This debate has become circular and is a debate as old as gaming itself, the debate of Why is my Cleric (Engineer/Cruiser) not as dangerous as your fighter(Tactical/Escort)?
The answer is the same as it ever was, He is not suppossed to be otherwise he would be a fighter.
In D&D, one of the most classical pen&paper games, the cleric is one of the most dangerous class available, beating fighter without problem at high levels when he can cast his magic. I don't know where the modern idea of defenseless and teethless healer archetype comes from ...
And sorry, but if you want to see it from the fantasy point of view, then an escort would be no fighter. Fighter mostly are not specialists in dealing damage, thats what mages/rogues are for. In fact, since escort can tank, deal damage and also heal them self they would be a multiclass mage-fighter-cleric ... For Klingons you can replace mage by rogue ...
I have however noticed that with the same ship and build my tac gets more damage unbuffed than my engi does also unbuffed and the tac is less skilled up for the thing than the engi
any ideas?
well, racial traits...skills...accolades...weapon modifiers...range. this list can go on and on and on.
fact is, this can only be compared in an environment that is specifically designed for that evaluation. And taking your word, no offense here meant, is just not enough without some hard evidence.
combat logs, 1vs1 testing environment and so on would be a start...anything esle is subjective and speculative.
Captain abilities is part of the choice you make when you decide to create a character. If you do not like not being the heavy hitter then do not choose Engineer over Tactical. I do not see why the Engineer class suddenly needs a damage boost to compete with a different class designed to be the damage dealing class.
Anyone can use the DOffs and the number of tactical consoles on a ship is a part of said ships design, so while yes once you add all these factors into the equation the damage numbers start to have real differences its not unexpected as the classes start to show thier proffessional bonuses, of which only the tactical has direct damage multipliers.
Not asking to be the heavy hitter or main DD.
And nor am I asking for a damage buff to Engineers. But for Cruisers and Science Vessels that use beam arrays.
BFAW is not a damage increasing skill though and never was intended to be in combat. BFAW is a pet killing skill designed back when the KDF had the only pets and the feds where tired of trying to counter them. Its not a damage dealing skill unless you are hoping to Proc a target or do damage indirectly via DEM or Sensor Analysis etc.
I beg to differ.
FAW was not intended as a pet killing skill. To begin with there were no carriers.
FAW was a threat generation tool with potential as a damage increaser vs single targets.
To say that it isn't is like saying that TSS was never intended to be used on yourself, only others. When clearly it is capable of both.
The differences in damage between BO and CRF is highly buffed by the Tactical captain skills of ApA, TacFleet, GDF and TI3 (for speed) over every other class in the game as befits the class choice. I expect a tactical captain to ride in a do high damage with his weapons of choice. When said abilites are buffed 40k BO3s can happen and 8k CRF3 can happen easily if timed right and even the difference between the two is only 8k, with BO3 coming out on top.
CRF is the better skill out of the two.
Comparing damage out put between abilities is fine but does not show any differences that are not to be expected in abilities that have different Tiers and can be buffed better by one class (whos function is damage output) over the other classes (whos function is not direct damage output). Its a moot point and is likened to comparing oneself to a professional shooter. You may wish to be more deadly and hit the bullseye as often as the Pro but without his skills you will not.
I am not saying anything about that.
I am saying that the abilities themselves, standing on their own, are to different in their output capabilities. So I have no clue what you are trying to say, but you have misunderstood what it is that I was showing. We know that the Tac Captain is the best DD option. We aren't asking for that to change.
Buffing Cruisers is not an option becuase its a direct favortism to one class of vessels over the others and doing such should be avoided in my opinion.
And buffing Escorts isn't?
Say like the recent increase to turn rates for just Escorts.
Buffing beams may work but all the Beam buffing BOff abilities are one Tier lower than the highest cannon Ability and it would be easy to unbalance the game if not done properly.
I would prefer a new class of beam Array be designed and implemented that falls into the area between a BA and DBB, say a heavy beam array with a 180 degree field of fire.
Or institute some new Beam and Cannon BOff abilities to fill in the gap, lower CRF down to T1 through T3, etc.
I fail to see what you are after.
Cruisers cannot access TIII of either FAW or BO. Increasing the base damage of the beam arrays can be balanced easily as BO and FAW are % increases.
Imposing a 180 degree arc on a Cruiser is a proverbial right cross to an already potentially unsteady opponent. You would cut even their current dps and raw output by close to half!
A 180 arc means no broadsiding unless you can line up a target within a 1-2 degree arc due to a continuation of current cycles. This would be a massive advantage for all Cruiser opponents.
Overall the differences in direct damage out put between the Tac/Escort and all other vessels is functioning as intended consider tac is the damage class and Cruiser and Science are not.
The differences in damage out between the Character classes seems right as well since the Tactical can greatly buff damage in proportion to how much the Engineer can buff thier healing. Science so far is the only real loser as Cryptic has yet to balance them and make them useful at the same time.
I disagree. You have a system right now where a conservatively played Escort player, by his own admission, is up over 80%! from the nearest any Cruiser being captained by an Engineer. Even when you place a Tac Captain in a Cruiser that number is still over a 44% increase. That's far to wide a gap to consider it as anything other than blatantly biased towards a certain playstyle.
This debate has become circular and is a debate as old as gaming itself, the debate of Why is my Cleric (Engineer/Cruiser) not as dangerous as your fighter(Tactical/Escort)?
The answer is the same as it ever was, He is not suppossed to be otherwise he would be a fighter.
We aren't asking why we aren't as dangerous!
We are asking why can't we be competitive in PvE and PvP without either becoming the large french window or a sponge.
