the bops were created and balanced on a now outdated philosophy, were a ship that allegedly has advantages should have disadvantages. all the newer ships and all the fleet ships are of the advantages stacked upon advantages philosophy, wile strangely enough only the bops have to adhere to the old philosophy
not to mention the most deadly station combinations for the bop have been nerfed to the ground, recreated on a fed escort, or simply made nonviable by the new skill tree.
the advantage of all those universal stations is a bit of an illution really, and we all know battle cloaking in weapons range is begging for death, the bop really has nothing going for it, its like an escort with 1 arm tied behind its back
all bops should get a universal ENS, except the 2x LTC bop, a shield mod no lower then .8, hitpoints between 24k and 28k, and the fleet ships should get a console setups that favor tactical and science
I still feel sorta bad for the folks that can't seem to use Battle Cloak.
Now's a good time to point out that its really good against the "short bus passengers" that don't use torpedoes. Find one of those guys and use it in front of them! Maybe that will brighten your day a bit.
But sign me up for the "Fleet BOP is a JOKE" thread cause I'm HERE for the duration.
EDIT: Clarified the type of player that eschews torpedoes over cannons.
I still feel sorta bad for the folks that can't seem to use Battle Cloak.
Now's a good time to point out that its really good against the "short bus passengers" that don't use torpedoes. Find one of those guys and use it in front of them! Maybe that will brighten your day a bit.
But sign me up for the "Fleet BOP is a JOKE" thread cause I'm HERE for the duration.
EDIT: Clarified the type of player that eschews torpedoes over cannons.
As I mentioned, just as there's proper ways to battle cloak, there are counters that make even that a dicey proposition at best. Ironicly, my Sci Garumba was good at chasing down a cloaking BoP. And not just "hit the upside down V and hope" sorts of folks either.
A fith forward weapon slot is a nice idea. Visually, a BoP's forward weapons are very strongly represented, and very big.
It would certainly be nice if they told us what they were thinking when they designed this thing.
Seriously, I'd like to know.
Was it a shot in the dark?
Did they have something specific in mind, particular builds?
Did they even test this before it went live?
I love the Norgh.
I feel it's the only Cryptic-designed BoP that properly captures the sense it's a new generation of larger, more powerful BoPs for a new era.
It's a bit round, with a unique shape to its wings.
The subtle additional disruptors say "this ship means business" without making the vessel look overblown like some of the other models.
I can easily imagine this ship in the shows, fitting right in without a problem.
Ever since the B'rel retrofit came out, I wondered why there was no way to fly this ship.
Now it's there and I'm unwilling to spend even a cent on it thanks to these...these weird stats.:(
I'll quit when they turn off the servers, otherwise its " Praise Kahless and pass the ammo."
Qapla'! I will fight in my BoP to the end, to death and glory! I don't care how much they leave the BoP behind, stat-wise. I'm sticking with it, and will continue to demand fair treatment of the KDF in general.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
So how does it compare? What can the Norgh do better than the defiant?
The Norgh has the same hull as the To'duj fighter, combined with the lowest shield ever seen on a BoP/Escort. It's pretty obvious this ship has to strike fast and hard, as it is not likely to survive any kind of counterattack.
So how it the Norghs ability to strike hard and fast? It has 2 tac consoles less than the new escorts, and one weapon less. This is a pretty severe disadvantage! Can the extra LtC slot make up for this? I think not.
Battle cloak is a tremendous advantage. If you understand the game mechanics you'd know cloak provides a damage bonus equivalent to a tac console using a purple mk11 to all damage type ( key word: ALL)
It has two Lt Cmdr slots AND a cmdr UNIVERSAL slots. The sheer firepower that this ship can have just from that alone is mind boggling.
Hull is weak.. yes. Shields are weak... who cares? A BoP is a cloak ambush ship not an attack ship like the defiant.
The 1 weapon less is in the rear. Therefore insignificant.
Learn the mechanics of the game and you will see just how powerful this ship can be.
I don't know about you guys but I use battle cloak ALL the time in PvP and I'm usually one of the top kill to death ratios. As a matter of fact I rarely die because of the BC. Wait until you've exausted all shield buffs ect.. then hit evasive manuevers... then hit any kinetic resistence buff and battle cloak... It's a surefire escape from a sticky situation and HIGHLY effective. You simply need the right sequence. As soon as my shields go down I escape and repair my ship only to re-enter battle when the odds are in my favor.
Battle cloak is a tremendous advantage. If you understand the game mechanics you'd know cloak provides a damage bonus equivalent to a tac console using a purple mk11 to all damage type ( key word: ALL)
It has two Lt Cmdr slots AND a cmdr UNIVERSAL slots. The sheer firepower that this ship can have just from that alone is mind boggling.
Hull is weak.. yes. Shields are weak... who cares? A BoP is a cloak ambush ship not an attack ship like the defiant.
The 1 weapon less is in the rear. Therefore insignificant.
