Nearly forgot - make the Mannheim a DEVICE. Then it makes some sense. As a console, it needs a shorter cooldown and/or a flat reduction in the damage and healing passed along to you and to the future version.
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I've gotten good at quickly click-targeting and pinning the past ship so I can keep an eye on it. I actually find it more useful to throw hull heals on IT (which are reflected on me) but rarely have the time.
Its also good to NOT use it when facing a large group of foes, but instead save it for a larger single foe, so you can better control aggro.
Would LOVE if Tacs had a space version of Draw Fire to rely on, something clickable to control the aggro.
I've tried click-targeting and pinning and have only been 50% successful. Kudos to your quick hands!! The pinning of past/future self, multi-vectors, saucers and Aquarius should all generate a pinned status automatically. That would be awesome.
I've tried click-targeting and pinning and have only been 50% successful. Kudos to your quick hands!! The pinning of past/future self, multi-vectors, saucers and Aquarius should all generate a pinned status automatically. That would be awesome.
The problem is you shouldn't have to worry about such a thing in the first place!! As I said in an earlier post, the small dps increase from these two crummy AI ships is in no way worth such a risk - even if you manage to heal your past self it still gets eaten alive by fire/explosions and you go down with it. There isn't even a valid "flavor" reason why it should act like this, the 'suicide' console just needs a complete revamp.
The quick fix would obviously be to remove the damage transfer, but I'd really like to see a more imaginative solution (like one that creates TRUE clones of your ship, not stock-outfitted AI bots).
I too must express my unhappiness in being completely destroyed in seconds front a console that cost a lot of money. I am yet to find a benefit to the console or a practical application.
I've managed to acquire a Mobius of my own the night prior and spent my time on just general combat with the vessel, which is satisfying--she's a versatile flyer, one of the most dynamic escorts I've had the pleasure of using.
Then I bit the bitter pill and tested the Manheim Device in a Mirror Incursion and got to see for myself what I had been reading from others. Yes, the aggro-grab is immediate and obvious, very much like the mass-confuse/placate of the Shard of Possibilities for ground only without the benefit of the confuse aspect. Found myself wincing as the ships just sat there, unmoving, perhaps still 'phasing in' as they were being fired upon, thinking to myself 'geez do something already!'
I backed off as they went active and into combat, using, I think, the stock loadout that the Mobius unpacks with (antiproton dual beams and single beam arrays, chroniton torpedo launcher). I watched while the ships focused fire first on the future self, which smoldered in roughly 15 seconds while the past self continued to battle. It was when the past self flew through two exploding mirror battleships that the damage pinged in and I found myself going from 98% hull and four shields in the green, to 1% hull, very much on the verge of death. My fleetmate remarked she barely had time to throw an emergency heal on me.
So I see very clearly how this is a 'Suicide Console'. The damage output and combat behavior was largely indistinguishable to MVAM vectors, there seems to be no other benefit to justify such a glaring detriment as soul-bound damage. If the Past-Me is going to take this kind of aggro and death in just a Terran Incursion, I'd be a fool to use it in an Elite STF against multiple enemies, a Gateway, or a very angry Donatra.
What this leaves me with is a powerful escort with four Tac console slots and four Science console slots. And as one who thinks Science abilities are the bee's knees, I can totally live with this.
The Manheim Device, however, is best relegated to the pile of novelty consoles to be used when showing off in non-serious combat, squad-matched to lower fleet members. Until the Wells is in my possession, then I'll see how 'Fractured Time' fares.
I guess I'm not understanding why it's a problem to just remove the received-damage component from the console entirely. It's not like TPDS or Isometric have a downside, they're just "press-and-get-free-damage" buttons. For the price of the ship, IMHO this is not an outlandish request.
So, you want a full-blown deployable pet, with what looks to be like a full set of (default) weaponry, but no averse effects thereof, right? Would it help you even more if they gave you 2 extra bays of 6 deployable timeships? /sarcasm
I don't find this console useful, and use the Tipler by itself. Even the set bonus seems underwhelming as frozen enemies are not targetable.
The frozen state of your enemies during rewind time is so you can unwind, as it were: it gives you a bit of respit to press a few heal buttons (with reset counters on them, no less) and what not, to regather your strength. L2P.
You're not getting totally helpless, targetable NPCs. Again, would it help if Cryptic removed all NPC's for you altogether? /sarcasm
(For those who aren't familiar with it, it creates a future version and past version of you to appear and fight alongside you. Rather effectively, too, as they have the same weapons you do, as opposed to the vectors on the Multi Vector escort. If your past version gets damaged, however, that damage passes on to you.)
I'm OK with you getting hull damage if your past version gets damaged, but what I don't like is not knowing the status of your past version's shields or hull.
In every bit of science-fiction I've seen that even makes remotely sense, what happens to your past affects your future. As it should be. So, to the guy above, we're not going to "just remove the received-damage component." LOL. Seriously, people.
As for your alter's stats, would be nice to see them, but it's unlikely we ever will. You don't gets to monitor the stats on the separated chevron of your Ody, either; or on any pets, for that matter (unless you actively select them).
Personally, I'm quite content with Manheim. I never expected to get just 2 fighting ships for the price of one, without some form of compromize. Separated Ody chevron gives your 'main' less hull, and Manheim alter passes on (some) damage to your future self. Working as intended. And elegant, conceptually.
Nothing needs to change; though some people's whine could be nerfed a bit.
In every bit of science-fiction I've seen that even makes remotely sense, what happens to your past affects your future. As it should be. So, to the guy above, we're not going to "just remove the received-damage component." LOL. Seriously, people.
.
imma just gonna toss out the episode of the next generation- "all good things" into the mix here. both past ships get blown to bits in order of youngest to oldest yet! it doesnt effect the older ones.
star trek logic!
also, depending on how you think time travel is theorically done the moment you call in your past self would create a paradox. if you called in your past self how could you have called him in when you would have dissapeared before being able to call him in due to calling him in?
