I'm not talking about the drones, i've tried them and i know it's a bit too effective as it is. I was answering to someone telling that the tractor beam pets had to be nerfed. I assume this guy doesn't know that you need several tractor beams and a constand use of it if you want to immobilize a target for a few seconds in a match. A single tractor beam has little use since tacs are permabuffed (and buffs also allow to resist to debuff abilities, which is one of the major design flaw in this game). You will hardly catch them with their double attack pattern omega, evasive maneuvers, dilithium burst, etc. Or you need to use a ridiculous combo of several debuffs to get them immobilized for a few seconds. That's why you may need some pets to do the job.
Currently tractor beam pets are the only thing able to use the tractor beam efficiently in pvp, because the players'one is too limited in duration, or whatever, and since targets have permanent resists. I know some of you can be annoyed by them but it's their purpose, and as long as the buffs and anti debuff abilities are tied to the same powers it'll be a necessary evil if you want to see some scis in pvp.
If one day the devs create specific anti debuff powers providing no buff at all and remove all anti debuff power to current buffs then we may be able to start an interesting discussion about carrier pets but now it's one of the last working abilities scis have.
Well ok then about siphons.:o
But still danubes are not on the same level but still could do with toning down. You say you have trouble tractoring players? With 2 Tractors on my intrepid I didnt have much of a problem tbh, its about timing really. And pets don't really have much to do with science specifically.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Your Ramming Speed III deals 52098 (99235) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Remus.
But still danubes are not on the same level but still could do with toning down. You say you have trouble tractoring players? With 2 Tractors on my intrepid I didnt have much of a problem tbh, its about timing really. And pets don't really have much to do with science specifically.
Carriers are sci ships, and danubes are an interesting addition to the lack of good sci ability. I know it's all about timing but there are so many counters to sci debuffs, and especially to tractor beams, that you will only catch harmless flies with it.
also, when its a % of the power drained, how excatly is this done? is it a constantly refreshing number or just the inital power level when the drain is started? how do using extra power abilities effect it?
say you have 100 power in shields, you say the higher your power the less thats drained. so we'll say 10% of the 100 is drained.
is this a drain per second? or the total amount drained over the course of the draining period?
you also mention it drains faster as time goes and that resets after a "cycle" is complete.
how will this work if theres multiple pods draining the same target? would it in theory be possible to stagger the drains so the target is effectivly drained dry?
if theyre suffering a drain and they recieve a battery, would the extra power effect the % of the drain? (this hinders on weither or not the power drain % is effected at the time of each drain pulse or just when the inital drain is started).
am i making any sense here with my questions/concerns?
I still find tractors to be useful. I run two of them. People complain about it from time to time. Maybe it has to do with being spec'd in properly?
And yes, danubes need to be toned down. Not even close to the same level as siphon drones though.
Two purple Mk XII graviton consoles, the borg deflector, and graviton generator maxed out wouldn't be enough? :rolleyes:
It's not that, I just can't catch good escort players with my tractor beam without using another signicant amount of abilities, even if i wait for their attack pattern to end, etc. I know how to use the tractor beam but it just has way too many counters. That's why danubes are usefull and tbh necessary to act as a sci on the battlefield. At least you can immobilize good escorts for a few seconds and that might be enough if you forced them to burn all their other buffs/anti debuffs.
First off a couple things, carriers are not science ships.
Secondly, you're telling me that you want a single power to completely nullify a "buffed out" tactical ship doing its best to not be held still? How's that fair?
And hmm a power that's an anti debuff power you want? Gee.... I could have sworn that science captains have the only buff remover in the game? (Ann doffs not counted but if they were then well there's even more ways to remove them buffs)
And you call yourself a science captain? Please don't insult us actual science captains. Thanks.
If tractor beams were weak, I wouldn't be using them.
As a sci, you should probably slot all shield healing consoles. Run ST3 with two purple doffs, a copy of TSS, and a copy of ES. You're equal parts DPS, control, and healing.
My main char is a sci flying a carrier, and I'm sick of seeing players asking for nerfs of sci abilities and pets and then wondering why scis suck and are supposedly useless in pvp... :rolleyes:
I so agree with this sentiment! I have two sci's flying carriers (6 sci's total)...good thing i only pve or i'd be be really screwed on this plan. Borticus i love ya, but everytime you "fix" things for the pvp guys, its just killing us in pve too. Not sure how to fix the game to make it work for both sides pve/pvp other than having two different servers like most mmo's.