Learn the mechanics of the game and you will see just how powerful this ship can be.
you didn't mention anything a normal cloak doesn't also do
I don't know about you guys but I use battle cloak ALL the time in PvP and I'm usually one of the top kill to death ratios. As a matter of fact I rarely die because of the BC. Wait until you've exausted all shield buffs ect.. then hit evasive manuevers... then hit any kinetic resistence buff and battle cloak... It's a surefire escape from a sticky situation and HIGHLY effective. You simply need the right sequence. As soon as my shields go down I escape and repair my ship only to re-enter battle when the odds are in my favor.
you just described your standard evasive maneuver escape. if you do it right, nothing should be able to catch up to a bop. battle cloak only allows you to cloak wile red alert is active, but if your already out of weapons range and they cant catch you, it doesn't mater how soon you cloak.
battle cloak continues to be completely overrated. theres no reason every cloak shouldn't be a battle cloak, its 'advantage' makes so little difference.
A bird of prey with two atk pattern omegas and aux to dampeners can not only perform attack runs but egress untouched. If chased there are many ways to evade until re-cloak.
Knowing this is the difference between a good bop pilot and a bop pilot that thinks he's in a raptor.
battle cloak continues to be completely overrated. theres no reason every cloak shouldn't be a battle cloak, its 'advantage' makes so little difference.
True. The kdf battle cloak should be improved. It should increase the ship's damage bonus based on the stealth skill/aux power of the ship decloaking.
The fed cloak on the other hand should increase defense for its aux/stealth skill.
That alone would make it beneficial to KDF side and keeps the uniqueness aside from the Fed side.
Battle cloak is a tremendous advantage. If you understand the game mechanics you'd know cloak provides a damage bonus equivalent to a tac console using a purple mk11 to all damage type ( key word: ALL)
It has two Lt Cmdr slots AND a cmdr UNIVERSAL slots. The sheer firepower that this ship can have just from that alone is mind boggling.
Hull is weak.. yes. Shields are weak... who cares? A BoP is a cloak ambush ship not an attack ship like the defiant.
The 1 weapon less is in the rear. Therefore insignificant.
Learn the mechanics of the game and you will see just how powerful this ship can be.
Battle Cloak gives you the advantage of ONE extra tac console, with 1/4 up-time, at the price of dropping your shields in mid-combat.
For an alpha-ambush-strike, the normal cloak gives the FleetDefiant the same advantage, added to the 5 tac consoles it already has.
One extra aft turret grants roughly the same damage increase as one console.
So when you're flying around, enjoying the power of your "3+1=4" tac consoles, the F-Defiant captain is enjoying "5+1+1=7".
But I guess it's only fair that the Defiant gets a damage advantage, seeing how it's suffering by having double the hull and 30% more shields than the Norgh...
I'll grant, BC is a tremendous advantage against people who are basically clueless... against people who actually know how to play, it's really not worth much at all. I have several ideas as to how it could be made useful, but that's another topic altogeteher.
The BoP is supposed to be fragile, its more of a raider or scout ship. The defiant is an assault ship, like the raptor. The BoP is in the game for fans, its suppose to be easy to kill, it suppose to be quick on the run, and its suppose to dart in and out of battle. When is the last time you saw a lone BoP take on a fully equipped cruiser in Star Trek and win? I remember seeing groups of them fight one ship, but a lone one, that's a suicide run.
I ran a BOP all the way to 50 with my tact captain for fun. I liked the battle cloak, and actually survived better in its fragile frame during mirror events. Its a wonder full ship when grouped with others, it works very well at swooping in for an attack while the target is distracted. And as far as STFs go I ran quite a few normals, only thing that bothered me was the low firepower, my ship ran fine, but felt like I could have done more in another ship.
A BoP is suppose to be the lessor of a raptor, not a raptor. Its claim to fame is the battle cloak, if its not fitting into your style, or you want more damage, get a raptor... Might as well start a thread comparing the raptor the multi-vector escort next. Find a ship that works for you, if you run the two and the raptor works better use it.
In conclusion the BoP is like the rogue of STO, its not for every one, its easy to kill, and spends its time trying to avoid being hit. The goal of a BoP captain is to strike fast, and try to avoid fire. If you want a warrior ship to stand toe to toe, get a raptor or a cruiser.
The BoP is supposed to be fragile, its more of a raider or scout ship. The defiant is an assault ship, like the raptor. The BoP is in the game for fans, its suppose to be easy to kill, it suppose to be quick on the run, and its suppose to dart in and out of battle. When is the last time you saw a lone BoP take on a fully equipped cruiser in Star Trek and win? I remember seeing groups of them fight one ship, but a lone one, that's a suicide run.
I ran a BOP all the way to 50 with my tact captain for fun. I liked the battle cloak, and actually survived better in its fragile frame during mirror events. Its a wonder full ship when grouped with others, it works very well at swooping in for an attack while the target is distracted. And as far as STFs go I ran quite a few normals, only thing that bothered me was the low firepower, my ship ran fine, but felt like I could have done more in another ship.