PARADOX!
love me some time travel stuffs.
of course the second back to the future movie throws this out the window when older biff takes the time car and travels back and changes the past but it doesnt effect the present until he gets back and doc and mcfly then travel back in time which would then have created the paradox of older biff being able to take the time car because that future was no longer possible because it was changed when he did it, so then it wouldnt have been done yet it was still done....
LOL all this commotion over some more p2w ships.... What I find funny about this is that I am still using the same ships I had 2 or 3 yrs ago... They still get the job done in STF's and they still hold their own in PVP... With the exception of the fleet ships that are now available I have no plans to buy any p2w ship.... And I'm not so sure the fleet ships are considered p2w but you do have to have ship modules to get them which is purchased from store or bought on exchange so maybe ... A person on this game could go broke just trying to keep up with the flavor of the month as far as ship's and their little extra consoles ..But in the end does it really make you a better player ... NO
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Target locked Captain....Alpha loaded....5,4,3,2,1.... Target dead captain, locking on next target
LOL all this commotion over some more p2w ships.... What I find funny about this is that I am still using the same ships I had 2 or 3 yrs ago... They still get the job done in STF's and they still hold their own in PVP... With the exception of the fleet ships that are now available I have no plans to buy any p2w ship.... And I'm not so sure the fleet ships are considered p2w but you do have to have ship modules to get them which is purchased from store or bought on exchange so maybe ... A person on this game could go broke just trying to keep up with the flavor of the month as far as ship's and their little extra consoles ..But in the end does it really make you a better player ... NO
Hi there, Lord CrimsonBold, and welcome to the conversation.
You may want to review such important matters as effective game design balance when introducing new content to players, producing content that is worth the players' effort to use, and the value of feedback to devs from consumers of said content, before assuming a complaint thread is just about stupid people who are upset that they cannot Win All The Things with their shiny boxed ships.
I guarantee you'll find some enlightening perspectives in the matter!
Congratulations on your self-made success story of being content with your bare essentials! This discussion thread however is not for chest-thumping. It is intended to inform other players who are curious about the Temporal Destroyer about the Manheim console in it, and to bring to Cryptic's attention the fact that a system they have released to their players is not working in the players' interests. And when you're a Free-to-Play model that depends on players investing to get that content...that's kinda important.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010 "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
In every bit of science-fiction I've seen that even makes remotely sense, what happens to your past affects your future. As it should be. So, to the guy above, we're not going to "just remove the received-damage component." LOL. Seriously, people.
Ahh, we're getting a bit off-topic here, but you must remember that Star Trek itself is not consistent with its rules of temporal and dimensional existence.
What happens in 'All Good Things..' with the destruction of past Enterprises was already brought up by matteo a few posts ago, conflicting with what happens in First Contact when we're shown a temporary view of Assimilated Earth by Borg time travel (which suggests a linear single-dimension progression, if ignoring paradoxes). And the different existences of the 'Prime Trek' and 'Abrams Trek' universes show that, at least sometimes, alternative realities are created when time travel is instituted. 'Yesterday's Enterprise', an example of single-time past-affects-future, though that was before AGT... There is no sense in time travel when you include notes of past interception and intervention paradoxes and the fact that time travel is achieved in many different ways. There are multiple theories for the effects of time travel and since we have no real-world way to prove any more viable, then infinite quantum existences branching off by the simple difference of a lone atom bouncing left when it would otherwise bounce right, can be as viable as single-string linear time akin to Back to the Future and most other popular Time Travel serials. It's up to creative license.
In short, as a dapper-dressed chap in a blue police box would say, it's all very timey-wimey...stuff.
And the most important thing to remember in all of this is that just because it works on a show doesn't make it a good idea as a rule for a video game, that requires balance. You are content with the Manheim Device, which is totally fine! But that changes not the fact that it is a console that puts a player's fate in the hands of an unthinking NPC. Why would I use that when I can use instead its superior older brother, the Multi-Vector Assault System, which won't put me at severe risk of death outside of my control (that part's important too: Outside of my control) for summoning two ship pets?
If I am to die, I would prefer it be because I made a mistake in strategy. Not because my quantum duplicate had a pants-on-head moment and flew into an exploding Tactical Cube.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010 "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
Ahh, we're getting a bit off-topic here, but you must remember that Star Trek itself is not consistent with its rules of temporal and dimensional existence.
What happens in 'All Good Things..' with the destruction of past Enterprises was already brought up by matteo a few posts ago, conflicting with what happens in First Contact when we're shown a temporary view of Assimilated Earth by Borg time travel (which suggests a linear single-dimension progression, if ignoring paradoxes). And the different existences of the 'Prime Trek' and 'Abrams Trek' universes show that, at least sometimes, alternative realities are created when time travel is instituted. 'Yesterday's Enterprise', an example of single-time past-affects-future, though that was before AGT... There is no sense in time travel when you include notes of past interception and intervention paradoxes and the fact that time travel is achieved in many different ways. There are multiple theories for the effects of time travel and since we have no real-world way to prove any more viable, then infinite quantum existences branching off by the simple difference of a lone atom bouncing left when it would otherwise bounce right, can be as viable as single-string linear time akin to Back to the Future and most other popular Time Travel serials. It's up to creative license.
In short, as a dapper-dressed chap in a blue police box would say, it's all very timey-wimey...stuff.
And the most important thing to remember in all of this is that just because it works on a show doesn't make it a good idea as a rule for a video game, that requires balance. You are content with the Manheim Device, which is totally fine! But that changes not the fact that it is a console that puts a player's fate in the hands of an unthinking NPC. Why would I use that when I can use instead its superior older brother, the Multi-Vector Assault System, which won't put me at severe risk of death outside of my control (that part's important too: Outside of my control) for summoning two ship pets?
If I am to die, I would prefer it be because I made a mistake in strategy. Not because my quantum duplicate had a pants-on-head moment and flew into an exploding Tactical Cube.
Hi there, Lord CrimsonBold, and welcome to the conversation.
