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Fix Gravity Well.
boootz
Member Posts: 1 Arc User
In pvp gravity well is completely useless. Even if you have 4 purple MKxii consoles an aftershock doff and deflector dish doffs people consistently just fly out of it like its nothing.
Some serious thought needs to be given to whether it is operating as intended vs the resists of players at lvl 50.
Some serious thought needs to be given to whether it is operating as intended vs the resists of players at lvl 50.
Post edited by boootz on
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You're doing it wrong then. Most people just need evasive maneuvers. No need to adjust energy to engines or pop a battery.
The only people I've seen get stuck in a gravity well and die honestly would have died whether the gravity well was there or not.
If I have to tractor you to try and keep you in the gravity well theres a problem :P
It doesn't deal much damage, and it doesn't hold people well. Broken skill is broken.
GW works just fine... Yes every escort in the game right now runs 1 omega with ether doffs or 2 copies, for max uptime... yes they ignore gravity wells.
I even run Aux to Damp on my escorts... so yes GW very rarely every effects me.
However it reduces spam like a TRIBBLE.... its a great SUPPORT skill .... which is sort of what you should be doing in a sci ship. Its the anti tric mine skills. lol
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Anyone with BFAW, CSV or torpedo spread can kill pets. Big whoop de doo.
What can a sci do to an escort? As it is now energy drain is our only good offensive skill against escorts (or any other decent build), and this is a problem.
Gravity well is just a good example. It can be ignored with impunity, even if fully specced in the skill with supporting doffs and a full load of consoles. A tac does not have to invest nearly as much to get results much, much, much more substantial.
This concept that sci is there to just heal and debuff for escorts is TRIBBLE.
Escorts have too much dps too many hard counters to sci skills and too much resist to them.
Whats the counter or resist to Alpha strike + bo3 + crf3?
I good sir am 3 year science vet.
If you only think energy drain is the solution to escorts then i must good sir, you're doing it wrong.
Do you even Science Bro?
Because unless they are noobs it doesn't happen.
to fly right out of it. That said, sometimes they pull the whole group and it's pretty freaking funny. Perhaps it's the points in resist skills and/or the engine may have something to do with that. The fleet engine seems to have the speed to pull right out and I'm guessing the omega energy wake may be some of the reason OP is complaining.
There are other means to hold a enemy, so sometimes hax0r it and stack a few slows/holds on them in the grav well. Maybe add some AOE/dots?? profit?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
sci ships create opportunities to get kills, not kill by themselves. your sci ship is not an escort.
and right there is your problem.
science isnt a "1v1" career. its all about the team work it can provide.
and i've killed plenty of people 1v1 and in teams with my sci's, i've also been killed plenty too.
i currently use a shield stripping build. it works, (except against the teir 4 shield per second passiver) and its even better in a team build, i weaken their shields, sometimes completely remove them and the team mates do the dirty work.
science (ships) work best at setting up for the kill, not the actual kill itself.
unless its in a wells science ship with tric mines.
thats just evil.
catch me ingame sometime, i usually hang out in the organizedpvp chat channel. @matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
thats my point too! a sci ship can get kills but if thats all you want it to do then its being used wrong (except trics and dispersal pattern builds)
Do you even Science Bro?
I worry about potential science ships that have a whole back of tricks to otherwise disrupt me being able to zoom in, pick somebody off then wizz away to get another.
Anyone who just assumes its a Cruiser-Escort only game needs to be careful.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
i think thats one of the great things about "GOOD" science players.
dispite all the nerfs, dispite all the unlove we get.
science will find a way!
Do you even Science Bro?
right, grav well "alone" is useless against escorts. to make the most of it, you need to remove their attack pattern omega and then use a tractor beam or photonic shockwave to knock out their engines and hold them there.
and then hope they dont have a team who sees what youre doing because they quickly protect their escort.
and even if you were to be able to hold them still... what good would that do unless you yourself have backup to finish him off?
ie- teamwork kills
Do you even Science Bro?
Regular 'ol RSV
Passives
Romulan: +3% Crit, +ShieldHealOnCrit
Omega: +30 Weapon, +KineticProc
THY1, DPB1
TT1
EPtS1, AtS1
JS1, HE2, TBR2, GW3
PH1, TSS2, FP2
DOFFs: SDO, HSO, GS, DO, WCE
D/E/S: Breen
Weapons
Fore: 2x Rapid Trans, Breen Cluster
Aft: 2x Rapid Trans, Trans Mine
Consoles
Tac: 3x Trans
Eng: 2x Neut
Sci: Borg, 3x Part
Upgrades, eh?