A BoP is suppose to be the lessor of a raptor, not a raptor. Its claim to fame is the battle cloak, if its not fitting into your style, or you want more damage, get a raptor... Might as well start a thread comparing the raptor the multi-vector escort next. Find a ship that works for you, if you run the two and the raptor works better use it.
In conclusion the BoP is like the rogue of STO, its not for every one, its easy to kill, and spends its time trying to avoid being hit. The goal of a BoP captain is to strike fast, and try to avoid fire. If you want a warrior ship to stand toe to toe, get a raptor or a cruiser.
While I can certainly understand where you're coming from in general, there is a little detail to consider in case of this particular ship:
How can a ship that is as large as a K't'inga have a weaker hull than the shuttlecraft it carries?
Norgh vs Defiant:
Hull - 50% less
Shields - 36% less
Turnrate - 29% better
Weapons - 1 less
Consoles - 2 less Tac, one more Sci
Boff stations - One more Ltc slot, one less ensign slot.
Cloak - Battlecloak vs Regular Cloak (and we all know cloaking when in combat is certain death. Anyone who ever flew a BoP in PvP knows battlecloak is a joke)
So how does it compare? What can the Norgh do better than the defiant?
The Norgh has the same hull as the To'duj fighter, combined with the lowest shield ever seen on a BoP/Escort. It's pretty obvious this ship has to strike fast and hard, as it is not likely to survive any kind of counterattack.
So how it the Norghs ability to strike hard and fast? It has 2 tac consoles less than the new escorts, and one weapon less. This is a pretty severe disadvantage! Can the extra LtC slot make up for this? I think not. At best, it can help upgrade your HYT2 to a HYT3, or your BO2 to a BO3. Sure, this can help a little, but not as much as two extra tac consoles! Any other use of this slot would be to increase your survivability, but let's face it. It's not gonna hold up in sustained battle with THAT low hull and shields. It has too little shields to be able to take a DHC salvoe to the face, and too little hull to survive bleedthrough damage. In PvP or against NPCs, this ship is going to be the victim of countless one-shots.
So what could be done, to make the Norgh the BoP it's supposed to be? Here is my suggestion:
Survivability:
The hull is still extremely low. I increased it a little bit, to help prevent one-shot through shields. Still, it's nowhere near enough to even think about hull tanking. With the shields gone, it WILL pop. Becaue of this, I gave it a bit more shields. Still not as much as a Defiant, but enough to give it one or two more seconds of staying power. I also took away an eng console, to remove a bit of it's durability.
Damage:
I gave it a bit better turnrate. With a 20k hull, it SHOULD be able to out-turn anything in the game. I gave it a 4th tac console, to increase damage a bit. This ship is not going to stay in a fight for long periods anyway, so being able to deliver a decent amount of damage is crucial. It's still one tac console and one weapon short of a fed escort, but at least not miles behind.
This in my opinion would be a much more dynamic BoP. A ship that can actually have a chance to make a difference. Still a lot weaker than the Defiant or the Fleet AE, both in attack and defence, but at least not extremely far behind.
Many misleading statements, I believe deliberate, in your posts, chief of all the above:
1. Comparing a BoP to an Escort.
2. Neglecting or downplaying the BoP's advantages while overhyping the Escort's.
Want to compare something to the Defiant-F? Use the Qin-F:
First number: Qin-F; second number Defiant-F:
Hull: 36300 (should be 36630) - 33000
Shields: 4807 - 4703
BOFFs: same.
Crew: 200 - 50 (doesn't really matter)
Sci Consoles: same.
Eng Consoles: 4 - 2 (that Cloak has to go somewhere, Eng is the least impacting slot)
Eng Consoles after Borg module: 3 - 1
-> The Qin is slightly more resilient; though its Hull seems to have been shortchanged by 330 points (Fleet Ships usually have 10% more Hull than their counterparts).
Not a lot, but strange.
Quantifying the advantage depends on the ratio of Shield tanking to Hull tanking.
-> The Defiant has a significant (~13.33%) Turn advantage.
Technically, the Qin could sacrifice some of its survivability lead to turn that on its head (1 RCS Console).
Then again, you don't seem to value the difference between 22 and 17, so I don't see why you'd suddenly value the difference between 17 and 15.
Now, I know the Qin has that pivot point issue; PWE should really get around to correcting it (and get around to adding alternatives); but that aside it doesn't compare too unfavourably to the Defiant.
If its 10th Console was Tac instead of Eng, it'd actually be better than said Defiant in every respect (including Turn: the Qin could use a RCS in the slot occupied by the Defiant's Cloak).
Comparing a BoP to an Escort is disingenuous; they are different types of Ships and frankly, if you don't value the Battlecloak, Universal slots, much better turnrate or the stronger BOFF Layout (in the case of the Ning'tao), why are you flying a BoP instead of a Raptor?
If those things are worthless to you, you can just hop into a Qin (or Defiant), can you not?
If you really want to compare the Ning'tao or BoPs in general to FED equivalents, the only thing approaching it is the Aquarius. I don't think the BoP will end up a loser in that comparison.
