Most of the PvE perception of the cruiser being subpar lies in players false expectations and bad gameplay design for combat and mission completion.
For PvP, I have no idea what players are thinking as I see Cruiser do very well all the time when run by a competant player.
Upon the first point shown here I have to disagree as it contradicts the point you made on the subject earlier which I do agree with (poor mission design).
On your second point I do agree, none of my build are perfect, however even my cruiser can survive in 1 on 1 PvP and sometimes come out on top even against a superior opponent, they ALL have some or other fault in their build (again, not saying I'm perfect, I usually have more flaws than them) which I will ALWAYS exploit when it makes itself known to me (some ability they haven't countered or a manoeuvre they don't expect, more often than not its warp plasma).
However the same build in PvE doesn't do quite so well... (read: "does OK")
Upon the first point shown here I have to disagree as it contradicts the point you made on the subject earlier which I do agree with (poor mission design).
I said the same thing again.
The perception of Cruisers sucking is in part in the players heads and also can be blaimed on the poor mission mechanics that do not favor any method to completion but outright damage production against unthinking over HP buffed NPC's.
Cruisers suck is an illusion. They are awesome when done properly regardless of Toon choice of user. One just has to know how things work (which is hard since something breaks at every patch) and how to use said things toegther to accomplish ones goal.
Thats how those Uber Escorts tank so well and those rare tactical Cruisers kill so well.
They know what to use when and how.
For example, If you run a Engineer in a Assualt Cruiser -Retrofit, you would want to time your nadion inversion, EPTS ability, high weapons power (like past 125), DEM to do massive damage and suffer no loss in Weapons power for a short time. It can even be done with Beam Overload or Bfaw.
Or save your attacks until you can trap the opponent with EWP, TB or somesuch then use it.
Frankly I'm starting to think that the bulk of players in STO just expect to load up everything they think is good and mash buttons in the belief that that is all that is needed to winn a fight.
Frankly I'm starting to think that the bulk of players in STO just expect to load up everything they think is good and mash buttons in the belief that that is all that is needed to winn a fight.
And this is why I will always suck at PvP...
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I said the same thing again.
The perception of Cruisers sucking is in part in the players heads and also can be blaimed on the poor mission mechanics that do not favor any method to completion but outright damage production against unthinking over HP buffed NPC's.
Cruisers suck is an illusion. They are awesome when done properly regardless of Toon choice of user. One just has to know how things work (which is hard since something breaks at every patch) and how to use said things toegther to accomplish ones goal.
Thats how those Uber Escorts tank so well and those rare tactical Cruisers kill so well.
They know what to use when and how.
For example, If you run a Engineer in a Assualt Cruiser -Retrofit, you would want to time your nadion inversion, EPTS ability, high weapons power (like past 125), DEM to do massive damage and suffer no loss in Weapons power for a short time. It can even be done with Beam Overload or Bfaw.
Or save your attacks until you can trap the opponent with EWP, TB or somesuch then use it.
Frankly I'm starting to think that the bulk of players in STO just expect to load up everything they think is good and mash buttons in the belief that that is all that is needed to win a fight.
Ok, I can see that for the most part we agree, I think it could be made a little easier for the 'non-specialised builds' to do a fair amount of damage without the 'specialised builds' being overpowered even if this is accomplished by changing the range at which Beams are most effective or by increasing Beam efficiency (lower beam power drain and/increasing cruiser power drain resistance) I confess I don't run the best cruisers or the best escort (though I have min/maxed my tac for escorts ) but both are okay in PvP
I have sustained damage, sustained low damage when not buffed and even EPTW only brings that up to 500 damage per hit. using the same criteria so what are your damage figures?
That is the way it should be, and the way it was designed to be. But in PvE where even an escort can yo-yo tank the vast majority of the content their burst DPS turns into sustained DPS and screws everything up.
I say give the ESCORTS some of that good'ol Cruiser tanking if the Cruisers are to get some buffed up firepower.
If we are gonna blurr the lines to satisfy player desires then blur them in both directions or not at all.
right on.. or take away cruiser hull to match their increase in firepower... you see guys, something has to give if you get a buff... there are cruiser tanks out there who cannot be brought down easily by even 3 escorts. Again, I think you don't know how to play the game and recognize the nuances that make a cruiser class, a cruiser class.
The defiant was made to defend against the borg. It is supposed to be heavily armored.
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right on.. or take away cruiser hull to match their increase in firepower... you see guys, something has to give if you get a buff... there are cruiser tanks out there who cannot be brought down easily by even 3 escorts. Again, I think you don't know how to play the game and recognize the nuances that make a cruiser class, a cruiser class.
The defiant was made to defend against the borg. It is supposed to be heavily armored.
I don't think you buffing the second lowest damage and dps output weapon group is going to affect the game in such a way as to make it suddenly unbalanced.
Using a Galaxy X with 4 purple Type 10 DHC fore and 4 crappy white type 10 turrets in back I can out dps a Galaxy X running 6 type 12 beam, two torp, dual EPtW. Or 7 Beams 1 torp, or 6 beams 2 DBB. 6 beams 2 DHC. By about a thousand.
So I'd imagine that if I managed to upgrade my DHC+Turret setup to the same level as my Beam/DBB setup and optimize my cannon play, that number would jump upwards of 2,000 or maybe even 2,500.
CRF provides a larger increase in damage output compared to any other Tactical ability in the game. FAW is gimped for single target DPS if there is another ship, but incredibly capable if there is just one ship and the appropriate abilities have been used. BO is a one and done that then gimps our dps for the next few shots or cycles, but can crit for over 12K.
As for those Cruiser Tanks that can take on 3 Escorts and not die. Neither will those Escorts. But having played that kind of a build myself in PvP I can tell you, you die from bleedthrough anyways.
