When this change was made on Tribble, the players flipped out and made you change it back. You had to know the same thing would happen on Holodeck.
How about we open a dialogue and actually discuss the changes you guys want to make? Get feedback on where people want to earn Dilithium and find out where people are having fun.
I'm sure you guys know this by now, but it feels like the logic telling you to make this change was done via data mining and mathematical comparisons. It was made without the players.
Always remember the players.
The problem with that is that you're not going to please everyone, because everyone has their own opinions.
Making decisions requires some degree of consensus, and getting a bunch of players to agree on anything is like trying to agree on pizza toppings.
Sometimes the devs have to make a decision, listen to feedback, and adapt or alter course. And sometimes in that, the players don't always get to participate in the decision making process--they only get to ride out the crapstorm until the devs make the aforementioned adaptation or change in course.
The problem with that is that you're not going to please everyone, because everyone has their own opinions.
Making decisions requires some degree of consensus, and getting a bunch of players to agree on anything is like trying to agree on pizza toppings.
Sometimes the devs have to make a decision, listen to feedback, and adapt or alter course. And sometimes in that, the players don't always get to participate in the decision making process--they only get to ride out the crapstorm until the devs make the aforementioned adaptation or change in course.
Your right of course. Except for one little thing: the majority of people DID agree that the dilithium changes sucked on tribble. So everything you just said is invalidated.
Your right of course. Except for one little thing: the majority of people DID agree that the dilithium changes sucked on tribble. So everything you just said is invalidated.
Really?
Do you have, like, the comments everyone sent in so that you can count and see how many were in favor, how many were against, and how many didn't care? Because I betcha the Dev Team does.
Technically this is still a huge Dilithium hit, no matter how you look at it, I don't really see any reason to rejoice...
They also put like a 1 hour+ requirement on Foundry daily, so we also took a fleet mark hit too and additional dilithium hit. 1k dilithium doesn't really fix the hit we took.
Do you have, like, the comments everyone sent in so that you can count and see how many were in favor, how many were against, and how many didn't care? Because I betcha the Dev Team does.
Feel free to read the tribble forums if you wish to be proven wrong. They arent hard to find. If you are referring to in game bug reports, those are for reporting bugs, not giving feedback of changes.
Now If you'd anounce you were starting those weekly series again, I'd be in Nirvana.
I appreciate you lessening the screws and opening up more of out time to enjoy the game again. I also appreciate you allowing me to spend my money to purchase zen for the things I WANT.
I will continue to spend insane amounts of hard earned extra cash on lock box keys, new ships
lobi crystals and respecs to support this game. But to be honest, I probably would never have stopped ....
Feel free to read the tribble forums if you wish to be proven wrong. They arent hard to find. If you are referring to in game bug reports, those are for reporting bugs, not giving feedback of changes.
*shrugs* I do check the tribble forum. Posts in a forum do not make all the information. They just make all the posts on a forum.
Thank you and the other devs again for listening and weighing the concerns of the community. We're a passionate bunch and often overreactive when feeling slighted and/or ignored, but as y'all have acknowledged in the past, it's because we care about the game we are playing and would like to think that our opinions matter. Not looking for hand-outs or easy completions, just the notion that our more legitimate concerns are being considered to an appropriate degree and we are being allowed to shape our Star Trek experience in a fun way.
Props given where it's due. Let's hopefully not have to go through this too much.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010 "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
*shrugs* I do check the tribble forum. Posts in a forum do not make all the information. They just make all the posts on a forum.
Uh huh. So exactly what "comments that are sent in" were you referring to in your earlier post? In game bug reports? Again, those are for reporting bugs, not giving gameplay feedback. Please enlighten us.
After many hours of deliberation and review of the post Season 7 player data, I've made the call to reverse the decision to remove Dilithium as a reward for running STFs. In addition, we've also decided to keep Dilithium as a reward in Fleet Actions.
There have been numerous posts explaining the rationale that went into the reward changes and I can clearly state that our goal of getting more Dilithium into the average player has been very successful. As the data suggested, there is a huge contingent of players that simply do not play STFs but are eager to earn Dilithium in other content. These players are benefiting from the addition of Dilithium in the Fleet Actions, so that worked well.