Allow me to spell it out again. We do not want to replace nor bump the Escort in its, agreed upon by all in here, role of being the primary DD in the game.
We want a reduced gap between the performance of Cruisers and the performance of Escorts.
but this gap you are talking about is not that big as many here already pointed out. And it is compensated by a much better survival and support capability.
Not every cruiser is designed to be on the DD side of the spectrum, but every escort is.
But your flat out wrong. That gap IS that big when it comes to damage but not healing/tanking.
A tac/escort combo will put out double the DPS of a eng/cruiser. And can still tank anything in an elite STF.
And the theory that sci captains are weak while eng captains are not is just, amazingly incorrect.
How so?
To hear how the game plays from the "PvP players", and a little bit from personal experience, this post is so full of "huh?" that I can't figure it out...
1. A well flown cruiser can heal everything that 2-4 escorts can pump out, and barely break a sweat. Also, it doesn't really worry about where this damage is going, they can effectively keep anybody alive.
2. This is the only truth in the post...
3. When you look at, especially, PvP roles, that's how you get the "sci = weak" deal. To wit: Tac/Escorts are the "killers", primarily through "massive spike damage" - clearly defined, useful, and necessary role. Engie/Cruisers are "healers", again, clearly defined, useful, necessary. Science/Science, by virtue of nerfed powers and 3/3 weapons can't even perform a "sustained pressure damage" role that a cruiser (barely) executes. Paper hull means that a targetted Sci/Sci has to divert a majority of the heals to itself, meaning that it can't heal as well as a cruiser can. This leaves Science the "clearly defined role" of cruiser-pusher (TBR cruiser out of the fight so escorts can blow up targets that aren't being healed) and subnuc beamer (and they can subnuc beam from an escort / cruiser as well as a sci, and certain ships - MVAE anyone - can TBR with the best of them).
To back this up with a couple of my PvE experiences:
1. Sci in a Luna tanking tac cube at end of infected: due to lack of hull heals on highly offensive science build, was being blown up every 40% damage dealt to cube while being aggro magnet and never losing a shield. Granted, this PuG was so lame that a Sci/Sci with zero threat control could somehow maintain aggro, I probably would have succeeded with zero fatalities if even one cruiser bothered to heal me...
2. Buffed Armitage with danube fighters blows up mirror battleship in 3 hits due to string of 3x 7k+ critical hits, boosted due to tractor beam from runabout. Same effect could occur with MVAE that has extra science slot to divert to TB instead of fighters...
3. Cruiser takes as long as my Science did to play most missions (sustained DPS only), but only blew up when I was complete bonehead (forgot to slot resistances to plasma on Rommie front & heal appropriately, BFAW in massive battles of 2048 series, etc.
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
youare kidding, this wil mess up the STF because i nearly never see anengeneer on a cruiser with a good aggromanagment. So this is why escorts have to tank in estf's.
This looks like a big QQ from cruiser-captains who dont know their roll in games.
and in pvp its like in all other games: to kill an well played enemy, fokus your fire!
Allow me to spell it out again. We do not want to replace nor bump the Escort in its, agreed upon by all in here, role of being the primary DD in the game.
We want a reduced gap between the performance of Cruisers and the performance of Escorts.
Then let me reply bluntly.
Most of the ideas in this thread and the many others like it are not geared to do what you say is the wish of the Cruiser crowd, not infringing on the Escort.
Thier have been ideas that the Cruiser needs buffing, the Engineer class needs buffing, the Science class needs buffing, the Tactical class need debuffing, Escorts need debuffing, etc etc.
No one has really given any simple and conclusive ideas that would make the cruiser crowd happy that doesn't infringe on the Tactical/Escort and fixes the perception that the Cruisers suck in the mind of the average Cruiser player.
To close that gap between Cruiser and Escort performance to a level that the average, unexperienced player finds adequite does remove the Escort viability as the primary Damage Dealing class of vessel in the game and if that happens why would anyone play a tac/Escort?
Why would anyone want to play a Tac/Escort or escort period if the choice of going cruiser nets you only a slight loss in total damage output of less than say even 1500 points total? Why would anyone choose the lesser survivable vessel?
Why would anyone want to play a Tac/Escort if teh Cruisers are bumped in turn rate and have thier enertia changed to make them more nimble in combat? Who would not choose the Cruiser for a loss of a little turn rate, gaining near Escort damage capability and the greater tanking?
Why would someone not choose the idea of new buffed beam arrays on thier existing cruiser if they do damage equal to a DHCs and have that wonderful 270 degree firing arc? You would have all the tankiness of a Crusier with Escort damage output and no need to really have to manuever to keep weapons on target.
I'm not saying that the Cruiser may need something to make them feel betetr in play or that the Engineer class needs something to ake them more fun to play or that Science is in the same boat.
As a game Developer Cryptic needs to make sure all their game aspects are fun to play to some extent but the bulk of the ideas offered up in the forums does that at the expense of the tactical/Escort class and will have us back here again in the forums debating the " Escorts need a buff" threads in 6 months and furthering ignoring the true fix for fan driven perceptions of how a vessel should play as oppossed to a game viewpoint of how they are designed to be played.
How about if at 5km a 6 beam cruiser with 3 consoles dedicated to the energy type used could sit unbuffed and so 400-600 DPH (Damage per hit, as a cruiser this figure is more informative than DPS) BUT this figure would not climb by more than 100 at 1km, thus giving cruisers the ability to stay out of the say of escorts, get more out of their firing arcs and monitor the battlefield all from a good cruiser suiting distance. We all know cruisers were never supposed to get up close to enemies the way escorts are hence the difference in manoeuvrability:
Cruisers are meant slow with large firing arcs so they can stay out of the danger-zone and still land a good amount of damage effortlessly.