As for those Cruiser Tanks that can take on 3 Escorts and not die. Neither will those Escorts. But having played that kind of a build myself in PvP I can tell you, you die from bleedthrough anyways.
Actually, I'd say I die more from boredom and Sub-Nukes more than bleed-thru. There's one annoying B'rel build with transphasic cluster torpedoes and AP:Alpha that will kill me with bleed thru but I see that ship once in a blue moon.
My 2c. Tie heals and BOFF team abilities to crew compliment.
Cruisers have 2 thousand or so souls on board yet they die off quicker in a cruiser and can't effect repairs better or faster than an escort with 20 people on board.
How can you send an engi/tac/sci team to repair your ship if you have no crew left?
Alter this and escorts become more squishy and cruisers more tanky.
Sci ships are perhaps the middle ground where they'd stay the same heal capability wise.
Check this out. I was in a PVP Capture & Hold match today. I was kind of late to the battle so everyon else was busy battling and I had no teammates so I wandered and destroyed a Galaxy pet sauser, pissing off it's owner. Me and this Galaxy-R was battling the whole match killing neither. He was in the battle section Galaxy using Borg/Maco setup with temporal gear, and he was armed with polarized phaser beams and a transphasic torpedo cluster. He could out manuvered me so he stayed on my rear attacking. My rear is just all beams and I couldn't damage him past 96% without his autonimous regeneration activating puting him back at 100%. His shile would not wear down for anything. All that being said, he didn't do much to me either, even while slowing me down to a crawl with his temporal blast, and I'm not using Borg/ Maco TRIBBLE. We just battled till the end of the match. He told me how slow I was and I told him how much of a useless brick he was. The fact that he can't arm cannons made him less of a threat to me. I have been in the same type of battle with a Wells Class, he had the temp stuff, Borg/ Maco setup with Dual Cannons. He tore me up and I couldn't do anything to him. All i could do was run, using Deuturium reserves. The clear difference is that the Wells had Dual cannons and boosted damage mods, multipliers, and the Galaxy-R has no mods or mutipliers for dps, and can't arm DC. Beams are totally garbage in this game. The only type ship that can do well with them are science ships because they are better at targeting subsystems.
Check this out. I was in a PVP Capture & Hold match today. I was kind of late to the battle so everyon else was busy battling and I had no teammates so I wandered and destroyed a Galaxy pet sauser, pissing off it's owner. Me and this Galaxy-R was battling the whole match killing neither. He was in the battle section Galaxy using Borg/Maco setup with temporal gear, and he was armed with polarized phaser beams and a transphasic torpedo cluster. He could out manuvered me so he stayed on my rear attacking. My rear is just all beams and I couldn't damage him past 96% without his autonimous regeneration activating puting him back at 100%. His shile would not wear down for anything. All that being said, he didn't do much to me either, even while slowing me down to a crawl with his temporal blast, and I'm not using Borg/ Maco TRIBBLE. We just battled till the end of the match. He told me how slow I was and I told him how much of a useless brick he was. The fact that he can't arm cannons made him less of a threat to me. I have been in the same type of battle with a Wells Class, he had the temp stuff, Borg/ Maco setup with Dual Cannons. He tore me up and I couldn't do anything to him. All i could do was run, using Deuturium reserves. The clear difference is that the Wells had Dual cannons and boosted damage mods, multipliers, and the Galaxy-R has no mods or mutipliers for dps, and can't arm DC. Beams are totally garbage in this game. The only type ship that can do well with them are science ships because they are better at targeting subsystems.
I feel that you could boost Beam Array Damage to the same levels as DHC, drop their power consumption to 8 and increase their cycle time. Eliminate DBB from the game all together.
Reduce the cycle time and decrease the power consumption to 7 on DHC's, and the DHC would still be the superior DPS option due to their better shield penetration, stat stacking and more effective CRF and CSV abilities.
For an Escort getting caught in a Cruiser broadside would be a serious concern, even so that doesn't change their tactics when fighting a Cruiser, just reinforces them.
Check this out. I was in a PVP Capture & Hold match today. I was kind of late to the battle so everyon else was busy battling and I had no teammates so I wandered and destroyed a Galaxy pet sauser, pissing off it's owner. Me and this Galaxy-R was battling the whole match killing neither. He was in the battle section Galaxy using Borg/Maco setup with temporal gear, and he was armed with polarized phaser beams and a transphasic torpedo cluster. He could out manuvered me so he stayed on my rear attacking. My rear is just all beams and I couldn't damage him past 96% without his autonimous regeneration activating puting him back at 100%. His shile would not wear down for anything. All that being said, he didn't do much to me either, even while slowing me down to a crawl with his temporal blast, and I'm not using Borg/ Maco TRIBBLE. We just battled till the end of the match. He told me how slow I was and I told him how much of a useless brick he was. The fact that he can't arm cannons made him less of a threat to me. I have been in the same type of battle with a Wells Class, he had the temp stuff, Borg/ Maco setup with Dual Cannons. He tore me up and I couldn't do anything to him. All i could do was run, using Deuturium reserves. The clear difference is that the Wells had Dual cannons and boosted damage mods, multipliers, and the Galaxy-R has no mods or mutipliers for dps, and can't arm DC. Beams are totally garbage in this game. The only type ship that can do well with them are science ships because they are better at targeting subsystems.
well fisrt, 2 cruisers (i assume you used a cruiser too) will allways engage in endless battle with each other. Even if both have close to no skill or idea of setup.
second, the mobius killed you because of your own incapability to equip superior gear, which the maco borg combo just is for any ship, especially cruisers.
and 3rd, that guy probably didn't even need to be in a mobius ship to rip you a new one.
and yes, based on what i read about your pvp experiance and general postings, it is save to say for me you are at best a below average player...a captain kirk, as many like to call those players.
