Too Many Siphons

alexindcobra · September 2012

Is it really necessary to allow players to have 7 Advanced Energy Siphon drones? Whats with the power draining as a fighting techneque because I don't know an active defense against it? When you have players that can just sit back and drain other players without having to fight whlie NPC's do all the work, destroys the balance in the game. These siphon drones are too tough to be destroy in tractor repulsor beam unless I use aux batteries but when i run out, then what? While you are busy trying to destroying the siphons which are tough like advanced runabouts, the player is destroying you. What ever happened to Player versus Player and the test of skill? PVP in STO has become Player with the deepest pocket wins, Player versus environment controlled by player, Player versus cheat codes. When people are allowed to be indestructable then the game is no longer competition.

Energy sighons are a bad idea and don't show skill at all, just laziness.

trueprom3theus · September 2012

alexindcobra wrote: »

Is it really necessary to allow players to have 7 Advanced Energy Siphon drones? Whats with the power draining as a fighting techneque because I don't know an active defense against it? When you have players that can just sit back and drain other players without having to fight whlie NPC's do all the work, destroys the balance in the game. These siphon drones are too tough to be destroy in tractor repulsor beam unless I use aux batteries but when i run out, then what? While you are busy trying to destroying the siphons which are tough like advanced runabouts, the player is destroying you. What ever happened to Player versus Player and the test of skill? PVP in STO has become Player with the deepest pocket wins, Player versus environment controlled by player, Player versus cheat codes. When people are allowed to be indestructable then the game is no longer competition.

Engery sighons are a bad idea and don't show skill at all, just laziness.

Wait, it gets better with doffs, new spam every 10 sec. I can tell you that only a chained faw tac cruiser can keep the spam away, and maybe kill the carrier if the pilot doesn't suck. And best tac cruisers are also kdf... If you do fight a recluse with siphons, then just forget about killing the recluse... I know the insulator didn't resist them, I've heard they got fixed recently though, but I haven't confirmed it, so it's just a rumor so far for me. And yea, that's totally cheese. I can tell you that in attack mode, pets attack mines and torps first, so you may try puting some mines and see if that would buy you some time, since siphons can't kill mines as far as I know. The only use I see for siphons is in elite stf, when you don't want to waste time doing it properly. I have them, but don't use them in pvp for the above reasons.

drkfrontiers · September 2012

trueprom3theus wrote: »

Wait, it gets better with doffs, new spam every 10 sec. I can tell you that only a chained faw tac cruiser can keep the spam away, and maybe kill the carrier if the pilot doesn't suck. And best tac cruisers are also kdf... If you do fight a recluse with siphons, then just forget about killing the recluse... I know the insulator didn't resist them, I've heard they got fixed recently though, but I haven't confirmed it, so it's just a rumor so far for me. And yea, that's totally cheese. I can tell you that in attack mode, pets attack mines and torps first, so you may try puting some mines and see if that would buy you some time, since siphons can't kill mines as far as I know. The only use I see for siphons is in elite stf, when you don't want to waste time doing it properly. I have them, but don't use them in pvp for the above reasons.

Yip have to say I used to use them; now not so much. The only time I strap them on is when I run into AMS + Danubes. My mantra then becomes "two can play 'tis game, two can play 'tis game wooo-hahaha-ha"

trueprom3theus · September 2012

drkfrontiers wrote: »

Yip have to say I used to use them; now not so much. The only time I strap them on is when I run into AMS + Danubes. My mantra then becomes "two can play 'tis game, two can play 'tis game wooo-hahaha-ha"

Yea, carrier vs carrier, sit back and enjoy the flight... Caugh... the npcs killing each other, lol.

travelingmaster · September 2012

Yeah, I haven't really seen siphons in action that much, but they're basically cheese. They're a cheap, dirty trick that most self-respecting PvPers don't use. Really, what's the fun in using such an OP setup? It's on par with flying an indestructible JHAS that can still shred right through Tactical Team.

thishorizon · September 2012

it all come down to....well....