Escorts are meant to be quick with small firing arcs so they can get up close dodge a lot of fire and when they manage to hit something with a good high powered volley it hurts and vice versa.
What I am proposing gives cruisers the battlefield overview they were always meant to have, takes advantage of their speed, turn rate and when the escorts get within their 1-3km zone (for which they were designed) they will do lots more damage than the cruisers, so I'm still not putting escorts out of a job but giving cruisers a much appreciated ability to do some easy damage (for the less specialised of us).
I think even the escort pilots would like this, they get us out of their area, we can do a far better job of laying down support damage (as such they can relax a little), we can better see what's going on and thereby better co-ordinate our team support and lead groups with our increased line of sight.
Please do feel free to play with the figures a little (I did draft these from a mix of the top of my head and my exp pre season six combined with the cruisers primary role).
They need to balance the game so over whelming Burst damage is not required to quickly kill a NPC foe in the high level STFs and endgame content.
They need to balance the game so over whelming Burst damage is not required to overcome the even higher Burst healing capacity of the Engie/Cruiser and Science classes of the game.
They need to balance the game so over whelming Burst damage is not required to quickly kill a NPC foe in the high level STFs and endgame content.
They need to balance the game so over whelming Burst damage is not required to overcome the even higher Burst healing capacity of the Engie/Cruiser and Science classes of the game.
I second this, hence my suggestion, I think it's quite agreeable for all involved parties, if not it can of course be adapted but I think it is the first constructive thing in this thread or a while
How about if at 5km a 6 beam cruiser with 3 consoles dedicated to the energy type used could sit unbuffed and so 400-600 DPH (Damage per hit, as a cruiser this figure is more informative than DPS) BUT this figure would not climb by more than 100 at 1km, thus giving cruisers the ability to stay out of the say of escorts, get more out of their firing arcs and monitor the battlefield all from a good cruiser suiting distance. We all know cruisers were never supposed to get up close to enemies the way escorts are hence the difference in manoeuvrability:
Cruisers are meant slow with large firing arcs so they can stay out of the danger-zone and still land a good amount of damage effortlessly.
Escorts are meant to be quick with small firing arcs so they can get up close dodge a lot of fire and when they manage to hit something with a good high powered volley it hurts and vice versa.
What I am proposing gives cruisers the battlefield overview they were always meant to have, takes advantage of their speed, turn rate and when the escorts get within their 1-3km zone (for which they were designed) they will do lots more damage than the cruisers, so I'm still not putting escorts out of a job but giving cruisers a much appreciated ability to do some easy damage (for the less specialised of us).
I think even the escort pilots would like this, they get us out of their area, we can do a far better job of laying down support damage (as such they can relax a little), we can better see what's going on and thereby better co-ordinate our team support and lead groups with our increased line of sight.
Please do feel free to play with the figures a little (I did draft these from a mix of the top of my head and my exp pre season six combined with the cruisers primary role).
Wait, now you want to NERF Cruisers?
I mean, at least my beams already deal ~700-900 damage per hit, even at 8-9km range, using EPtW cycling, and ~600 unbuffed.
And that's as an Engineer in a Mirror Assault Cruiser (=Assault Cruiser with Shovel-look).
Your 400-600 DPH would translate to 1920-2880 DPS ... and i currenly get 3.5k+ (closer to 4k if I don't get oneshot).
What the F%$& are you smoking?
Let me be totally blunt here: YOU SUCK!
I don't know if you suck Donkey-, Elephant- or even Brontosaur-balls, but ... YOU SUCK!
Get that in your head.
If Cryptic buffed Cruisers so that YOU would be competetive with even a halfway competent Escort, then a well-played Cruiser with a Tac-captain would break past 10k DPS, sustained!
Use the time you spend spamming the forum with your crack-pipe-fueled ideas, and instead get some basic skills, at least equal to a trained monkey. And lay of the drugs.
Maybe you'll see then just how bad you were, and just how ridiculous your ideas are ....
Beams are more powerful. The disadvantage of having escort on your six is that it halves your weapon loadout meaning less DPV on him plus dince your running he can chase.
What they need to allow is maybe DBBs in the aft on Cruisers and some Science vessels.
Remember this mean KDF too.
If you like we can virtually imagine a weaponized military version though I made the comparison to focus on the handling differrences.
I don't have to run from an escort for him to get on my back. Escorts can fly around me in circles faster than I can turn in one direction. The fact that you made that statement shows that you never, ever flew a slow turning cruiser in a PVP match. Every cruiser pilot knows how fast escorts can fly around your ship.
No, I can't virtually imagine a weaponized military version of a 787 because, in my 13 years of military service, I have learned how much different the military planes are made and perform in comparison to civilian airliners. The closest things that come to an airliner in the military are the cargo transports, they are not armed with weapons, just coutermeasures. Military planes' wings are sept at a different angle than civilian planes for added manuverability to evade attack. Civilian planes are built for comfort and will never have to roll or do loops. I was soldier who deployed many times using civilian planes, C-130's, C-141's and C-17's. In one of my in country deployments, I experienced zero G for 2 minutes in a C-17. We passingers were not ready for the steep decent and went flying with all of our gear. A C-17 can stop in less than 200 meters on a runway when landing. In one of my Iraq deployments, I saw this with my own eyes, and this plane happen to be picking us up. In another Iraq deployements, we took off with such a steep climb that my buddies to the left and right of me passed out from the G forces, and the plane did a half loop and a full role. They flew like this in combat situations to make it harder for weapons lock from Stinger gunning terrorist below. You will never see that in a civilian plane. I use World War 2 as a better comparison because those were the days when we had dogfights between larger planes and smaller ones. Plus the larger planes were armed with guns as well as bombs. Today, we don't fight that way anymore because most of the enemies we fight don't have large impressive air forces, and most of the attacks on air come from the ground. The last time we had dogfights were in the Gulf War, there were no bombers under threat of other planes.