Comparing a BoP to an Escort is disingenuous; they are different types of Ships and frankly, if you don't value the Battlecloak, Universal slots, much better turnrate or the stronger BOFF Layout (in the case of the Ning'tao), why are you flying a BoP instead of a Raptor?
If those things are worthless to you, you can just hop into a Qin (or Defiant), can you not?
If you really want to compare the Ning'tao or BoPs in general to FED equivalents, the only thing approaching it is the Aquarius. I don't think the BoP will end up a loser in that comparison.
And why are BoPs and escorts differnt types of ships? Because in the BoP you have the choise to fight as an escort, or suck at something else? Face it, unless you want to hit someone hard, you'd be better served with running something other than a BoP.
Universal consoles? All the best boff setups are available in fed escorts, with more consoles, more weapons, and a extra ensign.
Battlecloak vs regular cloak? Good agains utter noobs. Shaves a few seconds off the cloak time, if fighting anyone even moderately skilled.
If BoPs are worthless to me, they are to other people also. Sure, some will gimp themselves for the coolness of flying a BoP (myself included), and because of the crappiness of the raptors, but matched against the best fed escorts they all fall short.
Why a BoP in stead of the Raptor? Because the Raptor turns like a boat and does not have a good boff layout. (sure, the defiant has a equally crappy layout, but at least it turns better and strikes harder) I could have made a thread about how Raptors suck, but that has been done a hundred times already. I'll hold out for the Fleet Somraw and see how it handles before presenting a verdict.
Why on earth would I match it against the Aquarius? Because that one is one of the weaker fleet escorts? The Fleet AE can outperform the Aquarius on everything, and even the Aquarius outperforms the Norgh by miles. (Heck, even the Advanced Escort we've had since launch has better stats than the Aquarius)
(and Inertia? don't knock it till you've tried it... it actually gives you a maneuvering advantage)
Many misleading statements, I believe deliberate, in your posts, chief of all the above:
1. Comparing a BoP to an Escort.
2. Neglecting or downplaying the BoP's advantages while overhyping the Escort's.
Want to compare something to the Defiant-F? Use the Qin-F:
First number: Qin-F; second number Defiant-F:
Hull: 36300 (should be 36630) - 33000
Shields: 4807 - 4703
BOFFs: same.
Crew: 200 - 50 (doesn't really matter)
Sci Consoles: same.
Eng Consoles: 4 - 2 (that Cloak has to go somewhere, Eng is the least impacting slot)
Eng Consoles after Borg module: 3 - 1
-> The Qin is slightly more resilient; though its Hull seems to have been shortchanged by 330 points (Fleet Ships usually have 10% more Hull than their counterparts).
Not a lot, but strange.
Quantifying the advantage depends on the ratio of Shield tanking to Hull tanking.
-> The Defiant has a significant (~13.33%) Turn advantage.
Technically, the Qin could sacrifice some of its survivability lead to turn that on its head (1 RCS Console).
Then again, you don't seem to value the difference between 22 and 17, so I don't see why you'd suddenly value the difference between 17 and 15.
Now, I know the Qin has that pivot point issue; PWE should really get around to correcting it (and get around to adding alternatives); but that aside it doesn't compare too unfavourably to the Defiant.
If its 10th Console was Tac instead of Eng, it'd actually be better than said Defiant in every respect (including Turn: the Qin could use a RCS in the slot occupied by the Defiant's Cloak).
Comparing a BoP to an Escort is disingenuous; they are different types of Ships and frankly, if you don't value the Battlecloak, Universal slots, much better turnrate or the stronger BOFF Layout (in the case of the Ning'tao), why are you flying a BoP instead of a Raptor?
If those things are worthless to you, you can just hop into a Qin (or Defiant), can you not?
If you really want to compare the Ning'tao or BoPs in general to FED equivalents, the only thing approaching it is the Aquarius. I don't think the BoP will end up a loser in that comparison.
That pivot issue (thanks for at least acknowledging it) is the issue that cripples the Qin when it comes to fighting other escort-level ships. It works ok in PVE (and really, what DOESN'T?!), where you don't need to turn as well, but unless you're VERY good at handling your boff skills and piloting, you're gonna get turned into mincemeat while flying a raptor. Practically every fed escort out there can out-turn the thing due to the combination of slightly lower turning rate and the pivot issue. Out-turned = dead meat in PVP. You're better off flying a Vorcha, which has the turn rate and pivot it's supposed to have AND has cruiser tankability (unlike the Qin, which has Vorcha-level turning without cruiser tankability).
Fix that, and I (a BoP enthusiast) would fly a raptor once more. Until then, I'm making do in my Hegh'ta, with the 3 tac consoles and weak defenses.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
That pivot issue (thanks for at least acknowledging it) is the issue that cripples the Qin when it comes to fighting other escort-level ships. It works ok in PVE (and really, what DOESN'T?!), where you don't need to turn as well, but unless you're VERY good at handling your boff skills and piloting, you're gonna get turned into mincemeat while flying a raptor. Practically every fed escort out there can out-turn the thing due to the combination of slightly lower turning rate and the pivot issue. Out-turned = dead meat in PVP. You're better off flying a Vorcha, which has the turn rate and pivot it's supposed to have AND has cruiser tankability (unlike the Qin, which has Vorcha-level turning without cruiser tankability).