However, our concern that there would be too much Dilithium in the economy if we left Dilithium in both STFs and Fleet Actions has been outweighed by the frustration we've seen from STF fans since the launch of Season 7.
Season 7 is an awesome content filled update that the team is very proud of that has been overshadowed by player frustrations over the Dilithium changes. Cryptic has and always will take player feedback into consideration when making decisions and this is a case where we agree with the players that Dilithium should be back in the STFs. It is more fun to run STFs when you can earn Dilithium towards end game gear and no amount of data driven logic can outweigh this.
So here are the changes we'll be making in a maintenance build by the end of this week.
Normal STF runs will grant 480 Dilithium
Elite STF runs will grant 960 Dilithium
Space Fleet Action runs will grant 480 Dilithium
Ground Fleet Action runs will grant 640 Dilithium
This is in addition to the other rewards that STFs and Fleet Actions grant.
While this is still a change from Season 6, we hope that these new amounts will help the average player earn more Dilithium per day while maintaining the Dilithium that players who like to run STFs were receiving.
The additional Dilithium may impact the player-to-player Dilithium exchange rates in the future, but we would rather you were having fun in Season 7 than worrying about the economy. We have enough of that to deal with in the real world.
Thank you for your patience and for being the best community of any MMO.
- dstahl
(p.s. the web team has updated the blog I posted last night with these changes to help cut down on confusion.)
WOW finnaly some commen sense PLS lets us play all of the game and not restrist us to playing a very limited amount of game.
Your right of course. Except for one little thing: the majority of people DID agree that the dilithium changes sucked on tribble. So everything you just said is invalidated.
If you're talking about the forums alone, yea. Majority of players, though? It's a known fact that forum users are the most vocal but also in the minority when it comes to the actual number of players. Same goes for a lot of social media. Truth is, by and large the vast majority of players of any game have no real opinion or choose not to make their opinions known. So, we'll never know whether this was just the response to those who actually gave feedback, whether that feedback came in the form of other non-verbal means (e.g. cancellations, reduction in ZEN spending, etc.) or what. All we know is that the devs made a call, the players rebelled, and the devs made the decision to change things back--at least partially.
My point is, change doesn't come easy to many. Devs know that. If they're looking to change a sacred cow, as it were, because it doesn't fit the direction they're looking for, they're going to have to expect the storm.
As much as I know many players would like to have their own individual opinions heard, trying to take into account each and every person's opinion is nigh impossible. Now, do I think this could have been handled better? Of course--everything can. From what I've researched on the issue so far, yea, some things got said, then went back on. It'd make me wonder why the hell that they changed position.
I guess, though, that I'm just laid back. I'm just the sort of person that if I was truly unhappy with a game, I'd just walk away from it. No ranting, no walls of text, no pitchforks....just quit cold turkey.
EDIT: Added quote so I didn't sound completely nuts.
Actually, when something as bad as the STF Dilithium reward removal happens, usually non-forum using people like me suddenly crawl out from the code-work to complain.
Plus your statement that the "Vocal minority" on the forums would have an opinion that is totally opposed to the "silent majority" that does not go to the forums is just plain illogical.
Usually the forum users reflect the opinions of the playerbase, statistically. I would be very, very, very surprised if it was not the same with STO.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
It wasn't an easy decision by any stretch of the imagination and even though the Dilithium changes to remove STFs has been on TRIBBLE since the test weekend promo,
Not to be an TRIBBLE, but people where complaining about the removed dil rewards on tribble the entire time. And where always told it was a bug, and that we will be getting 480/960 dil rewards for the STFs. the complete removable only hit holodeck with season 7 launch. Before it was said officially it is a bug.
Thanks STO community! Now I get to run 3!!! STF's to equal the dil I could get from one 10-15 minute Starbase 24. You seem to think this is an improvement. I was quite looking forward to only doing 1-2 elite STF's a week for marks while spending the rest of the time playing the much easier, no teamwork needed Starbase for my dil. Now I get to go back to the 'ol STF grind for my dil because the community is bad at math and trying new things.