If you need to run in a cruiser from an escort...you are doing something horribly wrong.
A) superior gear should not be so superior to give one player decisive advantage over other. One should still be competitive (with more skill, but still) with Mk X/Mk XI gear gained on missions or bought in exchange. STO fails here;
if an escorts pilot knows what he is doing, then he is invulnerable to the cruiser. It does not have enough firepower to blast through even most basic selfbuff like TT1 and EPtS1 with full broadside. And after escort get's on it's six then cruiser can use maks half of his firepower while still needing to deal with all/most of an escort. Most of what cruiser can do is to force escort to disengage with no ability to follow up and end the job.
Cruisers should not die to one escort, even two. But their inability to kill an escort even in 1v1 is making them rather silly choice unless you are healer at hart and want to support the group and do nothing else.
A) superior gear should not be so superior to give one player decisive advantage over other. One should still be competitive (with more skill, but still) with Mk X/Mk XI gear gained on missions or bought in exchange. STO fails here;
if an escorts pilot knows what he is doing, then he is invulnerable to the cruiser. It does not have enough firepower to blast through even most basic selfbuff like TT1 and EPtS1 with full broadside. And after escort get's on it's six then cruiser can use maks half of his firepower while still needing to deal with all/most of an escort. Most of what cruiser can do is to force escort to disengage with no ability to follow up and end the job.
Cruisers should not die to one escort, even two. But their inability to kill an escort even in 1v1 is making them rather silly choice unless you are healer at hart and want to support the group and do nothing else.
A) This is already possible. You absolutely can defeat players using the 'best' gear with cheaper gear from missions etc. As you say, it takes superior skill to do so - and some of that skill includes understanding STO's gear system, and making sure the gear you are using synergizes well with the powers you've selected and the weapons you are running.
If a cruiser pilot knows what he is doing, he is invulnerable to an escort. Cruiser heals have the ability to blunt even the most powerful alpha strike, and once in a slugging match the escort's limited heals can't keep up with the sustained pressure damage from a cruiser. At best the escort will be forced to disengage and hope the cruiser chases him into a trap.
As for you last comment - Why should cruisers not ever be killable by escorts? Because you like cruisers? For all the kvetching that has gone on in this thread about how escort captains just want to have a 'super-ship', I keep seeing posts like this that seem to assert that cruisers should just be the best at everything.
well fisrt, 2 cruisers (i assume you used a cruiser too) will allways engage in endless battle with each other. Even if both have close to no skill or idea of setup.
second, the mobius killed you because of your own incapability to equip superior gear, which the maco borg combo just is for any ship, especially cruisers.
and 3rd, that guy probably didn't even need to be in a mobius ship to rip you a new one.
and yes, based on what i read about your pvp experiance and general postings, it is save to say for me you are at best a below average player...a captain kirk, as many like to call those players.
If you need to run in a cruiser from an escort...you are doing something horribly wrong.
SEE THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT GUYS, WHEN IT COMES TO CERTAIN ESCORT PLAYERS LIKE BAUDI. He doesn't make his own threads, but he will jump on everybody else's, not saying anything positive and bashes everyone for not flying in his type ship or sharing his build. Jerks don't ever see past their ownself. Everyone is stupid and less than a person than they. Its wonder why this guy is still in the forums. Nobody in here likes you or respects anything you have to say, Baudi. When you are you going to get it?
A) superior gear should not be so superior to give one player decisive advantage over other. One should still be competitive (with more skill, but still) with Mk X/Mk XI gear gained on missions or bought in exchange. STO fails here;
You are partially right on this, it is a STO fail though not becuase superior gear gives a decisive advantage over others but becuase Superior gear is needed to compete at the high end PvP.
Unfortunately its something the Devs can not fix becuase its already in place, if removed the playerbase that does not adapt will only ***** about some other aspect they believe is keeping them from being a PvP god and Cryptic makes money off the P2W they will not give up.
if an escorts pilot knows what he is doing, then he is invulnerable to the cruiser. It does not have enough firepower to blast through even most basic selfbuff like TT1 and EPtS1 with full broadside. And after escort get's on it's six then cruiser can use maks half of his firepower while still needing to deal with all/most of an escort. Most of what cruiser can do is to force escort to disengage with no ability to follow up and end the job.
As others have pointed out time and time again, if the Cruiser knows what he is doing the Cruiser is invulnerable to the Escorts attacks. Seen it many times in PvP, 3-5 Escorts chasing a Cruiser and getting nowhere as the Cruiser continuously heals itself back to full becuase the Cruiser can use the Escort tricks of TT+EPTS1 much better than the escort can plus bring more high end heals that the Escort can't.
If an Escort gets on your 6 in combat then reverse course and let him fly by you to be in your forward arc, flip sideways and then broadside him. Let fly with some EWP or VTR first to trap him, Try Tractor Beam or Target Subsystem Engines to trap them.
Use DOffs in your builds that accent the idea you are attempting. Use equipment that helps highlight you primary attacks or disables. Build to a purpose and stop trying to build to be a jack of all things equally or you will never perform like you wish you could.
Cruisers should not die to one escort, even two. But their inability to kill an escort even in 1v1 is making them rather silly choice unless you are healer at hart and want to support the group and do nothing else.
I've seen Cruisers who couldn't even die to 5 Escorts, how do you explain them?
I've killed Escorts in 1v1s in my Cruiser before, how do you explain that?
If you do not wish to be a support Cruiser then pick a cruiser that accents firepower more and build it to that purpose. Cruisers do not have to be just healers. Its time the Crusier fans realized this and stop wanting to be Cruiser, Escort and Science vessel all as equally effective as the classes that fall into those roles.
