I have to agree with Hereticknight on all counts, except washing ones hands of this thread, it's still salvageable and while the devs will never bother to read it (it's not made by an escort pilot for the benefit of escorts) it's still nice to see some people actually care about balance within the game
wait what? you srsly believe that the pylons of your ship stop your beams from fireing? Rest assured, all 8 beams are fireing as intended on any design...the visuals are only cosmetic and do not allways represent the actualy fireing cycle.
hillarous actually that you brought that to the "attention" of the developement team...they surely had a good laugh.
I bet as usual without any numbers supporting that claim.
i sacrifice 5-6 boff slots for survival and heal abilities, thats whats keeping me alive not the borg set...to rely on the borg set is foolish. I use the borg set because it has more favourable stats than the other sets, the heals are just a bonus.
i'm also getting some mixed messages from you. First you say escort are generally too strong, then you claim you shoot them down on a regular bases, then they allways run away and escape defeat. You say escorts are so much superior to cruisers...yet you fail to pick one up yourself, and realize that escorts aren't that indestructable demons you think they are.
most (if not to say all) of the cruiser pilots in this thread do not use their cruiser because they think it is the best ship for their style of playing...they fly it because they like the looks. And rather to change into a ship they do not like (by the looks) they demand to beef up the ships they like best. ridiculous!
And proclaiming the cruiser is broken or not balanced, when in fact you just don't know how and when to use it is even more ridiculous.
as is this whole weekly "buff cruisers thread event" here on the forum.
all i can agree on, however, is a turnrate increase for cruisers...no ship should be lower than 8 in my opinion.
Just because I'm complaining don't mean I'm a crappy player. I can see the injustice even if I'm not the victim all the time. I can bring to the dev's attention to whatever I like, and I don't need your approval. Its that smug arrogant attitude, that comes with alot of escort players who blog on here, who likes trying to bully others because the game is easy for them, and only them. If your ship was nerfed tomorow, you would choke on that laugh and be crying like baby because your advantage would've evaporated. You have anything else to say?
I see a lot of "escort captains this" "cruiser captains that" do people really only pilot one type of ship? Even when I only had 1 level 50 I would switch from escort to cruiser and back on occaision for variety. You guys really can't understand both sides of this if you only pilot one or the other.
I think cruisers and escorts are all just fine, the balance is pretty good. You can even out damage escorts sometimes at the cost of some survivavbility in a cruiser if set up right, escpecially if you are in an Oddy, Bortasqu, or Fleet Vorcha.
Where the imbalance lies is the gear. MACO and 3pc borg is overpowered and this needs to be balanced. The 4pc borg set should be required for the shield heal, and the 3pc set should give the tractor beam thus forcing ships to choose between full borg, MACO, Omega or HG sets. Cruisers will still be able to tank good without MACO and 3pc borg, and escorts won't be able to quite as much anymore.
I know many choose to use their escorts to do the hard missions and matches. I know this because I have buddies that do it all the time. They use their escort over the cruiser in PVP. Why? Because you get more kills and escape being destroyed easily. They choose escorts over the cruisers in Elite STF's. Why? Because you can inflict more damage on the Borg, and escape its one shot kills by its "crit" torpedos. You can complete the mission alot faster and get the secondary objective when you are flying an escort. In a cruiser you can only hope to try to destroy the borgs with its beefed up hull and your weak powered beams that run out of power because of inefficient power ratings. You can only hope survive in a cruiser against an escort in PVP because he is able to inflict high critical damage through your shields and remain on you backside till you are destroyed with no threat from you. If you have half health and full shields, they can easily destroy you with a high crit volley inflicting 33K DPS or higher, no matter if you use RSP or Tac Team. I don't care how you look at it, that is not fair to non-escort pilots.
On the note about the Borg console/ MACO shield setup, I have called this to people's attention in many past threads but yet have been ignored. All successful PVP teams use it. I think its not fair to have players healing autonimously without him having to hit a power button. It has turned alot of these escorts into super tanks, pushing the imbalance further in their favor. I think its time for it to be nerfed like Aegis setup or inoperational without its' full 4 piece set.
I have 3 toons on each side, all 3 professions. I fly elite STFs with 500 ping typically and manage to do better than most people I tend to PuG with. I dislike MMO style pvp and avoid it. I consider myself to have mediocre player skill but high system mastery. I don't quite know everything but I do know quite a bit.
Cruisers and sci vessels are worthless in elite STFs
- Myth, they can still bring enough to the party to get the optional with ease
There is a role, aside from DPS, that is worthwhile in elite STFs
- Myth, if your ship can't tank something by itself, or be bothered to pack a single cc/team ability its a bad build
Cruisers can out-tank escorts
- Myth, boff abilities may allow this on a case by case basis but due to defense stat, focus on resist/sustain tanking, and a few other things an escort actually has more raw tank. Simply put if [acc] is the best damage stat what do you think is the best tank stat?
Any element of this game is well balanced
- Myth, cannon vs beam, eng capt. vs others, majority of boff abilities in game, etc. Its just that the game is so incredibly easy that most players don't even realize the huge gap between optimal and acceptable. What was that video of CSE clear time, 4 minutes full clear I think....compared to your average PuG....
wow, you people really see yourself as the victim of some grave injustice, that the cruisers aer not the DD class in this game. This is the main concern here. That you can't fly your pretty ship the way you want and still be the best captain kirk around.
guess what, you are not the victim of some escort captain colaboration...you are the victim of your own narrowmindedness towards your your favourite cruisers. And opening another thread about "how bad cruisers are", next week doesn't make it true, or will change that for you. Only when this game reached the point where cruisers and escorts and sci ships are indestinguishable from each other we may see a drop in new "buff cruiser" posts.
@alexincobra: but i think you are a crappy player, because you complain constantly about things that do not exist/happen the way you observe them...therefore making you complain invalid.
in the past, you complained about: tac team...which turned out you had no idea what it actually does.
cruisers ofcourse...multiple times. The famous "it doesn't make since post"
your nebula/galaxy-r shield controversy...a subjective observation, where you didn't even use a similar setup or an adequat testing environment.
then the firerate of turrets, where you completely ignored that those have a 360 degree arc.
most other stuff you brought to the "atention" of the community is purely cosmetic, that shows where your focus in this game is "looks" thats why you use cruisers in the first place. And thats the whole issue people here have with cruisers. They want their favourite ship to be the best ship. Call me ignorant for pointing that out, but it is the truth.
@hereticknight085: yeah, i'm not your opinion, therefore close minded...what ever. This post aren't looking for help...i can't tell you how to buid a cruiser thats worth something if you think yours is already the pinacle of cruiser builds. Apparently not, since you would not ask for a cruiser buff, or a super beam to compensate for your low dps.
i use a oddy starcruiser with my eng captain, and it is a blast to play it in stfs and sometimes even pvp. i enjoy certain cruisers as they are right now. Some are just TRIBBLE, all galaxy variants for instance (they need slight boff adjustment, nothing more), but others are really fun to play with.
Another thing i fully agree with is a turnrate increase for cruisers. Atleast +1 to all cruisers (better +2) would make them even mor fun to play with, while not drastically change how they feel while playing.