They were trying to help us, and you told them, "Stop it! We like it terrible!"
Thanks STO community! Now I get to run 3!!! STF's to equal the dil I could get from one 10-15 minute Starbase 24. You seem to think this is an improvement. I was quite looking forward to only doing 1-2 elite STF's a week for marks while spending the rest of the time playing the much easier, no teamwork needed Starbase for my dil. Now I get to go back to the 'ol STF grind for my dil because the community is bad at math and trying new things.
They were trying to help us, and you told them, "Stop it! We like it terrible!"
no one is forcing you to play stfs play starbase 24 if that makes u happyers
I'm happy with the compromise offered here. However, I really wish that the Foundry feedback had also been considered.
1440 dilithium for well over an hour of play time doesn't really compete with official dilithium based missions.
I really hope that you guys re-evaluate the reward v. time investment for the Foundry wrapper, after you confirm that the anti-exploit tech is working as intended.
Thank you for listening to the stf community here.
no one is forcing you to play stfs play starbase 24 if that makes u happyers
Starbase 24 now gives a lot less dilithium than an Elite STF. So instead of playing something quick and simple that I enjoy, I'll have to grind on Elite STFs, which are long, tedious, and not really enjoyable.
Or I'll have to spend twice as long to earn the same amount of dilithium.
Thanks, dastahl and Cryptic, for this speedy attempt to fix the dilithium problem. It's much appreciated.
I don't usually bother posting on the forums, as I'm too busy playing the game, but this dilithium issue brought me here to protest -- only to find the issue already addressed.
Again, thanks to all at Cryptic for this -- and yes, I'm loving the Star Trek feel of the new Tau Dewa sector. Exploration, diplomacy, problem-solving. Very nice.
The decision to go for repeatable "collection-based" content, as opposed to the standard MMORPG "kill ten rats" repeatable content, for this region was a clever approach to a continuing issue in all MMORPGs. At least you changed the nature and the flavor of the perennial stuff, and that counts with me.
I'm happy with the compromise offered here. However, I really wish that the Foundry feedback had also been considered.
1440 dilithium for well over an hour of play time doesn't really compete with official dilithium based missions.
I really hope that you guys re-evaluate the reward v. time investment for the Foundry wrapper, after you confirm that the anti-exploit tech is working as intended.
Thank you for listening to the stf community here.
The only reason they changed the dilithium is because the forums being on fire made them look bad. Far less people care about the foundry, so they have no motivation to "listen" there.
ISE takes 15 minutes. It takes 8 if you're fast. CSE takes less than 15 minutes (often 10). KASE similarly has a timer at 15 minutes and is often cleared with plenty of time to spare. Add less than 5 minutes for each boss fight after the timer (and let's be honest, that often takes only a couple of minutes) and you've got 10 minutes each space STF for a total of half an hour, and you get over 1000 dil each.
How is that better than wasting my time on the same 2 fleet missions, each hard coded to 15 minutes (can't be finished early) or the SB24 which is idiotically simple (players are told to go play it at level 20 or something? It takes no skill, you just kill same stupid waves of ships and you have to be a total MORON to fail it)?
That's not better than doing STFs. SB24 is so mind numbingly boring after my first toon did it a few times NONE of my following toons have bothered to do it.
Cryptic screwed the pooch and they know it. They held this one bug as a distraction from the real problem. Hint: It's not the dilithium intake you get. It's the dilithium output you're forced to keep up. They have successfully distracted half of you, I'm sad to say. That isn't the issue at all. It's a small part of it.
This is basically another Dilithium nerf, and yet they're selling it like it's a huge favour to us! I'm thinking some Devs have some Ferengi blood in them.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This character is why I don't play my Romulan any more. Tovan Khev is NOT my BFF! Get him off my bridge!
At first I was unhappy with the dilithium nerf that I saw coming in S7. Then I realized the Fleet Action grant 1400 per 20min play time with 30min cool down + an extra 1440 from FA dailies (http://www.stowiki.org/Dilithium#Fleet_Action). After much consideration, I realized this could be a good way to farm dilithium after all that nerfing. STFs were going to become the grind place for Omega marks only and that would have been fine since we get lots of them in one run and the projects take forever to complete. It would have been better if we didn't even have to constantly do STFs to obtain the resources required for higher tier rep projects.
