Norgh vs Defiant:
Hull - 50% less
Shields - 36% less
Turnrate - 29% better
Weapons - 1 less
Consoles - 2 less Tac, one more Sci
Boff stations - One more Ltc slot, one less ensign slot.
Cloak - Battlecloak vs Regular Cloak (and we all know cloaking when in combat is certain death. Anyone who ever flew a BoP in PvP knows battlecloak is a joke)
So how does it compare? What can the Norgh do better than the defiant?
The Norgh has the same hull as the To'duj fighter, combined with the lowest shield ever seen on a BoP/Escort. It's pretty obvious this ship has to strike fast and hard, as it is not likely to survive any kind of counterattack.
So how it the Norghs ability to strike hard and fast? It has 2 tac consoles less than the new escorts, and one weapon less. This is a pretty severe disadvantage! Can the extra LtC slot make up for this? I think not. At best, it can help upgrade your HYT2 to a HYT3, or your BO2 to a BO3. Sure, this can help a little, but not as much as two extra tac consoles! Any other use of this slot would be to increase your survivability, but let's face it. It's not gonna hold up in sustained battle with THAT low hull and shields. It has too little shields to be able to take a DHC salvoe to the face, and too little hull to survive bleedthrough damage. In PvP or against NPCs, this ship is going to be the victim of countless one-shots.
So what could be done, to make the Norgh the BoP it's supposed to be? Here is my suggestion:
Survivability:
The hull is still extremely low. I increased it a little bit, to help prevent one-shot through shields. Still, it's nowhere near enough to even think about hull tanking. With the shields gone, it WILL pop. Becaue of this, I gave it a bit more shields. Still not as much as a Defiant, but enough to give it one or two more seconds of staying power. I also took away an eng console, to remove a bit of it's durability.
Damage:
I gave it a bit better turnrate. With a 20k hull, it SHOULD be able to out-turn anything in the game. I gave it a 4th tac console, to increase damage a bit. This ship is not going to stay in a fight for long periods anyway, so being able to deliver a decent amount of damage is crucial. It's still one tac console and one weapon short of a fed escort, but at least not miles behind.
This in my opinion would be a much more dynamic BoP. A ship that can actually have a chance to make a difference. Still a lot weaker than the Defiant or the Fleet AE, both in attack and defence, but at least not extremely far behind.
I think you use it either as a pure hit and run ship, or as a science ship. I definitely think they should give it more hull/shields, but you have to be careful because that extra Lt. Comm. Sci power could potentially be very powerful.
I don't think it's a joke.
I think it's an experiment on Cryptic's side to give us something different.
However in an attempt to balance the familiar maneuverability of the BoP with the second LtC slot this ship is wayyy too much of a compromise all around.
Too many weak spots for its potential flexibility.
It lacks a 10th console slot as well as hull and shields.
IMO they should redo this ship.
A lot.
My personal proposal would be to give us several BoPs that are only different in their console layout.
Keep the BO setup like we know it:
4/3/2/2.
Use the 3/3/3 console layout of the standard T5 BoP as a basis and give us 3 BoPs for now with a 4th in each category.
Make the Norgh the one with the 4th science console if you wish.
The way it's now it seems geared for support anyways.
Just make it a workable supporter instead of an overspecialized giant shuttle.
One additional model with a 4th Eng console (Hegh'ta for example? It's big enough) and we'd have a well-rounded trio at our disposal.
I don't think it's a joke.
I think it's an experiment on Cryptic's side to give us something different.
However in an attempt to balance the familiar maneuverability of the BoP with the second LtC slot this ship is wayyy too much of a compromise all around.
Too many weak spots for its potential flexibility.
It lacks a 10th console slot as well as hull and shields.
IMO they should redo this ship.
A lot.
My personal proposal would be to give us several BoPs that are only different in their console layout.
Keep the BO setup like we know it:
4/3/2/2.
Use the 3/3/3 console layout of the standard T5 BoP as a basis and give us 3 BoPs for now with a 4th in each category.
Make the Norgh the one with the 4th science console if you wish.
The way it's now it seems geared for support anyways.
Just make it a workable supporter instead of an overspecialized giant shuttle.
One additional model with a 4th Eng console (Hegh'ta for example? It's big enough) and we'd have a well-rounded trio at our disposal.