You may want to review such important matters as effective game design balance when introducing new content to players, producing content that is worth the players' effort to use, and the value of feedback to devs from consumers of said content, before assuming a complaint thread is just about stupid people who are upset that they cannot Win All The Things with their shiny boxed ships.
I guarantee you'll find some enlightening perspectives in the matter!
Congratulations on your self-made success story of being content with your bare essentials! This discussion thread however is not for chest-thumping. It is intended to inform other players who are curious about the Temporal Destroyer about the Manheim console in it, and to bring to Cryptic's attention the fact that a system they have released to their players is not working in the players' interests. And when you're a Free-to-Play model that depends on players investing to get that content...that's kinda important.
lol... Ok you got it Captain Obvious ... Its broke dont buy it ... and what new content the only thing I see is a bunch of shiny new stuff to buy in store and a bunch of new lock boxes to take your chance on ... Thats not what I consider new content... Some more PvP maps and some new missions expecially for the Klink side is what I would consider new content... And how we at it fix some of the bugs that have been a plague in this game forever now like ending up in the shipyard when you chose to beam down to 1st city... Or having to switch maps to invite a friend to the team... Or my all time 2 newest favorite bugs of not being able to repair your ship while you are in an STF even tho you have all 3 forms of repair on hand and after respawning in a PVP you can't see your own ship until you die again ....Now with that said I understand that the people buying all this stuff is what is keeping the game alive ... And I understand that when you buy something you expect it to work for you otherwise why would you have spent your money...What I dont understand is what you call bare essentials was the only thing around till STO went F2P and all the new stuff that has came out since then really is nothing more than a bunch of spam...And that people actually want this TRIBBLE... As if we dont already have enough spam ingame...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Target locked Captain....Alpha loaded....5,4,3,2,1.... Target dead captain, locking on next target
Do the Clones actually get your Hull/Shields/base resistances?
If I am using Alloy's in my Engineer Conole Slots and Maco Shields? Or just the standard 33k hull?
Uncertain.
The only way I know of to ascertain whether they do or not is to glean what one can from the info window for the ships and observe the damage values coming off of the clones and whether they are melting under fire as fast as one's own ship. I did not observe them using any player abilities or bridge officer abilities the player has, so they seem to be no more true clones than the Shard of Possibilities summons--merely higher-stat support NPCs with your likeness.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010 "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
I am also very cautious with the Manheim Device - i realized it drives me to a weird tactic:
Whenever the battle gets really hot I will not activate the Manheim Device, because i know it will get me killed in no time (just go and have a look how your 'past self' manages to fight some Elite STFs). I only use it to mop up some of the leftovers at most. The only reason to slot it for me is the extra freeze effect on the tipler cylinder. At least for my playing style its mostly a waste of a valuable console slot.
I would say the Manheim Device needs some love as its not really useful now - especially when compared to the very effective tipler cylinder. I had a idea how to approach this:
Just make the past and future selfs being related together, so the effects will just have repercussions between those, taking the player out of danger as he is the point of origin his demise will also kill both duplicates. Killing the past will kill the future, not the present. So in a really bad case both would get destroyed really fast but would leave the player alive.
Another idea would be have the damage transfer from the past self not on the same scale, like when your past gets destroyed you take a critical damage like on an ELITE difficulty mission.
This idea probably need to be counter-balanced with the cooldown or the active time.
I would have to say, if they are not EXACT clones do two things..
Give us control of them IE being able to put the past one on a support mode. - Carrier esque stype I guess
Or not blow up if the past one driven by the moronic AI dies. Maybe make us hurt but not full out blow up. Maybe knock us down to 25%?
In every bit of science-fiction I've seen that even makes remotely sense, what happens to your past affects your future. As it should be. So, to the guy above, we're not going to "just remove the received-damage component." LOL.
Hi. I think you were too focused on flaming than reading what I wrote. If you read my text that you quoted you'll see that I'm not seeking to have the past version not pass on damage. In the text that you quoted I asked for a health meter for your past and future selves. In later posts in this thread I also said that it should be done for the multi vector ship, the ody and other multi-part ships.
LOL all this commotion over some more p2w ships.... What I find funny about this is that I am still using the same ships I had 2 or 3 yrs ago... They still get the job done in STF's and they still hold their own in PVP... With the exception of the fleet ships that are now available I have no plans to buy any p2w ship.... And I'm not so sure the fleet ships are considered p2w but you do have to have ship modules to get them which is purchased from store or bought on exchange so maybe ... A person on this game could go broke just trying to keep up with the flavor of the month as far as ship's and their little extra consoles ..But in the end does it really make you a better player ... NO
Ah, the P2W topic rears its ugly head again. I have all of the lockbox ships and fly them all. I don't do so to win. I do so because I enjoy flying different ships and I like making builds that provide me with entertainment. I know I'm not the only one who thinks like this. I don't even PvP as I don't find it enjoyable. All of a sudden those P2W ships don't sound as dirty as you're trying to make them out to be. Maybe you're so against them because you don't have any? I'm thinking the green-eyed jealousy monster has bitten you.
Back on topic, I don't want the Manheim console to be an 'I win' console. I want a console with a huge cooldown to be equally as effective as other consoles of its nature. (To date it's closest rival is the MVAM console. That has shorter effective cooldowns owing to the number of sections you can command, the vectors don't fade after a minute and they're actually effective.)
Ahh, we're getting a bit off-topic here, but you must remember that Star Trek itself is not consistent with its rules of temporal and dimensional existence.
What happens in 'All Good Things..' with the destruction of past Enterprises was already brought up by matteo a few posts ago, conflicting with what happens in First Contact when we're shown a temporary view of Assimilated Earth by Borg time travel (which suggests a linear single-dimension progression, if ignoring paradoxes). And the different existences of the 'Prime Trek' and 'Abrams Trek' universes show that, at least sometimes, alternative realities are created when time travel is instituted. 'Yesterday's Enterprise', an example of single-time past-affects-future, though that was before AGT... There is no sense in time travel when you include notes of past interception and intervention paradoxes and the fact that time travel is achieved in many different ways. There are multiple theories for the effects of time travel and since we have no real-world way to prove any more viable, then infinite quantum existences branching off by the simple difference of a lone atom bouncing left when it would otherwise bounce right, can be as viable as single-string linear time akin to Back to the Future and most other popular Time Travel serials. It's up to creative license.