I've got genuine concerns about this, I am little bothered with the fact they chose to nerf the fleet actions.
i agree was no reason to nurf fleeties.
WHY limit what we can play there is a cap on refinement anyways and they said that too many players were not reaching cap and they want us too?!?!?
At first I was unhappy with the dilithium nerf that I saw coming in S7. Then I realized the Fleet Action grant 1400 per 20min play time with 30min cool down + an extra 1440 from FA dailies (http://www.stowiki.org/Dilithium#Fleet_Action). After much consideration, I realized this could be a good way to farm dilithium after all that nerfing. STFs were going to become the grind place for Omega marks only and that would have been fine since we get lots of them in one run and the projects take forever to complete. It would have been better if we didn't even have to constantly do STFs to obtain the resources required for higher tier rep projects.
I've got genuine concerns about this, I am little bothered with the fact they chose to nerf the fleet actions.
I would honestly be okay with everything if they put Fleet Actions back up to around 1000 dilithium a run.
That way, the people who really like STFs can run those and still get some dilithium, whilst the people who don't want to do them can still get dilithium and don't feel 'punished' for not running STFs
Thanks STO community! Now I get to run 3!!! STF's to equal the dil I could get from one 10-15 minute Starbase 24. You seem to think this is an improvement. I was quite looking forward to only doing 1-2 elite STF's a week for marks while spending the rest of the time playing the much easier, no teamwork needed Starbase for my dil. Now I get to go back to the 'ol STF grind for my dil because the community is bad at math and trying new things.
They were trying to help us, and you told them, "Stop it! We like it terrible!"
We weren't doing math, we were asking for decent rewards for playing the endgame elite content. Yes we wanted good rewards for being good players too. This isn't a nerf, it's just spreading ressources accross the board. Yes we might have to play more STFs to get dilithium but it's one of the best content the game has to offer.
If you still want to get easy rewards without teamplay i'm not sure it's the right game but the Starbase 24 is made for you, it's the realm of selfish play, where you drag mobs to your team mates to get the double purple loot while he's on respawn CD. :P
And you can still get the best loots in game with the fleet actions now. This is a huge improvement; probably one of the best season 7 made. Don't underestimate the value of ECs, this currency allows me to fly the best ships in the universe for little efforts (the lockbox ones).
With this system, space FAs will still be extremely competitive and attractive. Less dil but a lot more ECs. Make your decision.
Stahl (if you are still following this thread), revise the Dilithium rewards to the following:
Normal STFs: 480-720 dil
Elite STFs: 960-1440 dil
Fleet Actions: 760-1440 dil
BOTH ground and space Fleet Actions should reward similarly. Don't shoe horn players into 1 specific content, just to get the "best" amount of Dilithium rewards. Especially when that content is rather lackluster.
stahl (if You Are Still Following This Thread), Revise The Dilithium Rewards To The Following:
Normal Stfs: 480-720 Dil
Elite Stfs: 960-1440 Dil
Fleet Actions: 760-1440 Dil
Both Ground And Space Fleet Actions Should Reward Similarly. Don't Shoe Horn Players Into 1 Specific Content, Just To Get The "best" Amount Of Dilithium Rewards. Especially When That Content Is Rather Lackluster.
I started playing this when the game went free to play. Say what you will about us F2P players, but I honestly don't have the money nor interest to pay a monthly sub just for a single game when I can pick and chose what to purchase on multiple F2P games that will keep my interest in playing those games much longer than just one game.
I went from level 0-50 in six games of playing, and of course the next logical action was to start running the STFs. Within a week I was already bored of running the stfs, BUT just like with "Tour" the reward outweighs the boredom.
Personally I like the fact that they have spread Dilithium over a larger amount of actions to give some what more variety, but yes it's still a grind.
I would still like to see the 8k cap raised to 10k thou simply because of the increased systems needing Dilithium.