Slight adjustments can make a great impact...no need for rethinking the whole ship classes.
ok well i must say i use the galor and regent both are cruisers and i do just fine VS escorts in dps i have been clocked at around 8.8k dps(burst) 7k dps over all using all beams so i don't see where you get this belief that cruisers can't do dps from. just use the ones that are designed to do dps. not the ones designed to tank. my fleet had pvp the other night and i took out one of our defiant guys every time in my galor. the last 2 weeks my galor has had top dps in the pvp matches. so i think its learn what each ship can do and what each ship can not.
And thats the whole issue people here have with cruisers. They want their favourite ship to be the best ship. Call me ignorant for pointing that out, but it is the truth.
I don't care that my Excelsior isn't THE BEST for damage, I don't care that it's not THE BEST ship in the game, and I'm the first to admit that its not.
What I want is for it to do competent damage, I can tank all I like in a 1 to 1, I am very hard for a solo player to bring down whatever they happen to be flying (though I can laugh at other cruisers trying it, I barely notice most of them). My point being that the day before season 6 went live I had the best ship FOR ME I could tank ANYTHING because I was putting out sufficient damage to keep my enemies on their toes and if I maxed out I could force them to take a defensive stance at which point there was no recovering for them (without skill/help) at that point the game was fun, I'd played with 5 builds on the ship and settled on one that worked for me. The day after season 6 went live (with absolutely NO changes to by build) my damage figures were half what they were the day before and the rate at which I was killing enemies probably 1/4 of what it was before season 6.
So baudl, please explain how I am a crappy player with no idea of how to build my ship or how to play the game etc, etc.
I don't care that my Excelsior isn't THE BEST for damage, I don't care that it's not THE BEST ship in the game, and I'm the first to admit that its not.
What I want is for it to do competent damage, I can tank all I like in a 1 to 1, I am very hard for a solo player to bring down whatever they happen to be flying (though I can laugh at other cruisers trying it, I barely notice most of them). My point being that the day before season 6 went live I had the best ship FOR ME I could tank ANYTHING because I was putting out sufficient damage to keep my enemies on their toes and if I maxed out I could force them to take a defensive stance at which point there was no recovering for them (without skill/help) at that point the game was fun, I'd played with 5 builds on the ship and settled on one that worked for me. The day after season 6 went live (with absolutely NO changes to by build) my damage figures were half what they were the day before and the rate at which I was killing enemies probably 1/4 of what it was before season 6.
So baudl, please explain how I am a crappy player with no idea of how to build my ship or how to play the game etc, etc.
i don't know, i didn't experiance any drop in my cruiser. and the patchnotes of season 6 do not suggest any nerf or change. (although that doesn't mean much)
i use single cannons and turrets, and my dps is somewhere around 5.5k (thats counting all the weapons dps when in combat or orbiting earth)
i can't answere your question since i don't know what the cause for your drop in dps was...mine didn't change over night.
As it happens I run a 6 beam Excelsior with an engineer at the helm and if she were restored to what she was before season 6 it would be perfect for me, I would have 0 issues with ship combat in the game, I like that escorts have higher damage than me, I like the idea that (back then) I could be in a 3 man team (Tac+escort, me and sci+sci ship) and I could make a noticeable contribution to the damage figures WHILE healing the others and/or damage sponging.
I don't want the GAMES perfect cruiser build, I wan MY perfect cruiser build (which I found) and I want it RETURNED to it's former usefulness.
As a casual player, is that really too much to ask?
As it happens I run a 6 beam Excelsior with an engineer at the helm and if she were restored to what she was before season 6 it would be perfect for me, I would have 0 issues with ship combat in the game, I like that escorts have higher damage than me, I like the idea that (back then) I could be in a 3 man team (Tac+escort, me and sci+sci ship) and I could make a noticeable contribution to the damage figures WHILE healing the others and/or damage sponging.
I don't want the GAMES perfect cruiser build, I wan MY perfect cruiser build (which I found) and I want it RETURNED to it's former usefulness.
As a casual player, is that really too much to ask?
do you have any statistical figures or some dmg logg prior to season 6? as i said before, others did not experiance that drop in dmg. to pinpoint your problem some more data would be great. maybe it can be fixed via some minor change.
maybe the 100% hitrate of fire at will did have that big of an impact...maybe.
I can tell you from memory (mainly because of the drop) before season six I was doing 400 damage per hit, per beam, on all 6 beams, post season 6 I'm doing 200 per hit, per beam, with the same hit rate. (All 6 beams are Tetryon Mk XII [Borg] with 3 Mk XI tetryon pulse gens (Blue qual))
Before season 6 I was able to take down a CSE BoP with 3-5 volleys now its 5-10 volleys
When maxed out I was touching the 2k - 2.5k per hit mark, now I can barely scrape 1800 per hit.
My power levels were (and still are):
100/80
90/70
50/25
40/25
When maxed out was running:
EPS power transfer, EPtW 1, nadion inversion, tac team 1 and (if there was only 1 target within range) FAW 1
Now I run the same with FAW 3 instead thus opening a slot for AP:B 1 just to help with the damage figures
the dps value for each beam should be around 700 and above (750 normaly, depending on powerlevel and modifiers)
anything below 700 is seriously gimped or bugged, because there is allways the chance of a major TRIBBLE up on cryptics side.
thats the dps value of each beam when in orbit without any buffs.
the dps value for each beam should be around 700 and above (750 normaly, depending on powerlevel and modifiers)
anything below 700 is seriously gimped or bugged, because there is allways the chance of a major TRIBBLE up on cryptics side.
thats the dps value of each beam when in orbit without any buffs.
That's the thing you see, I'm well aware of what the stats are in the stores but I don't expect this to be sorted as Cryptic denies any and all TRIBBLE ups unless forced to come clean.
the scary thing is that I use a 2 beam broadside on my escorts (just so I can do damage when I have the exact same turn rate as my enemy) and I get 500 damage per hit per beam (phasers on the escort with 3 phaser consoles (keep the last for a subspace jumper))
That's the thing you see, I'm well aware of what the stats are in the stores but I don't expect this to be sorted as Cryptic denies any and all TRIBBLE ups unless forced to come clean.
the scary thing is that I use a 2 beam broadside on my escorts (just so I can do damage when I have the exact same turn rate as my enemy) and I get 500 damage per hit per beam (phasers on the escort with 3 phaser consoles (keep the last for a subspace jumper))
you waste a tac console slot for a subspace jumper...and use beams on an escort...interesting.
You can't say cryptic screwed up, if the only thing you have to support this is subjective claims. You will need some hard evidence...parser loggs, "store" (which they aren't) values are perfectly fine to compare buffs, builds etc...
500 is perfectly normal, since your target will also have some considerable buffs running to minimize incoming dmg. and a beam on an escort is not better than the beam on a cruiser. it may be, because of higher powerlevels.