I might have known the nerd-gang would whack me across the ears with Star Trek episodes. It's all good, though, we're all nerds here, after a fashion.
And yes, there are many time travel theories. But guess what? There's no "United Federation of Planets." We don't really have a temporal ship. And there's no real Omega 13 device. Our Beryllium Sphere is just wire with plaster around it. It's all fake.
Still should all make a bit of sense, though. Like our Manheim-ed ship from the past being physically linked to us in a manner that duplicating ourselves doesn't just create an entirely new, equally powerful, temporal ship. For the separated chevron of the Ody it made conceptually sense to have our 'main' have less hull. For duplicates of temporal ships that would make no sense, though. So, short of suddenly having 2 equally strong ships, the only real way to 'connect' the two ships is thru 'sharing' incurred damage. Love the concept.
You are content with the Manheim Device, which is totally fine! But that changes not the fact that it is a console that puts a player's fate in the hands of an unthinking NPC.
(...)
If I am to die, I would prefer it be because I made a mistake in strategy. Not because my quantum duplicate had a pants-on-head moment and flew into an exploding Tactical Cube.
So, basically, what you're saying is, that you'd like to see the NPC's A.I. improved? I wouldn't mind seeing a Manheim-ed alter of myself fight a little smarter, either (in fact, wouldn't mind seeing it EVE-style, where you can actually 'assume direct control' over your pets). I'm just not in favor of people being able to summon a new, and equally strong, copy of themselves, without there being some mechanism in place to mitigate such blatant OP-ness.
So, basically, what you're saying is, that you'd like to see the NPC's A.I. improved? I wouldn't mind seeing a Manheim-ed alter of myself fight a little smarter, either (in fact, wouldn't mind seeing it EVE-style, where you can actually 'assume direct control' over your pets). I'm just not in favor of people being able to summon a new, and equally strong, copy of themselves, without there being some mechanism in place to mitigate such blatant OP-ness.
Oh h3ll yeah, I'd be all over A.I. improvements! Quite frankly the enemy A.I. is repetitive, predictable, and honestly uninspired. That can be said for many games and isn't unexpected in an MMO. This A.I. is dumber than a deep sea provisions buoy made out of mesh wire and makes up for this by having damage modifiers to make them any sort of threat. But that's a different topic.
What I am basically saying (in the section over the ellipses you quoted) is I'd rather use a console that doesn't have a negative so devastatingly detrimental to the player. It is on a scale where even making two complete player-copy clones of oneself (with player stats, powers, and that horrid A.I.) would not make it balanced. The console seems to want to be a high-risk, high-reward option for combat. The high risk is there. What is the high reward? Do they fight stronger? Do they hit harder? Currently it seems to be high-risk, moderate-reward.
Or 'Hardcore' mode, if one wants to try combat with a handicap on the field. Might be good build and strategies practice for the No-Win Scenario: See if you can destroy all the enemy vessels before they take your Past-Self down.
And yes, you're right. If ever there were a nerd haven, it's in Star Trek. And I'm comfortable with that. Even with Trek's mangled continuity, which is the reason I spent that exhaustive paragraph in quote.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010 "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
[QUOTE= Ah, the P2W topic rears its ugly head again. I have all of the lockbox ships and fly them all. I don't do so to win. I do so because I enjoy flying different ships and I like making builds that provide me with entertainment. I know I'm not the only one who thinks like this. I don't even PvP as I don't find it enjoyable. All of a sudden those P2W ships don't sound as dirty as you're trying to make them out to be. Maybe you're so against them because you don't have any? I'm thinking the green-eyed jealousy monster has bitten you. [/QUOTE]
LOL the green eyed jealousy monster... Dude I want some of what you been smokin...lol...I really dont have an issue with P2W ships in general ... My issue is with the fleets and teams who use these ships and their consoles for a cheap win while PVP'ing ... Now lets take a look at the console here everybody is so upset with if it was working properly and I had it on my fed toon and used it in PvP it would what triple my damage and dps ... I have 3 cannons up front all pushing 2100 dmg and 1370 dps a quantum torpedo that does another 3500 dmg and 3 turrets on the back all pushing 500+ dmg and 600+ DPS and thats before I buff up with an alpha strike or any other buffs now if you was to multiply that by 3 me and my old and future self would obliterate anything but the tankiest of tanks and I am only 1`person ... now imagine my 4 teammates or fleetmates using the same tactics.... Which is what gets done by lots of teams and fleets whenever there is a new toy that craptic releases into the game.... Its not jealousy its a sense of wanting PVP to be more about skill in the individual players and how they play their role in team they are in and to quit being about who can spend the most money and get the best gear ... Many of us live paycheck to paycheck and cant afford the new ships everytime craptic releases 1.... But really none of this is meant for you because as you said you dont PVP... But there are a lot of people who do and I am 1 of them ... If it wasnt for PVP I would have left this game a long time ago... No way would I enjoy playing the same missions over and over again or doing nothing but farming ... But as it stands this is the best space fighting game out there at least that I know of ... oh and a FYI I choose not to buy the ships from the store altho as soon as I save up the EC I will end up buying a bug ship from the exchange ...But only because I really do see it as the best tac ship in the game ... Turns like a BoP has more DPS than an escort with the hull and shields comparable to a cruiser ... But I like it for the tactical reasons not because it has a special console because to my knowledge it doesnt ...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Target locked Captain....Alpha loaded....5,4,3,2,1.... Target dead captain, locking on next target
Like I said, I don't PvP, but I think only ships and consoles that EVERYONE has access to should be allowed in PvP to give everyone an equal footing. Special ships (they tend to be captured or bought off other factions, don't they?) should be PvE. That's my opinion bearing in mind that I don't PvP...