I don't really want to give up playing my sci officers, they do pretty darn well.....but your killing me here lol
"If everyone used Macs, we'd be working on how to get to Alpha Centauri rather than how to get to Mars."
I so agree with this sentiment! I have two sci's flying carriers (6 sci's total)...good thing i only pve or i'd be be really screwed on this plan. Borticus i love ya, but everytime you "fix" things for the pvp guys, its just killing us in pve too. Not sure how to fix the game to make it work for both sides pve/pvp other than having two different servers like most mmo's.
I don't really want to give up playing my sci officers, they do pretty darn well.....but your killing me here lol
I'm sorry, but the reason Science got nerfed into the ground was not because of PvPers, it was because of PvE'ers Kirking in PvP and then whining when they got curbstomped by a couple of science ships working together.
Join Date: Sep 2009
[23:35] Horta deals 1738411 (1538303) Toxic Damage to Centurion Engineer with Corrosive Acid.
First off a couple things, carriers are not science ships.
Secondly, you're telling me that you want a single power to completely nullify a "buffed out" tactical ship doing its best to not be held still? How's that fair?
And hmm a power that's an anti debuff power you want? Gee.... I could have sworn that science captains have the only buff remover in the game? (Ann doffs not counted but if they were then well there's even more ways to remove them buffs)
And you call yourself a science captain? Please don't insult us actual science captains. Thanks.
-Mai Kai the Science Guy-
No I want my powers to be effective even against a buffed target. Sounds fair, eh? I want my powers to do something, because his powers are doing something while mine are totally nullified without any other "annoying" consequence for my target but a dps buff (APO), a speed/turnrate buff (evasive), a dmg resistance buff (polarize), etc. He's buffed like mad and can ignore most of my debuffs. I call this a good deal but only for one side obviously, because his powers are doing something while mine have no effect.
I think you didn't get what I said, I was just saying that the problem with scis powers is that we face permanently immune targets. There are dozens of counters to science powers, I don't even want to make a list, it would be unending. So when you want to do *something* against one target you have to use a tremendous amount of abilities, tractor beam, SNB, subsystem targeting, a power drain if you're still using one, then a gravity well when his second wave of buffs are over, and of course one of those pay to win consoles if you want to hold if for more than one or two seconds before the third wave of buffs (here you have to use the tholian web or antimatter spread and so on).
That's why runabouts are almost necessary, they allow you to make something sci -immobilizing your target- during the very limited time it's not permabuffed. Yes it's annoying but it's almlost the only way to kill a good escort, ie taking it at 0 speed to remove all his defense bonus, especially with pay to win ships such as the bug. :rolleyes:
I'm sorry, but the reason Science got nerfed into the ground was not because of PvPers, it was because of PvE'ers Kirking in PvP and then whining when they got curbstomped by a couple of science ships working together.
No, i'm sorry, but you wrong, it has nothing to do with pve players going into pvp and getting stomped and then coming to the boards to complain.
Its about other pvp players getting stomped by something that was badly thought out in the first place....buffed and then nerfed and buffed again...etc etc etc
And you missed my point...its impossible to balance powers for pvp and pve..they are TWO different animals....its why most mmo's have separate servers for each type of game play...
"If everyone used Macs, we'd be working on how to get to Alpha Centauri rather than how to get to Mars."
You're both wrong, though beary less wrong. Science powers were "nerfed" into oblivion because Cryptic royally messed up when they implemented science resists. It was the PvPers, not the PvErs that raged against the science resists, fist when they were announced, then when they went on tribble, and then when they went to live despite our warnings.
Other powers, like gravity well and tyken's, we're doubly hit by the new skill tree.
No I want my powers to be effective even against a buffed target. Sounds fair, eh? I want my powers to do something, because his powers are doing something while mine are totally nullified without any other "annoying" consequence for my target but a dps buff (APO), a speed/turnrate buff (evasive), a dmg resistance buff (polarize), etc. He's buffed like mad and can ignore most of my debuffs. I call this a good deal but only for one side obviously, because his powers are doing something while mine have no effect.
I think you didn't get what I said, I was just saying that the problem with scis powers is that we face permanently immune targets. There are dozens of counters to science powers, I don't even want to make a list, it would be unending. So when you want to do *something* against one target you have to use a tremendous amount of abilities, tractor beam, SNB, subsystem targeting, a power drain if you're still using one, then a gravity well when his second wave of buffs are over, and of course one of those pay to win consoles if you want to hold if for more than one or two seconds before the third wave of buffs (here you have to use the tholian web or antimatter spread and so on).
