While I applaud the effort Bort I have to wonder if a much more simple system would work better. Such as this, numbers are just for show and not intended to be balanced or correct.
Each Drone drains a set amount per tic say 10.
Flow Capacitor skill increases the drain by say 30% so at 200 skill drain is 16.
Insulator skill resists a % of the drain with diminishing returns tacked on at the end if you want, just like armor works. So simple formula would be (Skill)/(100+Skill) = % resisted. At 100 skill you would get 50% resist or loose 8 per drain tic.
And lets make the drain work similar to polaron weapons so EPS can help too possibly.
What do you gain with this methodology?
1) Energy drains are never worthless if you have low Flow Capacitor skill vs high Resist skill
- In the above example the drain of 10 would become drain of 5 if 0 FC skill vs 100 I skill.
2) High resist will still be semi-effective against players with a high Flow Capacitor skill
- In the above example the drain of 10 would become drain of 11 if 350 FC skill vs 100 I skill
3) The system is no longer so binary in nature
Relative value/Opposed system mechanics work very very well and that is why nearly any PvP focused game heavily uses them. And then to make it even more fun add a 'resist penetration' sci console that lowers enemy sci resists by a % for shenanigans.
My drone/fighter killer... just can't kill ASDs much less SDs like she can other drones/fighters. It's a GPU chewing spamfest... but it doesn't matter.
Regarding siphon drones (improving from last post) they should be something like a hard cap off at 100 (maybe make this vary from 90-110 depending on flow capacitors and insulators) for all subsystems then subtraction of something like 1/8-1/6 (also make this vary like hard cap) power for all subsystems under 100. All this should instantly happen every 15 seconds per drone (for six drones thats every 2.5 seconds, make the drones rotate at equal periods in that 15 seconds*) (since they're a lot of drones) and allow that power to recharge via the victims EPS skill. This way a partial counter could be EPS consoles as well as power insultors. Only one hanger should be allowed per ship for a maximium of 6 drones.
After more thinking (about my previous post) I realized that 4000 on BFI doffs then again 5 seconds later is to much, 1500-2000 shield heal then again 5 seconds later is a good idea but am still unsure about this.
Also Aceton beam dosen't need to be on the Fer'Jai Frigates the tricobats and chroiton torps are enough.
Also in my testing drones not catching up to the attacker is rare diogene0.
*What I mean is first deployment of three drone 1 immediatly drains, 5 seconds later drone 2 drains, another 5 seconds drone 3 and the cycle repeats if 1 drone dies then drone 1 immediatly, drone 2 7.5 seconds later. When all six drones deployed d1 immediatly, d2 2.5 seconds, d3 2.5 seconds after, etc.
While I applaud the effort Bort I have to wonder if a much more simple system would work better. Such as this, numbers are just for show and not intended to be balanced or correct.
Each Drone drains a set amount per tic say 10.
Flow Capacitor skill increases the drain by say 30% so at 200 skill drain is 16.
Insulator skill resists a % of the drain with diminishing returns tacked on at the end if you want, just like armor works. So simple formula would be (Skill)/(100+Skill) = % resisted. At 100 skill you would get 50% resist or loose 8 per drain tic.
And lets make the drain work similar to polaron weapons so EPS can help too possibly.
What do you gain with this methodology?
1) Energy drains are never worthless if you have low Flow Capacitor skill vs high Resist skill
- In the above example the drain of 10 would become drain of 5 if 0 FC skill vs 100 I skill.
2) High resist will still be semi-effective against players with a high Flow Capacitor skill
- In the above example the drain of 10 would become drain of 11 if 350 FC skill vs 100 I skill
3) The system is no longer so binary in nature
Relative value/Opposed system mechanics work very very well and that is why nearly any PvP focused game heavily uses them. And then to make it even more fun add a 'resist penetration' sci console that lowers enemy sci resists by a % for shenanigans.
so that 10 per tic is suddenly 30-60 because theres 3-6 drones from a single carrier and only a single bay. so if both bays launch 2 waves of 3 thats then 12 drones all taking 10 power per tick.
unlimited power drain. sure you could kill them, but that doesnt give you your power back, so by the time you kill them itll still be lower. and the the fresh drain takes from the lower number making it worse etc etc etc. no amount of resist will help because the drones just keep on draining.
there needs to be a low resistable drain and a HARD CAP on how much each drone takes. and then when the drone is destroyed an instant resupply of the power it drained, for the drones to not be overpowered.