what i always say, is if you really wouldn't want to face your build because of its questionable layout.....then don't make others face it. (i hold myself to this standard. no p2w bs...pure maxing my build through console choices....i guess you could say one of my toons flying the bug is questionable to some people, but since i don't mind fighting them.....i fly one on one toon)

and i'm sure everyone here can agree, we like to be able to move, and we like power to our systems.

so, if your build takes advantage of loopholes in the game that allow you to totally deprive the opposing player of these basic fundamental necessities in the game, then, well....

you are just a jerk. but thats cool, i'm kind of a drunk TRIBBLE-hole.

but honestly people, they go on carriers. its not like they can kill you without the toys, just stay 5 clicks away from them. let them suck nothing from thin air.

and to quote one of my favorite all time people, Duane The Rock The Tooth Fairy Johnson,

"if ya smell what the rock is cookin" then

have fun kill bad guys

borticuscryptic · September 2012

We've been looking into the complaints about Siphon Drones and trying to figure out a balanced way of decreasing their effectiveness without diminishing to the point of making them feel like a wasted hangar slot.

Honestly, it's not easy to find that balancing point.

We've considered reducing their hitpoints, which would make them more susceptible to AOE damage countermeasures. This, in essence, makes it easier to counter them, but only if you have the proper powers equipped, and are not currently on cooldown. However, it presents the very negative experience to the owner of having their drones quickly dispatched without them having the chance to do their thing.

We've also tried having their drain-per-tick be based off of a percentage of the target's current power, but that actually managed to make them more effective, rather than less. Any subsystem running at low power was barely effected, while high-power systems took a major pounding. We didn't feel that was intuitive. Also, it still took systems offline almost as quickly since the minimum it could drain per tick was still 1 energy (magnitude rounding) and the initial uptick of drain was faster.

I guess that's a long-winded way of saying, we're trying to find a solution to a mechanic that's not quite behaving the way we'd like it to in PvP, and haven't yet come across one that we like. But we'll keep looking.

defalus · September 2012

I don't PVP much so maybe others can disect what I say here and propose something better... or just shoot me down.:D

Why not remove the Siphons and replace them with a new frigate that uses something like the Energy dissipator used by the Breen - "The weapon works by draining the energy of targeted ships, disabling their engines, weapons, and shields, thus making them easy targets for conventional weapons."

A couple of frigates with good hp and shields that can periodicly launch these stong pulses would be better than a constant drain no? And if story canon etc is an issue then something along the lines of the KDF saw how effective these weapons were and adapted them for use on KDF carriers.

alexindcobra · September 2012

Hear is a fix, get rid of them. They don't serve a purpose in PVP and any selfrespecting player don't use them. When you have allowed the owners to deploy 7 at a time and the owner nolonger has to work for his victory then that defeats the purpose of PVP. It's like a drug, its doesn't help you fight better, just make you addicted to it. If you get rid of them, just give the owners something else, or some credits. You can't balance a cheat, you can only cut it out from the game.

deadspacex64 · September 2012

borticuscryptic, how about they can only drain x amount before they have to dissipate that gained energy? they would still be initially deadly...but there would be a brief recovery time for the target before a new launch or the drones could begin siphoning again.

and there are counters, they're just not real useful in other PvP engagements. mines for one...new anti-fighter mines with a faster cd than standard anti-ship mines could be an addition. the downside it takes a weapons slot and not as effective vs other ships.

tractor-repulsors could have an added bonus vs small ships, some other sci abilities work pretty well as long as you're not drained before hand. increasing launch cd or having a min cd that doff's can't force it below would also help with the spammage.

i think i realize the issue with finding a way to make them less uber in PvP is that it also makes them less effective in PvE...difficult balancing act to say the least.

dontdrunkimshoot · September 2012

borticuscryptic wrote: »

We've been looking into the complaints about Siphon Drones and trying to figure out a balanced way of decreasing their effectiveness without diminishing to the point of making them feel like a wasted hangar slot.

Honestly, it's not easy to find that balancing point.