Speak for yourself, maybe you enjoy flying around in escorts causing mayhem, but everbody else that would like to fly a different ship don't. Its not fun when you are in a PVP match and see all the escort players are getting all the kills and escaping being destroyed, while you are struggling in your cruiser or science ship to stay alive. It is not fun in PVE missions when the players with escorts get all the credit for kills, earning First and 2nd place, getting the very rare drops. You and your cruiser barley kills enough, and get stuck with common or uncommon drops. Thats lopsided and unfair. The Devs rewarding a certain group of players over another is not fair and fun for all. Most true Star Trek fans favor the cruisers because that what's mostly in the shows, but the devs in this game are bent on marginalizing us to make fun for themselves and other MMO players.
Fun for all does not come with unfairness.
I?m afraid that in my attempt to be politically correct and polite to Cryptic in my earlier post I have been misunderstood. I agree with you 100% and then some.
I fly in all different kinds of ships with Eng, Tac & Sci VAs and below, but my favorite is, or was, Cruiser Engineer. There is clearly a problem with Eng/Cruiser playability right now that the devs need to address. What I meant to say is that when one has played in many different and enjoyable MMOs one recognizes that a fun and balanced game has been created when all the classes have been given an equal slice of the pie and can contribute meaningfully both in a group and solo environment. ATM cruisers and Scis clearly don?t to this as you and so many others in this forum have pointed out.
And one of the reasons they fail is that the time honored class distinctions of Damage Dealer, Tank and Crowd Control are only superficially present with one class being highly favored, bringing frustration to everyone else. As you and others have said, escorts can deal massive damage, tank to a large extent, and due to their overwhelming fire power, speed and maneuverability have little need to be concerned with crowd control. Cruisers, on the other hand, are only the semblance of a tank. In LOTRO, for example my tank can take on five mobs, hold their attention despite the action of others, and dispatch them in short order. And while a DD could more quickly deal with each mob if handled separately and consecutively, he would be easily overwhelmed trying to deal with 2 or more at a time. This is certainly not the situation we have in STO. Cruisers getting and holding the attention of more than one npc is difficult with only our FAW mass agro skill, while escorts using aoe attacks like CSV and TS not only immediately pull agro but outright pulverize them before cruisers can make more than a dent in a single npc.
If Cryptic wants cruisers to be a tank, then give them the skills and abilities to properly do so. We need more agro control and then a way to deal damage to the npcs. You?re right it?s not fun to fly around, slowly like a brick, trying to reach mobs while the escorts have already dispatched them and moved on to the next set of targets. Give escorts a reason to want to have cruiser around, just as we want them around for their dps. Give us a meaningful role and the ability to fulfill that role. We see the intent but the execution is sorely lacking. I laugh when I fly around in my escort because there is no comparison with the way it is more effective in all the missions compared with my cruiser, and I?d like to think I?m a pretty darn good cruiser captain.
If Cryptic wants cruisers to be a tank, then give them the skills and abilities to properly do so. We need more agro control and then a way to deal damage to the npcs. You?re right it?s not fun to fly around, slowly like a brick, trying to reach mobs while the escorts have already dispatched them and moved on to the next set of targets. Give escorts a reason to want to have cruiser around, just as we want them around for their dps. Give us a meaningful role and the ability to fulfill that role. We see the intent but the execution is sorely lacking. I laugh when I fly around in my escort because there is no comparison with the way it is more effective in all the missions compared with my cruiser, and I?d like to think I?m a pretty darn good cruiser captain.
they did actually when introducing the respawn timer...escorts die more often in stfs than cruisers thats a fact...but before the timer it was irrelevant because you could respawn immediately over and over and over.
With a good tank cruiser around, escorts can deliver dmg, without running away for a minute to repair or respawn. Which results in lowering the duration of the encounter drastically.
Though a team of escorts, that actually can crossheal do not need a cruiser for the current endgame content. But the difficulty is not balanced around that kind of grp of players, it is balanced around the avarage cruiser captain that dies when aggroing a tactical cube or a gate.
i'm not against more aggro control, but right now threat control is sufficent. (a taunt ability for cruisers would be nice though)
in PVP they have the support/healer role...nothing wrong with that either.
and balancing ships around single player missions is really ridiculous. Just switch ships and do the mission if you want to do it faster.
All is a illusion everything just work fine, cruisers are really the ultimate killing machine and tanks, we are just blind that can?t see how nice they perform killing a sphere in a sweet waltz dancing motion, and we just have to learn how to make a dps parser to realize that a escort can kill 4 spheres in the time you finish your waltz 1 stroke, and that the fact that you can heal your mates but you can not doing indefinitely is irrelevant, and that a team of 5 cruisers is always going to win against a team of 5 escorts/destroyers and can going on.
What is your build, cap. type, and are their additional factors modifying your DPS that you yourself are not bringing to the party? I would love to test one of these builds and be proven wrong.
Only cruisers I fly that can even come close to the firepower of my escorts are the ones packing DHCs and those merely come close. Now granted if your friendly escort has given up his CRF 3 to slap an APB 3 on everything you shoot at they did make a great choice, but nearly half of your DPS is not actually yours.
Show me your build please. I am not calling you a liar or anything I just want to see the difference that is allowing you to get those DPS and make sure it is not just a silly error like using FAW on borg that insta-heal the damage messing up the log.
they did actually when introducing the respawn timer...escorts die more often in stfs than cruisers thats a fact...but before the timer it was irrelevant because you could respawn immediately over and over and over.
With a good tank cruiser around, escorts can deliver dmg, without running away for a minute to repair or respawn. Which results in lowering the duration of the encounter drastically.
Though a team of escorts, that actually can crossheal do not need a cruiser for the current endgame content. But the difficulty is not balanced around that kind of grp of players, it is balanced around the avarage cruiser captain that dies when aggroing a tactical cube or a gate.
i'm not against more aggro control, but right now threat control is sufficent. (a taunt ability for cruisers would be nice though)
in PVP they have the support/healer role...nothing wrong with that either.
and balancing ships around single player missions is really ridiculous. Just switch ships and do the mission if you want to do it faster.
I don't think i mentioned anything about balancing ships around single player missions, nor do I believe anyone else did...but I could be wrong.
wow, you people really see yourself as the victim of some grave injustice, that the cruisers aer not the DD class in this game. This is the main concern here. That you can't fly your pretty ship the way you want and still be the best captain kirk around.
guess what, you are not the victim of some escort captain colaboration...you are the victim of your own narrowmindedness towards your your favourite cruisers. And opening another thread about "how bad cruisers are", next week doesn't make it true, or will change that for you. Only when this game reached the point where cruisers and escorts and sci ships are indestinguishable from each other we may see a drop in new "buff cruiser" posts.
@alexincobra: but i think you are a crappy player, because you complain constantly about things that do not exist/happen the way you observe them...therefore making you complain invalid.
in the past, you complained about: tac team...which turned out you had no idea what it actually does.
cruisers ofcourse...multiple times. The famous "it doesn't make since post"
your nebula/galaxy-r shield controversy...a subjective observation, where you didn't even use a similar setup or an adequat testing environment.
then the firerate of turrets, where you completely ignored that those have a 360 degree arc.
most other stuff you brought to the "atention" of the community is purely cosmetic, that shows where your focus in this game is "looks" thats why you use cruisers in the first place. And thats the whole issue people here have with cruisers. They want their favourite ship to be the best ship. Call me ignorant for pointing that out, but it is the truth.