Just a BoP with an extra console? That's not even enough to get it in line with the current T5 escorts, like the MVAM and the Defiant. Much less with the Fleet escorts or the Jem'hadar ship.
I like the concept that Cryptic is trying to give us here, but it's flawed in 2 points imo.
1. The hull and shields are so low, that any big hit from another player, or a borg cube, will just smash it. This is even a problem with the retrofit B'rel, and that one is stronger than the Norgh. Being constantly one-shotted is no fun.
2. It does not deliver hard enough a "hit" to be a hit-n-run ship. 3 tac consoles has always been the weak point of BoPs compared to other escort-like ship. Now that many of the other ships get 5, having 3 becomes a serious disadvantage.
Ofc, the advantage of the second Ltc has to be countered, but this is an advantage that generally will take time to take advantage of, via sci abilities. And let's face it, in this ship you'll be forced to run away very fast. I think taking away one console, sci or eng, will be a sever enough advantage, putting your total console count 2 below your opponents.
Just a BoP with an extra console? That's not even enough to get it in line with the current T5 escorts, like the MVAM and the Defiant. Much less with the Fleet escorts or the Jem'hadar ship.
I like the concept that Cryptic is trying to give us here, but it's flawed in 2 points imo.
1. The hull and shields are so low, that any big hit from another player, or a borg cube, will just smash it. This is even a problem with the retrofit B'rel, and that one is stronger than the Norgh. Being constantly one-shotted is no fun.
2. It does not deliver hard enough a "hit" to be a hit-n-run ship. 3 tac consoles has always been the weak point of BoPs compared to other escort-like ship. Now that many of the other ships get 5, having 3 becomes a serious disadvantage.
Ofc, the advantage of the second Ltc has to be countered, but this is an advantage that generally will take time to take advantage of, via sci abilities. And let's face it, in this ship you'll be forced to run away very fast. I think taking away one console, sci or eng, will be a sever enough advantage, putting your total console count 2 below your opponents.
I used the Fleet Hoh'0SuS as a template in this context.
It has a 4th console in the TAC department and the familiar 4/3/2/2 BO sertup.
Also don't forget that all fleet ships that are based on a T5 ship have one more console on top of an existing setup.
So giving a BoP 5 TAC consoles would require to remove one from another area even though the T5 BoPs all have 3/3/3.
It breaks the mold, not to mention we're running into the risk of creating an overlap with the Raptors.
In addition it would make sense for those who'd like to run a science in a BoP to actually have a ship with more than 3 science consoles.
Norgh vs Defiant:
Hull - 50% less
Shields - 36% less
Turnrate - 29% better
Weapons - 1 less
Consoles - 2 less Tac, one more Sci
Boff stations - One more Ltc slot, one less ensign slot.
Cloak - Battlecloak vs Regular Cloak (and we all know cloaking when in combat is certain death. Anyone who ever flew a BoP in PvP knows battlecloak is a joke)
So how does it compare? What can the Norgh do better than the defiant?
The Norgh has the same hull as the To'duj fighter, combined with the lowest shield ever seen on a BoP/Escort. It's pretty obvious this ship has to strike fast and hard, as it is not likely to survive any kind of counterattack.
So how it the Norghs ability to strike hard and fast? It has 2 tac consoles less than the new escorts, and one weapon less. This is a pretty severe disadvantage! Can the extra LtC slot make up for this? I think not. At best, it can help upgrade your HYT2 to a HYT3, or your BO2 to a BO3. Sure, this can help a little, but not as much as two extra tac consoles! Any other use of this slot would be to increase your survivability, but let's face it. It's not gonna hold up in sustained battle with THAT low hull and shields. It has too little shields to be able to take a DHC salvoe to the face, and too little hull to survive bleedthrough damage. In PvP or against NPCs, this ship is going to be the victim of countless one-shots.
So what could be done, to make the Norgh the BoP it's supposed to be? Here is my suggestion:
Survivability:
The hull is still extremely low. I increased it a little bit, to help prevent one-shot through shields. Still, it's nowhere near enough to even think about hull tanking. With the shields gone, it WILL pop. Becaue of this, I gave it a bit more shields. Still not as much as a Defiant, but enough to give it one or two more seconds of staying power. I also took away an eng console, to remove a bit of it's durability.