Cruisers do a lot of damage... over the time. Escorts do a lot of damage in short time. Comparing this to real life ships cruisers are like ww2 battleships - huge guns, lot of damage but you need time to deliver it all it. Escorts are like destroyers. Small guns, not much range, but they have... torpedoes.
Now, beam arrays are equivalent of big guns in naval warfare. They have better range then DHC and while they are not as powerfull per shot as DHC can deliver more damage over the time as you can keep your target longer under fire. DHC is an equivalent of torpedo. It has smaller effective range but it is delivering it's damage in a burst way and through this able to kill things faster then beam array. Beams are not worse then DHC, they operate differently.
Now, in STO has two other problems. First one is the the limited (yeah) arc of fire for beam arrays. With the manoeuvrability of escorts and the fact that most combat is done over short distances does not make it better.
Second problem is that current healing powers and BOFF layouts that escorts have allow them to overtank. They can take all the damage from cruiser and cruisers dont have anything to solve this problem.
If you mix those two problems it ends with escorts being virtually indestructible as long as they are piloted by semi-competent pilot. They can stay away from half of your damage (more if your are not 8-beam cruiser) and they can easily tank what's left.
Here are things that are, from my point of view, needed to fix it, and all those things are not, I think, complicated from programming point of view and should be easily implemented:
1) Beams should have 360 degrees coverage, or at least over 300 to minimize the chance for escort to stay away from HALF of the firepower (while cruiser has no such chance).
2) Escorts should get hull/shields nerf. Most should look like Bird of Pray with hull out of glass and tinfoil shields.
3) Escorts need a minus modifier for aux and shields. A big one so that their tanking/healing abilities get a nerf. They should not be able to heal themselves as effectively as cruisers or sci ships are.
4) Tactical Team should still work as automatic shield distribution but it should be slowed to to the same level (or just slightly aboce) as manual shield balancing.
I keep seeing posts like this that seem to assert that cruisers should just be the best at everything.
Currently the escorts get this position of being best at everything. Ok, maybe not best, but can do "anything" that this game needs. I do not want the cruiser to be best at everything. I would simply like it to be at least some danger to escort. Or say it in other way: to be as much danger to the escort as escort is to cruiser. And currently it is not.
There is difference in tankiness between escort and cruiser and as well as power between DHC and Beam Array. The lil problem is that escorts outside of BOFF tanking that's available to escort escort has additional damage mitigation with it's speed. Which means that cruiser is not a danger to escort at all.
Strip cruiser and escort of anything. Literally anything but basic shields, weapons and engine. No BOFF, DOFF and other stuff. Cruiser will die before he makes a dent in escort shield. Cruiser damage is low, he should be more resilient, but without BOFFs the difference between escort and cruiser damage and additional cruiser hull, lowered escort shield is not enough.
Cruiser is a weaker ship by design. Simply.
I've seen Cruisers who couldn't even die to 5 Escorts, how do you explain them?
I have too. Was even on the escort side once trying to kill some Vor'cha. But it was half a year ago and never seen something like this recently.
I've killed Escorts in 1v1s in my Cruiser before, how do you explain that?
I have too. They were not the best players ever. Never killed escort who knew about engine battery and evasives.
POssibly becuase he has a common fear among PvP'ers in STO?
The fear that the whinning of a fanbase with misconceptions on how Cruisers work, becuase said fanbase never saw the Enterprise not prevail in some form or fashion in the shows, will adversly change gameplay to compensate for thier lack of ability.
Nobody in here likes you or respects anything you have to say, Baudi. When you are you going to get it?
You don't have to like him to know he speaks the truth on many of the issues the Cruiser player thinks they have and to know that he is right on mnay levels concerning this threads subject matter.
When are you going to get it that the Cruiser in STO is not near the pile of trash you believe it to be?
Many things are wrong or imbalanced with STO, but the Cruiser is not the culmination of all of them in one package.
Currently the escorts get this position of being best at everything. Ok, maybe not best, but can do "anything" that this game needs. I do not want the cruiser to be best at everything. I would simply like it to be at least some danger to escort. Or say it in other way: to be as much danger to the escort as escort is to cruiser. And currently it is not.
There is difference in tankiness between escort and cruiser and as well as power between DHC and Beam Array. The lil problem is that escorts outside of BOFF tanking that's available to escort escort has additional damage mitigation with it's speed. Which means that cruiser is not a danger to escort at all.
Strip cruiser and escort of anything. Literally anything but basic shields, weapons and engine. No BOFF, DOFF and other stuff. Cruiser will die before he makes a dent in escort shield. Cruiser damage is low, he should be more resilient, but without BOFFs the difference between escort and cruiser damage and additional cruiser hull, lowered escort shield is not enough.
Cruiser is a weaker ship by design. Simply.
Escorts are NOT great at everything. GOOD escort captains can outfit their ship to barely cover the bases, but no escort is ever going to be the equal of a dedicated Cruiser-tank build in terms of survivability. It simply isn't possible. Similarly, Fed cruisers are simply not going to have the same firepower as an escort, but they can do the work to cover the bases.
As for your thought experiment, sorry, but it is an epically bad comparison. Of course the Escort will win in this scenario, because it's advantage (damage) comes in part from the weapons it can equip (dual cannons), and the advantage cruisers have comes from their healing BOFF powers. Of course if you remove healing from the equation, the healing ships will look weak. It would like saying "Remove all weapons from a ship, all tactical buffs, and just use engineering heals. The cruiser will survive longer every time, so therefore escorts are automatically weaker".
I will also say - try this out. I think the escort will win, but I bet it will be A LOT closer than you imagine. I'm also not sure what this proves in any case - is it any better design to have the Cruiser always win in this scenario? Or are you imagining that there is some magical number for damage that will make it so that both ships always blow up at the same time? Even if THAT were the case, it still creates an imbalance in the ships when you add the powers back on, unless you assume that all Boff powers are the same 'value' in power (pro tip: They aren't - healing is more powerful than damage). So yeah, nice try, but bad example.