@hereticknight085: yeah, i'm not your opinion, therefore close minded...what ever. This post aren't looking for help...i can't tell you how to buid a cruiser thats worth something if you think yours is already the pinacle of cruiser builds. Apparently not, since you would not ask for a cruiser buff, or a super beam to compensate for your low dps.
i use a oddy starcruiser with my eng captain, and it is a blast to play it in stfs and sometimes even pvp. i enjoy certain cruisers as they are right now. Some are just TRIBBLE, all galaxy variants for instance (they need slight boff adjustment, nothing more), but others are really fun to play with.
Another thing i fully agree with is a turnrate increase for cruisers. Atleast +1 to all cruisers (better +2) would make them even mor fun to play with, while not drastically change how they feel while playing.
Slight adjustments can make a great impact...no need for rethinking the whole ship classes.
Baudi, I think you are a crappy player as well as a crappy person. You spend most of your time bashing people on there own threads because you don't agree with them. All you are doing is trying to provoke people into leaving or making them angry enough to curse you. I can see that you are a sociopath, who can't get along with others, so from here out, anything you say on my threads will be ignored and disregarded. You are not the best player, or have the most knowledge, so you can just buzz off my thread. I didn't ask you for your opinion, because I don't recognize jerks who only think of themselves.
Game mechanics is why cruisers seem weak. obvious? not really.
escorts, like the defiant armed with hard hitting cannons, a much more powerful weapon choice than beam arrays. so...what was the downside? cannons are free fire in the series...if your target managed to get out of the way you missed, and they weren't long range weapons because of that. greater the distance to target increases the likelihood of avoidance.
that's why it's a game mechanics problem...cannons shots in sto are guided, so their greatest actual weakness was nullified. beam arrays should have outpaced them in ranged combat, as the arrays have much higher arcs, faster response, and greater ability to keep the beam on the target then cannons do.
If cryptic hadn't gone with the simplistic targeting system they use, where to hit is calced instead of actually hitting your target with your shots cannon equipped ships wouldn't be so uber except in the hands of a very skilled captain. while cruisers able to lock on a target would output much more damage at range.
they didn't do that most likely because the degree of skill required to fly a cannon equipped ship would be much, much higher. and would require a reticule, and a target lead reticule.
how to fix? well they're not going to change the basic targeting and hit calc mechanics...but as a few suggested the powerdrain from beam arrays is ridiculous vs dps needs tweaked. or cruisers need tweaked with faster power recovery reflecting their larger power plants. prefer the latter, cruisers and any of the large ships should have better power capabilities by far than any escort sized ship.
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how to fix? well they're not going to change the basic targeting and hit calc mechanics...but as a few suggested the powerdrain from beam arrays is ridiculous vs dps needs tweaked. or cruisers need tweaked with faster power recovery reflecting their larger power plants. prefer the latter, cruisers and any of the large ships should have better power capabilities by far than any escort sized ship.
I agree with the whole rest of your post and would rather they did that as well as give us cruisers something utop that. However this is the one bit I disagree with "cruisers need tweaked with faster power recovery reflecting their larger power plants. prefer the latter" I prefer the former (and perhaps a bit of the latter but not too much), when you look at the power output vs consumption on both ships the ratio is about the same (there will be a little dereference) but when you look at it the cruisers power system produces more and uses that (has more systems to power) whereas the escort produces less and uses less (with less systems) but the ratio of production : usage remains about the same (with the escort perhaps being a little more efficient with less distance in power conduits etc).
however one would imagine that with the extra distance in power conduits etc that cruisers have their drain resist would be higher/power drain from all systems lower and I would very much like to see that reflected in a star trek game. this on top of the straight line firing of cannons and turrets. Before anyone has a go about that comment one of my characters would also be affected but I would like the added realism of it and that if I miss then it's not because of my targeting systems, it's due to my piloting.
Assuming a single target and FAW being active my build roughly peaks at 3,400 DPS.
Take away FAW and it drops down to 2,800. Stupidly large drop imo considering the low numbers to begin with(600DPS).
So I run a 2,800 DPS build.
An Escort with equivalent gear and specing (cannons instead of arrays etc) with its abilities activated peaks at roughly 6,900 DPS.
Remove those abilities and it drops to 3,700 DPS.
6,900-3,400=3,500
3,700-2,800=900
So between similarly equipped, roughly, we see a difference of 900-3,500 DPS.
And seeing as you can rotate abilities to increase overall sustained DPS for PvE or smash them all for PvP... that adds up.
Those aren't small numbers. Even at the closest point between the two its almost a full 33% more potent than the Cruiser's and at its highest its a almost a 50% increase over the Cruisers output.
This is assuming that its an Engineer in the Cruiser and a Tactical in the Escort.
Put the Tactical in the Cruiser and it peaks around 4,500 due to increased number of buffs provided from the Captain. And 2,950 without. That's a change of 1,540, yeesh.
6,900-4,500=2,400
3,700-2,950=750
A difference of 750-2,400
Tac Captain vs the Engineering Captain in the same Cruiser is:
4,500 peak for Tac
3,400 peak for Eng
2,950 low for Tac
2,800 low for Eng.
Escorts are stupid OP :eek::rolleyes::D
And Cruisers have some issues.
There are a few 'cheater' solutions that could easily be added.
1) Give beam arrays a single innate [acc] mod, like how DHC has crit mod.
2) Add 'rear beam arrays' to the game. Same exact stats as current beam arrays but only 8 or 9 energy drain. Perhaps lower arc to 160 from 180 if needed.
A much better, more detailed, and elegant solution though in my mind would be what I previously proposed in a feedback post.
The TLDR would be beams would perform better against high defense targets and cannons would perform better against high resist targets along with some weapons gaining a proc chance bonus.
Baudi, I think you are a crappy player as well as a crappy person. You spend most of your time bashing people on there own threads because you don't agree with them. All you are doing is trying to provoke people into leaving or making them angry enough to curse you. I can see that you are a sociopath, who can't get along with others, so from here out, anything you say on my threads will be ignored and disregarded. You are not the best player, or have the most knowledge, so you can just buzz off my thread. I didn't ask you for your opinion, because I don't recognize jerks who only think of themselves.
yeah, first i want to thank you for calling me a sociopath, because i do not agree with your arguments.
second i want to adress your incapability to actually play the class you chose to play.
and third i just think you are a poor minded person...but that goes without saying. what ever you say after that, i ignore, because it makes no "since" to quote your own words.
you fail to understand basic game mechanics...thats a shame, but to actualy claim them to be bugs is embarasing, even for a 5 year old...which seems you are. If you would spend half the time you spend into writeing post on the forum into actually learn the game mechanics you could see beyond your ignorance, but you won't. so therefore bye bye, live long and suck it.
yeah, first i want to thank you for calling me a sociopath, because i do not agree with your arguments.
second i want to adress your incapability to actually play the class you chose to play.
and third i just think you are a poor minded person...but that goes without saying. what ever you say after that, i ignore, because it makes no "since" to quote your own words.