I don't have to run from an escort for him to get on my back. Escorts can fly around me in circles faster than I can turn in one direction. The fact that you made that statement shows that you never, ever flew a slow turning cruiser in a PVP match. Every cruiser pilot knows how fast escorts can fly around your ship.
I've PvP'ed in the BortasQu in both Kerrat and the Ques. I know just how slow a Cruiser can be on its on without using something to boost thier speed and turn.
I never said you had to run form an escort to let them get in your six, only that once there they are happy becuase all you can do is try to run and shoot at them with just 4 Beam Arrays, some mines, etc.
Still just jumping to conclusions, you are.
No, I can't virtually imagine a weaponized military version of a 787 because, in my 13 years of military service, I have learned how much different the military planes are made and perform in comparison to civilian airliners. The closest things that come to an airliner in the military are the cargo transports, they are not armed with weapons, just coutermeasures. Military planes' wings are sept at a different angle than civilian planes for added manuverability to evade attack. Civilian planes are built for comfort and will never have to roll or do loops. I was soldier who deployed many times using civilian planes, C-130's, C-141's and C-17's. In one of my in country deployments, I experienced zero G for 2 minutes in a C-17. We passingers were not ready for the steep decent and went flying with all of our gear. A C-17 can stop in less than 200 meters on a runway when landing. In one of my Iraq deployments, I saw this with my own eyes, and this plane happen to be picking us up. In another Iraq deployements, we took off with such a steep climb that my buddies to the left and right of me passed out from the G forces, and the plane did a half loop and a full role. They flew like this in combat situations to make it harder for weapons lock from Stinger gunning terrorist below. You will never see that in a civilian plane. I use World War 2 as a better comparison because those were the days when we had dogfights between larger planes and smaller ones. Plus the larger planes were armed with guns as well as bombs. Today, we don't fight that way anymore because most of the enemies we fight don't have large impressive air forces, and most of the attacks on air come from the ground. The last time we had dogfights were in the Gulf War, there were no bombers under threat of other planes.
So you lack the ability to imagine hypothetical situations?
Wait, now you want to NERF Cruisers?
I mean, at least my beams already deal ~700-900 damage per hit, even at 8-9km range, using EPtW cycling, and ~600 unbuffed.
And that's as an Engineer in a Mirror Assault Cruiser (=Assault Cruiser with Shovel-look).
Your 400-600 DPH would translate to 1920-2880 DPS ... and i currenly get 3.5k+ (closer to 4k if I don't get oneshot).
My beams manage a little over 500 DPH at 5km with EPtW cycling I scrape 300 unbuffed so for me this would be an upgrade and this is AFTER I refined my character and ship build in favour of beams
So on these grounds yes I do suck, apparently I suck majorly but me being me I won't deny that as I have no self respect so yeah, call me what you will.
My beams manage a little over 500 DPH at 5km with EPtW cycling I scrape 300 unbuffed so for me this would be an upgrade and this is AFTER I refined my character and ship build in favour of beams
So on these grounds yes I do suck, apparently I suck majorly but me being me I won't deny that as I have no self respect so yeah, call me what you will.
Fine. Now you can choose between three options:
A) Cryptic hates YOU! YOU, personally. And makes your Cruiser deal less damage than everyone else's. I'm using hacks, or some kind of black sorcery, or have sold my soul to the gaming-devil for a DPS-boost.
C) You suck, you're a Noob, and if you want to break out of that cycle of failing - complaining - failing even harder, you have to start listening to advice instead.
What will it be?
This "Cruiser sucks"-complaining is not helping. At all. Just to the contrary. Since everyone seems to think so, since it seems to be accepted truth, people ACCEPT that their Cruisers fail, and deal no damage. They don't seem to know that it doesn't have to be that way, so they don't even try.
These threads actually do harm.
Make a thread in the Shipyard "Why do I suck at Cruiser, post your full build (weapons, components, BOffs, DOffs) and keybinds, and I'll tell you excactly how to do it.
Then try it, and come back after you've learned what a Cruiser can really do - is that so hard?
Make a thread in the Shipyard "Why do I suck at Cruiser, post your full build (weapons, components, BOffs, DOffs) and keybinds, and I'll tell you excactly how to do it.
Then try it, and come back after you've learned what a Cruiser can really do - is that so hard?
The reason why alot of cruisers can't compete in PVP and PVE with escorts is because the devs are bent of making escorts do everything and be all around better ships. If thats not the case, then why are almost every new ship that they come out with are escorts and armed with cannons? Why is it that torpedos, being the cruiser's most powerful weapon, does little to nothing to shields? Cruisers on the Fed side can't arm heavy cannons like they can on the Klingon side.
To balance out things and slow the drive of everyone rushing to get an escort to use in PVP, they need to either bring up the damage level of beams or bring down the damage level in heavy cannons. There is no guide or manual saying that cannons are better than beams. In Memory Alpha say the the disruptor cannons have more energy then standard phaser banks but took longer to recharge. Standerd phasers in that time were Type 8, while the Galaxy class was armed with Type X and Sovereign was armed with type XII. Those later mentioned phasers were not standard and were mostly on the new most important ships. Now that this is the 25th Century, most ships with the phaser strips would be using type X or type XII phaser arrays. With that being said, the power outputs for cannons and beams should be the same and the damage should be the same. That would make more ships in this game more even, especially in pvp. Lets see if the Devs are really interested in the balance of the game or are they just blowing smoke up everyone's TRIBBLE.
