Manheim Device

darramouss1

Hey all.

First of all, I have to say that I'm a HUGE fan of the new temporal ships. Not only do they look cool but they perform rather well.

The Tipler Cylinder is really useful, especially when you have the Manheim device equiped as well. The Manheim device, well, I find it useful in certain conditions.

(For those who aren't familiar with it, it creates a future version and past version of you to appear and fight alongside you. Rather effectively, too, as they have the same weapons you do, as opposed to the vectors on the Multi Vector escort. If your past version gets damaged, however, that damage passes on to you.)

I'm OK with you getting hull damage if your past version gets damaged, but what I don't like is not knowing the status of your past version's shields or hull. In the middle of big battles, with numerous enemies all around, you don't have time to check up on it. You only really know that its shields are down and it's taking damage when you go pop with your shields on full. This has resulted in me only ever using it in relatively safe conditions so as not to pop at a critical moment. Not a very good use for such an awesome console!!

PWE, you really made an awesome ship here, but can you please look at some way of alerting us when the past version is weakening to the point that our hull is starting to get damage passed on to it? Even better, have little status windows appear for each vector/component. I don't feel that this would be buffing the console, but rather providing the player with a little more situational awareness. (If you do do this, can you do the same for other ships that split or have other separate components, like the MVAM, Odyssey and Exploration Retrofit?)

Thank you.

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somedudez

I totally agree with the OP.

There needs to be a warning system for when the past-time ship receives significant damage.

If that's too difficult then at least give it a more defensive posture?
Could the AI could be adjusted for that? :cool:

It is frustating watching your ship *pop* when at full shields and hull.

Its nick-name the suicide console is fully justified....


=====================================
somedudez

Redneck Killer :P

Temporal Destroyer Captain - IKS TimeWarp
Jem Hadar Captain - U.S.S. Critical Bug

darramouss1

It's funny you say that as I only use it when the Tippler is ready to go as well!!

sheppardus

I agree its far from ideal, especially as it seems NPCs instantly changes targets to the duplicates, I'd much rather it keep attacking whoever is giving the most aggro, Getting very annoying when a cube instantly changes to your past ship and pops it within 30 seconds.

Does anyone know if the future and past ships use your Boff powers? If not I really think they should as it would make it more realistic seeing its you from 2 different points in time.
It would make it a lot better for survivability of the ships too if they used science team, hull heal or tact team (or any of the other powers you have equipped)

rickpaaa

I don't find this console useful, and use the Tipler by itself. Even the set bonus seems underwhelming as frozen enemies are not targetable.

bitemepwe

Am I the only one with an overwhelming Manheim Steamroller joke wanting to burst out?

szim

The real problem is as soon as you activate the console every single enemy inside a 10k range starts shooting at your temporal copies. Even though you do a lot more damage than your images they will not target you. So the usual process is the following: Your future image blows up, your past image blows up, you blow up.

If only you could at least see some status report of your images so you would be able to heal them if necessary.

Also your images do not fire the same weapons as you do. I've mounted antiproton dual heavy cannons on my Mobius. But my images are shooting Antiproton BEAMS. Maybe I was naive or did not read the description well enough but I thought they were meant to shoot the exact same weapons you do.

partizan81

I guess I'm not understanding why it's a problem to just remove the received-damage component from the console entirely. It's not like TPDS or Isometric have a downside, they're just "press-and-get-free-damage" buttons. For the price of the ship, IMHO this is not an outlandish request.

darramouss1

rickpaaa wrote: »

I don't find this console useful, and use the Tipler by itself. Even the set bonus seems underwhelming as frozen enemies are not targetable.

Is it known whether enemies are frozen for teammates whilst in STFs? If that's the case then it becomes VERY useful for protecting Kang, slowing probes and helping escort buddies by not allowing their targets to turn.

darkenzedd

To be honest, I was really hoping for a better MVAM with this console.

How wrong was I!!

Lasted exactly 10 minutes on my Mobius before I threw it into my inventory/bank never to be used again.

Just proves that despite the costs involved with these ships, they are more useless than the cstore versions!

My MVAM would run rings around the Manheim Device sadly....

partizan81

darkenzedd wrote: »

To be honest, I was really hoping for a better MVAM with this console.

How wrong was I!!

Lasted exactly 10 minutes on my Mobius before I threw it into my inventory/bank never to be used again.

Just proves that despite the costs involved with these ships, they are more useless than the cstore versions!

My MVAM would run rings around the Manheim Device sadly....

Like I say... remove the damage-received component from the device and booyah, Mobius console > MVAE console. I'm not holding my breath though...

partizan81

reyan01 wrote: »

That's a good point - and one I've wondered about before.