(For those who aren't familiar with it, it creates a future version and past version of you to appear and fight alongside you. Rather effectively, too, as they have the same weapons you do, as opposed to the vectors on the Multi Vector escort. If your past version gets damaged, however, that damage passes on to you.)
Are we using the same console? Because, at no time, have the past and future versions of my ship shared the same weapons as my present self. These copies are equipped with the Mobius' standard weapons, while my present self is equipped with AP cannons, a Chroniton DBB, photons, and turrets. They also lack the shields/deflectos/engines on my present self.
I wouldn't mind using the console and taking my past self's damage if these traits were all the same, but calling them past/future copies with stripped down systems and then allowing me to suffer their damage is just stupid. It makes the console useless in a heated battle, effectively earning it the title of a "suicide console".
Everything about how this ship is introduced/used is a slap in the face to logic. If they said it made "alternate timeline copies" it would make more sense. Also, how are we buying the story that they were stolen by tholians and stripped down? Wouldn't this make tholians extremely powerful, possessing 29th century tech? And how, as a time-travelling species, would you not travel back and notice or correct this? It would only make sense if these ships were given to us by future feds, not stolen. Whoever writes these backstories makes as much sense as a republican.
We should coin a new phrase: "I Manheimed myself."
Seriously, the concept of causality being implemented as a mechanic is a great idea on its own. However, with crappy A.I. and the sudden burst of threat generated by the duplicates, the console is indeed only good as a second self destruct button.
I can totally see why the Tholians did not remove this thing when they stripped the ship.
Lieutenant Thriskene: Commander, it seems this device brings a past version and future version of yourself into a possibly dangerous situation. Scans indicate that causality is still in effect.
Commander Huskene: LoL. Leave it be. If the apes somehow manage to capture this ship, we'll have some very entertaining situations to laugh about.
Lorewise, the concept is a bit flawed. Don't these ships have temporal shields that are specifically designed to protect the ship from annoying things like causality?
Quick question... Whats is a paradox? Answe that console.
If you use that console and bring your past self to the present and your past self gets destroyed.. then you were not ever in the present to bring your past self to the present because you were dead already.
The devs should never have tied the past ship to the present for damage, instead it should bring an older version of yourself from the past of another universe. Everyone can get a ground device that does the same thing but has nothing to do with time, so why not in the future a ship console is created that does it. Older ship deals less damage and future ship deals more balancing out to the triple damage.
Join Date: Nobody cares.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
The devs should never have tied the past ship to the present for damage, instead it should bring an older version of yourself from the past of another universe.
Or, in order to keep the time travel theme, an alternate timeline. They don't even need to be your past and future alternates.
Make it work exactly like the Shard of Possibilities and it'll be fine. And remove the threat burst, so they have time to do some actual damage.
The main fact is that cryptic wont do **** until this thread reaches 100 pages in 3 days and even then its put at position 3686432 right below "fix the galaxy".. The fact that you paid loads of money to get the ship doesnt interesst them. It only meens that the number of ppl who also have the ship is so small that cryptic cares even less...
I don't understand, your given a new product its up to you to buy it, your fully aware of what your buying yet when you receive it its either BUFF IT or NERF IT because I AM NOT HAPPY WAAAAAA !
ITS A FAAAKKKEEEE !!!! er I mean ITS A GAAAAMMEEE !!!! why don't they make it so the future and past self attack their ungrateful owner instead ?
I think what most people are missing is that the Manheim console is like a ship version of the Shard of Possibilities. The description says "Creates quantum duplicates" not "Pulls your ship from the past and future", and with the shard you don't take any damage when your quantum clones die in ground combat. The duplicates' stats aren't affected by anything you have equipped be it consoles or weapons, and they most certainly don't share your boff abilities or any benefit from your active doffs.
Similarly the MVAM pets and Saucer/Chevron don't benefit from your consoles, weapons, boff powers, or active doffs. Yes they lower the max hull value of the controlled ship by an insignificant amount (5%? 10%? That's a joke. -13% hull and -4.8% shields? Also a joke) and play with the power levels, but when you recombine with the destroyed pets you don't suddenly take 50% or 75% damage like would make sense from half or 2/3 of your ship being blown up while they were separated. Not going to get into the sudden crew death syndrome as that happens whether the pets are alive or not when you recombine.
The Manheim device ability is pitiful by comparison, temporary images that disappear on their own after a short time yet have an unrealistic malus attached.
Have they reworked this console or even slightly improved it since the last post (2013)
With the Delta Recruit Event its begging me to create a Temporal themed character:
-Wells Temporal Science Vessel
-Wells uniform
-Relativity Self-Targeting Rifle
-Relativity Stasis Pistol
-The above 3 for my away team
-Temporal Set
-Temporal Warfare Set
-Temporal Ambassador title
-Temporal Insight (Ship Trait)
-Temporal Storage Beacon Devices
-Shard of Possibilities (whenever the featured rerun comes out again)
-Negotiator Ship Device
-Paradox Corrector Ground Device
-Tesseract Communications Receiver
The first Belfast was commanded by Captain Ve'Kal Shon until its destruction in 2409. A new ship was commissioned bearing the same name and registry as special dispensation to then newly promoted Captain Edward XIII for his pivotal role during the renewed Dominion War.
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I've tried click-targeting and pinning and have only been 50% successful. Kudos to your quick hands!! The pinning of past/future self, multi-vectors, saucers and Aquarius should all generate a pinned status automatically. That would be awesome.
The problem is you shouldn't have to worry about such a thing in the first place!! As I said in an earlier post, the small dps increase from these two crummy AI ships is in no way worth such a risk - even if you manage to heal your past self it still gets eaten alive by fire/explosions and you go down with it. There isn't even a valid "flavor" reason why it should act like this, the 'suicide' console just needs a complete revamp.