you fail to understand basic game mechanics...thats a shame, but to actualy claim them to be bugs is embarasing, even for a 5 year old...which seems you are. If you would spend half the time you spend into writeing post on the forum into actually learn the game mechanics you could see beyond your ignorance, but you won't. so therefore bye bye, live long and suck it.
may want to change your choice of quote, the one you have used is irrelevant your argument
Just thought I'd point that out before you get an unnecessary reply
yeah, first i want to thank you for calling me a sociopath, because i do not agree with your arguments.
second i want to address your incapability to actually play the class you chose to play.
and third i just think you are a poor minded person...but that goes without saying. what ever you say after that, i ignore, because it makes no "since" to quote your own words.
you fail to understand basic game mechanics...thats a shame, but to actually claim them to be bugs is embarrassing, even for a 5 year old...which seems you are. If you would spend half the time you spend into writing post on the forum into actually learn the game mechanics you could see beyond your ignorance, but you won't. so therefore bye bye, live long and suck it.
you quoted me..and i said nothing of the sort. :rolleyes:
but, i fixed a few things for you (sp) and you were dead wrong in your original post anyway. it is game mechanics, poor game mechanics that make cruisers weak compared to an escort even if the same captain has flown both without changing their skills.
trying to say it's the players problem is ludicrous...it's how the game works. escorts, or rather dc/dhc equipped ships = more raw damage output vs cruisers captained with identical skills. i know...i've done it. dhc's change everything. their lower rof means they put more damage to the target when the do fire unlike beam arrays with a higher rof that broadside eat power like candy...consequently causing a rapid falloff in damage as they cycle since there's less recovery time.
sure...you can pump out EPtW and munch batteries, go with a specific build in an attempt to keep power high at all times...but there are still cd's. and under faw *nom nom nom*
there are several flaws in the current mechanics, the guided cannon shots just one of them. identical engagement ranges for all weapons another, identical power characteristics across all ships, lack of vertical...i could go on ._.
ah yes, and for someone with 'go pro or go home' perhaps you should heed your own sig, not very pro to quote the wrong person, misspell horribly while calling them a child, and not even understand fully what you claim to know.
Dr. Patricia Tanis ~ "Bacon is for sycophants and products of incest."
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
trying to say it's the players problem is ludicrous...it's how the game works. escorts, or rather dc/dhc equipped ships = more raw damage output vs cruisers captained with identical skills. i know...i've done it. dhc's change everything. their lower rof means they put more damage to the target when the do fire unlike beam arrays with a higher rof that broadside eat power like candy...consequently causing a rapid falloff in damage as they cycle since there's less recovery time.
sure...you can pump out EPtW and munch batteries, go with a specific build in an attempt to keep power high at all times...but there are still cd's. and under faw *nom nom nom*
there are several flaws in the current mechanics, the guided cannon shots just one of them. identical engagement ranges for all weapons another, identical power characteristics across all ships, lack of vertical...i could go on ._.
.
....I love you man.
Not many people on here seem to understand the problems with current weapon design in this game. I'm not an expert on the intricacies of power cycling and weapon drain but I can tell beam weapons seem harder on my power levels than an equal number of DHC's and turrets. Recently I've been of the opinion they should reduce the power drain of beam weapons by 1 point to make broadsides more viable for cruisers and sci ships. Some people really disagree with this as is their right.
Fun facts that don't exactly pertain to this discussion.
According to the starship weapons calculator 4x DBB at 125 weapons power does about 6 percent less damage than 8xbeam array at 125 weapon power.
At 100 power those 4 DBB's do about 10% more Damage than 8 beam arrays.
Any damage advantage of having 8 beam arrays versus 4 DBB is just about canceled out by the lower base damage of beam arrays and the increased energy drain of doubling your weapons on target.
and both of you completely ignore fireing arcs of those weapons, which are besides dmg, the main thing they are balanced around. Sure if you ignore fireing arcs then D(H)C, DBB seem the far better choice.
and comparing 4 DBB against 8 BA...is seriously flawed. i mean you see 8 beams leaving your ship but thats as much as this 2 builds would have in common. Those 2 weapons can't be compared without bringing the fireing arcs into account. Yeah, they both have an angle of 90 degrees, but the 8 beam has this on 2 sides + the rest of it front or back. Against the 90 degrees front of the DBB.
8 beams are meant to drain your weapon energy radically, thats why, you as a player is invited to either leave this setup in favour of some other weapons that do not drain energy constantly or add some powers to work against it. A tactical or science captain will probably not be able to make such a setup work as much as an engineer can.
this sentiment of players..."it doesn't work the way i would like it to work, therefore it must be a mechanical or a gameplay issue or a bug or cheaters" is basically wrong. there is hardly as much broken in this game as some may believe.
My friend alexindcobra is a specialist in bringing up such bogus gameplay bugs on a regular basis. In fact...this thread is just one of them, that drew a lot of attention of likeminded people. It seems to me that 70% of the players fly around in cruisers and sci vessels these days...90% of those have no idea how to build a good cruiser/sci vessel. It is only logical that this mass of people believe cruisers and beams need a buff, because they can't make it work the way they want it to.
PS: sorry for the wrong quote.
@veraticus. even my turrets (mk xii borg) on my cruiser that runs 116 weapon power are at 550 dps unbuffed with only 2 mark XI blue consoles. a beam array on a half decently build cruiser should be atleast above 700dps. Therefore 6 beams should be able to generate atleast 4200dps broadsideing.i guess you use MK XI or X gear for that numbers. Anyway...how many beams are you actually using in that calculation? 5 or 6...if 600 dps is one beam that would make 3600 dps with 6 amd 3000 dps with 5...but never 2800.
those numbers do not seem to be an adequat representation of what actually is on a cruiser or escort.
MKXII 3 DHC+3 turrets all borg reach 5700 dps on my fleet patrol with 124 weapon power. no buffs but 18% bonus accuracy, 3.4% crit chance 56% crit severity.
on the same ship a beam array MKXII borg has about 858dps with the same weapon power (some cruiser can actually reach that without buffs)
lowering that weapon power to 114 (which is a normal value for cruisers that max weapon power) the beam still was at 789 dps. this would mean a cruiser can broadside 6 beams at 4740dps...no buffs. thats nearly 2000 more than would you had and only 1000 less than the escort with 10 more weapon power. guess what, the escort with 114 weapon power only had around 5200dps thats only 400 more than the cruiser.
so, i think your numbers are completely manufactured and do not represent the reality in any way.
although i have to admit that was all with 4 mk xi consoles, but there are cruisers that also have 4 tac consoles.
i took 2 out anyway and was still at 694dps with only 114 weapon power. with 3 it was 741 dps. all numbers still well above yours.
90% of those have no idea how to build a good cruiser/sci vessel. It is only logical that this mass of people believe cruisers and beams need a buff, because they can't make it work the way they want it to.