We've considered reducing their hitpoints, which would make them more susceptible to AOE damage countermeasures. This, in essence, makes it easier to counter them, but only if you have the proper powers equipped, and are not currently on cooldown. However, it presents the very negative experience to the owner of having their drones quickly dispatched without them having the chance to do their thing.

We've also tried having their drain-per-tick be based off of a percentage of the target's current power, but that actually managed to make them more effective, rather than less. Any subsystem running at low power was barely effected, while high-power systems took a major pounding. We didn't feel that was intuitive. Also, it still took systems offline almost as quickly since the minimum it could drain per tick was still 1 energy (magnitude rounding) and the initial uptick of drain was faster.

I guess that's a long-winded way of saying, we're trying to find a solution to a mechanic that's not quite behaving the way we'd like it to in PvP, and haven't yet come across one that we like. But we'll keep looking.

the problem with drones is that their drain is open ended and unlimited, they don't drain a certain amount and then stop, its more and more every tic. this never ending drain till they are killed seems to bypass insulators entirely, as shown in a vid made by mav.

have the things explode after 15 seconds of draining, like a blood sucker that sucks to much. being able to permanently shut someone down once snared is a big problem

depending on your level in insulators, there should be a cap to how much any number of siphon pods should be able to drain you. with 0 insulator skill they should be able to take 125 power, with 99 max drain should be 50 power. from there add in diminishing returns, so even at a theoretical max of ~250 skill it could still drain 20 power.

the pods drain once a second right? maybe have them drain every 3 seconds, so if only 1 or 2 get to you it isn't game over and you can deal with them. it wont make much of a difference ether way when a squad of 8 has you.

trueprom3theus · September 2012

I understand bort when he said its not easy, those suckers are also dependent on flow capacitors too, so as many flow points you have, the bigger the drain is. On the other hand, the principle is cool to be honest, it just doesn't work properly. also, they might be resisted by insulators, but the drain could be so big that it really doesn't matter how many insulators you have, lol.

I remember talking about having et or batteries giving you a temporary power boost, so you can at least escape them, I really don't know if that would be enough though. Another idea would be to make he clean them for the duration of he, it sounds silly, I know, but same he clears power siphon (sci ability). I am definitely against nerfing them to the point of being useless, but I think siphons have the problem of being dependent of too many variables and maybe it's just easier if cryptic implements the he/et/batt idea.

matteo716maikai · September 2012

borticuscryptic wrote: »

We've been looking into the complaints about Siphon Drones and trying to figure out a balanced way of decreasing their effectiveness without diminishing to the point of making them feel like a wasted hangar slot.

Honestly, it's not easy to find that balancing point.

We've considered reducing their hitpoints, which would make them more susceptible to AOE damage countermeasures. This, in essence, makes it easier to counter them, but only if you have the proper powers equipped, and are not currently on cooldown. However, it presents the very negative experience to the owner of having their drones quickly dispatched without them having the chance to do their thing.

We've also tried having their drain-per-tick be based off of a percentage of the target's current power, but that actually managed to make them more effective, rather than less. Any subsystem running at low power was barely effected, while high-power systems took a major pounding. We didn't feel that was intuitive. Also, it still took systems offline almost as quickly since the minimum it could drain per tick was still 1 energy (magnitude rounding) and the initial uptick of drain was faster.

I guess that's a long-winded way of saying, we're trying to find a solution to a mechanic that's not quite behaving the way we'd like it to in PvP, and haven't yet come across one that we like. But we'll keep looking.

im gonna have to call bs on this.

theyre the only drain in the game that has unlimited drain. theyre one of the few drains that isnt countered fully by insulators or even a fraction of whats countered for things like target subsystems.

yeah... bs.

give them a limit to their drain. say max group drain of up to 50 total. theyd still be useful, and so long as theyre "draining" that 50 power wont regen. the more siphons the faster that 50 is drained.

power insulators would increase the amount of time it takes to drain up to the 50.

they also do need their health adjusted, but nowhere near as badly as the majority of the fed pets (only the fighters seem to be in order). i mena come on! a 18k health runabout with tractor beams? good god....