Finally, here's a little bit for you to think about: Until the last few days, the escort I ran in PVE and PVP was a BEAMscort. I ran with no cannons at all, and in fact had only 4 beams, then I ran two torps fore and one torp aft. This is LESS firepower than most cruisers run. yet I was STILL able to wear down many opposing escorts because I could keep pressure on them at all times with my beam's wider arcs, and I could time my damage spikes from torps and Beam Overload to hit when they were low on heals. Since any cruiser could mount essentially the same weapons, any cruiser could have similar results. The fact that many players DON'T have these results says to me that the problem is the player, not the ship.
POssibly becuase he has a common fear among PvP'ers in STO?
The fear that the whinning of a fanbase with misconceptions on how Cruisers work, becuase said fanbase never saw the Enterprise not prevail in some form or fashion in the shows, will adversly change gameplay to compensate for thier lack of ability.
You don't have to like him to know he speaks the truth on many of the issues the Cruiser player thinks they have and to know that he is right on mnay levels concerning this threads subject matter.
When are you going to get it that the Cruiser in STO is not near the pile of trash you believe it to be?
Many things are wrong or imbalanced with STO, but the Cruiser is not the culmination of all of them in one package.
When something is imbalanced and I complain about it, thats whining? Its sound like you just want to to stay on top of everything and have a onesided view of the matter.
If my ship is getting destroyed faster than it can heal, then I have no choice but to run. I refuse to use that Borg/Maco setup for two reasons: 1) It lowers my overall weapon power because the Galaxy's both X and R come without weapon modidfiers, so I have to use the Jem'hadar Engine to compensate. 2) I have principles that don't believe that a player should be indestructible in a multi-player game. It doesn't make me feel good to bully others and exploit game loopholes to win a match. That doesn't show skill of making stratigic decisions but relying on computer programs to win for you. Its no better than using a GameShark on a game system to do the fatality codes for you and all you have to press is "A" or "B."
It easy for you to try to Judge cruiser players because you don't fly one in PVP. People on the sidelines always think they know what should of done in the game until it's their turn to be in the arena. Baudi don't fly a cruiser in PVP, and doesn't have any idea how to make one a killer just as much as an escort. He just wants to say that he is better player than everyone else and that they suck. He has no stats to back it up. If you agree with that behavior than you are just as bad as he.
I say again, THIS THREAD IS ABOUT WEAPON'S BASE STATS AND HOW UNEVEN THEY ARE!!!!!!!!!!!! ITS NOT ABOUT SHIPS, BUILDS AND PLAYER EGO'S. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR ROCK HEADS!!!!!!!!!!!!
SEE THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT GUYS, WHEN IT COMES TO CERTAIN ESCORT PLAYERS LIKE BAUDI. He doesn't make his own threads, but he will jump on everybody else's, not saying anything positive and bashes everyone for not flying in his type ship or sharing his build. Jerks don't ever see past their ownself. Everyone is stupid and less than a person than they. Its wonder why this guy is still in the forums. Nobody in here likes you or respects anything you have to say, Baudi. When you are you going to get it?
How dare he disagree with your poorly-thought out, ill-conceived, laughable misgivings? He must be a jerk! Let's go make a thread in the FAQ section to ask for his censorship!
When something is imbalanced and I complain about it, thats whining? Its sound like you just want to to stay on top of everything and have a onesided view of the matter.
Every time I see you post something like this, it just makes me groan. Try, for one moment, to empathize with the other side of this discussion. Is it remotely possible that maybe the people who disagree with you are not part of some cabal of escort players desperate to keep the pews, but are rather strong players who have differing experiences to yours?
From my perspective, it looks like you ran out of actual arguments a long time ago, but since you can't reconcile the fact that cruisers aren't bad ships with the fact that you are blowing up a bunch without acknowledging the obvious implication, you are instead creating a conspiracy where none exists.
Also, please, PLEASE fact-check yourself before you post things. A few errors: Orb Weavers and Ferengi Marauders are NOT escorts. One is a sci ship and the other is a cruiser. Also, consoles do NOT have different stats based on the ship they are on. Some, like RCS consoles and Field Generator consoles have a greater or lesser magnitude effect, but that is because they are percentage based, and the percentage increase over the base number is always the same, it's just that some base numbers are higher.
Same thing with shields and engines - the base states on an item don't change when you switch ships - instead, the ships all have differing modifiers that affect the raw base numbers of the items in different ways.
SEE THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT GUYS, WHEN IT COMES TO CERTAIN ESCORT PLAYERS LIKE BAUDI. He doesn't make his own threads, but he will jump on everybody else's, not saying anything positive and bashes everyone for not flying in his type ship or sharing his build. Jerks don't ever see past their ownself. Everyone is stupid and less than a person than they. Its wonder why this guy is still in the forums. Nobody in here likes you or respects anything you have to say, Baudi. When you are you going to get it?
atleast i know a "little" more about the game...and when i see somebody talking BS, i try to correct him, or give my honest opinion. It is rarely sugar coating, since most is misconception i read and your posts are 100% misunderstanding and unwillingness to adapt to the game rather have the game adapt to you.
and if even one of your ideas is made reality, actual good players in cruisers would wipe the floor with any shipclass. I ask you, can you understand that there are much better players out there than you are or even i am? And can you imagine how it would be in a PVP match with 5 of them flying cruisers, that are utterly indestructible and dish out dmg that can vaporize anything in their way?
And when i read through some comments here, stating that they actually use sub optimal setups or ships (which all galaxy cruiser types actually are for current gamecontent), but still think they should perform like people that use an optimized setup, it really seems to me that some people here think they ARE captain Kirk.