I know full well you will count me in this 90% not because I don't know how to build a cruiser (heck I've flicked through the PvP guides, just none of their builds fitted me) and as I have previously stated I had a working build but with the introduction of season 6 my damage was halved and my hull buffed but then they took the hull buff away leaving me nothing to nothing to show for my lack of damage
Comments
Just because I'm complaining don't mean I'm a crappy player. I can see the injustice even if I'm not the victim all the time. I can bring to the dev's attention to whatever I like, and I don't need your approval. Its that smug arrogant attitude, that comes with alot of escort players who blog on here, who likes trying to bully others because the game is easy for them, and only them. If your ship was nerfed tomorow, you would choke on that laugh and be crying like baby because your advantage would've evaporated. You have anything else to say?
I know many choose to use their escorts to do the hard missions and matches. I know this because I have buddies that do it all the time. They use their escort over the cruiser in PVP. Why? Because you get more kills and escape being destroyed easily. They choose escorts over the cruisers in Elite STF's. Why? Because you can inflict more damage on the Borg, and escape its one shot kills by its "crit" torpedos. You can complete the mission alot faster and get the secondary objective when you are flying an escort. In a cruiser you can only hope to try to destroy the borgs with its beefed up hull and your weak powered beams that run out of power because of inefficient power ratings. You can only hope survive in a cruiser against an escort in PVP because he is able to inflict high critical damage through your shields and remain on you backside till you are destroyed with no threat from you. If you have half health and full shields, they can easily destroy you with a high crit volley inflicting 33K DPS or higher, no matter if you use RSP or Tac Team. I don't care how you look at it, that is not fair to non-escort pilots.
On the note about the Borg console/ MACO shield setup, I have called this to people's attention in many past threads but yet have been ignored. All successful PVP teams use it. I think its not fair to have players healing autonimously without him having to hit a power button. It has turned alot of these escorts into super tanks, pushing the imbalance further in their favor. I think its time for it to be nerfed like Aegis setup or inoperational without its' full 4 piece set.
Cruisers and sci vessels are worthless in elite STFs
- Myth, they can still bring enough to the party to get the optional with ease
There is a role, aside from DPS, that is worthwhile in elite STFs
- Myth, if your ship can't tank something by itself, or be bothered to pack a single cc/team ability its a bad build
Cruisers can out-tank escorts
- Myth, boff abilities may allow this on a case by case basis but due to defense stat, focus on resist/sustain tanking, and a few other things an escort actually has more raw tank. Simply put if [acc] is the best damage stat what do you think is the best tank stat?
Any element of this game is well balanced
- Myth, cannon vs beam, eng capt. vs others, majority of boff abilities in game, etc. Its just that the game is so incredibly easy that most players don't even realize the huge gap between optimal and acceptable. What was that video of CSE clear time, 4 minutes full clear I think....compared to your average PuG....
Thats my 2 cents.
guess what, you are not the victim of some escort captain colaboration...you are the victim of your own narrowmindedness towards your your favourite cruisers. And opening another thread about "how bad cruisers are", next week doesn't make it true, or will change that for you. Only when this game reached the point where cruisers and escorts and sci ships are indestinguishable from each other we may see a drop in new "buff cruiser" posts.
@alexincobra: but i think you are a crappy player, because you complain constantly about things that do not exist/happen the way you observe them...therefore making you complain invalid.
in the past, you complained about: tac team...which turned out you had no idea what it actually does.
cruisers ofcourse...multiple times. The famous "it doesn't make since post"
your nebula/galaxy-r shield controversy...a subjective observation, where you didn't even use a similar setup or an adequat testing environment.
then the firerate of turrets, where you completely ignored that those have a 360 degree arc.
most other stuff you brought to the "atention" of the community is purely cosmetic, that shows where your focus in this game is "looks" thats why you use cruisers in the first place.
And thats the whole issue people here have with cruisers. They want their favourite ship to be the best ship. Call me ignorant for pointing that out, but it is the truth.
@hereticknight085: yeah, i'm not your opinion, therefore close minded...what ever. This post aren't looking for help...i can't tell you how to buid a cruiser thats worth something if you think yours is already the pinacle of cruiser builds. Apparently not, since you would not ask for a cruiser buff, or a super beam to compensate for your low dps.
i use a oddy starcruiser with my eng captain, and it is a blast to play it in stfs and sometimes even pvp. i enjoy certain cruisers as they are right now. Some are just TRIBBLE, all galaxy variants for instance (they need slight boff adjustment, nothing more), but others are really fun to play with.
Another thing i fully agree with is a turnrate increase for cruisers. Atleast +1 to all cruisers (better +2) would make them even mor fun to play with, while not drastically change how they feel while playing.
Slight adjustments can make a great impact...no need for rethinking the whole ship classes.
I don't care that my Excelsior isn't THE BEST for damage, I don't care that it's not THE BEST ship in the game, and I'm the first to admit that its not.
What I want is for it to do competent damage, I can tank all I like in a 1 to 1, I am very hard for a solo player to bring down whatever they happen to be flying (though I can laugh at other cruisers trying it, I barely notice most of them). My point being that the day before season 6 went live I had the best ship FOR ME I could tank ANYTHING because I was putting out sufficient damage to keep my enemies on their toes and if I maxed out I could force them to take a defensive stance at which point there was no recovering for them (without skill/help) at that point the game was fun, I'd played with 5 builds on the ship and settled on one that worked for me. The day after season 6 went live (with absolutely NO changes to by build) my damage figures were half what they were the day before and the rate at which I was killing enemies probably 1/4 of what it was before season 6.
So baudl, please explain how I am a crappy player with no idea of how to build my ship or how to play the game etc, etc.
i don't know, i didn't experiance any drop in my cruiser. and the patchnotes of season 6 do not suggest any nerf or change. (although that doesn't mean much)
i use single cannons and turrets, and my dps is somewhere around 5.5k (thats counting all the weapons dps when in combat or orbiting earth)
i can't answere your question since i don't know what the cause for your drop in dps was...mine didn't change over night.
I don't want the GAMES perfect cruiser build, I wan MY perfect cruiser build (which I found) and I want it RETURNED to it's former usefulness.
As a casual player, is that really too much to ask?
do you have any statistical figures or some dmg logg prior to season 6? as i said before, others did not experiance that drop in dmg. to pinpoint your problem some more data would be great. maybe it can be fixed via some minor change.
maybe the 100% hitrate of fire at will did have that big of an impact...maybe.
Before season 6 I was able to take down a CSE BoP with 3-5 volleys now its 5-10 volleys
When maxed out I was touching the 2k - 2.5k per hit mark, now I can barely scrape 1800 per hit.
My power levels were (and still are):
100/80
90/70
50/25
40/25
When maxed out was running:
EPS power transfer, EPtW 1, nadion inversion, tac team 1 and (if there was only 1 target within range) FAW 1
Now I run the same with FAW 3 instead thus opening a slot for AP:B 1 just to help with the damage figures
anything below 700 is seriously gimped or bugged, because there is allways the chance of a major TRIBBLE up on cryptics side.
thats the dps value of each beam when in orbit without any buffs.
That's the thing you see, I'm well aware of what the stats are in the stores but I don't expect this to be sorted as Cryptic denies any and all TRIBBLE ups unless forced to come clean.
the scary thing is that I use a 2 beam broadside on my escorts (just so I can do damage when I have the exact same turn rate as my enemy) and I get 500 damage per hit per beam (phasers on the escort with 3 phaser consoles (keep the last for a subspace jumper))
You can't say cryptic screwed up, if the only thing you have to support this is subjective claims. You will need some hard evidence...parser loggs, "store" (which they aren't) values are perfectly fine to compare buffs, builds etc...