The quick fix would obviously be to remove the damage transfer, but I'd really like to see a more imaginative solution (like one that creates TRUE clones of your ship, not stock-outfitted AI bots).
Then I bit the bitter pill and tested the Manheim Device in a Mirror Incursion and got to see for myself what I had been reading from others. Yes, the aggro-grab is immediate and obvious, very much like the mass-confuse/placate of the Shard of Possibilities for ground only without the benefit of the confuse aspect. Found myself wincing as the ships just sat there, unmoving, perhaps still 'phasing in' as they were being fired upon, thinking to myself 'geez do something already!'
I backed off as they went active and into combat, using, I think, the stock loadout that the Mobius unpacks with (antiproton dual beams and single beam arrays, chroniton torpedo launcher). I watched while the ships focused fire first on the future self, which smoldered in roughly 15 seconds while the past self continued to battle. It was when the past self flew through two exploding mirror battleships that the damage pinged in and I found myself going from 98% hull and four shields in the green, to 1% hull, very much on the verge of death. My fleetmate remarked she barely had time to throw an emergency heal on me.
So I see very clearly how this is a 'Suicide Console'. The damage output and combat behavior was largely indistinguishable to MVAM vectors, there seems to be no other benefit to justify such a glaring detriment as soul-bound damage. If the Past-Me is going to take this kind of aggro and death in just a Terran Incursion, I'd be a fool to use it in an Elite STF against multiple enemies, a Gateway, or a very angry Donatra.
What this leaves me with is a powerful escort with four Tac console slots and four Science console slots. And as one who thinks Science abilities are the bee's knees, I can totally live with this.
The Manheim Device, however, is best relegated to the pile of novelty consoles to be used when showing off in non-serious combat, squad-matched to lower fleet members. Until the Wells is in my possession, then I'll see how 'Fractured Time' fares.
I'm still in favor of my two proposed changes though!
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
So, you want a full-blown deployable pet, with what looks to be like a full set of (default) weaponry, but no averse effects thereof, right? Would it help you even more if they gave you 2 extra bays of 6 deployable timeships? /sarcasm
The frozen state of your enemies during rewind time is so you can unwind, as it were: it gives you a bit of respit to press a few heal buttons (with reset counters on them, no less) and what not, to regather your strength. L2P.
You're not getting totally helpless, targetable NPCs. Again, would it help if Cryptic removed all NPC's for you altogether? /sarcasm
In every bit of science-fiction I've seen that even makes remotely sense, what happens to your past affects your future. As it should be. So, to the guy above, we're not going to "just remove the received-damage component." LOL. Seriously, people.
As for your alter's stats, would be nice to see them, but it's unlikely we ever will. You don't gets to monitor the stats on the separated chevron of your Ody, either; or on any pets, for that matter (unless you actively select them).
Personally, I'm quite content with Manheim. I never expected to get just 2 fighting ships for the price of one, without some form of compromize. Separated Ody chevron gives your 'main' less hull, and Manheim alter passes on (some) damage to your future self. Working as intended. And elegant, conceptually.
Nothing needs to change; though some people's whine could be nerfed a bit.
imma just gonna toss out the episode of the next generation- "all good things" into the mix here. both past ships get blown to bits in order of youngest to oldest yet! it doesnt effect the older ones.
star trek logic!
also, depending on how you think time travel is theorically done the moment you call in your past self would create a paradox. if you called in your past self how could you have called him in when you would have dissapeared before being able to call him in due to calling him in?
PARADOX!
love me some time travel stuffs.
of course the second back to the future movie throws this out the window when older biff takes the time car and travels back and changes the past but it doesnt effect the present until he gets back and doc and mcfly then travel back in time which would then have created the paradox of older biff being able to take the time car because that future was no longer possible because it was changed when he did it, so then it wouldnt have been done yet it was still done....
-head hurts-
Hi there, Lord CrimsonBold, and welcome to the conversation.
You may want to review such important matters as effective game design balance when introducing new content to players, producing content that is worth the players' effort to use, and the value of feedback to devs from consumers of said content, before assuming a complaint thread is just about stupid people who are upset that they cannot Win All The Things with their shiny boxed ships.
I guarantee you'll find some enlightening perspectives in the matter!
Congratulations on your self-made success story of being content with your bare essentials! This discussion thread however is not for chest-thumping. It is intended to inform other players who are curious about the Temporal Destroyer about the Manheim console in it, and to bring to Cryptic's attention the fact that a system they have released to their players is not working in the players' interests. And when you're a Free-to-Play model that depends on players investing to get that content...that's kinda important.
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
Ahh, we're getting a bit off-topic here, but you must remember that Star Trek itself is not consistent with its rules of temporal and dimensional existence.
What happens in 'All Good Things..' with the destruction of past Enterprises was already brought up by matteo a few posts ago, conflicting with what happens in First Contact when we're shown a temporary view of Assimilated Earth by Borg time travel (which suggests a linear single-dimension progression, if ignoring paradoxes). And the different existences of the 'Prime Trek' and 'Abrams Trek' universes show that, at least sometimes, alternative realities are created when time travel is instituted. 'Yesterday's Enterprise', an example of single-time past-affects-future, though that was before AGT... There is no sense in time travel when you include notes of past interception and intervention paradoxes and the fact that time travel is achieved in many different ways. There are multiple theories for the effects of time travel and since we have no real-world way to prove any more viable, then infinite quantum existences branching off by the simple difference of a lone atom bouncing left when it would otherwise bounce right, can be as viable as single-string linear time akin to Back to the Future and most other popular Time Travel serials. It's up to creative license.
In short, as a dapper-dressed chap in a blue police box would say, it's all very timey-wimey...stuff.
And the most important thing to remember in all of this is that just because it works on a show doesn't make it a good idea as a rule for a video game, that requires balance. You are content with the Manheim Device, which is totally fine! But that changes not the fact that it is a console that puts a player's fate in the hands of an unthinking NPC. Why would I use that when I can use instead its superior older brother, the Multi-Vector Assault System, which won't put me at severe risk of death outside of my control (that part's important too: Outside of my control) for summoning two ship pets?