Damage:
I gave it a bit better turnrate. With a 20k hull, it SHOULD be able to out-turn anything in the game. I gave it a 4th tac console, to increase damage a bit. This ship is not going to stay in a fight for long periods anyway, so being able to deliver a decent amount of damage is crucial. It's still one tac console and one weapon short of a fed escort, but at least not miles behind.
This in my opinion would be a much more dynamic BoP. A ship that can actually have a chance to make a difference. Still a lot weaker than the Defiant or the Fleet AE, both in attack and defence, but at least not extremely far behind.
Sure sure almost all this is good. Certainly, good stuff, bop is just NOT stacking up with the new fleet bases. Good idea.
Battle Cloak is not a joke. If you can't seem to make it work its likely best you just don't use a BOP. Use a raptor or something if you want the Decloak and strike. If you're a Sci kid, don't know what to tell you. Battle Cloak works.
Sure sure almost all this is good. Certainly, good stuff, bop is just NOT stacking up with the new fleet bases. Good idea.
Battle Cloak is not a joke. If you can't seem to make it work its likely best you just don't use a BOP. Use a raptor or something if you want the Decloak and strike. If you're a Sci kid, don't know what to tell you. Battle Cloak works.
Cheers and happy flying.
In hundreds and hundreds of arena matches flow in raptor, heghta and retro-brels, I have yet to see any application of the battle cloak that is superior to regular cloak used on a raptor.
In hundreds and hundreds of arena matches as a Fed, I have yet to see any BoP use battlecloak to their advantage. All I see is people who cloak early, before they have had a chance to make a difference, people who cloak too late, and does not survive it, and people who don't cloak before the last of their opponents is dead.
Sure, there are some strange builds out there, like healers and CCs, but frankly that's a waste of the BoPs killing-potential. If you wanna fly a healer, grab a cruiser, if you wanna fly a CC ship... STO is not really the game for you atm...
Anyway, let's not turn this into a Cloak vs BCloak debate, let's agree that some people see it as an advantage and some don't. Let's call it a situational advantage and move on. I'd much rather debate the other sides of the build. I'd hate for the Norgh to be a flop, but I'd also hate for it to be OP.
The difference in hull is negligable to the hegh'ta. from 24k to 24.75k the difference in shields is about 12%. The only significant difference from the Hegh'ta is the 4th tac console. The Ho'sus is a minor improvement of the Hegh'ta, and I can't see this ship being wort spending a single Zen on as it is. The least they could do would be to add 3k hull and an ensign OR a 3rd aft weapon. But this thread was about the Norgh joke, the Ho'sus Joke belongs in another thread!
The difference in hull is negligable to the hegh'ta. from 24k to 24.75k the difference in shields is about 12%. The only significant difference from the Hegh'ta is the 4th tac console. The Ho'sus is a minor improvement of the Hegh'ta, and I can't see this ship being wort spending a single Zen on as it is. The least they could do would be to add 3k hull and an ensign OR a 3rd aft weapon. But this thread was about the Norgh joke, the Ho'sus Joke belongs in another thread!
The Hegh'ta is not really the ideal ship to compare it to.
The Hoh'Sus has a turnrate of 22 as opposed to the Hegh'ta's 21.
The ship to compare it to would be the B'rel, giving us an increase of 3750.
Consequently I could easily see a Fleet Hegh'ta with a turnrate of 21 something in the area of 28,000 points of hull.
But since you insist on calling this a "joke" and basically seem to consider every opinion that does not agree with yours to be not worth considering I'd better leave now.
I think the Fleet Ning'tao/Norgh BoP was intended to be something along the lines of the ultimate glass cannon. They just, IMHO, missed the mark a bit on usability.
A hair more hull, say 20k base, shields up to about par for the Qin (.83), same BOff's and one of the two following console layouts: 2 ENG / 4 SCI / 4 TAC or 1 ENG / 4 SCI / 5 TAC.
Ho'sus ought to be the better rounded bird, keep the current layout for consoles, and pick up that ENS Uni it's missing.
JM2c, and certainly not intended as iron-clad perfectly balanced suggestions. More of a starting point, really.