So Dan or anyone else with the knowledge on the economics part of the game I have a question for you please:
Would the 2-3k increase of the dilithium cap really effect the in-game economics that much now that there are all these different systems in place needing Dilithium??
Comments
The problem with that is that you're not going to please everyone, because everyone has their own opinions.
Making decisions requires some degree of consensus, and getting a bunch of players to agree on anything is like trying to agree on pizza toppings.
Sometimes the devs have to make a decision, listen to feedback, and adapt or alter course. And sometimes in that, the players don't always get to participate in the decision making process--they only get to ride out the crapstorm until the devs make the aforementioned adaptation or change in course.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Your right of course. Except for one little thing: the majority of people DID agree that the dilithium changes sucked on tribble. So everything you just said is invalidated.
Really?
Do you have, like, the comments everyone sent in so that you can count and see how many were in favor, how many were against, and how many didn't care? Because I betcha the Dev Team does.
They also put like a 1 hour+ requirement on Foundry daily, so we also took a fleet mark hit too and additional dilithium hit. 1k dilithium doesn't really fix the hit we took.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Feel free to read the tribble forums if you wish to be proven wrong. They arent hard to find. If you are referring to in game bug reports, those are for reporting bugs, not giving feedback of changes.
I appreciate you lessening the screws and opening up more of out time to enjoy the game again. I also appreciate you allowing me to spend my money to purchase zen for the things I WANT.
I will continue to spend insane amounts of hard earned extra cash on lock box keys, new ships
lobi crystals and respecs to support this game. But to be honest, I probably would never have stopped ....
*shrugs* I do check the tribble forum. Posts in a forum do not make all the information. They just make all the posts on a forum.
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
Uh huh. So exactly what "comments that are sent in" were you referring to in your earlier post? In game bug reports? Again, those are for reporting bugs, not giving gameplay feedback. Please enlighten us.
WOW finnaly some commen sense PLS lets us play all of the game and not restrist us to playing a very limited amount of game.
thank you we now have a reason to play stfs again
If you're talking about the forums alone, yea. Majority of players, though? It's a known fact that forum users are the most vocal but also in the minority when it comes to the actual number of players. Same goes for a lot of social media. Truth is, by and large the vast majority of players of any game have no real opinion or choose not to make their opinions known. So, we'll never know whether this was just the response to those who actually gave feedback, whether that feedback came in the form of other non-verbal means (e.g. cancellations, reduction in ZEN spending, etc.) or what. All we know is that the devs made a call, the players rebelled, and the devs made the decision to change things back--at least partially.
My point is, change doesn't come easy to many. Devs know that. If they're looking to change a sacred cow, as it were, because it doesn't fit the direction they're looking for, they're going to have to expect the storm.
As much as I know many players would like to have their own individual opinions heard, trying to take into account each and every person's opinion is nigh impossible. Now, do I think this could have been handled better? Of course--everything can. From what I've researched on the issue so far, yea, some things got said, then went back on. It'd make me wonder why the hell that they changed position.
I guess, though, that I'm just laid back. I'm just the sort of person that if I was truly unhappy with a game, I'd just walk away from it. No ranting, no walls of text, no pitchforks....just quit cold turkey.
EDIT: Added quote so I didn't sound completely nuts.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Still quit!
Plus your statement that the "Vocal minority" on the forums would have an opinion that is totally opposed to the "silent majority" that does not go to the forums is just plain illogical.
Usually the forum users reflect the opinions of the playerbase, statistically. I would be very, very, very surprised if it was not the same with STO.
Not to be an TRIBBLE, but people where complaining about the removed dil rewards on tribble the entire time. And where always told it was a bug, and that we will be getting 480/960 dil rewards for the STFs. the complete removable only hit holodeck with season 7 launch. Before it was said officially it is a bug.
They were trying to help us, and you told them, "Stop it! We like it terrible!"
no one is forcing you to play stfs play starbase 24 if that makes u happyers
1440 dilithium for well over an hour of play time doesn't really compete with official dilithium based missions.
I really hope that you guys re-evaluate the reward v. time investment for the Foundry wrapper, after you confirm that the anti-exploit tech is working as intended.