If I am to die, I would prefer it be because I made a mistake in strategy. Not because my quantum duplicate had a pants-on-head moment and flew into an exploding Tactical Cube.
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
Wow ! I tip my hat to you.
lol... Ok you got it Captain Obvious ... Its broke dont buy it ... and what new content the only thing I see is a bunch of shiny new stuff to buy in store and a bunch of new lock boxes to take your chance on ... Thats not what I consider new content... Some more PvP maps and some new missions expecially for the Klink side is what I would consider new content... And how we at it fix some of the bugs that have been a plague in this game forever now like ending up in the shipyard when you chose to beam down to 1st city... Or having to switch maps to invite a friend to the team... Or my all time 2 newest favorite bugs of not being able to repair your ship while you are in an STF even tho you have all 3 forms of repair on hand and after respawning in a PVP you can't see your own ship until you die again ....Now with that said I understand that the people buying all this stuff is what is keeping the game alive ... And I understand that when you buy something you expect it to work for you otherwise why would you have spent your money...What I dont understand is what you call bare essentials was the only thing around till STO went F2P and all the new stuff that has came out since then really is nothing more than a bunch of spam...And that people actually want this TRIBBLE... As if we dont already have enough spam ingame...
If I am using Alloy's in my Engineer Conole Slots and Maco Shields? Or just the standard 33k hull?
Uncertain.
The only way I know of to ascertain whether they do or not is to glean what one can from the info window for the ships and observe the damage values coming off of the clones and whether they are melting under fire as fast as one's own ship. I did not observe them using any player abilities or bridge officer abilities the player has, so they seem to be no more true clones than the Shard of Possibilities summons--merely higher-stat support NPCs with your likeness.
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
Whenever the battle gets really hot I will not activate the Manheim Device, because i know it will get me killed in no time (just go and have a look how your 'past self' manages to fight some Elite STFs). I only use it to mop up some of the leftovers at most. The only reason to slot it for me is the extra freeze effect on the tipler cylinder. At least for my playing style its mostly a waste of a valuable console slot.
I would say the Manheim Device needs some love as its not really useful now - especially when compared to the very effective tipler cylinder. I had a idea how to approach this:
Just make the past and future selfs being related together, so the effects will just have repercussions between those, taking the player out of danger as he is the point of origin his demise will also kill both duplicates. Killing the past will kill the future, not the present. So in a really bad case both would get destroyed really fast but would leave the player alive.
Another idea would be have the damage transfer from the past self not on the same scale, like when your past gets destroyed you take a critical damage like on an ELITE difficulty mission.
This idea probably need to be counter-balanced with the cooldown or the active time.
Regards
Give us control of them IE being able to put the past one on a support mode. - Carrier esque stype I guess
Or not blow up if the past one driven by the moronic AI dies. Maybe make us hurt but not full out blow up. Maybe knock us down to 25%?
Hi. I think you were too focused on flaming than reading what I wrote. If you read my text that you quoted you'll see that I'm not seeking to have the past version not pass on damage. In the text that you quoted I asked for a health meter for your past and future selves. In later posts in this thread I also said that it should be done for the multi vector ship, the ody and other multi-part ships.
Ah, the P2W topic rears its ugly head again. I have all of the lockbox ships and fly them all. I don't do so to win. I do so because I enjoy flying different ships and I like making builds that provide me with entertainment. I know I'm not the only one who thinks like this. I don't even PvP as I don't find it enjoyable. All of a sudden those P2W ships don't sound as dirty as you're trying to make them out to be. Maybe you're so against them because you don't have any? I'm thinking the green-eyed jealousy monster has bitten you.
Back on topic, I don't want the Manheim console to be an 'I win' console. I want a console with a huge cooldown to be equally as effective as other consoles of its nature. (To date it's closest rival is the MVAM console. That has shorter effective cooldowns owing to the number of sections you can command, the vectors don't fade after a minute and they're actually effective.)
I might have known the nerd-gang would whack me across the ears with Star Trek episodes.
And yes, there are many time travel theories. But guess what? There's no "United Federation of Planets." We don't really have a temporal ship. And there's no real Omega 13 device. Our Beryllium Sphere is just wire with plaster around it. It's all fake.
Still should all make a bit of sense, though. Like our Manheim-ed ship from the past being physically linked to us in a manner that duplicating ourselves doesn't just create an entirely new, equally powerful, temporal ship. For the separated chevron of the Ody it made conceptually sense to have our 'main' have less hull. For duplicates of temporal ships that would make no sense, though. So, short of suddenly having 2 equally strong ships, the only real way to 'connect' the two ships is thru 'sharing' incurred damage. Love the concept.
So, basically, what you're saying is, that you'd like to see the NPC's A.I. improved? I wouldn't mind seeing a Manheim-ed alter of myself fight a little smarter, either (in fact, wouldn't mind seeing it EVE-style, where you can actually 'assume direct control' over your pets). I'm just not in favor of people being able to summon a new, and equally strong, copy of themselves, without there being some mechanism in place to mitigate such blatant OP-ness.
Oh h3ll yeah, I'd be all over A.I. improvements! Quite frankly the enemy A.I. is repetitive, predictable, and honestly uninspired. That can be said for many games and isn't unexpected in an MMO. This A.I. is dumber than a deep sea provisions buoy made out of mesh wire and makes up for this by having damage modifiers to make them any sort of threat. But that's a different topic.
What I am basically saying (in the section over the ellipses you quoted) is I'd rather use a console that doesn't have a negative so devastatingly detrimental to the player. It is on a scale where even making two complete player-copy clones of oneself (with player stats, powers, and that horrid A.I.) would not make it balanced. The console seems to want to be a high-risk, high-reward option for combat. The high risk is there. What is the high reward? Do they fight stronger? Do they hit harder? Currently it seems to be high-risk, moderate-reward.