500 is perfectly normal, since your target will also have some considerable buffs running to minimize incoming dmg. and a beam on an escort is not better than the beam on a cruiser. it may be, because of higher powerlevels.
I?m afraid that in my attempt to be politically correct and polite to Cryptic in my earlier post I have been misunderstood. I agree with you 100% and then some.
I fly in all different kinds of ships with Eng, Tac & Sci VAs and below, but my favorite is, or was, Cruiser Engineer. There is clearly a problem with Eng/Cruiser playability right now that the devs need to address. What I meant to say is that when one has played in many different and enjoyable MMOs one recognizes that a fun and balanced game has been created when all the classes have been given an equal slice of the pie and can contribute meaningfully both in a group and solo environment. ATM cruisers and Scis clearly don?t to this as you and so many others in this forum have pointed out.
And one of the reasons they fail is that the time honored class distinctions of Damage Dealer, Tank and Crowd Control are only superficially present with one class being highly favored, bringing frustration to everyone else. As you and others have said, escorts can deal massive damage, tank to a large extent, and due to their overwhelming fire power, speed and maneuverability have little need to be concerned with crowd control. Cruisers, on the other hand, are only the semblance of a tank. In LOTRO, for example my tank can take on five mobs, hold their attention despite the action of others, and dispatch them in short order. And while a DD could more quickly deal with each mob if handled separately and consecutively, he would be easily overwhelmed trying to deal with 2 or more at a time. This is certainly not the situation we have in STO. Cruisers getting and holding the attention of more than one npc is difficult with only our FAW mass agro skill, while escorts using aoe attacks like CSV and TS not only immediately pull agro but outright pulverize them before cruisers can make more than a dent in a single npc.
If Cryptic wants cruisers to be a tank, then give them the skills and abilities to properly do so. We need more agro control and then a way to deal damage to the npcs. You?re right it?s not fun to fly around, slowly like a brick, trying to reach mobs while the escorts have already dispatched them and moved on to the next set of targets. Give escorts a reason to want to have cruiser around, just as we want them around for their dps. Give us a meaningful role and the ability to fulfill that role. We see the intent but the execution is sorely lacking. I laugh when I fly around in my escort because there is no comparison with the way it is more effective in all the missions compared with my cruiser, and I?d like to think I?m a pretty darn good cruiser captain.
they did actually when introducing the respawn timer...escorts die more often in stfs than cruisers thats a fact...but before the timer it was irrelevant because you could respawn immediately over and over and over.
With a good tank cruiser around, escorts can deliver dmg, without running away for a minute to repair or respawn. Which results in lowering the duration of the encounter drastically.
Though a team of escorts, that actually can crossheal do not need a cruiser for the current endgame content. But the difficulty is not balanced around that kind of grp of players, it is balanced around the avarage cruiser captain that dies when aggroing a tactical cube or a gate.
i'm not against more aggro control, but right now threat control is sufficent. (a taunt ability for cruisers would be nice though)
in PVP they have the support/healer role...nothing wrong with that either.
and balancing ships around single player missions is really ridiculous. Just switch ships and do the mission if you want to do it faster.
What is your build, cap. type, and are their additional factors modifying your DPS that you yourself are not bringing to the party? I would love to test one of these builds and be proven wrong.
Only cruisers I fly that can even come close to the firepower of my escorts are the ones packing DHCs and those merely come close. Now granted if your friendly escort has given up his CRF 3 to slap an APB 3 on everything you shoot at they did make a great choice, but nearly half of your DPS is not actually yours.
Show me your build please. I am not calling you a liar or anything I just want to see the difference that is allowing you to get those DPS and make sure it is not just a silly error like using FAW on borg that insta-heal the damage messing up the log.
I don't think i mentioned anything about balancing ships around single player missions, nor do I believe anyone else did...but I could be wrong.
Baudi, I think you are a crappy player as well as a crappy person. You spend most of your time bashing people on there own threads because you don't agree with them. All you are doing is trying to provoke people into leaving or making them angry enough to curse you. I can see that you are a sociopath, who can't get along with others, so from here out, anything you say on my threads will be ignored and disregarded. You are not the best player, or have the most knowledge, so you can just buzz off my thread. I didn't ask you for your opinion, because I don't recognize jerks who only think of themselves.
escorts, like the defiant armed with hard hitting cannons, a much more powerful weapon choice than beam arrays. so...what was the downside? cannons are free fire in the series...if your target managed to get out of the way you missed, and they weren't long range weapons because of that. greater the distance to target increases the likelihood of avoidance.
that's why it's a game mechanics problem...cannons shots in sto are guided, so their greatest actual weakness was nullified. beam arrays should have outpaced them in ranged combat, as the arrays have much higher arcs, faster response, and greater ability to keep the beam on the target then cannons do.
If cryptic hadn't gone with the simplistic targeting system they use, where to hit is calced instead of actually hitting your target with your shots cannon equipped ships wouldn't be so uber except in the hands of a very skilled captain. while cruisers able to lock on a target would output much more damage at range.
they didn't do that most likely because the degree of skill required to fly a cannon equipped ship would be much, much higher. and would require a reticule, and a target lead reticule.
how to fix? well they're not going to change the basic targeting and hit calc mechanics...but as a few suggested the powerdrain from beam arrays is ridiculous vs dps needs tweaked. or cruisers need tweaked with faster power recovery reflecting their larger power plants. prefer the latter, cruisers and any of the large ships should have better power capabilities by far than any escort sized ship.
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
I agree with the whole rest of your post and would rather they did that as well as give us cruisers something utop that. However this is the one bit I disagree with "cruisers need tweaked with faster power recovery reflecting their larger power plants. prefer the latter" I prefer the former (and perhaps a bit of the latter but not too much), when you look at the power output vs consumption on both ships the ratio is about the same (there will be a little dereference) but when you look at it the cruisers power system produces more and uses that (has more systems to power) whereas the escort produces less and uses less (with less systems) but the ratio of production : usage remains about the same (with the escort perhaps being a little more efficient with less distance in power conduits etc).
however one would imagine that with the extra distance in power conduits etc that cruisers have their drain resist would be higher/power drain from all systems lower and I would very much like to see that reflected in a star trek game. this on top of the straight line firing of cannons and turrets. Before anyone has a go about that comment one of my characters would also be affected but I would like the added realism of it and that if I miss then it's not because of my targeting systems, it's due to my piloting.
Take away FAW and it drops down to 2,800. Stupidly large drop imo considering the low numbers to begin with(600DPS).
So I run a 2,800 DPS build.
An Escort with equivalent gear and specing (cannons instead of arrays etc) with its abilities activated peaks at roughly 6,900 DPS.
Remove those abilities and it drops to 3,700 DPS.
6,900-3,400=3,500
3,700-2,800=900
So between similarly equipped, roughly, we see a difference of 900-3,500 DPS.