Thank you for listening to the stf community here.
Great job missing the point!
Starbase 24 now gives a lot less dilithium than an Elite STF. So instead of playing something quick and simple that I enjoy, I'll have to grind on Elite STFs, which are long, tedious, and not really enjoyable.
Or I'll have to spend twice as long to earn the same amount of dilithium.
tho i dont see why they cant reward us for playing ALL of the game of not just stfs and now fleeties
ps the BNP needs be changed 5 elite runs for 1k is TRIBBLE
I don't usually bother posting on the forums, as I'm too busy playing the game, but this dilithium issue brought me here to protest -- only to find the issue already addressed.
Again, thanks to all at Cryptic for this -- and yes, I'm loving the Star Trek feel of the new Tau Dewa sector. Exploration, diplomacy, problem-solving. Very nice.
The decision to go for repeatable "collection-based" content, as opposed to the standard MMORPG "kill ten rats" repeatable content, for this region was a clever approach to a continuing issue in all MMORPGs. At least you changed the nature and the flavor of the perennial stuff, and that counts with me.
Best,
KFS
The only reason they changed the dilithium is because the forums being on fire made them look bad. Far less people care about the foundry, so they have no motivation to "listen" there.
How is that better than wasting my time on the same 2 fleet missions, each hard coded to 15 minutes (can't be finished early) or the SB24 which is idiotically simple (players are told to go play it at level 20 or something? It takes no skill, you just kill same stupid waves of ships and you have to be a total MORON to fail it)?
That's not better than doing STFs. SB24 is so mind numbingly boring after my first toon did it a few times NONE of my following toons have bothered to do it.
Cryptic screwed the pooch and they know it. They held this one bug as a distraction from the real problem. Hint: It's not the dilithium intake you get. It's the dilithium output you're forced to keep up. They have successfully distracted half of you, I'm sad to say. That isn't the issue at all. It's a small part of it.
This character is why I don't play my Romulan any more. Tovan Khev is NOT my BFF! Get him off my bridge!
i agree was no reason to nurf fleeties.
WHY limit what we can play there is a cap on refinement anyways and they said that too many players were not reaching cap and they want us too?!?!?
I would honestly be okay with everything if they put Fleet Actions back up to around 1000 dilithium a run.
That way, the people who really like STFs can run those and still get some dilithium, whilst the people who don't want to do them can still get dilithium and don't feel 'punished' for not running STFs
We weren't doing math, we were asking for decent rewards for playing the endgame elite content. Yes we wanted good rewards for being good players too. This isn't a nerf, it's just spreading ressources accross the board. Yes we might have to play more STFs to get dilithium but it's one of the best content the game has to offer.
If you still want to get easy rewards without teamplay i'm not sure it's the right game but the Starbase 24 is made for you, it's the realm of selfish play, where you drag mobs to your team mates to get the double purple loot while he's on respawn CD. :P
And you can still get the best loots in game with the fleet actions now. This is a huge improvement; probably one of the best season 7 made. Don't underestimate the value of ECs, this currency allows me to fly the best ships in the universe for little efforts (the lockbox ones).
With this system, space FAs will still be extremely competitive and attractive. Less dil but a lot more ECs. Make your decision.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Normal STFs: 480-720 dil
Elite STFs: 960-1440 dil
Fleet Actions: 760-1440 dil
BOTH ground and space Fleet Actions should reward similarly. Don't shoe horn players into 1 specific content, just to get the "best" amount of Dilithium rewards. Especially when that content is rather lackluster.
This Pluss One
+1
I went from level 0-50 in six games of playing, and of course the next logical action was to start running the STFs. Within a week I was already bored of running the stfs, BUT just like with "Tour" the reward outweighs the boredom.
Personally I like the fact that they have spread Dilithium over a larger amount of actions to give some what more variety, but yes it's still a grind.
I would still like to see the 8k cap raised to 10k thou simply because of the increased systems needing Dilithium.
So Dan or anyone else with the knowledge on the economics part of the game I have a question for you please:
Would the 2-3k increase of the dilithium cap really effect the in-game economics that much now that there are all these different systems in place needing Dilithium??