That's why runabouts are almost necessary, they allow you to make something sci -immobilizing your target- during the very limited time it's not permabuffed. Yes it's annoying but it's almlost the only way to kill a good escort, ie taking it at 0 speed to remove all his defense bonus, especially with pay to win ships such as the bug. :rolleyes:
I see your point, but IMO you're wrong, and allow me to say why I think you're wrong. As a sci you have the subnuc, you have the tractor beam (you use those already from what I remember). When apo ends, tractor beam. When escort uses pol hull, subnuc. You can also put some tbr, add a vm, a tr (vm is horrible for escort since most don't have engi teams). I think you expect to wipe out an escort in few seconds. That isn't the point of a sci ship.
I use a recluse on my engi, in pvp, I only use the pets when I'm either in Kerrat with 5 on me, either when I see other pet spam that I can't deal on my own with. You really don't need all that junk to win, again, pets are part of the game and I'm not saying or implying not to use them, but you really can do great without them, even if its a little more work.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
also, when its a % of the power drained, how excatly is this done? is it a constantly refreshing number or just the inital power level when the drain is started? how do using extra power abilities effect it?
Every tick, it recalculates at the moment the drain is applied. This is how the "shallow bell curve" I originally mentioned comes to pass. Low % of a high value at first, then mid-mid, then high-low. And the lower your current power level, the less it can drain.
And using an "Emergency Power to X" ability will both hurt and help if you're under attack by Siphon Drones. It will increase your power, but the Drones' next attack tick will calculate its drain % off of your current (temporarily increased) power level.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
The only fear I have is that changing the drones might take them from "so broken it's basically cheating" to "just really, really OP," and that a lot of people who previously did not use siphon drones out of a sense of honor will begin to use them en masse. This could hurt FvK participation even more. Bort, the proposed changes certainly sound like a good starting place, but if the drones are still unbalanced after the change are you able to quickly apply further adjustments based on testing and feedback? Whether they need to be reduced further, or even buffed back up a bit?
No I want my powers to be effective even against a buffed target. Sounds fair, eh? I want my powers to do something, because his powers are doing something while mine are totally nullified without any other "annoying" consequence for my target but a dps buff (APO), a speed/turnrate buff (evasive), a dmg resistance buff (polarize), etc. He's buffed like mad and can ignore most of my debuffs. I call this a good deal but only for one side obviously, because his powers are doing something while mine have no effect.
I think you didn't get what I said, I was just saying that the problem with scis powers is that we face permanently immune targets. There are dozens of counters to science powers, I don't even want to make a list, it would be unending. So when you want to do *something* against one target you have to use a tremendous amount of abilities, tractor beam, SNB, subsystem targeting, a power drain if you're still using one, then a gravity well when his second wave of buffs are over, and of course one of those pay to win consoles if you want to hold if for more than one or two seconds before the third wave of buffs (here you have to use the tholian web or antimatter spread and so on).
That's why runabouts are almost necessary, they allow you to make something sci -immobilizing your target- during the very limited time it's not permabuffed. Yes it's annoying but it's almlost the only way to kill a good escort, ie taking it at 0 speed to remove all his defense bonus, especially with pay to win ships such as the bug. :rolleyes:
then they will complain that dispite all their buffs to prevent them from being held they still get held which will then cause a look to be taken at further buff their resists to the tractor beam etc etc, its the "we have bigger nuclear weapons then you do!" mentalitiy. this is not a good way to go.
if a target is giving you such a hard time with being held down, sub nuc him then kill him. if thats too much trouble, find a target thats squishier.
adapt, thats what we're always told to do. why not give it a shot? tractor beam not working for ya in holding them still? try grav well + shockwave, or beam target engines+tykens rift etc etc.
tractor beams shouldnt be as powerful as they are even now because theyre such a low level skill to take, theres no way a ensign skill should comletely nullify a ltcmdr or cmdr (attack pattern omega, im looking at you here) and polarize hull doesnt "completely" nullify it it does resist it.
theres only 2 powers to "counter" tractor beams anyways.
learn, play, adapt. if your swarm of tractor beams isnt enough for you then try the delta flyer with its useless shield drains, or the fighter for the lots of extra (-chuckles-) dps they bring.