There isn't any need for the duplicates to take damage when the console is activated. It could easily have had a latent ability that, when active, keeps the duplicates slightly out of phase with normal space-time, leaving them much more difficult to damage (though I think invincible would be too much).

If anything, it should be a mechanic where any damage you take is cut by a third, and the remaining 2/3rds split to your quantum duplicates. That way it has a built-in damage-taken reduction, versus a damage-taken increase (which let's be honest, wtf sense does that make?).

darramouss1

I can see the sense of the damage travel, I think that that mechanic, whilst a bit hard, makes sense in relation to what the item does, but it needs to be adjusted to make it reasonable.

starkaos

Doesn't the console effectively give a 1/3 damage reduction except for AoE attacks where it doubles that damage done to you? Not sure about team settings since things get complicated, but in a solo setting, you will be hit by every single successful attack made by the npcs. PvP is complicated depending on how observant or lucky they are. Of course, there are pets to reduce damage, but that applies to other ships. With the console, you increase your firepower by 3 since you have 2 ships that are duplicates of your ship and one duplicate that deals no damage to you when hit. Only problems with the console is AoE attacks and grabbing more aggro while in a team.

mentalwrack

These replies are so frustrating to read because no one seems to understand just HOW bad the Manheim console really is (aside from darkenzedd).

This is an expensive console with a huge 5-minute cooldown, the effect needs to be very powerful in order to justify that. The in-game description says it "triples your firepower" by creating two doubles... if only this were the case.

The two ships created are horrible. It takes 5 seconds into the effect before they actually start attacking, and then you realize they aren't true duplicates - equipped with stock weapons (two beams, a dual cannon, torpedo, and tractor beam 1, as far as I can tell). Worse, they are AI-controlled, meaning they are of little help when active - hardly worthy of a 5-minute CD.

Of course that isn't real problem with the Manheim effect, it's that the game claims it provides a 1/3 chance to reduce damage (if your future ship is targeted), but in reality, the past ship's damage transferring to you makes this console a enormous liability instead of a benefit. Any AoE skill will eat you alive by dealing double damage, and your past ship itself crumbles under direct fire. I've seen it go down in 5 seconds in STFs and take me down right with it (and just try it in PvP...). The worst was when the AI-piloted past ship flew into a borg cube explosion, and I watched hopelessly as I was instantly destroyed.

There is no reason at all for damage to transfer to the user from one of the terrible AI ships, it makes the console unusable! Please re-work the console that it's actually useful.

bclark09

I learned the hard way that using that console in a swarm is as effective has hitting the self-destruct button. Maybe if the enemy ships paid attention to who's catching all the aggro instead of blasting me-from-ten-seconds-ago to kingdom come, it would be useful. Right now, I only use it for probe cleaning in STF's or with a very small number of ships. Anything else is just asking for death.

khayuung

Does it not occur to any of you that the Manheim was supposed to be used at the same time as the Tipler? Its not just the set bonus only.

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rodentmaster

It's absolutely stupid to make damage to the "past" ship hit yours. Absolutely and idiotically. As soon as you transported either ship out of their own time you break the causaility that they have upon you. In effect you have created new timelines for all of them.

Further, YOU still take damage, so why doesn't the damage pass to you, then pass directly to the FUTURE you? YOu shouldn't take extra damage for some BS reasoning like that.

darramouss1

I think trying to make sense of temporal mechanics as created by a science fiction show isn't the best way to approach this. What I do think is that, considering it's console from a very rare ship, it needs to be improved.

One improvement that I think is very needed is you should be able to cancel the effect early, like you can with the multi-vector assault ship. If you're aware that the past you is in trouble you should be able to end the effect.

nikkyvix

By the sound of it, this console's cons as parsed by the system outweigh its pros. I've been saving up to hopefully attain a Mobius Destroyer and had my ideas that the console it comes with would be a fun addition to combat, but after the impressions listed here, I'm not so sure...

If any devs are listening (and I'm sure you are), I propose an alternative pair of ideas:

1. Reduce or remove the damage-passing from Past-self to Present-self. Perhaps making it a percentage of damage passed from the past-self to present, one which won't result in death*

2. Alter the behavior of the past self to result in a status effect when it is disabled or destroyed. For instance: No damage (or reduced damage) passed to the player, but when it is destroyed, it inflicts a temporary subsystem disable on the player, possibly impacted by the player's stats to recover from it. Explain it however you will; temporal backlash from the banishment of the past self creates a chronometric shock ripple that temporarily disables the present (and future) selves, what have you.