Excuse me if I sound rude, but how does a cruiser dishing out the same DPS as a escort while still benefiting from vastly superior hull and tanking ability seem like balance?
Escorts that are able to tank well do so because their pilots are skilled at it.
Out of curiuosity, did your first one not help? at all?
Not really, I found the cycling EPtX really failed dismally in my hands, I trid to do it but I always found the next one in line to be on cooldown or I got blown up because I needed something that was unavailable to me. I find I can usually put a hole in those build though, there is usually some weakness (usually warp plasma) that I exploit the moment it shows up and while it isn't a game ender it's enough to keep a stalemate going
the assesment of bombers being "armed to the teeth" must be seen in another light. The guns of a bomber were not designed to destroy incoming enemy planes, but to force them off their attack vector. The cannons on those fighters had superior range by far...but it was difficult to aim in those plains, and even harder when fired upon and doing evasive actions.
Alse the incredible numbers of those bomber squads asured that not all could be taken down before reaching the target.
the fighter escorts of those bombers actually took care of enemy fighters. Once those fighters had to return due to fuel capacity, the bomber squads suffered heavy losses due to fighter attacks.
In general though it can be said that 1 fighter against 1 bomber was death sentense for the bomber.
the light armament of bombers were never intended to take down enemy fighter planes (although they did of course) rather to make it more difficult to shoot at them.
numbers actually indicate this, that most of the luftwaffe was shot down by other fighter aircrafts.
but to your problem of keeping enemies off your back:
use vent plasma, it's a great dmg ability and clears your tail mercyless and has the escort captain rotate in his seat for sure
Tractor beam repulsor is great if you use a more sci oriented cruiser
chroniton mines or torps in the rear work excellent
full stop and reverse
you also have 4 device slot for a reason...use the deuterium surplus, not for running away but to run circles around the escort for a change
there is also this very cheap console, subspace jump, a real burner, if you don't have it up to now, get it.
and now here is the number one burner, escort captain will hate me for this: If the advantage of the escort is it's turnrate...then take it from her. Thats the secret actually, immobilization!
do not try to smash firepower against firepower, search the weakness and exploit it.
Leave it to someone like yourself who doesn't know bullistics, to tell me what guns will do and won't do. I shot many calibur weapons for 13 years because it was my job. Not only did I shoot them but had to know the mechanics of the weapon, affecective ranges and damage done by these weapons. I shot 5.56, 7.62, 9mm, 50 Cal., 25mm, 30mm, 40mm, and 120mm. I ran ranges and did battle damage assesments in the US and in Iraq. If it has anything to do with grunts and tankers, I did it. The planes are armed with 30mm machine guns in those days. The size of one round is as thick as 3 of your fingers together will make a hole in 12 inch thick aluminum armor of a M113, large enough to put you head through it. That's a light, medium armored army vehicle, so imagine the round going through a thiner skin plane with wind speeds 200-300 mph. If the holes don't split your wings, the wind will finish the job. Fighter planes's structure can't stand the 300 mph wind pressure after it's structure beams have been split by 30mm bullets. The planes will decentergrate after the pressure, so if you think those guns can't destroy planes, you are sadly mistaken.
I don't think taking some of the turn rate from the escort will solve the problem because there ships like the Galaxy types that are at the bottom rung of the turn rate latter. We players has been asking for a turn rate boost for the Galaxy types since the game's launch, yet the Devs don't think we need one. I sight balancing the weapons as a better way to even the playing field without making all the ships totally identical in performance.
You forgot about the lockbox shipa which are mostly escorts: D'kora, Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, Orb Weaver, Wells Class, Mobius Class, Korath Class, Krenn Class, and A Qin Raptor. Thats a hell of alot more escorts than cruiser coming out as of recent. The new assault cruiser is the only new cruiser on the that has come out.
For as the other statement about escorts supposed to be more powerful, there is no manual or canon material that says so. Don't be so caught up in the BS that Cryptic feeds you because they are not feeding you with information from any Star Trek canon site. They are making up stuff as they go along just because they are the Devs. I have read the sites on cannons and phaser banks and arrays. I have read sites on the smaller attack ships and the regular cruisers.
"In starship classification, an escort vessel was a starship whose primary purpose is to accompany other vessels as a means of protection. Escorts typically protected lesser armed vessels, or vessels carrying an important cargo.
In 2154, Degra's ship was protected by two Xindi-Reptilian warships, which served as escort ships, during the proving ground Xindi superweapon prototype test mission in the Calindra system. (ENT: "Proving Ground")
In 2368, a radical faction based on the Beta moon of Peliar Zel intercepted the Federation shuttlecraft Hawking claiming to be an escort vessel. (TNG: "The Host")
The Defiant-class, originally developed to counter the Borg, is officially classified as an escort vessel, but was unofficially a warship. (DS9: "The Search, Part I")."
Half the ships you just described are not escorts. Some of them are sci ships and cruisers. If you are trying to play them as escorts you are doing it wrong.
Also, by that same argument Cryptic just released 9 cruisers. The Oddy + Oddy Package and the Bort + Bort Package + Regent
Half the ships you just described are not escorts. Some of them are sci ships and cruisers. If you are trying to play them as escorts you are doing it wrong.
