer. The healer ALWAYS loses in that case. And two healers? Anyone who has played WoW, LoL, and other games like that will know you could take 10 healers against a single damage dealer class, especially one that's pretty tanky (Deathknight anyone?) and they will still lose. Badly.
That's just an example of what happened. Now how about this. Change that up to a 2v2. Two escorts vs a cruiser and an escort. I am willing to bet the cruiser and escort will win. Because if they focus the escort, the cruiser will be able to heal with impunity. And if they focus the cruiser, the cruiser just goes defensive and the escort shreds the other two. And if they go 1v1, then the cruiser just needs to throw half it's heals to the escort and keep all power to aux and shields, and stay alive. Then after it's escort has won, it's escort can come over and kill the enemy escort.
All experienced PvPers will tell you that what I just put out is usually what happens. Adam, sorry to say, your ship is built as a kirk ship. It's designed to fly solo in STFs and do alright as damage goes. It can also provide limited support to your team. But if you're going to PvP as a cruiser, you have to go complete support. As in pure healer/support damage. That's just how it is. Tbh, I am not surprised at all that you couldn't break a bug's shields. The Jemmie bug is one of the best PvP escorts in the game. It's designed to take everything and keep on coming. And if it has the jemmie set, you won't kill it. Not as a cruiser, since it will keep your power levels drained, and strip buffs from you all the time. You were out-gunned and out-classed. It happens.
No, it's built to be self sufficient, the last time I built a support ship it fell flat on it's face
So basically your saying
1) Cruiser damage output is low
2) In PvP its cool though because your a healer.
I say: Even tho Tholian ships and several other Sci Vessels are actually better at that job.
3) PvE is so easy that it doesn't matter cruisers put out significantly less damage
Because all tac team, EPTS, etc etc do is increase the EHP that needs burned for something to explode without a subnuke.
And this whole time you've been saying that escorts don't need anything because they are perfectly self-sufficient. I on the other hand am being realistic. Cruisers are TRIBBLE with what players are trying to do with them. They aren't a damage dealing ship class. They are a support ship class. And as such, if they do anything other than that, they will not excel.
I know that many players groan when they see a cruiser in most settings, because they either half expect it to suck horribly (which many do unfortunately), or they expect it to not do it's job of healing and support (which many also do). There are so many cruisers that try to be damage dealers. But they weren't designed as such.
So yes, I am saying that cruiser damage output is low, but that doesn't matter because they have a purpose in PvP with healing (I don't see any science ship able to burst heal like a cruiser can... something about most science ships cannot run Aux2SIF3 + ET3), and yes, I am saying that PvE is so easy that the lower damage doesn't matter.
And a good cruiser will be almost impossible to destroy without using a ship that is designed solely for combat or without a subnuke. So basically a bug, fleet defiant, or any ship with that level of damage output of course will steam-roll most cruisers, even odysseys. But anything lesser than that, a good cruiser will just gently push away with a small sigh saying "you won't kill me, go bother something else".
I disagree. If the cruiser-player doesnt make a mistake that will be a draw. Than even a bug cant destroy it.
I'd give it to the Cruisers, but with one requirement: it takes up an LTC and/ or CMDR Engineering slots and has a slight increase in weapon drain so that EPtW is a must. That way they lose a big part of the resists they get from high end Engineering abilities like EPtS3, ASIF23 and heals like ETS etc, and are limited in the Engineering abilities they run lower down the tiers in the way that Escorts are.
If they want to deal damage like an Escort then their ability to shrug off huge amounts of fire should be reduced to near Escort levels, too.
Depends on the cruiser. Most freebie cruisers can't stop an alpha strike from a bug even if they wanted to. I have lost count of the number of competent cruisers I have seen smashed by bugs after surviving hell and back. The damage output on bugs is just crazily high. I personally don't mind, since I know anyone who put out for a bug probably also put out maximized their build and also probably built themselves around the ship. End result: dead target.
It is quite easy, even if your enemies have a perfect setup, by using broken equipment, which is the usual tactic of PvPers who also fly a bug(ged) ship in STO.
Some time ago it was stacking 3 purple Brace for Impact DOFs, giving you virtually an additional RSP every 45 secs. Fortunately, they got nerfed down a little bit.
Now, there are Elite Fleet Shields, which make escorts (but also cruisers) nearly undestroyableagain because they stack up shield resistance procs so that you are going to fight against 50%+ shield resistance.
This broken stuff mostly helps escorts because, in contrast to cruisers, become not only undestroyable but can deliver high burst damage, which is the only way to kill anything in PvP (beside coordinated focus fire from team mates). If you have no burst damage (and most cruiser have not), you will loose against the bug(tm) stuff.
Tholian ships, Wells, and I'm pretty sure the Vesta line-up but not 100% are the best healers.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=437711
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UbH_Vdqowb8rYAGEQPBMad_4HF_mm90TYNssyuyzv7U/edit?pli=1
Oddy is a close second. Might have something to do with the fact that the only reason cruisers are used as heal-bots in PvP being linked to the high amount of eng. boff slots instead of anything about the class design.
I figure if we are going to use an old fashion appeal to authority we should go for broke.
If you have two players of equal skill and equipment (one specialized in maximum damage output and the other in maximum survival), and the guy doing the shooting always wins, then there is a balance problem.
Yes they do have a right to be good but balance dictates they must be stoppable, something it seems the vast majority of people CAN'T do
It could be a good idea although I think it would be better to do 3 fore 3 aft 3 port and 3 starboard but that would be too complicated for the game engine
They are easily stoppable. I have seen a large number of bugs destroyed. But you cannot expect a ship not designed for high burst damage to stop a ship that was designed to be the ultimate damage dealer.
(for the record, I saw a fleet defiant go head to head with a bug, it was quite a fight, but the fleet defiant won, partially because he timed his alpha better, and the bug made a mistake on positioning, so it IS doable by a "lesser" (debatable) ship)
Granted I only do PVE, so I don't know about PVP.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Except the Chel Grett isn't a cruiser, it's an escort with an extra gun mount and an eating disorder.