Replace the Breen set with MACO/KHG (AKHG).
Grab Sci/Hull Romulan Science consoles.
Think about a Graviton Pulse console. Take note of the Tribble notes about Nadeon Det working with any standard torp.
Oh yeah, get a better Sci ship than the regular ol' RSV.
So you're thinking about using GW to do damage. What kind of damage does it do? Hull Damage. So you're going to build around that, right? What else does Hull Damage?
TBR does Hull Damage! Those pesky escorts might be running APO and ignore your pushing and pulling, but APO doesn't do anything about the damage like PH does. Look through the builds posted here and there (I'm usually the only one posting anything with PH). So just like the GW, you're not really interested in the pushing/pulling part. You're interested in the Hull Damage part!
FP - shield penetrating Hull Damage when they shoot you (and they will be shooting you).
What about weapons? Torps 'n Mines! But what about the Subsystem Targeting? TRIBBLE that! Torps 'n Mines! What kind of Torps 'n Mines? TRANNIES! Cause yeah, you're going to make them pop with full shields.
So what's with those passives? How's there any question about that? +Crit to melt that hull faster. +Weapon to melt that hull faster. +KineticProc (5% on Torps/Mines) to melt that hull faster. ShieldHealOnCrit? You bet your fat...er...yeah, they're likely to be critting you when you let them. Let them? Don't grab your ankles and say thank you - move around a bit.
So about not grabbing your ankles, what's that about? Something like this...
Mean ol' Escort's coming at you buffed to Hell and back. Without even thinking about it, your fingers moving toward your Subnuke (you are using keybinds, right?). Well slap that finger silly and don't do it. DON'T HIT THAT SUBNUKE...yet.
Jam him. What? Jam him. Jam's useless - everybody knows that. They're right. It's useless. Jam him. If he's got ST, he's likely to use it so he can pull off his precious alpha before the buffs wear off. If he doesn't have ST, he's probably wondering what kind of noob uses Jam. Nows a good time to pop Photonic Fleet. Huh? I'll explain in a moment.
So after he uses ST or makes comments about your intelligence...SUBNUKE! Subnuke now? Yes, SUBNUKE! So his buffs are gone (he will rebuff) and he's got the Subnuke debuff on him. If you had started off with the Subnuke... ah, you're catching on. Good.
So why did we pop Photonic Fleet? It's not like he's going to have a hard time targeting again after the Jam. It's a question of what he's going to be targeting though. After that Subnuke, you've fired off a THY Trans, a Tran, and a *targetable" Breen Cluster. He may be the kind of player that targeted the Cluster before you launched it - popped - giggled - and retargeted you... they're out there - they're Evil - they will kill you. If not though, he's likely to slip out CSV. You want your PFleet and yourself to take those hits - not your wee poor Breen Cluster.
So you're going to try to close as fast as possible. Besides, as you get close - you're going to DPB the Tran Mines and drop your GW on him.
Want to pause here for a moment. Strap yourself into his captain's chair and take a look at what's transpired on his screen:
Moment A) There you are - his next victim, sitting alone in cold of space.
Moment
Moment A. Moment B. Moment A. Moment B. Don't forget the Jam 'n Subnuke fun that took place between Moment A and Moment B. So again, Moment A. And again, Moment B. Still with me?
But he's good, and he's not going to be confused. As you fly past him, he's going to turn on a dime and be after you. Yep, he's going to be after you faster than I typed this sentence. He's going to chase you...following you...the Grav Well at his back and you in his sights.
Which is when you hit TBR.
Moment C) YOU <
> HIM <
> Grav Well
Moment D) YOU <-TBR-> HIM <
> Grav Well
So maybe he dealt with the mines, maybe he dealt with the cluster, maybe he didn't - but there he is - sitting between the TBR and the Grav Well. There's an odd disorder with many pilots, where they're blind to their hull if their shields are fine. It's kind of mind boggling. They'll see their shields are fine and won't see their hull going down. We're not going to assume this guy is one of them - just thought I'd point that out.
He's going to APO your TBR and move into position (don't forget, he APO'd it - so he's still taking damage if in range). He might be one of those pesky escort guys sporting a TB. Remember you took PH? Yeah, don't grab your ankles and sit there.