Also, by that same argument Cryptic just released 9 cruisers. The Oddy + Oddy Package and the Bort + Bort Package + Regent
and even a "noob" who "suck"s can beat the oddy (with and without full oddy console set) in an excelsior the day they got it using a tac RA and nothing better than Mk VIII on the ship and can put the regent to shame with an engineer VA in an Excelsior with most stuff at Mk XII (consoles being the only exception)
and even a "noob" who "suck"s can beat the oddy (with and without full oddy console set) in an excelsior the day they got it using a tac RA and nothing better than Mk VIII on the ship and can put the regent to shame with an engineer VA in an Excelsior with most stuff at Mk XII (consoles being the only exception)
Thats odd. Some of the best PvP players in the game fly the Oddy. And they don't sux.
I've PvP'ed in the BortasQu in both Kerrat and the Ques. I know just how slow a Cruiser can be on its on without using something to boost thier speed and turn.
I never said you had to run form an escort to let them get in your six, only that once there they are happy becuase all you can do is try to run and shoot at them with just 4 Beam Arrays, some mines, etc.
Still just jumping to conclusions, you are.
So you lack the ability to imagine hypothetical situations?
and thanks for the romp down memory lane.
Well, it sounded like you implied that i fly with my backside facing my opponents on purpose.
I don't have to imagine a military versions of a plane because know military tech and civilian tech. There couldn,t be a military version of it without changing the whole wings of the plane thus changing what it does. If you made the 787 a military plane, it would have to be a new type of AWACS because that plane don't make manuvers that are drastic from civilian airliners.
I think you misunderstood my first point. Only cruisers would get this weapon multiplier and not escorts.
And the weapons are not really that different. Sure a beam array does far less damage than a cannon, but then you can shoot 8 at the same time, but only 4 cannons. If you do a plain dps calculation (without any mods etc.) you will see that a 4 cannons 3 turrets vs. 8 beams setup is only ~15% different.
My second suggestion would improve an 8-beam setup in such a way that it would actually be superior to a cannon setup in terms of raw dps. What makes escorts so powerful are still the BOs and the console slot...
You weren't around during the early days were you?
Back in those days cruisers were the only ship + FAW the only ability. People were very, very glad to see that end. Even cruiser pilots.
Thats odd. Some of the best PvP players in the game fly the Oddy. And they don't sux.
In all fairness when it comes to my fleet I am the one with the most PvP experience, I have dabbled in it and survived better than I expected, I became a better team player as a result.
I will admit the only ones I have fought were those of my fleetmates and they really can't handle the shield strip of 6 tetryon beams but all their builds presented weaknesses that I exploited, one was in his skill cycles, the regent was the metryon gas, a little metryon gas plus warp plasma = premature detonation = decent damage to the regent, lay down some tetryon fire on the rear shield and you can really punish the pilot.
Half the ships you just described are not escorts. Some of them are sci ships and cruisers. If you are trying to play them as escorts you are doing it wrong.
Also, by that same argument Cryptic just released 9 cruisers. The Oddy + Oddy Package and the Bort + Bort Package + Regent
Nice try, hahaha. Reselling us the Oddy, 4 times don't count as bringing us new cruisers, same as the extra Bortas as well.
Does that mean there is a chance for the age of escort domination to come to an end at some point?
I have been playing for nearly two years and I will tell you one thing.
STO is a game of cycles.
Yes, I believe that we are in the "escort-age" and do you want to know why?
PvP is struggling. Cryptic is desperate to capture the interest of the MMO market. And most kids just love to blow things up, and escorts provide that attraction more than cruisers or sci ships at the moment in my opinion.
I have 2x science captains (Atrox, Voqov), 2x engineer captains (Oddy, Bort), and 2x tactical captains (MVAM, Jemmy). Depending on the team I am with, I decide which ship to use. Each ship does its job very well.
I can say one thing from experience as a cruiser captain. I always loose the match when I am focused soley on dps and not on supporting my team. When I support my team, we rarely loose.
Comments
In D&D, one of the most classical pen&paper games, the cleric is one of the most dangerous class available, beating fighter without problem at high levels when he can cast his magic. I don't know where the modern idea of defenseless and teethless healer archetype comes from ...
And sorry, but if you want to see it from the fantasy point of view, then an escort would be no fighter. Fighter mostly are not specialists in dealing damage, thats what mages/rogues are for. In fact, since escort can tank, deal damage and also heal them self they would be a multiclass mage-fighter-cleric ... For Klingons you can replace mage by rogue ...
well, racial traits...skills...accolades...weapon modifiers...range. this list can go on and on and on.
fact is, this can only be compared in an environment that is specifically designed for that evaluation. And taking your word, no offense here meant, is just not enough without some hard evidence.
combat logs, 1vs1 testing environment and so on would be a start...anything esle is subjective and speculative.
Not every cruiser is designed to be on the DD side of the spectrum, but every escort is.
A tac/escort combo will put out double the DPS of a eng/cruiser. And can still tank anything in an elite STF.
And the theory that sci captains are weak while eng captains are not is just, amazingly incorrect.
How so?
To hear how the game plays from the "PvP players", and a little bit from personal experience, this post is so full of "huh?" that I can't figure it out...
1. A well flown cruiser can heal everything that 2-4 escorts can pump out, and barely break a sweat. Also, it doesn't really worry about where this damage is going, they can effectively keep anybody alive.
2. This is the only truth in the post...
3. When you look at, especially, PvP roles, that's how you get the "sci = weak" deal. To wit: Tac/Escorts are the "killers", primarily through "massive spike damage" - clearly defined, useful, and necessary role. Engie/Cruisers are "healers", again, clearly defined, useful, necessary. Science/Science, by virtue of nerfed powers and 3/3 weapons can't even perform a "sustained pressure damage" role that a cruiser (barely) executes. Paper hull means that a targetted Sci/Sci has to divert a majority of the heals to itself, meaning that it can't heal as well as a cruiser can. This leaves Science the "clearly defined role" of cruiser-pusher (TBR cruiser out of the fight so escorts can blow up targets that aren't being healed) and subnuc beamer (and they can subnuc beam from an escort / cruiser as well as a sci, and certain ships - MVAE anyone - can TBR with the best of them).