The Hegh'ta is not really the ideal ship to compare it to.
The Hoh'Sus has a turnrate of 22 as opposed to the Hegh'ta's 21.
The ship to compare it to would be the B'rel, giving us an increase of 3750.
Consequently I could easily see a Fleet Hegh'ta with a turnrate of 21 something in the area of 28,000 points of hull.
But since you insist on calling this a "joke" and basically seem to consider every opinion that does not agree with yours to be not worth considering I'd better leave now.
I call the Ho'sus a joke because it's basically the same BoP we had in game since launch. The differences are small enough for 90% of the users to not even notice. Why would I compare it to the B'rel, when it's almost identical to the Hegh'ta? I could compare it to the Vo'quv and claim it's a gamechanging concept, but really, comparing it to the closest match is more relevant... See, I'm considering your opinion and arguing against it.
I call the Norgh a joke because it's health is below what can be very easily one-shotted by other players and NPCs alike, making it unusable for any and all purposes. We already see the retro-brel balancing on this edge, so introducing a ship with far less health is an obvious fail.
I think the Fleet Ning'tao/Norgh BoP was intended to be something along the lines of the ultimate glass cannon. They just, IMHO, missed the mark a bit on usability.
A hair more hull, say 20k base, shields up to about par for the Qin (.83), same BOff's and one of the two following console layouts: 2 ENG / 4 SCI / 4 TAC or 1 ENG / 4 SCI / 5 TAC.
Ho'sus ought to be the better rounded bird, keep the current layout for consoles, and pick up that ENS Uni it's missing.
JM2c, and certainly not intended as iron-clad perfectly balanced suggestions. More of a starting point, really.
I can agree with this. 5 tac consoles may be a bit out of hand though. I also doubt 4 sci is a good idea, making it too strong compared to sci ships. 2-3-4 layout would be ideal imo. It's only fair that it looses something to balance the double ltc slots.
BoPs in general probably need a buff to stay competitive. The advantages they yielded hull points, shield points, an aft weapon and an ensign slot for are not really advantages any more. All the previously unique boff layouts exist in the form of escorts or sci ships that give nothing up for them, and AOE and bigger spike damage in general work against it as well. Granted, it can battle cloak, but that often places them in a position of healing from a fight far more slowly than their opponent, and external heals to ease this often expose the BoP, leaving them vulnerable to attack from anyone marginally competent in fighting battle cloaking ships. And even battle cloaking properly, rather than just relying on hitting the cloak button by itself, is a lottery these days. Between sensor scan, APD, PSW, CPB the aforementioned AOE, the new found prolliferance of mines, and FOMM, anyone who knows that they're doing will roast you unless you also get out of the vicinity, which you could just do in a Raptor or escort anyway.
They're still fun to fly, but when something as shoddy as the Qin Raptor becomes a viable alternative, you know something's gone wrong in BoPville.
The fact that the fleet BoPs so far seem unimpressive compared to the fleet escorts is a real shame. However, aside from cruisers, the KDF seems to have done worse over all with the fleet ships.
The other Fleet BoP is also a joke. There is essentially nothing in terms of stats distinguishing it from the free Hegh'ta. And we're expected to pay $20 or equivalent in-game materials for these? No.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
I call the Ho'sus a joke because it's basically the same BoP we had in game since launch. The differences are small enough for 90% of the users to not even notice. Why would I compare it to the B'rel, when it's almost identical to the Hegh'ta? I could compare it to the Vo'quv and claim it's a gamechanging concept, but really, comparing it to the closest match is more relevant... See, I'm considering your opinion and arguing against it.
I call the Norgh a joke because it's health is below what can be very easily one-shotted by other players and NPCs alike, making it unusable for any and all purposes. We already see the retro-brel balancing on this edge, so introducing a ship with far less health is an obvious fail.
You're comparing the Norgh to the Defiant, not the Hegh'ta.
So you're not comparing with the closest match.
Besides I thought we were discussing based on relevant data and not based on what you think others might think to be relevant.
Because obviously everyone else in this thread seems to think using relevant data instead of your rather esoteric definition of what should be relevant makes more sense.
Also we know how very similar most other Fleet Ships are to their non-fleet versions.
Particularly when you compare them to their T5 non-fleet counterparts.