Fix that, and I (a BoP enthusiast) would fly a raptor once more. Until then, I'm making do in my Hegh'ta, with the 3 tac consoles and weak defenses.
ah the fleet vorcha, thing of beauty when flown like an escort. it can basically be built like an escort that is down a bit on spike, but can have EWP3, DEM3, or A2S3 and EPtS3 on the other end. since the qin is such an awful escort they should make it more cruiser like just how the fleet vorcha is more escort like. LTC and LT eng anyone? with its current stats unchanged? universal LT too
I can agree with this. 5 tac consoles may be a bit out of hand though. I also doubt 4 sci is a good idea, making it too strong compared to sci ships. 2-3-4 layout would be ideal imo. It's only fair that it looses something to balance the double ltc slots.
... what sci ships? I've yet to see one viable one.
just what I'm saying.. the sci ships (Varanus and Voquv) are weak, and we can't have the BoPs outperforming them on science
Well, a properly fit Bop can outperform both of those... I'd tho like to see a KDF carrier that can perform akin to my Fed-side Atrox ... Vo'quv comes close, but not equivalent...
Well, a properly fit Bop can outperform both of those... I'd tho like to see a KDF carrier that can perform akin to my Fed-side Atrox ... Vo'quv comes close, but not equivalent...
I've yet to see a fed carrier coming anywhere close to a Kar'fi... and the vo'quv with power drones can shut down any ship. Siphons are OP.
Had a quick read through this thread and while everyone is comparing the Fleet Norgh to the Defiant and how it fairs as a Sci ship it seem that no one has picked up on the thing that is truly wrong with this ship.
Gecko had stated on Priority One I believe that 'All Fleet Ship have 10% more Hull and Shields' now that would be compared to there Normal T5 counterparts, but the Normal Norgh is a T3 ship so lets compare it with that and a normal T5 BoP.
T3 Norgh
Boffs: Universal Lt.Cmdr, Universal Lt and 2 Universal Ensigns
Consoles: 2 Eng, 1 Sci and 2 Tac
Weapons: 3 Fore 2 Aft
Crew: 75
Base Turn: 22
Device slots: 2
Base Hull: 16000
Shield Mod: 0.8
Fleet Norgh
Boffs: Universal Cmdr, 2 Universal Lt.Cmdr and Universal Lt (Awesome set up)
Consoles: 3 Eng, 3 Sci and 3 Tac
Weapons: 4 Fore 2 Aft
Crew: 75
Base Turn: 22
Device slots: 2
Base Hull: 16500 (Anyone see a problem here, it only has 500 more HP than a T3 BoP)
Shield Mod: 0.66 (See another problem, yep less shields than a T3 BoP)
Now to compare with a normal T5 BoP
T5 Hegh'ta
Boffs: Universal Cmdr, Universal Lt.Cmd and 2 Universal Lt
Consoles: 3 Eng, 3 Sci and 3 Tac
Weapons: 4 Fore 2 Aft
Crew: 100
Base Turn: 21
Device Slots: 2
Base Hull: 24000
Shield Mod: 0.8
So as we can see the Fleet Norgh isn't even worthy of being called a 'Fleet' ship since it has only 500 more hull and 0.14 less Shields mod than it's T3 counter part.
Now it not having it's 10th console can be considered fair trade-off for it's Extra Universal Lt.Cmd....but the rest of it is worthless unless it gets it's Hull and Shield Mod fixed first.
Hopefully it can be fixed soon as I was looking forward to this ship once my fleets T3 Shipyard is done
ah the fleet vorcha, thing of beauty when flown like an escort. it can basically be built like an escort that is down a bit on spike, but can have EWP3, DEM3, or A2S3 and EPtS3 on the other end. since the qin is such an awful escort they should make it more cruiser like just how the fleet vorcha is more escort like. LTC and LT eng anyone? with its current stats unchanged? universal LT too
Exactly. There really isn't anything the Raptor does especially well, it's as simple as that. With the turning problems, it's not a comparatively effective DPS/speed escort, and it's not built for tanking and survivability to any great extent. It's in limbo somewhere, and that's why we see more BoPs, Gurambas, and other escort-level ships than raptors. The BoPs have lower DPS and tanking, but they can at least attempt to fulfill the escort role, especially if they team up with another skilled BoP pilot.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
i highly doubt the fleet norgh actually has a .66 shield mod, with how incorrect the other sub tier 5 fleet ships have been. the fleet saber has better then .9, when it was advertized as having a mod in the .60s or .70s my fleet ktinga has a 1.07 mod too. the tool tip on a shield shows the advertized value, but the actual hit points per facing show differently.