To back this up with a couple of my PvE experiences:
1. Sci in a Luna tanking tac cube at end of infected: due to lack of hull heals on highly offensive science build, was being blown up every 40% damage dealt to cube while being aggro magnet and never losing a shield. Granted, this PuG was so lame that a Sci/Sci with zero threat control could somehow maintain aggro, I probably would have succeeded with zero fatalities if even one cruiser bothered to heal me...
2. Buffed Armitage with danube fighters blows up mirror battleship in 3 hits due to string of 3x 7k+ critical hits, boosted due to tractor beam from runabout. Same effect could occur with MVAE that has extra science slot to divert to TB instead of fighters...
3. Cruiser takes as long as my Science did to play most missions (sustained DPS only), but only blew up when I was complete bonehead (forgot to slot resistances to plasma on Rommie front & heal appropriately, BFAW in massive battles of 2048 series, etc.
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
youare kidding, this wil mess up the STF because i nearly never see anengeneer on a cruiser with a good aggromanagment. So this is why escorts have to tank in estf's.
This looks like a big QQ from cruiser-captains who dont know their roll in games.
and in pvp its like in all other games: to kill an well played enemy, fokus your fire!
R.I.P
How about if at 5km a 6 beam cruiser with 3 consoles dedicated to the energy type used could sit unbuffed and so 400-600 DPH (Damage per hit, as a cruiser this figure is more informative than DPS) BUT this figure would not climb by more than 100 at 1km, thus giving cruisers the ability to stay out of the say of escorts, get more out of their firing arcs and monitor the battlefield all from a good cruiser suiting distance. We all know cruisers were never supposed to get up close to enemies the way escorts are hence the difference in manoeuvrability:
Cruisers are meant slow with large firing arcs so they can stay out of the danger-zone and still land a good amount of damage effortlessly.
Escorts are meant to be quick with small firing arcs so they can get up close dodge a lot of fire and when they manage to hit something with a good high powered volley it hurts and vice versa.
What I am proposing gives cruisers the battlefield overview they were always meant to have, takes advantage of their speed, turn rate and when the escorts get within their 1-3km zone (for which they were designed) they will do lots more damage than the cruisers, so I'm still not putting escorts out of a job but giving cruisers a much appreciated ability to do some easy damage (for the less specialised of us).
I think even the escort pilots would like this, they get us out of their area, we can do a far better job of laying down support damage (as such they can relax a little), we can better see what's going on and thereby better co-ordinate our team support and lead groups with our increased line of sight.
Please do feel free to play with the figures a little (I did draft these from a mix of the top of my head and my exp pre season six combined with the cruisers primary role).
They need to balance the game so over whelming Burst damage is not required to overcome the even higher Burst healing capacity of the Engie/Cruiser and Science classes of the game.
R.I.P
I second this, hence my suggestion, I think it's quite agreeable for all involved parties, if not it can of course be adapted but I think it is the first constructive thing in this thread or a while
Wait, now you want to NERF Cruisers?
I mean, at least my beams already deal ~700-900 damage per hit, even at 8-9km range, using EPtW cycling, and ~600 unbuffed.
And that's as an Engineer in a Mirror Assault Cruiser (=Assault Cruiser with Shovel-look).
Your 400-600 DPH would translate to 1920-2880 DPS ... and i currenly get 3.5k+ (closer to 4k if I don't get oneshot).
What the F%$& are you smoking?
Let me be totally blunt here:
YOU SUCK!
I don't know if you suck Donkey-, Elephant- or even Brontosaur-balls, but ...
YOU SUCK!
Get that in your head.
If Cryptic buffed Cruisers so that YOU would be competetive with even a halfway competent Escort, then a well-played Cruiser with a Tac-captain would break past 10k DPS, sustained!
Use the time you spend spamming the forum with your crack-pipe-fueled ideas, and instead get some basic skills, at least equal to a trained monkey. And lay of the drugs.
Maybe you'll see then just how bad you were, and just how ridiculous your ideas are ....
I don't have to run from an escort for him to get on my back. Escorts can fly around me in circles faster than I can turn in one direction. The fact that you made that statement shows that you never, ever flew a slow turning cruiser in a PVP match. Every cruiser pilot knows how fast escorts can fly around your ship.
No, I can't virtually imagine a weaponized military version of a 787 because, in my 13 years of military service, I have learned how much different the military planes are made and perform in comparison to civilian airliners. The closest things that come to an airliner in the military are the cargo transports, they are not armed with weapons, just coutermeasures. Military planes' wings are sept at a different angle than civilian planes for added manuverability to evade attack. Civilian planes are built for comfort and will never have to roll or do loops. I was soldier who deployed many times using civilian planes, C-130's, C-141's and C-17's. In one of my in country deployments, I experienced zero G for 2 minutes in a C-17. We passingers were not ready for the steep decent and went flying with all of our gear. A C-17 can stop in less than 200 meters on a runway when landing. In one of my Iraq deployments, I saw this with my own eyes, and this plane happen to be picking us up. In another Iraq deployements, we took off with such a steep climb that my buddies to the left and right of me passed out from the G forces, and the plane did a half loop and a full role. They flew like this in combat situations to make it harder for weapons lock from Stinger gunning terrorist below. You will never see that in a civilian plane. I use World War 2 as a better comparison because those were the days when we had dogfights between larger planes and smaller ones. Plus the larger planes were armed with guns as well as bombs. Today, we don't fight that way anymore because most of the enemies we fight don't have large impressive air forces, and most of the attacks on air come from the ground. The last time we had dogfights were in the Gulf War, there were no bombers under threat of other planes.