I feel the need to point something out here. Don't panic and blow all your CDs. There's a reason you have EPtS and TSS. There's a reason you have AtS and HE. There's also a reason you have both SDO & HSO for your BFI. So don't panic. If you panic, you've already lost.
I say that because you're going to be cycling your heals throughout the encounter - topping up here and there - adding resistance here and there (yep, all four of your heals are not only heals but also resistance buffs in case you didn't notice).
So back to that escort guy who's ready to reach through the screen and bludgeon you with your keyboard. He's likely ready to start shooting you a little more. There's a reason you haven't used your FP yet...so you can use it now.
Well, it gets a little boring now. Yes, that initial part was pretty exciting - but it gets a little boring now. You're not going to pop him fast. Who do you think you are? Escort Guy? No, you're Science Guy - no Bill Nye, but you're Science Guy all the same.
You've got BFI, TSS, EPtS, AtS, HE, the ShieldHealOnCrit...you've got your Jam - you've got the PH to reduce the effect of bleedthrough (don't forget AtS and HE help that as well) - you've got a faster GW that spreads - you've got your TBR...
...a moment here, if I may. I know that I said that you're not concerned about the pushing/pulling aspect of your abilities - but that doesn't mean that you do not want to move the fight away from any potential healers the guy might pull out of his pocket. You're going to want to move this guy away from the action. Some of that will involve nudging him away - some if it will involve gradually maneuvering the fight away...
...so there you'll be, dancing around your GWs (yes, you want to try to keep him in range of those as much as possible) - firing off Trannies (Rapids, Clusters, Mines) - and you'll be eating away at his hull - eating away at his hull - eating away at his hull...
...given the S7 passives and that 5% kinetic proc - likely to eat even faster...
...like a virus, you'll kill him from the inside.
Like a virus? Hrmmm... dancing around GWs. A dancing virus...eh?
...but yeah, don't do any of this - people will point at you and laugh. I'm used to it.
Escorts are mostly immune to GW yes... that is by DESIGN, and it works just fine.
What Gravity well will do is control the spam on the field making it easier to focus on the escorts as a TEAM... it will also take the single biggest threat off the field right now... that is ESCORT fired Disperal 3 tric mines. The well may not hold the escort but it sure as heck will kill the mines they are laying.
Your thoughts on how to kill escorts are off plain and simple....
First thing you have to do if you really want to hunt one class is understand there weaknesses...
For escorts that is there mobility... it lets them arc there guns... and it provides them defense bonuses.
So how do you stop an escort.... You have discovered that GW is often resist... although it is still a great skill to control the field... and set up the kills... SO GW 1 is still not a bad option on a real sci ship with 2 lt commander slots....
What else works... Viral Matrix... not many escorts will be carrying the main counter to VM so they will need support from there team... so obviously its a great 1v1 skill vs escorts, and a great team skill as well. Look into the doffs for VM.
Charged Particle Burst.... Yes its true some people are resisted more then others... however it disables cloaking (great for FvK)... and if someone isn't speced well into the counter as Mai has said it is extremely effective as Escorts DO not have the Cap or Reg of a Sci or Cruiser.
Attack pattern Delta / Beta.... this one vs an escort is going to take timing... most escorts run 2 copies of tac team... however if you are playing Sci Sci (and frankly if your any thing else in a Sci Ship... STOP and get in the right ship)... COMB Sub Nuke (As one of there tac teams is just starting) This will put there tac teams on extreme cool down mode... allowing you to punish them with Delta and Beta debuffs... and This is a great time to SENSOR scan... this will provide massive debuff and counter defense.
Photonic Shockwave... This skill does stun, although not for long... it is also resisted by Omega... However if you time it well this skill can set a escort up for the kill.
Target Engines 2 or 3... Yes you sci ship gets basic Sub Targeting for free... and indeed USE engines 1 against Escorts... often they won't be carrying engi teams... and if you proc a disable they will mostly sit there, unless they have a [aux] type engine. If you load a engine 2 or 3 you can keep engines on disable for a long period on someone not carrying the counter... combo that with VM (which is the same counter so if one works they both do) and you will rack up escort kills.
Tractor beam... yes watch for there omega buffs... or combo with sub nuke... tractor is a death sentance to escorts.
Tractor beam repulsors... right to hull dmg... omega is a BAD thing around tbr as it stops the push but NOT the dmg... a well speced TBR used when an escort is buzzing you with omega up... is a GREAT way to either kill them of force them to zoom away.