I have a suspicion that either of these options would be better received..and more fair...than a Soul Bond with a non-thinking NPC that does not have a concept of self preservation.

*The Manheim Effect's concept is novel, of course; changing your own past self changes your present. But the way STO's system interacts with this just makes it far too much of a liability. Making a player's fate dependent on a non-thinking NPC is not fun game design, punishing the player for something they did not do. The player learns to distrust the system with their fate and thus won't use the option that causes it.

You're seeing this very thing exhibited with the people in this thread, angry at their 'Suicide Console'.

darramouss1

nikkyvix wrote: »

2. Alter the behavior of the past self to result in a status effect when it is disabled or destroyed. For instance: No damage (or reduced damage) passed to the player, but when it is destroyed, it inflicts a temporary subsystem disable on the player, possibly impacted by the player's stats to recover from it. Explain it however you will; temporal backlash from the banishment of the past self creates a chronometric shock ripple that temporarily disables the present (and future) selves, what have you

This has to be the best suggestion for it so far. Not only is it detailed but it also makes sense. It's an idea that will make the console very useful without being overpowered. I vote for this.

khayuung

Except AGT was all about how things in the future can TRIBBLE with things in the past, which is a complete inversion of what is seen here...

Also, the depiction of time and how messing with it affects casuality in Star Trek is inconsistent.

Which is consistent with Quantum theory.

I think.

Maybe?

Or not.

...this is why I'm a dumb Tac. I failed Temporal Mechanics back in the Academy.

jovusamberose

Some additional notes on the Manheim device.

Aggro: Though it takes several seconds for the additional ships to start firing, I've witnessed on several occasions that the NPCs in the area -immediately- target the time-cloned vessels.

They will drop me as their primary target even if I've gotten them to half health and they should hate me like no tomorrow. Perhaps good in one sense...not so good in that they are, to be terribly blunt, TRIBBLE.

They fold like weak tin cans and do huge amounts of damage to you in the process. Then, as everything in the area swaps aggro to you (yes me, not teammates who've been focussing fire on them for some time) and strips the last of your health away.

I have to say this item is a misdesigned piece of cack.

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mbomberdavid

mentalwrack wrote: »

These replies are so frustrating to read because no one seems to understand just HOW bad the Manheim console really is (aside from darkenzedd).

This is an expensive console with a huge 5-minute cooldown, the effect needs to be very powerful in order to justify that. The in-game description says it "triples your firepower" by creating two doubles... if only this were the case.

The two ships created are horrible. It takes 5 seconds into the effect before they actually start attacking, and then you realize they aren't true duplicates - equipped with stock weapons (two beams, a dual cannon, torpedo, and tractor beam 1, as far as I can tell). Worse, they are AI-controlled, meaning they are of little help when active - hardly worthy of a 5-minute CD.

Of course that isn't real problem with the Manheim effect, it's that the game claims it provides a 1/3 chance to reduce damage (if your future ship is targeted), but in reality, the past ship's damage transferring to you makes this console a enormous liability instead of a benefit. Any AoE skill will eat you alive by dealing double damage, and your past ship itself crumbles under direct fire. I've seen it go down in 5 seconds in STFs and take me down right with it (and just try it in PvP...). The worst was when the AI-piloted past ship flew into a borg cube explosion, and I watched hopelessly as I was instantly destroyed.

There is no reason at all for damage to transfer to the user from one of the terrible AI ships, it makes the console unusable! Please re-work the console that it's actually useful.

what you say is all too true. i simple need to look at it is a new toy im flying for fun rather than effect.(or i would go mad) the sad truth is that it is underpowered and overpriced...

shimmerless

mattjohnsonva wrote: »

Most of us temporal agents call it the "Suicide Console" and seldom use it for that reason, the only time I'd ever use it myself is if the Tippler is ready to go and save my bacon!

It seriously needs some rework, as it stands now there is little benefit to having it and I will probably slot the Tachyon Console in it's place soon as I've been robbed off enough Zen, er....saved up for the keys!

You won't regret it dude. I feel dirty helping a bug get even stronger but seriously, that console is beast mode.

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fiberteksyfir

Depositing my 2 EC here..

I agree it needs a rework. The funky thing is, the 3-pc Lobi Temporal set is way more useful than the manheim that comes with the ship. In some PvE yea it's OK, but STFs and PvP that bad boy gets unslotted.

I find the whole mechanic a little silly really, considering how actually awesome the console would be if the past version getting popped didn't kill you. I guess also it wouldn't be AS BAD.. if the clones didn't draw aggro like a cat walking into a dog park..

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