R.I.P
My beams manage a little over 500 DPH at 5km with EPtW cycling I scrape 300 unbuffed so for me this would be an upgrade and this is AFTER I refined my character and ship build in favour of beams
So on these grounds yes I do suck, apparently I suck majorly but me being me I won't deny that as I have no self respect so yeah, call me what you will.
Fine. Now you can choose between three options:
A) Cryptic hates YOU! YOU, personally. And makes your Cruiser deal less damage than everyone else's.
C) You suck, you're a Noob, and if you want to break out of that cycle of failing - complaining - failing even harder, you have to start listening to advice instead.
What will it be?
This "Cruiser sucks"-complaining is not helping. At all. Just to the contrary. Since everyone seems to think so, since it seems to be accepted truth, people ACCEPT that their Cruisers fail, and deal no damage. They don't seem to know that it doesn't have to be that way, so they don't even try.
These threads actually do harm.
Make a thread in the Shipyard "Why do I suck at Cruiser, post your full build (weapons, components, BOffs, DOffs) and keybinds, and I'll tell you excactly how to do it.
Then try it, and come back after you've learned what a Cruiser can really do - is that so hard?
Ok... I'll start yet another *sigh*
Out of curiuosity, did your first one not help? at all?
R.I.P
Excuse me if I sound rude, but how does a cruiser dishing out the same DPS as a escort while still benefiting from vastly superior hull and tanking ability seem like balance?
Escorts that are able to tank well do so because their pilots are skilled at it.
Not really, I found the cycling EPtX really failed dismally in my hands, I trid to do it but I always found the next one in line to be on cooldown or I got blown up because I needed something that was unavailable to me. I find I can usually put a hole in those build though, there is usually some weakness (usually warp plasma) that I exploit the moment it shows up and while it isn't a game ender it's enough to keep a stalemate going
Leave it to someone like yourself who doesn't know bullistics, to tell me what guns will do and won't do. I shot many calibur weapons for 13 years because it was my job. Not only did I shoot them but had to know the mechanics of the weapon, affecective ranges and damage done by these weapons. I shot 5.56, 7.62, 9mm, 50 Cal., 25mm, 30mm, 40mm, and 120mm. I ran ranges and did battle damage assesments in the US and in Iraq. If it has anything to do with grunts and tankers, I did it. The planes are armed with 30mm machine guns in those days. The size of one round is as thick as 3 of your fingers together will make a hole in 12 inch thick aluminum armor of a M113, large enough to put you head through it. That's a light, medium armored army vehicle, so imagine the round going through a thiner skin plane with wind speeds 200-300 mph. If the holes don't split your wings, the wind will finish the job. Fighter planes's structure can't stand the 300 mph wind pressure after it's structure beams have been split by 30mm bullets. The planes will decentergrate after the pressure, so if you think those guns can't destroy planes, you are sadly mistaken.
I don't think taking some of the turn rate from the escort will solve the problem because there ships like the Galaxy types that are at the bottom rung of the turn rate latter. We players has been asking for a turn rate boost for the Galaxy types since the game's launch, yet the Devs don't think we need one. I sight balancing the weapons as a better way to even the playing field without making all the ships totally identical in performance.
Half the ships you just described are not escorts. Some of them are sci ships and cruisers. If you are trying to play them as escorts you are doing it wrong.
Also, by that same argument Cryptic just released 9 cruisers. The Oddy + Oddy Package and the Bort + Bort Package + Regent
and even a "noob" who "suck"s can beat the oddy (with and without full oddy console set) in an excelsior the day they got it using a tac RA and nothing better than Mk VIII on the ship and can put the regent to shame with an engineer VA in an Excelsior with most stuff at Mk XII (consoles being the only exception)
Thats odd. Some of the best PvP players in the game fly the Oddy. And they don't sux.
You weren't around during the early days were you?
Back in those days cruisers were the only ship + FAW the only ability. People were very, very glad to see that end. Even cruiser pilots.
In all fairness when it comes to my fleet I am the one with the most PvP experience, I have dabbled in it and survived better than I expected, I became a better team player as a result.
I will admit the only ones I have fought were those of my fleetmates and they really can't handle the shield strip of 6 tetryon beams but all their builds presented weaknesses that I exploited, one was in his skill cycles, the regent was the metryon gas, a little metryon gas plus warp plasma = premature detonation = decent damage to the regent, lay down some tetryon fire on the rear shield and you can really punish the pilot.
Does that mean there is a chance for the age of escort domination to come to an end at some point?
Nice try, hahaha. Reselling us the Oddy, 4 times don't count as bringing us new cruisers, same as the extra Bortas as well.
Name a cruiser from my list?
I have been playing for nearly two years and I will tell you one thing.
STO is a game of cycles.
Yes, I believe that we are in the "escort-age" and do you want to know why?
PvP is struggling. Cryptic is desperate to capture the interest of the MMO market. And most kids just love to blow things up, and escorts provide that attraction more than cruisers or sci ships at the moment in my opinion.
I have 2x science captains (Atrox, Voqov), 2x engineer captains (Oddy, Bort), and 2x tactical captains (MVAM, Jemmy). Depending on the team I am with, I decide which ship to use. Each ship does its job very well.
I can say one thing from experience as a cruiser captain. I always loose the match when I am focused soley on dps and not on supporting my team. When I support my team, we rarely loose.