smazazel · September 2012

I got an idea get rid of pvp and stop nerfing things because pvp minority whines about balance. I want my stuff to work in pve. just get rid of pvp or nerf only pvp leave my pve alone.

dontdrunkimshoot · September 2012

another problem with drains from the pods is that a high degree of specing into Starship Electro-Plasma Systems makes them drain from you faster. the higher your power transfer rate is the faster you regain energy, AND have it drained from you. insulators should help slow down this drain too.

thishorizon · September 2012

smazazel wrote: »

I got an idea get rid of pvp and stop nerfing things because pvp minority whines about balance. I want my stuff to work in pve. just get rid of pvp or nerf only pvp leave my pve alone.

your spacebar works in PVE.

there you go, fixed that for you.

travelingmaster · September 2012

smazazel wrote: »

I got an idea get rid of pvp and stop nerfing things because pvp minority whines about balance. I want my stuff to work in pve. just get rid of pvp or nerf only pvp leave my pve alone.

Don't know what you're whining about. PVE is pretty effing easy to do. For the majority of it, you don't even need a good build. Right now, the only thing you need a halfway-decent build for are STFs, fleet alerts, and no-win.

alexindcobra · September 2012

deadspacex64 wrote: »

borticuscryptic, how about they can only drain x amount before they have to dissipate that gained energy? they would still be initially deadly...but there would be a brief recovery time for the target before a new launch or the drones could begin siphoning again.

and there are counters, they're just not real useful in other PvP engagements. mines for one...new anti-fighter mines with a faster cd than standard anti-ship mines could be an addition. the downside it takes a weapons slot and not as effective vs other ships.

tractor-repulsors could have an added bonus vs small ships, some other sci abilities work pretty well as long as you're not drained before hand. increasing launch cd or having a min cd that doff's can't force it below would also help with the spammage.

i think i realize the issue with finding a way to make them less uber in PvP is that it also makes them less effective in PvE...difficult balancing act to say the least.

Other MMO games have separate gear for PVP and PVE. How about this, why not make it like PVE gear only and not affective for PVP?

alexindcobra · September 2012

dontdrunkimshoot wrote: »

the problem with drones is that their drain is open ended and unlimited, they don't drain a certain amount and then stop, its more and more every tic. this never ending drain till they are killed seems to bypass insulators entirely, as shown in a vid made by mav.

have the things explode after 15 seconds of draining, like a blood sucker that sucks to much. being able to permanently shut someone down once snared is a big problem

depending on your level in insulators, there should be a cap to how much any number of siphon pods should be able to drain you. with 0 insulator skill they should be able to take 125 power, with 99 max drain should be 50 power. from there add in diminishing returns, so even at a theoretical max of ~250 skill it could still drain 20 power.

the pods drain once a second right? maybe have them drain every 3 seconds, so if only 1 or 2 get to you it isn't game over and you can deal with them. it wont make much of a difference ether way when a squad of 8 has you.

That wouldn't make much of a difference if siphon player holds you in a powerful tractor beam, as most leach players do.

alexindcobra · September 2012

matteo716maikai wrote: »

im gonna have to call bs on this.

theyre the only drain in the game that has unlimited drain. theyre one of the few drains that isnt countered fully by insulators or even a fraction of whats countered for things like target subsystems.

yeah... bs.

give them a limit to their drain. say max group drain of up to 50 total. theyd still be useful, and so long as theyre "draining" that 50 power wont regen. the more siphons the faster that 50 is drained.

power insulators would increase the amount of time it takes to drain up to the 50.

they also do need their health adjusted, but nowhere near as badly as the majority of the fed pets (only the fighters seem to be in order). i mena come on! a 18k health runabout with tractor beams? good god....

Not just the Fed pet need health adjustment, its the KDF frigates as well. They are as tough as players and they are too fast to hit with torpedos. The difference between Advanced fighters and regular should be a very small HP raise and the better weaponry. That also should go for a the advanced frigates.

trueprom3theus · September 2012

smazazel wrote: »

I got an idea get rid of pvp and stop nerfing things because pvp minority whines about balance. I want my stuff to work in pve. just get rid of pvp or nerf only pvp leave my pve alone.