And stop pretending it's only me who thinks cruisers aren't in a bad shape as you may believe.
When something is imbalanced and I complain about it, thats whining? Its sound like you just want to to stay on top of everything and have a onesided view of the matter.
If my ship is getting destroyed faster than it can heal, then I have no choice but to run. I refuse to use that Borg/Maco setup for two reasons: 1) It lowers my overall weapon power because the Galaxy's both X and R come without weapon modidfiers, so I have to use the Jem'hadar Engine to compensate. 2) I have principles that don't believe that a player should be indestructible in a multi-player game. It doesn't make me feel good to bully others and exploit game loopholes to win a match. That doesn't show skill of making stratigic decisions but relying on computer programs to win for you. Its no better than using a GameShark on a game system to do the fatality codes for you and all you have to press is "A" or "B."
It easy for you to try to Judge cruiser players because you don't fly one in PVP. People on the sidelines always think they know what should of done in the game until it's their turn to be in the arena. Baudi don't fly a cruiser in PVP, and doesn't have any idea how to make one a killer just as much as an escort. He just wants to say that he is better player than everyone else and that they suck. He has no stats to back it up. If you agree with that behavior than you are just as bad as he.
I say again, THIS THREAD IS ABOUT WEAPON'S BASE STATS AND HOW UNEVEN THEY ARE!!!!!!!!!!!! ITS NOT ABOUT SHIPS, BUILDS AND PLAYER EGO'S. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR ROCK HEADS!!!!!!!!!!!!
base stats of weapons are created by the Devs , not players. You can't argue if the stats show cannons do hundreads of more damage than beams. That show an imbalance, it only gets worse when you add player skill trees, ships base stats, and ship builds. The weapons need to be balanced before you can even begin to balance the ships or the game. Every ship can not arm the same type of weapons which creates an imbalance in itself.
base stats of weapons are created by the Devs , not players. You can't argue if the stats show cannons do hundreads of more damage than beams. That show an imbalance, it only gets worse when you add player skill trees, ships base stats, and ship builds. The weapons need to be balanced before you can even begin to balance the ships or the game. Every ship can not arm the same type of weapons which creates an imbalance in itself.
you completely ignore fireing arcs...again. what should a cruiser with 6 or 7 turnrate do with dual cannons? can't you see where your assumption is so obviously wrong?
base stats of weapons are created by the Devs , not players. You can't argue if the stats show cannons do hundreads of more damage than beams. That show an imbalance, it only gets worse when you add player skill trees, ships base stats, and ship builds. The weapons need to be balanced before you can even begin to balance the ships or the game. Every ship can not arm the same type of weapons which creates an imbalance in itself.
So, wait - huh? Are you seriously trying to argue that all weapons should do the same exact damage (let's be generous and assume you mean the same effective damage normalized over range, fire arc, and rate of fire), as the first step to balance? Because that... that is fantastic. Yes, let's do that exact thing. That way, escorts, (which are the combat oriented DPS class) get to do LESS damage than cruisers, because they only have 7 weapons instead of 8.
Then, when it becomes evident that somehow the seven weapon escorts are STILL rolling you, let's go ahead and nerf the maneuverability of escorts, because that, too, is an 'imbalance'. Oh, and while we're at it, Sci ships have extra powers other ships don't have. That's not fair, let's go ahead and get rid of those. Oh, and Escorts have more Tac slots than cruisers, so, that's not fair, let's adjust those down. In fact, let's make every ship exactly like every other ship stat-wise. Also, captain powers aren't identical, so, let's get rid of them. That sounds fun.
Of course, when you are STILL getting rolled, then it will be that certain ships 'look faster' and that 'imbalance in looks' is throwing off your game. So, let's make sure that all ships look the same so that you don't have to worry about that. Then, let's make sure there is no difference in latency between different connections, because that also could be a reason why you fail.
Ugh.
Okay, so here it is in simple terms. Yes, cannons do more damage, because they have a narrower arc. Yes, escorts that are well-helmed can do much to minimize that disadvantage. Yes, the net result is that escorts will do more damage than cruisers. Since the CORE GAME DESIGN is that this should be so, it's not exactly a news flash. If you are trying to argue that escorts should not be the DPS class, well, sorry, that ship has sailed. If you are trying to argue that the damage advantage afforded to escorts is somehow insurmountable, you are flat wrong. If you are trying to say that balance means all things must be exactly equal in all ways, then you have no conception of balancing through competing strengths and weaknesses, and probably have a difficult time negotiating yourself through a game of 'rock paper scissors'.
Comments
Upon the first point shown here I have to disagree as it contradicts the point you made on the subject earlier which I do agree with (poor mission design).
On your second point I do agree, none of my build are perfect, however even my cruiser can survive in 1 on 1 PvP and sometimes come out on top even against a superior opponent, they ALL have some or other fault in their build (again, not saying I'm perfect, I usually have more flaws than them) which I will ALWAYS exploit when it makes itself known to me (some ability they haven't countered or a manoeuvre they don't expect, more often than not its warp plasma).
However the same build in PvE doesn't do quite so well... (read: "does OK")
R.I.P
And this is why I will always suck at PvP...
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That is the way it should be, and the way it was designed to be. But in PvE where even an escort can yo-yo tank the vast majority of the content their burst DPS turns into sustained DPS and screws everything up.
right on.. or take away cruiser hull to match their increase in firepower... you see guys, something has to give if you get a buff... there are cruiser tanks out there who cannot be brought down easily by even 3 escorts. Again, I think you don't know how to play the game and recognize the nuances that make a cruiser class, a cruiser class.
The defiant was made to defend against the borg. It is supposed to be heavily armored.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
I don't think you buffing the second lowest damage and dps output weapon group is going to affect the game in such a way as to make it suddenly unbalanced.