in all likelihood you can count on the norgh to have a better shield mod then any other bop, .8+
i highly doubt the fleet norgh actually has a .66 shield mod, with how incorrect the other sub tier 5 fleet ships have been. the fleet saber has better then .9, when it was advertized as having a mod in the .60s or .70s my fleet ktinga has a 1.07 mod too. the tool tip on a shield shows the advertized value, but the actual hit points per facing show differently.
in all likelihood you can count on the norgh to have a better shield mod then any other bop, .8+
I hope your right about that, though am hesitant to buy the Fleet Norgh until the tool tip is fixed or a Dev states the true stats. So I guess they got a week to do that till our T3 Shipyard is done :P
i highly doubt the fleet norgh actually has a .66 shield mod, with how incorrect the other sub tier 5 fleet ships have been. the fleet saber has better then .9, when it was advertized as having a mod in the .60s or .70s my fleet ktinga has a 1.07 mod too. the tool tip on a shield shows the advertized value, but the actual hit points per facing show differently.
in all likelihood you can count on the norgh to have a better shield mod then any other bop, .8+
I pay you're right, and that this ship gets some more hull than advertised too, or else I know how to build a ship that can reliably one-TRIBBLE this ship like it was a shuttle.
So as we can see the Fleet Norgh isn't even worthy of being called a 'Fleet' ship since it has only 500 more hull and 0.14 less Shields mod than it's T3 counter part.
Now it not having it's 10th console can be considered fair trade-off for it's Extra Universal Lt.Cmd....but the rest of it is worthless unless it gets it's Hull and Shield Mod fixed first.
Hopefully it can be fixed soon as I was looking forward to this ship once my fleets T3 Shipyard is done
I'd hope it's just an oversight on the Dev's part, but the lack of a response is rather disheartening and part of the overall issue with the KDF faction, lack on interest on the Dav's part.
Support the Game by Supporting the KDF, equality and uniqueness for all factions!
Comments
not to mention the most deadly station combinations for the bop have been nerfed to the ground, recreated on a fed escort, or simply made nonviable by the new skill tree.
the advantage of all those universal stations is a bit of an illution really, and we all know battle cloaking in weapons range is begging for death, the bop really has nothing going for it, its like an escort with 1 arm tied behind its back
all bops should get a universal ENS, except the 2x LTC bop, a shield mod no lower then .8, hitpoints between 24k and 28k, and the fleet ships should get a console setups that favor tactical and science
Now's a good time to point out that its really good against the "short bus passengers" that don't use torpedoes. Find one of those guys and use it in front of them! Maybe that will brighten your day a bit.
But sign me up for the "Fleet BOP is a JOKE" thread cause I'm HERE for the duration.
EDIT: Clarified the type of player that eschews torpedoes over cannons.
As I mentioned, just as there's proper ways to battle cloak, there are counters that make even that a dicey proposition at best. Ironicly, my Sci Garumba was good at chasing down a cloaking BoP. And not just "hit the upside down V and hope" sorts of folks either.
A fith forward weapon slot is a nice idea. Visually, a BoP's forward weapons are very strongly represented, and very big.
Seriously, I'd like to know.
Was it a shot in the dark?
Did they have something specific in mind, particular builds?
Did they even test this before it went live?
I love the Norgh.
I feel it's the only Cryptic-designed BoP that properly captures the sense it's a new generation of larger, more powerful BoPs for a new era.
It's a bit round, with a unique shape to its wings.
The subtle additional disruptors say "this ship means business" without making the vessel look overblown like some of the other models.
I can easily imagine this ship in the shows, fitting right in without a problem.
Ever since the B'rel retrofit came out, I wondered why there was no way to fly this ship.
Now it's there and I'm unwilling to spend even a cent on it thanks to these...these weird stats.:(
Qapla'! I will fight in my BoP to the end, to death and glory! I don't care how much they leave the BoP behind, stat-wise. I'm sticking with it, and will continue to demand fair treatment of the KDF in general.
Battle cloak is a tremendous advantage. If you understand the game mechanics you'd know cloak provides a damage bonus equivalent to a tac console using a purple mk11 to all damage type ( key word: ALL)
It has two Lt Cmdr slots AND a cmdr UNIVERSAL slots. The sheer firepower that this ship can have just from that alone is mind boggling.
Hull is weak.. yes. Shields are weak... who cares? A BoP is a cloak ambush ship not an attack ship like the defiant.
The 1 weapon less is in the rear. Therefore insignificant.
Learn the mechanics of the game and you will see just how powerful this ship can be.
you didn't mention anything a normal cloak doesn't also do
you just described your standard evasive maneuver escape. if you do it right, nothing should be able to catch up to a bop. battle cloak only allows you to cloak wile red alert is active, but if your already out of weapons range and they cant catch you, it doesn't mater how soon you cloak.
battle cloak continues to be completely overrated. theres no reason every cloak shouldn't be a battle cloak, its 'advantage' makes so little difference.
Knowing this is the difference between a good bop pilot and a bop pilot that thinks he's in a raptor.
True. The kdf battle cloak should be improved. It should increase the ship's damage bonus based on the stealth skill/aux power of the ship decloaking.