Eject Warp Plasma... Obviously not an option for ever sci ship ... but if your in one with a lt commander engi slot... this is a good skill to consider... even if an escort has a hazards running plamsa will force them to change directions, and even if it only hits them for a second its a huge window of opportunity for you and your team.
Chroniton Weaponry... YES you may have to sacrifice some DPS and run weapons that debuff. Cryptic has even handed sci players a huge anti escort set in the Lobi Time set... if you have the lobi get the console and the torp... and enable the +% to chron dmg... this will really help you with DPS on them... and the time torp is a good high dmg projectile that hides itself and hits more then you would expect... especially if the other team doesn't have a Gravity well thrower to kill the HY projectiles on the field... lol couldn't help that.
Anyway just trying to give you some ideas... not trying to sound condescending telling you your doing it wrong... however I don't think you have considered what is in your arsenal as a sci ship and what makes your enemy tick.
If you want to solo escorts... yes Gravity well isn't the right skill... GW is a Team support skill, and it does that well.. it controls spam and as others have said its effective at controlling healers... Cruisers fall victim to it most often and if you have doff procs of 2 and even 3 wells out the healer will be stuck... and their heal targets will often stay far enough away that you can catch them with less support. It us of course also the best anti carrier skill around... that includes the escorts with pets as well... yes keeping there dannoobs, or siphens ect out of the picture is awsome, and that will depend on the match... if you get in a match with 2-3 carriers having a good gravity well is a game changing.
The counter is to fire a FBP with a TT and a DEM then sub nuke before the counter hits "omg that sci ship just killed an escort in 10 sec" it works best in FvK but dose work on a defiant also very well
If you want to 'stick' someone in a Gravity Well then you're looking at stacking holds/disables on top of each other in order to completely neutralize your target. Find a Bridge Officer layout that also utilizes some of the following. Also, time your subnuke appropriately for stripping Buffs off your target.
There are many ships available that let you use some or all of the following Boff powers in addition to Gravity Well:
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Its a tac in an aux2bat vesta so mostly spam/device bane with a helping of do you like gravity wells. I'm ok with the oddball job its seems to do but want to check that I'm using my viral in the most annoying manner.
Anyway Grav well works fine its just escorts have lots of soft/hard counters to it by default almost. But if you and another ship hit a team at the same time and both get the Doff to proc its a case of space vacuuming, optimal time for someone to be a douche with tricos and that time console.
holding off on healing your hull and using ramming speed will get you out of any hold, even if your engines are off line!
evasive gets you out of most holds, or at least out of TB's effective hold range pretty easily.
direct counters like PH, APO, and AtD laugh at most holds.
noting is DEADLIER in game then being held down, trust me. having your movement controlled is certain death, thats why there is so many counters.
i have encountered plenty of GWs that i couldn't even escape with evasive, if you actually bother to min max, you can be hellishly effective with certain things that are mostly dismissed.
I personally think you could do better than to use an aux2battery combo on a Science heavy Vesta when using Auxiliary reliant powers. There are better builds out there in my honest opinion.
This may have held true back before December of 2011 but as of right now, maxing Graviton generators only increases the radius of the pull of the Gravity Well hold towards the center to a good extent. Last I checked, it might have increased the actual hold itself somewhat but not nearly to the extent it was over a year ago. A Gravity Well by itself even with Graviton generators maxed is easily escapable because of this broken mechanic that's been added to it. Borticus called it 'untrek' to have ships whipping around in a GW and the dev team changed the pull mechanic to its current state.
If you need, check out how Graviton generators actually affects a Gravity Well's pull from this: https://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skill%20Point%20Effects.htm
You'll be looking for km radius under the chart.
That's kind of interesting, because during the Mirror Event - 'untrek' things can happen quite often from the Stadi's GWs.
Yup, you're not the first person to make that observation. For some reason, that ship gets the supercharged Gravity Well of old from before free-to-play. This is the Gravity Well that everyone screamed nerf about. See how the devs like to use the word 'untrek'? You used to be able to view Borticus talking about some of the changes he made to Gravity Well earlier this year when free-to-play came along on one of the last episodes of STOked that he made a guest appearance on. He specifically uses the word 'untrek' in describing ships whipping around in a Gravity Well during that episode. I'm assuming Jupiter broadcasting still has those old episodes up if you want to view it. They didn't change the pull mechanic of Gravity Well till the latter end of F2P testing on Tribble and I would assume, since the Mirror Incursion event was already around on Tribble, this is the reason for the super-charged GW that the Stadi gets.
Are you saying DEM affects FBP?