If they really just can't get the drain mechanics right then how about splitting siphons up into 4 subsystem specific deployables so you have to pick which subsystem gets drained? So you could do 6 engine drain drones or 3 engine/3 shield drain drones.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
so that 10 per tic is suddenly 30-60 because theres 3-6 drones from a single carrier and only a single bay. so if both bays launch 2 waves of 3 thats then 12 drones all taking 10 power per tick.
unlimited power drain. sure you could kill them, but that doesnt give you your power back, so by the time you kill them itll still be lower. and the the fresh drain takes from the lower number making it worse etc etc etc. no amount of resist will help because the drones just keep on draining.
there needs to be a low resistable drain and a HARD CAP on how much each drone takes. and then when the drone is destroyed an instant resupply of the power it drained, for the drones to not be overpowered.
The numbers I used were hypothetical to show a mechanical system and relationship that works well nothing else.
thats not the point, replace that number with anything but 1 and thats still a serious amount of unlimited drain.
UNLIMITED drain. the UNLIMITED being the key point i was trying to make.
stick 5 in the power slow, thats 5-60 power per tick. each tick is one second. within 2 seconds youre all but disabled via no power.
Sadly you do have a point. At first I thought what if EPS rate could work to counter act the drain but that would still end up as a binary system (drain either useless or OP) because of just how fast energy regenerates compared to how much there is. Just like with the generic Damage vs HP sustain is overly strong making the system impossible to correctly fix.
So yes there does need to be a cap on the drain. And really if you think about it ALL drains should have a cap. Right now drains are either overpowered (shutting down multiple subsystems) or hardly noticed (due to resists mitigating and the power regen speed). In addition there already are true disable abilities if that is your goal. Instead power drain should be a debuff as I believe it was originally intended.
So, allow flow capacitors to continue to boost drain amounts, that is fine. Allow subsystems to have a 'minimum energy level' they cannot be drained past based on the maximum energy that subsystem has and the power insulator skill level. Then drains may even be able to get a boost to be more effective as a debuff in both PvE and PvP. A simple example formula would look like this and could likely be improved upon:
(Max Power + Power Insulator Skill - 100) / (Max Power + Power Insulator Skill + 100) * Max Power = Min Power
Using that formula you would need at least 100 combined power and/or PI to avoid the subsystem from being shut down. If you had 100 skill in PI and 125 power in a subsystem your minimum amount would become 48. At 75 power and 100 PI it would be 20. At 50 power and 100 PI it would be 10.
Power drain could still be very effective as a target going down to 48 weapons / 20 shield / 10 engine / 10 aux would be debuffed pretty heavily. But the target would have options, an EPTX power and/or battery wouldn't give a full restore but it would help. Then even in PvE they could remove the quasi immunities that some NPCs have to power drains as well, a win win.
I wouldn't say FvK queues are dead tbh. I queue like 80% only for FvK and I get in matches pretty easily (EU evenings). What is true however, that majority of FvK games are simply "unfun". Partially because the incompetence or afk of my pug mates, partially because of all the trash klingons produce in space - including siphon drones.
I kinda miss the old times, Klingons flying mostly BoPs, moaning about the fed ball and such.
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Ah yes, the awesome fed ball when people would yell at the Feds for sticking together... And scatter volley was king... And before the rise of extend shields... Good times indeed.
"Who wants to be bait for the Klingons? Well protect ya we swear!"
If we just gave it to the feds none of this would be an issue.
True, Siphon Drones would suddenly be.... alright.
Which would be fine with me if we get some TB using pets too.
Then some other aspect of the game would take center stage as being OP, out of balance, etc. There is a 50%/50% chance its KDF related or a " My Cruiser sucks..." complaint.
Frankly, I'm just ready for the fixes to start rolling in AND making sense towards balance.
id rather face a siphon team then a runabout team. if you have TBR or EWP, you are immune to siphons. if all the escorts on your team for their second cannon skil used CSV1, its unlikely siphons would get anybody.
runabouts are worse, they chain tractor you for a longer duration then 90% of the player tractors, have frigate pet hitpoints, and launch as quickly as fighters. theres no way to quickly counter them at all.
There is a reason FvK queues are so dead atm. Siphon drones and Tractor Beam using Danubes are making the game unplayable.
Fixed that for you since we KDF find the danubes as bad as the Siphon drones in comparison.
Honestly though these two issues are hardly what is keeping the ques low. Its a great many unbalances in many areas both fed and KDF that make the FvK ques low.