Even better, just touch random keys )or roll your head on the keyboard if you're getting bored) and bang, you're done. Anyways, mr pve hero, npcs don't resist drains as far as I know (and to damn bad, since some abilities activated by npcs would be awesome, it would make pveers think more about how they build their ships so they won't die in 10 secs in pvp), and the siphon fix won't affect pve at all if done right. All we want is to be fixed So it's properly resisted.

trueprom3theus · September 2012

alexindcobra wrote: »

Other MMO games have separate gear for PVP and PVE. How about this, why not make it like PVE gear only and not affective for PVP?

A while ago devs stated they don't want to go separate ways due to maintenability issues.

reaper66688 · September 2012

fix the danubes first then the siphon drones. i agree the siphon drones are op but so are the danubes. u get tb'ed by 5-6 danubes and not even omega can keep u moving fast enough to have a decent defense rating. its not much of a problem against the atrox but against an armitage its a big problem. make the danubes atrox only. and yes cap the drain on siphon drones.

corsair114 · September 2012

Why not just make 'em like time bombs along the lines of dontdrunkimshoots suggestions. After they siphon off so much energy they explode dealing damage in a small AoE, with the damage based on the amount of energy drained or the amount of time spent drawing power if that'd be easier to track? This allows them to keep their debuffing ability while removing the "HA! I win 'cuz you can do nothing lols" situation, and gives them some small amount of crowd control and, well, a nice bit of oompf if the enemy team isn't taking time to police spam and keep their teammates from getting drained and popped.

[EDIT]

That's a bit like the Limpet drones from Homeworld: Cataclysm, come to think of it.

/suggestion

kalvorax · September 2012

trueprom3theus wrote: »

Even better, just touch random keys )or roll your head on the keyboard if you're getting bored) and bang, you're done. Anyways, mr pve hero, npcs don't resist drains as far as I know (and to damn bad, since some abilities activated by npcs would be awesome, it would make pveers think more about how they build their ships so they won't die in 10 secs in pvp), and the siphon fix won't affect pve at all if done right. All we want is to be fixed So it's properly resisted.

Now THIS is a good idea

esuzi · September 2012

I don't actually know if there's something wrong with Siphons themselves, or other elements. So this brings me to some questions.

1: Should siphons even benefit from flow caps? (I have no idea if other hangars benefit from various skills)

2: Are Power Insulators correctly fighting off the drain?

3: Does (or should) pumping power way past 125 fight off power drain?

4: Should there be a cap in place, similar to things like Plasmonic Leech?

5: Will any changes make a difference in PvE due to how NPCs are set up?

p2wsucks · September 2012

corsair114 wrote: »

Why not just make 'em like time bombs along the lines of dontdrunkimshoots suggestions. After they siphon off so much energy they explode dealing damage in a small AoE, with the damage based on the amount of energy drained or the amount of time spent drawing power if that'd be easier to track? This allows them to keep their debuffing ability while removing the "HA! I win 'cuz you can do nothing lols" situation, and gives them some small amount of crowd control and, well, a nice bit of oompf if the enemy team isn't taking time to police spam and keep their teammates from getting drained and popped.

[EDIT]

That's a bit like the Limpet drones from Homeworld: Cataclysm, come to think of it.

/suggestion

The main problem would be the Flight Deck Doffs which reduce the deployment cooldown rate allows pets to be spammed circumventing what you're trying to accomplish.