The fed cloak on the other hand should increase defense for its aux/stealth skill.
That alone would make it beneficial to KDF side and keeps the uniqueness aside from the Fed side.
Battle Cloak gives you the advantage of ONE extra tac console, with 1/4 up-time, at the price of dropping your shields in mid-combat.
For an alpha-ambush-strike, the normal cloak gives the FleetDefiant the same advantage, added to the 5 tac consoles it already has.
One extra aft turret grants roughly the same damage increase as one console.
So when you're flying around, enjoying the power of your "3+1=4" tac consoles, the F-Defiant captain is enjoying "5+1+1=7".
But I guess it's only fair that the Defiant gets a damage advantage, seeing how it's suffering by having double the hull and 30% more shields than the Norgh...
I'll grant, BC is a tremendous advantage against people who are basically clueless... against people who actually know how to play, it's really not worth much at all. I have several ideas as to how it could be made useful, but that's another topic altogeteher.
I ran a BOP all the way to 50 with my tact captain for fun. I liked the battle cloak, and actually survived better in its fragile frame during mirror events. Its a wonder full ship when grouped with others, it works very well at swooping in for an attack while the target is distracted. And as far as STFs go I ran quite a few normals, only thing that bothered me was the low firepower, my ship ran fine, but felt like I could have done more in another ship.
A BoP is suppose to be the lessor of a raptor, not a raptor. Its claim to fame is the battle cloak, if its not fitting into your style, or you want more damage, get a raptor... Might as well start a thread comparing the raptor the multi-vector escort next. Find a ship that works for you, if you run the two and the raptor works better use it.
In conclusion the BoP is like the rogue of STO, its not for every one, its easy to kill, and spends its time trying to avoid being hit. The goal of a BoP captain is to strike fast, and try to avoid fire. If you want a warrior ship to stand toe to toe, get a raptor or a cruiser.
While I can certainly understand where you're coming from in general, there is a little detail to consider in case of this particular ship:
How can a ship that is as large as a K't'inga have a weaker hull than the shuttlecraft it carries?
Many misleading statements, I believe deliberate, in your posts, chief of all the above:
1. Comparing a BoP to an Escort.
2. Neglecting or downplaying the BoP's advantages while overhyping the Escort's.
Want to compare something to the Defiant-F? Use the Qin-F:
First number: Qin-F; second number Defiant-F:
Hull: 36300 (should be 36630) - 33000
Shields: 4807 - 4703
BOFFs: same.
Crew: 200 - 50 (doesn't really matter)
Sci Consoles: same.
Eng Consoles: 4 - 2 (that Cloak has to go somewhere, Eng is the least impacting slot)
Eng Consoles after Borg module: 3 - 1
-> The Qin is slightly more resilient; though its Hull seems to have been shortchanged by 330 points (Fleet Ships usually have 10% more Hull than their counterparts).
Not a lot, but strange.
Quantifying the advantage depends on the ratio of Shield tanking to Hull tanking.
Weaponry: same.
BOFFs: same.
Cloaks: regular for both.
Tac Consoles: 4 - 5
-> The Defiant has an offensive advantage.
16% with high-end Consoles (unless I've forgotten some factors).
Turn: 15 - 17
Impulse mod: same.
Inertia: 60 - 70 (doesn't really matter)
-> The Defiant has a significant (~13.33%) Turn advantage.
Technically, the Qin could sacrifice some of its survivability lead to turn that on its head (1 RCS Console).
Then again, you don't seem to value the difference between 22 and 17, so I don't see why you'd suddenly value the difference between 17 and 15.
Now, I know the Qin has that pivot point issue; PWE should really get around to correcting it (and get around to adding alternatives); but that aside it doesn't compare too unfavourably to the Defiant.
If its 10th Console was Tac instead of Eng, it'd actually be better than said Defiant in every respect (including Turn: the Qin could use a RCS in the slot occupied by the Defiant's Cloak).
Comparing a BoP to an Escort is disingenuous; they are different types of Ships and frankly, if you don't value the Battlecloak, Universal slots, much better turnrate or the stronger BOFF Layout (in the case of the Ning'tao), why are you flying a BoP instead of a Raptor?
If those things are worthless to you, you can just hop into a Qin (or Defiant), can you not?
If you really want to compare the Ning'tao or BoPs in general to FED equivalents, the only thing approaching it is the Aquarius. I don't think the BoP will end up a loser in that comparison.
Universal consoles? All the best boff setups are available in fed escorts, with more consoles, more weapons, and a extra ensign.
Battlecloak vs regular cloak? Good agains utter noobs. Shaves a few seconds off the cloak time, if fighting anyone even moderately skilled.
If BoPs are worthless to me, they are to other people also. Sure, some will gimp themselves for the coolness of flying a BoP (myself included), and because of the crappiness of the raptors, but matched against the best fed escorts they all fall short.
Why a BoP in stead of the Raptor? Because the Raptor turns like a boat and does not have a good boff layout. (sure, the defiant has a equally crappy layout, but at least it turns better and strikes harder) I could have made a thread about how Raptors suck, but that has been done a hundred times already. I'll hold out for the Fleet Somraw and see how it handles before presenting a verdict.