Fixed that for you since we KDF find the danubes as bad as the Siphon drones in comparison.
Honestly though these two issues are hardly what is keeping the ques low. Its a great many unbalances in many areas both fed and KDF that make the FvK ques low.
I've been chain tractored by danubes as a KDF. That's why I run EWP with my heal build and I am looking at getting Theta radiation as well.
With Bops, I guess hit and run and Omega helps?
The thing is that it's easier to avoid being tractored than being siphoned. My Catbox can't reliably deal with them nor can some of my other ships. TBR doesn't work as well in my Catbox either. It's just too much of a slug to position properly. And I give up too much healing that helps my team stay in the fight. As a KDF, I don't have to give up anything in my healboat with the proper Doffs to deal with tractors.
I've been chain tractored by danubes as a KDF. That's why I run EWP with my heal build and I am looking at getting the Theta radiation as well.
With Bops, I guess hit and run and Omega helps?
The thing is that it's easier to avoid being tractored than being siphoned. My Catbox can't reliably deal with them nor can some of my other ships. TBR doesn't work as well in my Catbox either. It's just too much of a slug to position properly. And I give up too much healing that helps my team to combat them. As a KDF, I don't have to give up anything in my healboat with the proper Doffs to deal with tractors.
The TB Danubes, especially in carrier heavy teams, are the bane of the KDF player as much as the siphon drones, and a drain heavy team, is the bane of the feds.
They both can be countered or overcome with preperation and both will make your day suck if you are not prepared to fight them.
The Siphon Drones have a rebalance incomming becuase they caused such a ruckus and frankly they need it.
I am curious though if the Danubes will ever get a rebalance or if they are to continue having such high Hull for a pet, just becuase there are less KDF players to complain does not mean the issue is not present.
Then again lots of things needs balancing in STO. All we can do is wait and see.
Comments
Should post in the Tribble section where they "take all feedback into consideration" -giggles uncontrollably-
Each Drone drains a set amount per tic say 10.
Flow Capacitor skill increases the drain by say 30% so at 200 skill drain is 16.
Insulator skill resists a % of the drain with diminishing returns tacked on at the end if you want, just like armor works. So simple formula would be (Skill)/(100+Skill) = % resisted. At 100 skill you would get 50% resist or loose 8 per drain tic.
And lets make the drain work similar to polaron weapons so EPS can help too possibly.
What do you gain with this methodology?
1) Energy drains are never worthless if you have low Flow Capacitor skill vs high Resist skill
- In the above example the drain of 10 would become drain of 5 if 0 FC skill vs 100 I skill.
2) High resist will still be semi-effective against players with a high Flow Capacitor skill
- In the above example the drain of 10 would become drain of 11 if 350 FC skill vs 100 I skill
3) The system is no longer so binary in nature
Relative value/Opposed system mechanics work very very well and that is why nearly any PvP focused game heavily uses them. And then to make it even more fun add a 'resist penetration' sci console that lowers enemy sci resists by a % for shenanigans.
After more thinking (about my previous post) I realized that 4000 on BFI doffs then again 5 seconds later is to much, 1500-2000 shield heal then again 5 seconds later is a good idea but am still unsure about this.
Also Aceton beam dosen't need to be on the Fer'Jai Frigates the tricobats and chroiton torps are enough.
Also in my testing drones not catching up to the attacker is rare diogene0.
*What I mean is first deployment of three drone 1 immediatly drains, 5 seconds later drone 2 drains, another 5 seconds drone 3 and the cycle repeats if 1 drone dies then drone 1 immediatly, drone 2 7.5 seconds later. When all six drones deployed d1 immediatly, d2 2.5 seconds, d3 2.5 seconds after, etc.
so that 10 per tic is suddenly 30-60 because theres 3-6 drones from a single carrier and only a single bay. so if both bays launch 2 waves of 3 thats then 12 drones all taking 10 power per tick.
unlimited power drain. sure you could kill them, but that doesnt give you your power back, so by the time you kill them itll still be lower. and the the fresh drain takes from the lower number making it worse etc etc etc. no amount of resist will help because the drones just keep on draining.
there needs to be a low resistable drain and a HARD CAP on how much each drone takes. and then when the drone is destroyed an instant resupply of the power it drained, for the drones to not be overpowered.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
The numbers I used were hypothetical to show a mechanical system and relationship that works well nothing else.
thats not the point, replace that number with anything but 1 and thats still a serious amount of unlimited drain.