Perhaps an immunity to siphon drone drains for 10 seconds after being under the effect for 15 seconds w/1-3 drain/sec per drone based on resistance and flow caps, w/a max of 3 drone effects per target? This would end up w/45-135 drain depending on resists/flow cap at peak drain time of 15 seconds. The immunity would only be from pet siphon drains, but would apply to respawned pets or pets from another player.

crusty8mac · September 2012

alexindcobra wrote: »

Is it really necessary to allow players to have 7 Advanced Energy Siphon drones? Whats with the power draining as a fighting techneque because I don't know an active defense against it? When you have players that can just sit back and drain other players without having to fight whlie NPC's do all the work, destroys the balance in the game. These siphon drones are too tough to be destroy in tractor repulsor beam unless I use aux batteries but when i run out, then what? While you are busy trying to destroying the siphons which are tough like advanced runabouts, the player is destroying you. What ever happened to Player versus Player and the test of skill? PVP in STO has become Player with the deepest pocket wins, Player versus environment controlled by player, Player versus cheat codes. When people are allowed to be indestructable then the game is no longer competition.

Energy sighons are a bad idea and don't show skill at all, just laziness.

I don't know. But if siphons are nerfed, Danube tractors need the same bat.

criminius · September 2012

So, to sum it up does siphon drones suck or blow?
Serious note why not just remove drones or fix skill tree resist. Make a new console that resists it? Reduce cd to 1 min for that auto turret.

zeuxidemus001 · September 2012

borticuscryptic wrote: »

We've been looking into the complaints about Siphon Drones and trying to figure out a balanced way of decreasing their effectiveness without diminishing to the point of making them feel like a wasted hangar slot.

Honestly, it's not easy to find that balancing point.

We've considered reducing their hitpoints, which would make them more susceptible to AOE damage countermeasures. This, in essence, makes it easier to counter them, but only if you have the proper powers equipped, and are not currently on cooldown. However, it presents the very negative experience to the owner of having their drones quickly dispatched without them having the chance to do their thing.

We've also tried having their drain-per-tick be based off of a percentage of the target's current power, but that actually managed to make them more effective, rather than less. Any subsystem running at low power was barely effected, while high-power systems took a major pounding. We didn't feel that was intuitive. Also, it still took systems offline almost as quickly since the minimum it could drain per tick was still 1 energy (magnitude rounding) and the initial uptick of drain was faster.

I guess that's a long-winded way of saying, we're trying to find a solution to a mechanic that's not quite behaving the way we'd like it to in PvP, and haven't yet come across one that we like. But we'll keep looking.

Got a few things about that I'd like to express. The first one is how they are taking systems offline due to the fact the changes you made earlier in the year that prevented them from doing such where the maximum you could do was take all subsystem power to 2. Taking it to 2 from my experience took almost every single drain in the game all piled up into one build unless you have changed something recently that I am unaware of.

The solution, possible solution, or ideas on how to make it better are first to look at what they are and in game/soft-canon of what they are. First they are classified as nausicaan technology but no nausicaan ship in this game has a hangar. The second things Power Siphon leads one to believe that it is Siphoning the power and one would think it would be taking power from a target to convert to the owner. I have a few toons that use the advanced siphon pods so what I would recommend is first at the least give that fleet nausicaan ship a hangar and make it a flight deck/makes it our version of the armitage for the KDF all in one swoop(on fed side mission content these same ships as fleet one launch them anyways so why not). Then from the point of them siphoning power and giving to the owner give them some kind of reasonable % chance that it can actually knock a random subsystem offline like phasers do.

I think these are good trade offs/balance for give and take on what they should be doing. It settles their function and those who don't carry the counters to them (which there are counters but some may not choose to use them due to they are one of many powers that an enemy may or not be using) can counter them a little bit more easily but they would still have their desired effect.

alexindcobra · September 2012

reaper66688 wrote: »

fix the danubes first then the siphon drones. i agree the siphon drones are op but so are the danubes. u get tb'ed by 5-6 danubes and not even omega can keep u moving fast enough to have a decent defense rating. its not much of a problem against the atrox but against an armitage its a big problem. make the danubes atrox only. and yes cap the drain on siphon drones.

I think its BS that the escort player "have their cake and eating it too," with the escort carriers. They are already the heaviest DPS ships in the game, outrunning you and shield tanking enough that you can't harm them, but now they don't have to chase you to keep you from healing. They just sic their runabouts on you to hold you down while they smash you to pieces.

Too Many Siphons

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