Why on earth would I match it against the Aquarius? Because that one is one of the weaker fleet escorts? The Fleet AE can outperform the Aquarius on everything, and even the Aquarius outperforms the Norgh by miles. (Heck, even the Advanced Escort we've had since launch has better stats than the Aquarius)
(and Inertia? don't knock it till you've tried it... it actually gives you a maneuvering advantage)
That pivot issue (thanks for at least acknowledging it) is the issue that cripples the Qin when it comes to fighting other escort-level ships. It works ok in PVE (and really, what DOESN'T?!), where you don't need to turn as well, but unless you're VERY good at handling your boff skills and piloting, you're gonna get turned into mincemeat while flying a raptor. Practically every fed escort out there can out-turn the thing due to the combination of slightly lower turning rate and the pivot issue. Out-turned = dead meat in PVP. You're better off flying a Vorcha, which has the turn rate and pivot it's supposed to have AND has cruiser tankability (unlike the Qin, which has Vorcha-level turning without cruiser tankability).
Fix that, and I (a BoP enthusiast) would fly a raptor once more. Until then, I'm making do in my Hegh'ta, with the 3 tac consoles and weak defenses.
ah the fleet vorcha, thing of beauty when flown like an escort. it can basically be built like an escort that is down a bit on spike, but can have EWP3, DEM3, or A2S3 and EPtS3 on the other end. since the qin is such an awful escort they should make it more cruiser like just how the fleet vorcha is more escort like. LTC and LT eng anyone? with its current stats unchanged? universal LT too
just what I'm saying.. the sci ships (Varanus and Voquv) are weak, and we can't have the BoPs outperforming them on science
Well, a properly fit Bop can outperform both of those... I'd tho like to see a KDF carrier that can perform akin to my Fed-side Atrox
I've yet to see a fed carrier coming anywhere close to a Kar'fi... and the vo'quv with power drones can shut down any ship. Siphons are OP.
Gecko had stated on Priority One I believe that 'All Fleet Ship have 10% more Hull and Shields' now that would be compared to there Normal T5 counterparts, but the Normal Norgh is a T3 ship so lets compare it with that and a normal T5 BoP.
T3 Norgh
Boffs: Universal Lt.Cmdr, Universal Lt and 2 Universal Ensigns
Consoles: 2 Eng, 1 Sci and 2 Tac
Weapons: 3 Fore 2 Aft
Crew: 75
Base Turn: 22
Device slots: 2
Base Hull: 16000
Shield Mod: 0.8
Fleet Norgh
Boffs: Universal Cmdr, 2 Universal Lt.Cmdr and Universal Lt (Awesome set up)
Consoles: 3 Eng, 3 Sci and 3 Tac
Weapons: 4 Fore 2 Aft
Crew: 75
Base Turn: 22
Device slots: 2
Base Hull: 16500 (Anyone see a problem here, it only has 500 more HP than a T3 BoP)
Shield Mod: 0.66 (See another problem, yep less shields than a T3 BoP)
Now to compare with a normal T5 BoP
T5 Hegh'ta
Boffs: Universal Cmdr, Universal Lt.Cmd and 2 Universal Lt
Consoles: 3 Eng, 3 Sci and 3 Tac
Weapons: 4 Fore 2 Aft
Crew: 100
Base Turn: 21
Device Slots: 2
Base Hull: 24000
Shield Mod: 0.8
So as we can see the Fleet Norgh isn't even worthy of being called a 'Fleet' ship since it has only 500 more hull and 0.14 less Shields mod than it's T3 counter part.
Now it not having it's 10th console can be considered fair trade-off for it's Extra Universal Lt.Cmd....but the rest of it is worthless unless it gets it's Hull and Shield Mod fixed first.
Hopefully it can be fixed soon as I was looking forward to this ship once my fleets T3 Shipyard is done
Exactly. There really isn't anything the Raptor does especially well, it's as simple as that. With the turning problems, it's not a comparatively effective DPS/speed escort, and it's not built for tanking and survivability to any great extent. It's in limbo somewhere, and that's why we see more BoPs, Gurambas, and other escort-level ships than raptors. The BoPs have lower DPS and tanking, but they can at least attempt to fulfill the escort role, especially if they team up with another skilled BoP pilot.
in all likelihood you can count on the norgh to have a better shield mod then any other bop, .8+
I hope your right about that, though am hesitant to buy the Fleet Norgh until the tool tip is fixed or a Dev states the true stats. So I guess they got a week to do that till our T3 Shipyard is done :P
I pay you're right, and that this ship gets some more hull than advertised too, or else I know how to build a ship that can reliably one-TRIBBLE this ship like it was a shuttle.
I'd hope it's just an oversight on the Dev's part, but the lack of a response is rather disheartening and part of the overall issue with the KDF faction, lack on interest on the Dav's part.
R.I.P
Here we watch the Fleet Norg approaching it's target!