So your criticism of the Hoh'Sus as not being different enough is based on...nothing I can identify to be honest.
I can only fathom you want to say you would have preferred a 5th tactical console instead of the 3rd engineering console from the Hoh'SuS to the Fleet Hoh'SuS but you just don't seem to actually mention it anywhere and instead prefer to just use the word "joke" and expect everyone to know what you mean by that.
And (this is just an oversarvation not a criticism) you seem to want something entirely different from just about everyone else:
you want a fleet ship that is as different from the other BoPs as possible while it seems erveryone else wants something that is a reasonable extension of what we already have.
In addition you appearently see the BoP as an escort...exclusively.
Otherwise you wouldn't call anything besides what you think this ship is "strange builds" or told thissler to "get a cruiser".
This is also evident in your comparison with the Defiant even though the counterpart to the Defiant and the other escorts are the Raptors.
While I can certainly appreciate the fact this is "your thread" since you opened it, there seems to be a signifficant difference in opinion what a BoP is between you and...well just about everyone else.
So what I think we agree on:
the way it's implemented now the Norgh does not work.
To work it needs a serious boost in hull.
And some other buff would not hurt either.
You seem to favour a turnrate of 25, I'd prefer a 10th console slot.
Where we obviously don't agree is the how.
I've read your idea however I honestly think there's no way to keep both the dual LtC slots and buff the hull to something workable.
it's an attempt by cryptic to demonstrate the unfeasability of the KDF. With the BOPs being the last unique gameplay factor of the KDF, offering this BS at 20$ per character will be the final nail in the coffin: "we know how much KDF players pay for ships, but they just don't fly BOPs or buy ships..."
Besides I thought we were discussing based on relevant data and not based on what you think others might think to be relevant.
Because obviously everyone else in this thread seems to think using relevant data instead of your rather esoteric definition of what should be relevant makes more sense.
I'm going to need references to understand this. What have I said that was not relevant according to your definition of relevance?
Also we know how very similar most other Fleet Ships are to their non-fleet versions.
Particularly when you compare them to their T5 non-fleet counterparts.
So your criticism of the Hoh'Sus as not being different enough is based on...nothing I can identify to be honest.
The "we already have this ship available for free" argument is lost on you?
I can only fathom you want to say you would have preferred a 5th tactical console instead of the 3rd engineering console from the Hoh'SuS to the Fleet Hoh'SuS but you just don't seem to actually mention it anywhere and instead prefer to just use the word "joke" and expect everyone to know what you mean by that.
The joke, as I have stated earlier, is that the Fleet Ho'sus has been available for free since STO launched, in the form of the Hegh'ta. As I have stated earlier in this thread, giving a 5th tac console to a BoP would be a bad idea. (on a raptor on the other hand it would be good) The Ho'sus was not the topic of my thread, but got dragged into it, and I'm just saying they could have made something different from it. Not something we already have.[/QUOTE]
And (this is just an oversarvation not a criticism) you seem to want something entirely different from just about everyone else:
you want a fleet ship that is as different from the other BoPs as possible while it seems erveryone else wants something that is a reasonable extension of what we already have.
In addition you appearently see the BoP as an escort...exclusively.
Otherwise you wouldn't call anything besides what you think this ship is "strange builds" or told thissler to "get a cruiser".This is also evident in your comparison with the Defiant even though the counterpart to the Defiant and the other escorts are the Raptors.
While I can certainly appreciate the fact this is "your thread" since you opened it, there seems to be a signifficant difference in opinion what a BoP is between you and...well just about everyone else.
I don't know who these hypothetical "everyone else" are, as most people in this thread appears to understand the problem with the new fleet BoPs. I compare the BoP with the escorts for two reasons. First, this is the role it is closest to by design/layout. Second, in STO (unfortunatley) damage is king. Especially true for PvE, but also true for PvP with the exception of heal-heavy premades. And frankly, healing IS done better by cruisers. I'd be very open for a more heal/sci friendly BoP, but this would imo have to be a "heavy bop". (perhaps an idea for the Ho'sus?)
So what I think we agree on:
the way it's implemented now the Norgh does not work.
To work it needs a serious boost in hull.
And some other buff would not hurt either.
You seem to favour a turnrate of 25, I'd prefer a 10th console slot.