UNLIMITED drain. the UNLIMITED being the key point i was trying to make.
stick 5 in the power slow, thats 5-60 power per tick. each tick is one second. within 2 seconds youre all but disabled via no power.
Sadly you do have a point. At first I thought what if EPS rate could work to counter act the drain but that would still end up as a binary system (drain either useless or OP) because of just how fast energy regenerates compared to how much there is. Just like with the generic Damage vs HP sustain is overly strong making the system impossible to correctly fix.
So yes there does need to be a cap on the drain. And really if you think about it ALL drains should have a cap. Right now drains are either overpowered (shutting down multiple subsystems) or hardly noticed (due to resists mitigating and the power regen speed). In addition there already are true disable abilities if that is your goal. Instead power drain should be a debuff as I believe it was originally intended.
So, allow flow capacitors to continue to boost drain amounts, that is fine. Allow subsystems to have a 'minimum energy level' they cannot be drained past based on the maximum energy that subsystem has and the power insulator skill level. Then drains may even be able to get a boost to be more effective as a debuff in both PvE and PvP. A simple example formula would look like this and could likely be improved upon:
(Max Power + Power Insulator Skill - 100) / (Max Power + Power Insulator Skill + 100) * Max Power = Min Power
Using that formula you would need at least 100 combined power and/or PI to avoid the subsystem from being shut down. If you had 100 skill in PI and 125 power in a subsystem your minimum amount would become 48. At 75 power and 100 PI it would be 20. At 50 power and 100 PI it would be 10.
Power drain could still be very effective as a target going down to 48 weapons / 20 shield / 10 engine / 10 aux would be debuffed pretty heavily. But the target would have options, an EPTX power and/or battery wouldn't give a full restore but it would help. Then even in PvE they could remove the quasi immunities that some NPCs have to power drains as well, a win win.
Yeah, that's right.
Lol... make the issue worse so it's not an issue?
It might address the issue of the FvK queues or it might kill folks bothering to queue at all...
the latter. I would stop playing sto if feds got these before they were fixed. They're unfun.
True... 5 siphon carriers on each team would lock down the match completely...and indefinately...
There is a reason FvK queues are so dead atm. Siphon drones are making the game unplayable.
I kinda miss the old times, Klingons flying mostly BoPs, moaning about the fed ball and such.
"Who wants to be bait for the Klingons? Well protect ya we swear!"
Well, when I do get a FvK arena started....
...if I'm F, half of my team warps out after being siphoned.
...if I'm K, Half of the fed team warp out because one of my teammates is a siph'er
True, Siphon Drones would suddenly be.... alright.
Which would be fine with me if we get some TB using pets too.
Then some other aspect of the game would take center stage as being OP, out of balance, etc. There is a 50%/50% chance its KDF related or a " My Cruiser sucks..." complaint.
Frankly, I'm just ready for the fixes to start rolling in AND making sense towards balance.
R.I.P
runabouts are worse, they chain tractor you for a longer duration then 90% of the player tractors, have frigate pet hitpoints, and launch as quickly as fighters. theres no way to quickly counter them at all.
Fixed that for you since we KDF find the danubes as bad as the Siphon drones in comparison.
Honestly though these two issues are hardly what is keeping the ques low. Its a great many unbalances in many areas both fed and KDF that make the FvK ques low.
R.I.P
I've been chain tractored by danubes as a KDF. That's why I run EWP with my heal build and I am looking at getting Theta radiation as well.
With Bops, I guess hit and run and Omega helps?
The thing is that it's easier to avoid being tractored than being siphoned. My Catbox can't reliably deal with them nor can some of my other ships. TBR doesn't work as well in my Catbox either. It's just too much of a slug to position properly. And I give up too much healing that helps my team stay in the fight. As a KDF, I don't have to give up anything in my healboat with the proper Doffs to deal with tractors.
The TB Danubes, especially in carrier heavy teams, are the bane of the KDF player as much as the siphon drones, and a drain heavy team, is the bane of the feds.
They both can be countered or overcome with preperation and both will make your day suck if you are not prepared to fight them.
The Siphon Drones have a rebalance incomming becuase they caused such a ruckus and frankly they need it.
I am curious though if the Danubes will ever get a rebalance or if they are to continue having such high Hull for a pet, just becuase there are less KDF players to complain does not mean the issue is not present.
Then again lots of things needs balancing in STO. All we can do is wait and see.
R.I.P