Using a Galaxy X with 4 purple Type 10 DHC fore and 4 crappy white type 10 turrets in back I can out dps a Galaxy X running 6 type 12 beam, two torp, dual EPtW. Or 7 Beams 1 torp, or 6 beams 2 DBB. 6 beams 2 DHC. By about a thousand.
So I'd imagine that if I managed to upgrade my DHC+Turret setup to the same level as my Beam/DBB setup and optimize my cannon play, that number would jump upwards of 2,000 or maybe even 2,500.
CRF provides a larger increase in damage output compared to any other Tactical ability in the game. FAW is gimped for single target DPS if there is another ship, but incredibly capable if there is just one ship and the appropriate abilities have been used. BO is a one and done that then gimps our dps for the next few shots or cycles, but can crit for over 12K.
As for those Cruiser Tanks that can take on 3 Escorts and not die. Neither will those Escorts. But having played that kind of a build myself in PvP I can tell you, you die from bleedthrough anyways.
Actually, I'd say I die more from boredom and Sub-Nukes more than bleed-thru. There's one annoying B'rel build with transphasic cluster torpedoes and AP:Alpha that will kill me with bleed thru but I see that ship once in a blue moon.
My 2c. Tie heals and BOFF team abilities to crew compliment.
Cruisers have 2 thousand or so souls on board yet they die off quicker in a cruiser and can't effect repairs better or faster than an escort with 20 people on board.
How can you send an engi/tac/sci team to repair your ship if you have no crew left?
Alter this and escorts become more squishy and cruisers more tanky.
Sci ships are perhaps the middle ground where they'd stay the same heal capability wise.
I feel that you could boost Beam Array Damage to the same levels as DHC, drop their power consumption to 8 and increase their cycle time. Eliminate DBB from the game all together.
Reduce the cycle time and decrease the power consumption to 7 on DHC's, and the DHC would still be the superior DPS option due to their better shield penetration, stat stacking and more effective CRF and CSV abilities.
For an Escort getting caught in a Cruiser broadside would be a serious concern, even so that doesn't change their tactics when fighting a Cruiser, just reinforces them.
well fisrt, 2 cruisers (i assume you used a cruiser too) will allways engage in endless battle with each other. Even if both have close to no skill or idea of setup.
second, the mobius killed you because of your own incapability to equip superior gear, which the maco borg combo just is for any ship, especially cruisers.
and 3rd, that guy probably didn't even need to be in a mobius ship to rip you a new one.
and yes, based on what i read about your pvp experiance and general postings, it is save to say for me you are at best a below average player...a captain kirk, as many like to call those players.
If you need to run in a cruiser from an escort...you are doing something horribly wrong.
Cruisers should not die to one escort, even two. But their inability to kill an escort even in 1v1 is making them rather silly choice unless you are healer at hart and want to support the group and do nothing else.
A) This is already possible. You absolutely can defeat players using the 'best' gear with cheaper gear from missions etc. As you say, it takes superior skill to do so - and some of that skill includes understanding STO's gear system, and making sure the gear you are using synergizes well with the powers you've selected and the weapons you are running.
As for you last comment - Why should cruisers not ever be killable by escorts? Because you like cruisers? For all the kvetching that has gone on in this thread about how escort captains just want to have a 'super-ship', I keep seeing posts like this that seem to assert that cruisers should just be the best at everything.
SEE THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT GUYS, WHEN IT COMES TO CERTAIN ESCORT PLAYERS LIKE BAUDI. He doesn't make his own threads, but he will jump on everybody else's, not saying anything positive and bashes everyone for not flying in his type ship or sharing his build. Jerks don't ever see past their ownself. Everyone is stupid and less than a person than they. Its wonder why this guy is still in the forums. Nobody in here likes you or respects anything you have to say, Baudi. When you are you going to get it?
Unfortunately its something the Devs can not fix becuase its already in place, if removed the playerbase that does not adapt will only ***** about some other aspect they believe is keeping them from being a PvP god and Cryptic makes money off the P2W they will not give up.
As others have pointed out time and time again, if the Cruiser knows what he is doing the Cruiser is invulnerable to the Escorts attacks. Seen it many times in PvP, 3-5 Escorts chasing a Cruiser and getting nowhere as the Cruiser continuously heals itself back to full becuase the Cruiser can use the Escort tricks of TT+EPTS1 much better than the escort can plus bring more high end heals that the Escort can't.
If an Escort gets on your 6 in combat then reverse course and let him fly by you to be in your forward arc, flip sideways and then broadside him. Let fly with some EWP or VTR first to trap him, Try Tractor Beam or Target Subsystem Engines to trap them.
Use DOffs in your builds that accent the idea you are attempting. Use equipment that helps highlight you primary attacks or disables. Build to a purpose and stop trying to build to be a jack of all things equally or you will never perform like you wish you could.
I've seen Cruisers who couldn't even die to 5 Escorts, how do you explain them?
I've killed Escorts in 1v1s in my Cruiser before, how do you explain that?
If you do not wish to be a support Cruiser then pick a cruiser that accents firepower more and build it to that purpose. Cruisers do not have to be just healers. Its time the Crusier fans realized this and stop wanting to be Cruiser, Escort and Science vessel all as equally effective as the classes that fall into those roles.
R.I.P
Just No...
Currently the escorts get this position of being best at everything. Ok, maybe not best, but can do "anything" that this game needs. I do not want the cruiser to be best at everything. I would simply like it to be at least some danger to escort. Or say it in other way: to be as much danger to the escort as escort is to cruiser. And currently it is not.
There is difference in tankiness between escort and cruiser and as well as power between DHC and Beam Array. The lil problem is that escorts outside of BOFF tanking that's available to escort escort has additional damage mitigation with it's speed. Which means that cruiser is not a danger to escort at all.