Every tick, it recalculates at the moment the drain is applied. This is how the "shallow bell curve" I originally mentioned comes to pass. Low % of a high value at first, then mid-mid, then high-low. And the lower your current power level, the less it can drain.
And using an "Emergency Power to X" ability will both hurt and help if you're under attack by Siphon Drones. It will increase your power, but the Drones' next attack tick will calculate its drain % off of your current (temporarily increased) power level.
is there going to be at least a "hidden" hard cap that the siphion drones cant drain past? to prevent someone from chaning them on someone and just draining him dry?
maybe say, not more then 175 total power can ever be drained by power siphion drones?
Sorry Jman couldn't resist. You said Carrier, Pet Dps with a straight face.
Pets Suck as anything but screen clutter. Aside from Danubes perma chronitoning and tractoring your face off, and siphon drones perma draining you to death.
The problem is, Power insulators doesn't work with "diminished ability" it works 0. Nada Zippo, Zilch, Nein.
Pets should Never be more effective at a given role than an actual Boff Skill, which is what we have here with the Drones, vs say Esiphon, or TR3. (to say nothing of TR2)
I think the Drones, collectively should equal an Energy Siphon, and be clearable as such. Not as some god awful perma suck you down and kill you /faceroll monstrosity that they are now.
No I want my powers to be effective even against a buffed target. Sounds fair, eh? I want my powers to do something, because his powers are doing something while mine are totally nullified without any other "annoying" consequence for my target but a dps buff (APO), a speed/turnrate buff (evasive), a dmg resistance buff (polarize), etc. He's buffed like mad and can ignore most of my debuffs. I call this a good deal but only for one side obviously, because his powers are doing something while mine have no effect.
Ignoring how off topic this is, no, it's not fair that you want your movement debuffs to work when APO and PH are up. It's also not fair to say that your all of your powers don't do something because some of them are countered. A doff'd VM will give an escort fits. TBR turns APO into a liability because they will stay in range and eat every pulse for damage directly to the hull.
I think you didn't get what I said, I was just saying that the problem with scis powers is that we face permanently immune targets. There are dozens of counters to science powers, I don't even want to make a list, it would be unending.
Right, and an escort can't load them all. PH means probably 1 more slot for sci. No HE means they're not putting out plasma fires. No Sci Team means sub-nuc hurts longer and VM comes back. Tac Team means no Eng team for disables, so they have to go to sub-system specific batteries.
So when you want to do *something* against one target you have to use a tremendous amount of abilities, tractor beam, SNB, subsystem targeting, a power drain if you're still using one, then a gravity well when his second wave of buffs are over, and of course one of those pay to win consoles if you want to hold if for more than one or two seconds before the third wave of buffs (here you have to use the tholian web or antimatter spread and so on).
Here, we agree. But the devil is in the details. You do need to use a tremendous number of abilities to pop a talented escort with a good buff rotation.
That's why runabouts are almost necessary, they allow you to make something sci -immobilizing your target- during the very limited time it's not permabuffed. Yes it's annoying but it's almlost the only way to kill a good escort, ie taking it at 0 speed to remove all his defense bonus, especially with pay to win ships such as the bug. :rolleyes:
Oh, so close! Yet so wrong. You're ignoring the implications (not to mention the logic) of "the very limited time it's not permabuffed." You're seeing the danubes nab people in the holes in their rotation because they are applying almost continual tractor beams. You're coming to the false conclusion that the runabouts are "almost necessary." Those holes in their rotation exist, and you can apply your own tractor beam if you are watching their buff bar carefully. Further, you can widen those holes by forcing them to choose conflicting immunities. Stack some plasma fires so they have to use HE, and there will be no PH to fill the downtime between APO.
A clean buff rotation is a skill, and can only really be countered by skill (SNB aside). This is, I think, as it should be. You're seeing the danube 100% uptime TB snagging them occasionally but failing to build on it. You can't go straight to denying them their defense score without first denying them their immunities, position before submission as they say. Those danubes are a crutch, denying you the ability to become a more skilled player.