And seeing as you can rotate abilities to increase overall sustained DPS for PvE or smash them all for PvP... that adds up.
Those aren't small numbers. Even at the closest point between the two its almost a full 33% more potent than the Cruiser's and at its highest its a almost a 50% increase over the Cruisers output.
This is assuming that its an Engineer in the Cruiser and a Tactical in the Escort.
Put the Tactical in the Cruiser and it peaks around 4,500 due to increased number of buffs provided from the Captain. And 2,950 without. That's a change of 1,540, yeesh.
6,900-4,500=2,400
3,700-2,950=750
A difference of 750-2,400
Tac Captain vs the Engineering Captain in the same Cruiser is:
4,500 peak for Tac
3,400 peak for Eng
2,950 low for Tac
2,800 low for Eng.
Escorts are stupid OP :eek::rolleyes::D
And Cruisers have some issues.
1) Give beam arrays a single innate [acc] mod, like how DHC has crit mod.
2) Add 'rear beam arrays' to the game. Same exact stats as current beam arrays but only 8 or 9 energy drain. Perhaps lower arc to 160 from 180 if needed.
A much better, more detailed, and elegant solution though in my mind would be what I previously proposed in a feedback post.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=398901
The TLDR would be beams would perform better against high defense targets and cannons would perform better against high resist targets along with some weapons gaining a proc chance bonus.
yeah, first i want to thank you for calling me a sociopath, because i do not agree with your arguments.
second i want to adress your incapability to actually play the class you chose to play.
and third i just think you are a poor minded person...but that goes without saying. what ever you say after that, i ignore, because it makes no "since" to quote your own words.
you fail to understand basic game mechanics...thats a shame, but to actualy claim them to be bugs is embarasing, even for a 5 year old...which seems you are. If you would spend half the time you spend into writeing post on the forum into actually learn the game mechanics you could see beyond your ignorance, but you won't. so therefore bye bye, live long and suck it.
edit* fixed the wrong quote
may want to change your choice of quote, the one you have used is irrelevant your argument
Just thought I'd point that out before you get an unnecessary reply
you quoted me..and i said nothing of the sort. :rolleyes:
but, i fixed a few things for you (sp) and you were dead wrong in your original post anyway. it is game mechanics, poor game mechanics that make cruisers weak compared to an escort even if the same captain has flown both without changing their skills.
trying to say it's the players problem is ludicrous...it's how the game works. escorts, or rather dc/dhc equipped ships = more raw damage output vs cruisers captained with identical skills. i know...i've done it. dhc's change everything. their lower rof means they put more damage to the target when the do fire unlike beam arrays with a higher rof that broadside eat power like candy...consequently causing a rapid falloff in damage as they cycle since there's less recovery time.
sure...you can pump out EPtW and munch batteries, go with a specific build in an attempt to keep power high at all times...but there are still cd's. and under faw *nom nom nom*
there are several flaws in the current mechanics, the guided cannon shots just one of them. identical engagement ranges for all weapons another, identical power characteristics across all ships, lack of vertical...i could go on ._.
ah yes, and for someone with 'go pro or go home' perhaps you should heed your own sig, not very pro to quote the wrong person, misspell horribly while calling them a child, and not even understand fully what you claim to know.
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
....I love you man.
Not many people on here seem to understand the problems with current weapon design in this game. I'm not an expert on the intricacies of power cycling and weapon drain but I can tell beam weapons seem harder on my power levels than an equal number of DHC's and turrets. Recently I've been of the opinion they should reduce the power drain of beam weapons by 1 point to make broadsides more viable for cruisers and sci ships. Some people really disagree with this as is their right.
Fun facts that don't exactly pertain to this discussion.
According to the starship weapons calculator 4x DBB at 125 weapons power does about 6 percent less damage than 8xbeam array at 125 weapon power.
At 100 power those 4 DBB's do about 10% more Damage than 8 beam arrays.
Any damage advantage of having 8 beam arrays versus 4 DBB is just about canceled out by the lower base damage of beam arrays and the increased energy drain of doubling your weapons on target.
Seems kind of wild, huh?
and comparing 4 DBB against 8 BA...is seriously flawed. i mean you see 8 beams leaving your ship but thats as much as this 2 builds would have in common. Those 2 weapons can't be compared without bringing the fireing arcs into account. Yeah, they both have an angle of 90 degrees, but the 8 beam has this on 2 sides + the rest of it front or back. Against the 90 degrees front of the DBB.
8 beams are meant to drain your weapon energy radically, thats why, you as a player is invited to either leave this setup in favour of some other weapons that do not drain energy constantly or add some powers to work against it. A tactical or science captain will probably not be able to make such a setup work as much as an engineer can.
this sentiment of players..."it doesn't work the way i would like it to work, therefore it must be a mechanical or a gameplay issue or a bug or cheaters" is basically wrong. there is hardly as much broken in this game as some may believe.
My friend alexindcobra is a specialist in bringing up such bogus gameplay bugs on a regular basis. In fact...this thread is just one of them, that drew a lot of attention of likeminded people. It seems to me that 70% of the players fly around in cruisers and sci vessels these days...90% of those have no idea how to build a good cruiser/sci vessel. It is only logical that this mass of people believe cruisers and beams need a buff, because they can't make it work the way they want it to.
PS: sorry for the wrong quote.
@veraticus. even my turrets (mk xii borg) on my cruiser that runs 116 weapon power are at 550 dps unbuffed with only 2 mark XI blue consoles. a beam array on a half decently build cruiser should be atleast above 700dps. Therefore 6 beams should be able to generate atleast 4200dps broadsideing.i guess you use MK XI or X gear for that numbers. Anyway...how many beams are you actually using in that calculation? 5 or 6...if 600 dps is one beam that would make 3600 dps with 6 amd 3000 dps with 5...but never 2800.
those numbers do not seem to be an adequat representation of what actually is on a cruiser or escort.
MKXII 3 DHC+3 turrets all borg reach 5700 dps on my fleet patrol with 124 weapon power. no buffs but 18% bonus accuracy, 3.4% crit chance 56% crit severity.
on the same ship a beam array MKXII borg has about 858dps with the same weapon power (some cruiser can actually reach that without buffs)
lowering that weapon power to 114 (which is a normal value for cruisers that max weapon power) the beam still was at 789 dps. this would mean a cruiser can broadside 6 beams at 4740dps...no buffs. thats nearly 2000 more than would you had and only 1000 less than the escort with 10 more weapon power. guess what, the escort with 114 weapon power only had around 5200dps thats only 400 more than the cruiser.
so, i think your numbers are completely manufactured and do not represent the reality in any way.
although i have to admit that was all with 4 mk xi consoles, but there are cruisers that also have 4 tac consoles.
i took 2 out anyway and was still at 694dps with only 114 weapon power. with 3 it was 741 dps. all numbers still well above yours.
I know full well you will count me in this 90% not because I don't know how to build a cruiser (heck I've flicked through the PvP guides, just none of their builds fitted me) and as I have previously stated I had a working build but with the introduction of season 6 my damage was halved and my hull buffed but then they took the hull buff away leaving me nothing to nothing to show for my lack of damage