Where we obviously don't agree is the how.
I've read your idea however I honestly think there's no way to keep both the dual LtC slots and buff the hull to something workable.
I love the idea of two LtC slot and "the ultimate glass cannon", and I'm sure there must be some way to implement it witout breaking balance. More hull and/or shields is ofc the first step that has to be made for the Norgh to be a valid option at all. I also think the days of 3-tac-console attack ships are past us, with all the new ships getting better hull and shields. Maybe the added hull+tac-console would be enough to make the Norgh desirable? Maybe it will make it too strong? If so, other stats have to be adjusted accordingly.
Norgh vs Defiant:
Hull - 50% less
Shields - 36% less
Turnrate - 29% better
Weapons - 1 less
Consoles - 2 less Tac, one more Sci
Boff stations - One more Ltc slot, one less ensign slot.
Cloak - Battlecloak vs Regular Cloak (and we all know cloaking when in combat is certain death. Anyone who ever flew a BoP in PvP knows battlecloak is a joke)
So how does it compare? What can the Norgh do better than the defiant?
The Norgh has the same hull as the To'duj fighter, combined with the lowest shield ever seen on a BoP/Escort. It's pretty obvious this ship has to strike fast and hard, as it is not likely to survive any kind of counterattack.
So how it the Norghs ability to strike hard and fast? It has 2 tac consoles less than the new escorts, and one weapon less. This is a pretty severe disadvantage! Can the extra LtC slot make up for this? I think not. At best, it can help upgrade your HYT2 to a HYT3, or your BO2 to a BO3. Sure, this can help a little, but not as much as two extra tac consoles! Any other use of this slot would be to increase your survivability, but let's face it. It's not gonna hold up in sustained battle with THAT low hull and shields. It has too little shields to be able to take a DHC salvoe to the face, and too little hull to survive bleedthrough damage. In PvP or against NPCs, this ship is going to be the victim of countless one-shots.
So what could be done, to make the Norgh the BoP it's supposed to be? Here is my suggestion:
Survivability:
The hull is still extremely low. I increased it a little bit, to help prevent one-shot through shields. Still, it's nowhere near enough to even think about hull tanking. With the shields gone, it WILL pop. Becaue of this, I gave it a bit more shields. Still not as much as a Defiant, but enough to give it one or two more seconds of staying power. I also took away an eng console, to remove a bit of it's durability.
Damage:
I gave it a bit better turnrate. With a 20k hull, it SHOULD be able to out-turn anything in the game. I gave it a 4th tac console, to increase damage a bit. This ship is not going to stay in a fight for long periods anyway, so being able to deliver a decent amount of damage is crucial. It's still one tac console and one weapon short of a fed escort, but at least not miles behind.
This in my opinion would be a much more dynamic BoP. A ship that can actually have a chance to make a difference. Still a lot weaker than the Defiant or the Fleet AE, both in attack and defence, but at least not extremely far behind.
Just another example of PWE treating unfair to KDF compared to FED.
When i am good customer and company treats me unfair then the best thing i gotta do (after i posted my opinion in forums so the company knows the reason) its to quit the game!
Do it urself you will feel better they punish us by giving us crappy BoP's and by taking our plasma leech and sharing with the already OP MACO feds?
You punish them by not giving ur money to them anymore.
Let them have money only from feds and see if they are happy or not.
Let them see that they need us more than they thought so they take us into consideration next time.
Roach you are like a mentor to me. You learned me many things for the game without even speaking to me.(just by ur posts i read)
For an old veteran like you i believe that your words has high gravity.
Because i cant stand no more this unfair treatment to kdf side
(the new fleet ships vs the fed ones, MACO shields, Tractor pets, 3new fed ships vs 1 kdf ship and now the rumors that feds will get our plasma leeches.)
I was just thinking to quit the game for a small time initially and maybe forever if nothing changes so the company is aware that we are here and we are not slaves but customers just like the federation only that we dont whine unless they try to destroy us, wipe us completely.
So this way we will find out if the company is actually carrying to do the right and fair thing between the 2 factions and maybe keep me as a customer and as a fan of the game or it doesnt care at all they are happy with federation players only and total federation domination.
I suggest you do the same thing as me Roach.