To bring this back on topic at least a little, I think Siphons and danubes end up in the same conversation because they remove or reduce the effects of skill, build, and chance. I know when APO is going to run out, and there's a little suspense to see if anybody on the other team notices. Am I going to spill my tea like Sulu in his Excelsior or am I going to get away with being vulnerable? If somebody is on their toes and has a TB off cooldown then I'm going to pay for it. With danubes in the fight I have a TB on me continually so things become inevitable, just like the current Drones.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
To bring this back on topic at least a little, I think Siphons and danubes end up in the same conversation because they remove or reduce the effects of skill, build, and chance. I know when APO is going to run out, and there's a little suspense to see if anybody on the other team notices. Am I going to spill my tea like Sulu in his Excelsior or am I going to get away with being vulnerable? If somebody is on their toes and has a TB off cooldown then I'm going to pay for it. With danubes in the fight I have a TB on me continually so things become inevitable, just like the current Drones.
Since no Siphon thread is complete without a discussion regarding the Danube Runabouts, I may as well mention this:
The group-wide lockout period caused by any Runabout Hangar Pet activating its Tractor Beam has been increased from 6sec to 15sec. (Remember, this only affects other Runabout Hangar Pets within 4km of the one that uses its Tractor Beam.)
It's still not a perfect fix, but it should alleviate the pain a bit.
We're looking into using a sort of 'group AI' to address Runabouts more accurately, but it's a complete redesign of how they function, and ties in to the complicated AI carrier commands.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Since no Siphon thread is complete without a discussion regarding the Danube Runabouts, I may as well mention this:
The group-wide lockout period caused by any Runabout Hangar Pet activating its Tractor Beam has been increased from 6sec to 15sec. (Remember, this only affects other Runabout Hangar Pets within 4km of the one that uses its Tractor Beam.)
It's still not a perfect fix, but it should alleviate the pain a bit.
We're looking into using a sort of 'group AI' to address Runabouts more accurately, but it's a complete redesign of how they function, and ties in to the complicated AI carrier commands.
Good to know that this issue is still on your mind and is being looked at. Thumbs up.
Since no Siphon thread is complete without a discussion regarding the Danube Runabouts, I may as well mention this:
The group-wide lockout period caused by any Runabout Hangar Pet activating its Tractor Beam has been increased from 6sec to 15sec. (Remember, this only affects other Runabout Hangar Pets within 4km of the one that uses its Tractor Beam.)
It's still not a perfect fix, but it should alleviate the pain a bit.
We're looking into using a sort of 'group AI' to address Runabouts more accurately, but it's a complete redesign of how they function, and ties in to the complicated AI carrier commands.
To bring this back on topic at least a little, I think Siphons and danubes end up in the same conversation because they remove or reduce the effects of skill, build, and chance. I know when APO is going to run out, and there's a little suspense to see if anybody on the other team notices. Am I going to spill my tea like Sulu in his Excelsior or am I going to get away with being vulnerable? If somebody is on their toes and has a TB off cooldown then I'm going to pay for it. With danubes in the fight I have a TB on me continually so things become inevitable, just like the current Drones.
But with the attack pattern doffs, you can have an almost permanent APO or other kind of immunity. I see everyone complaining about the SNB doffs but these ones are also really, really a pain and gives scis a headeache. :rolleyes:
Since no Siphon thread is complete without a discussion regarding the Danube Runabouts, I may as well mention this:
The group-wide lockout period caused by any Runabout Hangar Pet activating its Tractor Beam has been increased from 6sec to 15sec. (Remember, this only affects other Runabout Hangar Pets within 4km of the one that uses its Tractor Beam.)
It's still not a perfect fix, but it should alleviate the pain a bit.
We're looking into using a sort of 'group AI' to address Runabouts more accurately, but it's a complete redesign of how they function, and ties in to the complicated AI carrier commands.
cool sounds good. setting them up to sequentially lock on to you, and making them too durable to kill in a timely manner with 3/4 turrets or beam arrays is my main complaint.
also their hold should be somewhere between tractor mines and what they have now. tractor mines are kinda worthless if the target has more then 50 engine energy, i hate to say they could use a slight buff, compared to other tractor spam. or the runabouts should be drug along with what they snare, not sure how such a small thing can stop a full size ship cold.
Since no Siphon thread is complete without a discussion regarding the Danube Runabouts, I may as well mention this:
The group-wide lockout period caused by any Runabout Hangar Pet activating its Tractor Beam has been increased from 6sec to 15sec. (Remember, this only affects other Runabout Hangar Pets within 4km of the one that uses its Tractor Beam.)
It's still not a perfect fix, but it should alleviate the pain a bit.
We're looking into using a sort of 'group AI' to address Runabouts more accurately, but it's a complete redesign of how they function, and ties in to the complicated AI carrier commands.