Strip cruiser and escort of anything. Literally anything but basic shields, weapons and engine. No BOFF, DOFF and other stuff. Cruiser will die before he makes a dent in escort shield. Cruiser damage is low, he should be more resilient, but without BOFFs the difference between escort and cruiser damage and additional cruiser hull, lowered escort shield is not enough.
Cruiser is a weaker ship by design. Simply.
I have too. Was even on the escort side once trying to kill some Vor'cha. But it was half a year ago and never seen something like this recently.
I have too. They were not the best players ever. Never killed escort who knew about engine battery and evasives.
R.I.P
Escorts are NOT great at everything. GOOD escort captains can outfit their ship to barely cover the bases, but no escort is ever going to be the equal of a dedicated Cruiser-tank build in terms of survivability. It simply isn't possible. Similarly, Fed cruisers are simply not going to have the same firepower as an escort, but they can do the work to cover the bases.
As for your thought experiment, sorry, but it is an epically bad comparison. Of course the Escort will win in this scenario, because it's advantage (damage) comes in part from the weapons it can equip (dual cannons), and the advantage cruisers have comes from their healing BOFF powers. Of course if you remove healing from the equation, the healing ships will look weak. It would like saying "Remove all weapons from a ship, all tactical buffs, and just use engineering heals. The cruiser will survive longer every time, so therefore escorts are automatically weaker".
I will also say - try this out. I think the escort will win, but I bet it will be A LOT closer than you imagine. I'm also not sure what this proves in any case - is it any better design to have the Cruiser always win in this scenario? Or are you imagining that there is some magical number for damage that will make it so that both ships always blow up at the same time? Even if THAT were the case, it still creates an imbalance in the ships when you add the powers back on, unless you assume that all Boff powers are the same 'value' in power (pro tip: They aren't - healing is more powerful than damage). So yeah, nice try, but bad example.
Finally, here's a little bit for you to think about: Until the last few days, the escort I ran in PVE and PVP was a BEAMscort. I ran with no cannons at all, and in fact had only 4 beams, then I ran two torps fore and one torp aft. This is LESS firepower than most cruisers run. yet I was STILL able to wear down many opposing escorts because I could keep pressure on them at all times with my beam's wider arcs, and I could time my damage spikes from torps and Beam Overload to hit when they were low on heals. Since any cruiser could mount essentially the same weapons, any cruiser could have similar results. The fact that many players DON'T have these results says to me that the problem is the player, not the ship.
How dare he disagree with your poorly-thought out, ill-conceived, laughable misgivings? He must be a jerk! Let's go make a thread in the FAQ section to ask for his censorship!
We've got ourselves a fine Lewis Prothero, here.
atleast i know a "little" more about the game...and when i see somebody talking BS, i try to correct him, or give my honest opinion. It is rarely sugar coating, since most is misconception i read and your posts are 100% misunderstanding and unwillingness to adapt to the game rather have the game adapt to you.
and if even one of your ideas is made reality, actual good players in cruisers would wipe the floor with any shipclass. I ask you, can you understand that there are much better players out there than you are or even i am? And can you imagine how it would be in a PVP match with 5 of them flying cruisers, that are utterly indestructible and dish out dmg that can vaporize anything in their way?
And when i read through some comments here, stating that they actually use sub optimal setups or ships (which all galaxy cruiser types actually are for current gamecontent), but still think they should perform like people that use an optimized setup, it really seems to me that some people here think they ARE captain Kirk.
And stop pretending it's only me who thinks cruisers aren't in a bad shape as you may believe.
Are you saying that we have seen no whinning in this thread by the fanbase concerning cruisers, regardless if you had a part in it or not?
R.I.P
you completely ignore fireing arcs...again. what should a cruiser with 6 or 7 turnrate do with dual cannons? can't you see where your assumption is so obviously wrong?
So, wait - huh? Are you seriously trying to argue that all weapons should do the same exact damage (let's be generous and assume you mean the same effective damage normalized over range, fire arc, and rate of fire), as the first step to balance? Because that... that is fantastic. Yes, let's do that exact thing. That way, escorts, (which are the combat oriented DPS class) get to do LESS damage than cruisers, because they only have 7 weapons instead of 8.
Then, when it becomes evident that somehow the seven weapon escorts are STILL rolling you, let's go ahead and nerf the maneuverability of escorts, because that, too, is an 'imbalance'. Oh, and while we're at it, Sci ships have extra powers other ships don't have. That's not fair, let's go ahead and get rid of those. Oh, and Escorts have more Tac slots than cruisers, so, that's not fair, let's adjust those down. In fact, let's make every ship exactly like every other ship stat-wise. Also, captain powers aren't identical, so, let's get rid of them. That sounds fun.
Of course, when you are STILL getting rolled, then it will be that certain ships 'look faster' and that 'imbalance in looks' is throwing off your game. So, let's make sure that all ships look the same so that you don't have to worry about that. Then, let's make sure there is no difference in latency between different connections, because that also could be a reason why you fail.
Ugh.
Okay, so here it is in simple terms. Yes, cannons do more damage, because they have a narrower arc. Yes, escorts that are well-helmed can do much to minimize that disadvantage. Yes, the net result is that escorts will do more damage than cruisers. Since the CORE GAME DESIGN is that this should be so, it's not exactly a news flash. If you are trying to argue that escorts should not be the DPS class, well, sorry, that ship has sailed. If you are trying to argue that the damage advantage afforded to escorts is somehow insurmountable, you are flat wrong. If you are trying to say that balance means all things must be exactly equal in all ways, then you have no conception of balancing through competing strengths and weaknesses, and probably have a difficult time negotiating yourself through a game of 'rock paper scissors'.