Or 'Hardcore' mode, if one wants to try combat with a handicap on the field. Might be good build and strategies practice for the No-Win Scenario: See if you can destroy all the enemy vessels before they take your Past-Self down.
And yes, you're right. If ever there were a nerd haven, it's in Star Trek. And I'm comfortable with that. Even with Trek's mangled continuity, which is the reason I spent that exhaustive paragraph in quote.
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
LOL the green eyed jealousy monster... Dude I want some of what you been smokin...lol...I really dont have an issue with P2W ships in general ... My issue is with the fleets and teams who use these ships and their consoles for a cheap win while PVP'ing ... Now lets take a look at the console here everybody is so upset with if it was working properly and I had it on my fed toon and used it in PvP it would what triple my damage and dps ... I have 3 cannons up front all pushing 2100 dmg and 1370 dps a quantum torpedo that does another 3500 dmg and 3 turrets on the back all pushing 500+ dmg and 600+ DPS and thats before I buff up with an alpha strike or any other buffs now if you was to multiply that by 3 me and my old and future self would obliterate anything but the tankiest of tanks and I am only 1`person ... now imagine my 4 teammates or fleetmates using the same tactics.... Which is what gets done by lots of teams and fleets whenever there is a new toy that craptic releases into the game.... Its not jealousy its a sense of wanting PVP to be more about skill in the individual players and how they play their role in team they are in and to quit being about who can spend the most money and get the best gear ... Many of us live paycheck to paycheck and cant afford the new ships everytime craptic releases 1.... But really none of this is meant for you because as you said you dont PVP... But there are a lot of people who do and I am 1 of them ... If it wasnt for PVP I would have left this game a long time ago... No way would I enjoy playing the same missions over and over again or doing nothing but farming ... But as it stands this is the best space fighting game out there at least that I know of ... oh and a FYI I choose not to buy the ships from the store altho as soon as I save up the EC I will end up buying a bug ship from the exchange ...But only because I really do see it as the best tac ship in the game ... Turns like a BoP has more DPS than an escort with the hull and shields comparable to a cruiser ... But I like it for the tactical reasons not because it has a special console because to my knowledge it doesnt ...
They should still fix the Manheim, though.
Are we using the same console? Because, at no time, have the past and future versions of my ship shared the same weapons as my present self. These copies are equipped with the Mobius' standard weapons, while my present self is equipped with AP cannons, a Chroniton DBB, photons, and turrets. They also lack the shields/deflectos/engines on my present self.
I wouldn't mind using the console and taking my past self's damage if these traits were all the same, but calling them past/future copies with stripped down systems and then allowing me to suffer their damage is just stupid. It makes the console useless in a heated battle, effectively earning it the title of a "suicide console".
Everything about how this ship is introduced/used is a slap in the face to logic. If they said it made "alternate timeline copies" it would make more sense. Also, how are we buying the story that they were stolen by tholians and stripped down? Wouldn't this make tholians extremely powerful, possessing 29th century tech? And how, as a time-travelling species, would you not travel back and notice or correct this? It would only make sense if these ships were given to us by future feds, not stolen. Whoever writes these backstories makes as much sense as a republican.
Seriously, the concept of causality being implemented as a mechanic is a great idea on its own. However, with crappy A.I. and the sudden burst of threat generated by the duplicates, the console is indeed only good as a second self destruct button.
I can totally see why the Tholians did not remove this thing when they stripped the ship.
Lieutenant Thriskene: Commander, it seems this device brings a past version and future version of yourself into a possibly dangerous situation. Scans indicate that causality is still in effect.
Commander Huskene: LoL. Leave it be. If the apes somehow manage to capture this ship, we'll have some very entertaining situations to laugh about.
Lorewise, the concept is a bit flawed. Don't these ships have temporal shields that are specifically designed to protect the ship from annoying things like causality?
If you use that console and bring your past self to the present and your past self gets destroyed.. then you were not ever in the present to bring your past self to the present because you were dead already.
The devs should never have tied the past ship to the present for damage, instead it should bring an older version of yourself from the past of another universe. Everyone can get a ground device that does the same thing but has nothing to do with time, so why not in the future a ship console is created that does it. Older ship deals less damage and future ship deals more balancing out to the triple damage.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
Make it work exactly like the Shard of Possibilities and it'll be fine. And remove the threat burst, so they have time to do some actual damage.
ITS A FAAAKKKEEEE !!!! er I mean ITS A GAAAAMMEEE !!!! why don't they make it so the future and past self attack their ungrateful owner instead ?
Similarly the MVAM pets and Saucer/Chevron don't benefit from your consoles, weapons, boff powers, or active doffs. Yes they lower the max hull value of the controlled ship by an insignificant amount (5%? 10%? That's a joke. -13% hull and -4.8% shields? Also a joke) and play with the power levels, but when you recombine with the destroyed pets you don't suddenly take 50% or 75% damage like would make sense from half or 2/3 of your ship being blown up while they were separated. Not going to get into the sudden crew death syndrome as that happens whether the pets are alive or not when you recombine.
The Manheim device ability is pitiful by comparison, temporary images that disappear on their own after a short time yet have an unrealistic malus attached.
With the Delta Recruit Event its begging me to create a Temporal themed character:
-Wells Temporal Science Vessel
-Wells uniform
-Relativity Self-Targeting Rifle
-Relativity Stasis Pistol
-The above 3 for my away team
-Temporal Set
-Temporal Warfare Set
-Temporal Ambassador title
-Temporal Insight (Ship Trait)
-Temporal Storage Beacon Devices
-Shard of Possibilities (whenever the featured rerun comes out again)
-Negotiator Ship Device
-Paradox Corrector Ground Device
-Tesseract Communications Receiver
The first Belfast was commanded by Captain Ve'Kal Shon until its destruction in 2409. A new ship was commissioned bearing the same name and registry as special dispensation to then newly promoted Captain Edward XIII for his pivotal role during the renewed Dominion War.