This is a change in the right direction... however not quite far enough to call it fixed really.
I mean someone decided to give advanced danubes tractor 2... 14 second duration + 15 second lockout. Hmmm you saved us 1 second I guess.
But with the attack pattern doffs, you can have an almost permanent APO or other kind of immunity. I see everyone complaining about the SNB doffs but these ones are also really, really a pain and gives scis a headeache. :rolleyes:
Attack patterns doffs don't eat into global cool down, like 3 purple attack patterns doffs will push (each by 15% less) the recharge time (cooldown) from 1 min to a little over 30 sec. Global is 30 sec. The benefit they bring is that you only need 1 apo rather than 2, and usually an escort will use apo3 with crf2 in this case (which should bring more spike damage that apo1 with crf3 - at least from what I remember).
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Hmm.. The changes sound interesting. Not exactly a nerf to Siphon Drones, but a way to at least improve making them less powerful right out of the gate, but if they sit long enough on a target they are effective.. Not bad....
How ever being how squishy they are at the start (before adding in Flight Deck Officers to infinate spawn them) I hope that doesn't make them less viable since they'd need that 5 Seconds to ramp up to full power.
But I will be happier if you can actually use EPS from an Engineer to counter Subsystem Drains. That and Nadion Inversion for Weapon power drains. (Or maybe change Nadion Inversion to affect all system drains) But that's another Idea for another thread.
All in all, looks good on Paper. Will look foward to testing it to see how it pans out in play tests.
PS: Marauder Shuttle Boarding Party Effects can't be 100% Cleared from Tac Team. At least not the system shutdowns.
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Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Leech is fine, I just had this confirmed by a very reliable source . It's also resisted by power insulators. If you're speced right, you shouldn't see more than 5 less power, which can be easily dealt with. It also doesn't stack as it used to, meaning if you are fired at by more leech equipped ships, you only get 1 leech debuff and not more. As far as I know, this has been in place months ago, but some ppl are just using this argument for no reason. As I'm sure they'll continue complaining about other addressed issues.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Comments
Well ok then about siphons.:o
But still danubes are not on the same level but still could do with toning down. You say you have trouble tractoring players? With 2 Tractors on my intrepid I didnt have much of a problem tbh, its about timing really. And pets don't really have much to do with science specifically.
Your Ramming Speed III deals 52098 (99235) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Remus.
Carriers are sci ships, and danubes are an interesting addition to the lack of good sci ability. I know it's all about timing but there are so many counters to sci debuffs, and especially to tractor beams, that you will only catch harmless flies with it.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
And yes, danubes need to be toned down. Not even close to the same level as siphon drones though.
speaking of which....
O:)
also, when its a % of the power drained, how excatly is this done? is it a constantly refreshing number or just the inital power level when the drain is started? how do using extra power abilities effect it?
say you have 100 power in shields, you say the higher your power the less thats drained. so we'll say 10% of the 100 is drained.
is this a drain per second? or the total amount drained over the course of the draining period?
you also mention it drains faster as time goes and that resets after a "cycle" is complete.
how will this work if theres multiple pods draining the same target? would it in theory be possible to stagger the drains so the target is effectivly drained dry?
if theyre suffering a drain and they recieve a battery, would the extra power effect the % of the drain? (this hinders on weither or not the power drain % is effected at the time of each drain pulse or just when the inital drain is started).
am i making any sense here with my questions/concerns?
Two purple Mk XII graviton consoles, the borg deflector, and graviton generator maxed out wouldn't be enough? :rolleyes:
It's not that, I just can't catch good escort players with my tractor beam without using another signicant amount of abilities, even if i wait for their attack pattern to end, etc. I know how to use the tractor beam but it just has way too many counters. That's why danubes are usefull and tbh necessary to act as a sci on the battlefield. At least you can immobilize good escorts for a few seconds and that might be enough if you forced them to burn all their other buffs/anti debuffs.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Secondly, you're telling me that you want a single power to completely nullify a "buffed out" tactical ship doing its best to not be held still? How's that fair?
And hmm a power that's an anti debuff power you want? Gee.... I could have sworn that science captains have the only buff remover in the game? (Ann doffs not counted but if they were then well there's even more ways to remove them buffs)
And you call yourself a science captain? Please don't insult us actual science captains. Thanks.
-Mai Kai the Science Guy-
As a sci, you should probably slot all shield healing consoles. Run ST3 with two purple doffs, a copy of TSS, and a copy of ES. You're equal parts DPS, control, and healing.
I so agree with this sentiment! I have two sci's flying carriers (6 sci's total)...good thing i only pve or i'd be be really screwed on this plan. Borticus i love ya, but everytime you "fix" things for the pvp guys, its just killing us in pve too. Not sure how to fix the game to make it work for both sides pve/pvp other than having two different servers like most mmo's.
I don't really want to give up playing my sci officers, they do pretty darn well.....but your killing me here lol
I'm sorry, but the reason Science got nerfed into the ground was not because of PvPers, it was because of PvE'ers Kirking in PvP and then whining when they got curbstomped by a couple of science ships working together.
[23:35] Horta deals 1738411 (1538303) Toxic Damage to Centurion Engineer with Corrosive Acid.
No I want my powers to be effective even against a buffed target. Sounds fair, eh? I want my powers to do something, because his powers are doing something while mine are totally nullified without any other "annoying" consequence for my target but a dps buff (APO), a speed/turnrate buff (evasive), a dmg resistance buff (polarize), etc. He's buffed like mad and can ignore most of my debuffs. I call this a good deal but only for one side obviously, because his powers are doing something while mine have no effect.
I think you didn't get what I said, I was just saying that the problem with scis powers is that we face permanently immune targets. There are dozens of counters to science powers, I don't even want to make a list, it would be unending. So when you want to do *something* against one target you have to use a tremendous amount of abilities, tractor beam, SNB, subsystem targeting, a power drain if you're still using one, then a gravity well when his second wave of buffs are over, and of course one of those pay to win consoles if you want to hold if for more than one or two seconds before the third wave of buffs (here you have to use the tholian web or antimatter spread and so on).
That's why runabouts are almost necessary, they allow you to make something sci -immobilizing your target- during the very limited time it's not permabuffed. Yes it's annoying but it's almlost the only way to kill a good escort, ie taking it at 0 speed to remove all his defense bonus, especially with pay to win ships such as the bug. :rolleyes:
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
No, i'm sorry, but you wrong, it has nothing to do with pve players going into pvp and getting stomped and then coming to the boards to complain.
Its about other pvp players getting stomped by something that was badly thought out in the first place....buffed and then nerfed and buffed again...etc etc etc
And you missed my point...its impossible to balance powers for pvp and pve..they are TWO different animals....its why most mmo's have separate servers for each type of game play...
Other powers, like gravity well and tyken's, we're doubly hit by the new skill tree.
I see your point, but IMO you're wrong, and allow me to say why I think you're wrong. As a sci you have the subnuc, you have the tractor beam (you use those already from what I remember). When apo ends, tractor beam. When escort uses pol hull, subnuc. You can also put some tbr, add a vm, a tr (vm is horrible for escort since most don't have engi teams). I think you expect to wipe out an escort in few seconds. That isn't the point of a sci ship.
I use a recluse on my engi, in pvp, I only use the pets when I'm either in Kerrat with 5 on me, either when I see other pet spam that I can't deal on my own with. You really don't need all that junk to win, again, pets are part of the game and I'm not saying or implying not to use them, but you really can do great without them, even if its a little more work.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Every tick, it recalculates at the moment the drain is applied. This is how the "shallow bell curve" I originally mentioned comes to pass. Low % of a high value at first, then mid-mid, then high-low. And the lower your current power level, the less it can drain.
And using an "Emergency Power to X" ability will both hurt and help if you're under attack by Siphon Drones. It will increase your power, but the Drones' next attack tick will calculate its drain % off of your current (temporarily increased) power level.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
then they will complain that dispite all their buffs to prevent them from being held they still get held which will then cause a look to be taken at further buff their resists to the tractor beam etc etc, its the "we have bigger nuclear weapons then you do!" mentalitiy. this is not a good way to go.
if a target is giving you such a hard time with being held down, sub nuc him then kill him. if thats too much trouble, find a target thats squishier.
adapt, thats what we're always told to do. why not give it a shot? tractor beam not working for ya in holding them still? try grav well + shockwave, or beam target engines+tykens rift etc etc.
tractor beams shouldnt be as powerful as they are even now because theyre such a low level skill to take, theres no way a ensign skill should comletely nullify a ltcmdr or cmdr (attack pattern omega, im looking at you here) and polarize hull doesnt "completely" nullify it it does resist it.
theres only 2 powers to "counter" tractor beams anyways.
learn, play, adapt. if your swarm of tractor beams isnt enough for you then try the delta flyer with its useless shield drains, or the fighter for the lots of extra (-chuckles-) dps they bring.
is there going to be at least a "hidden" hard cap that the siphion drones cant drain past? to prevent someone from chaning them on someone and just draining him dry?
maybe say, not more then 175 total power can ever be drained by power siphion drones?
Sorry Jman couldn't resist. You said Carrier, Pet Dps with a straight face.
Pets Suck as anything but screen clutter. Aside from Danubes perma chronitoning and tractoring your face off, and siphon drones perma draining you to death.
The problem is, Power insulators doesn't work with "diminished ability" it works 0. Nada Zippo, Zilch, Nein.
Pets should Never be more effective at a given role than an actual Boff Skill, which is what we have here with the Drones, vs say Esiphon, or TR3. (to say nothing of TR2)
I think the Drones, collectively should equal an Energy Siphon, and be clearable as such. Not as some god awful perma suck you down and kill you /faceroll monstrosity that they are now.
A clean buff rotation is a skill, and can only really be countered by skill (SNB aside). This is, I think, as it should be. You're seeing the danube 100% uptime TB snagging them occasionally but failing to build on it. You can't go straight to denying them their defense score without first denying them their immunities, position before submission as they say. Those danubes are a crutch, denying you the ability to become a more skilled player.
To bring this back on topic at least a little, I think Siphons and danubes end up in the same conversation because they remove or reduce the effects of skill, build, and chance. I know when APO is going to run out, and there's a little suspense to see if anybody on the other team notices. Am I going to spill my tea like Sulu in his Excelsior or am I going to get away with being vulnerable? If somebody is on their toes and has a TB off cooldown then I'm going to pay for it. With danubes in the fight I have a TB on me continually so things become inevitable, just like the current Drones.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Very good point you make there Redricky.
The group-wide lockout period caused by any Runabout Hangar Pet activating its Tractor Beam has been increased from 6sec to 15sec. (Remember, this only affects other Runabout Hangar Pets within 4km of the one that uses its Tractor Beam.)
It's still not a perfect fix, but it should alleviate the pain a bit.
We're looking into using a sort of 'group AI' to address Runabouts more accurately, but it's a complete redesign of how they function, and ties in to the complicated AI carrier commands.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
But with the attack pattern doffs, you can have an almost permanent APO or other kind of immunity. I see everyone complaining about the SNB doffs but these ones are also really, really a pain and gives scis a headeache. :rolleyes:
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
cool sounds good. setting them up to sequentially lock on to you, and making them too durable to kill in a timely manner with 3/4 turrets or beam arrays is my main complaint.
also their hold should be somewhere between tractor mines and what they have now. tractor mines are kinda worthless if the target has more then 50 engine energy, i hate to say they could use a slight buff, compared to other tractor spam. or the runabouts should be drug along with what they snare, not sure how such a small thing can stop a full size ship cold.
what about maco? leach has drain has a cap now doesn't it? but it can boost you more when buffed i believe.
This is a change in the right direction... however not quite far enough to call it fixed really.
I mean someone decided to give advanced danubes tractor 2... 14 second duration + 15 second lockout. Hmmm you saved us 1 second I guess.
Attack patterns doffs don't eat into global cool down, like 3 purple attack patterns doffs will push (each by 15% less) the recharge time (cooldown) from 1 min to a little over 30 sec. Global is 30 sec. The benefit they bring is that you only need 1 apo rather than 2, and usually an escort will use apo3 with crf2 in this case (which should bring more spike damage that apo1 with crf3 - at least from what I remember).
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
^^ read that again.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
How ever being how squishy they are at the start (before adding in Flight Deck Officers to infinate spawn them) I hope that doesn't make them less viable since they'd need that 5 Seconds to ramp up to full power.
But I will be happier if you can actually use EPS from an Engineer to counter Subsystem Drains. That and Nadion Inversion for Weapon power drains. (Or maybe change Nadion Inversion to affect all system drains) But that's another Idea for another thread.
All in all, looks good on Paper. Will look foward to testing it to see how it pans out in play tests.
PS: Marauder Shuttle Boarding Party Effects can't be 100% Cleared from Tac Team. At least not the system shutdowns.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Leech is fine, I just had this confirmed by a very reliable source
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...