Because i see you all this time here making posts that are correct and 100% right but the company keeps on ignoring you.
I believe you and me are just wasting our time here KDF is dead for marketing reasons and it will get even worst than it is.
So if kdf is the reason you sticked with STO then QUIT NOW AND DONT TORTURE URSELF ANYMORE.
Just another example of PWE treating unfair to KDF compared to FED.
I've never been one to complain about how Cryptic treated the KDF. It was supposed to be a PvP faction, and it has always been on equal footing wher PvP was concerned. Sure, different, but still more or less equal.
It started with the Defiant retrofit, that established itself as a marginally better escort than the Qui Raptor. This has been an object of grief to the KDF pvp'ers ever since.
But now... now the difference is becoming much more clear, and I feel like I have to chime in one the "you must hate KDF!" chanting!
I've never been one to complain about how Cryptic treated the KDF. It was supposed to be a PvP faction, and it has always been on equal footing wher PvP was concerned. Sure, different, but still more or less equal.
It started with the Defiant retrofit, that established itself as a marginally better escort than the Qui Raptor. This has been an object of grief to the KDF pvp'ers ever since.
But now... now the difference is becoming much more clear, and I feel like I have to chime in one the "you must hate KDF!" chanting!
Dunno how it was before it went f2p but since then it seems that company is favouring fed more than kdf even in pvp aspect.
Now we have reached a point where in my opinion federation is much more powerful in pvp than kdf.
They get new op ships like fed escort carrier and new free tractor pets that keep my destroyer almost constantly tractored.
When we got a bop with 16k hull its just a joke....
As a result i am getting owned against experienced feds.
And now those rumors that fed will get our plasma leech is gone make federation even more powerful than already is and this is just way to much for me to handle and i quit the game
That rumor has overpassed my thin red line i got when playing games when it comes to justice....
WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE???
Just quit the game they are showing us the exit way and thats exactly what i am gone do.
Yes PWE you have overdone it with federation love and KDF hatred!!!
Its time to pay the price now and see if this was truly ur best interest...
You masterminds MACO+leech+quad cannons+free endless tractors is domination wake up i can understand that who got only a crappy computing degree and you masterminds up there dont you see that?
Roach you are like a mentor to me. You learned me many things for the game without even speaking to me.(just by ur posts i read)
For an old veteran like you i believe that your words has high gravity.
Because i cant stand no more this unfair treatment to kdf side
(the new fleet ships vs the fed ones, MACO shields, Tractor pets, 3new fed ships vs 1 kdf ship and now the rumors that feds will get our plasma leeches.)
I was just thinking to quit the game for a small time initially and maybe forever if nothing changes so the company is aware that we are here and we are not slaves but customers just like the federation only that we dont whine unless they try to destroy us, wipe us completely.
So this way we will find out if the company is actually carrying to do the right and fair thing between the 2 factions and maybe keep me as a customer and as a fan of the game or it doesnt care at all they are happy with federation players only and total federation domination.
I suggest you do the same thing as me Roach.
Because i see you all this time here making posts that are correct and 100% right but the company keeps on ignoring you.
I believe you and me are just wasting our time here KDF is dead for marketing reasons and it will get even worst than it is.
So if kdf is the reason you sticked with STO then QUIT NOW AND DONT TORTURE URSELF ANYMORE.
I'll quit when they turn off the servers, otherwise its " Praise Kahless and pass the ammo."
Many Klingon/KDF fans quit during beta over the last minute, " The KDF will be PvP oriented..." Statement becuase they knew that things where grim for the faction.
Think how thier prescence would have helped push growth for the KDF if they had stayed?
I understand your anger and agree with it, we have been maligned often over the fed playerbase's interests, even been fed excuses that blaimed the fans for the KDF's poor showing in STO. All unfair and unwarranted.
I just can't give up though.
I'll quit when they turn off the servers, otherwise its " Praise Kahless and pass the ammo."
Many Klingon/KDF fans quit during beta over the last minute, " The KDF will be PvP oriented..." Statement becuase they knew that things where grim for the faction.
Think how thier prescence would have helped push growth for the KDF if they had stayed?
I understand your anger and agree with it, we have been maligned often over the fed playerbase's interests, even been fed excuses that blaimed the fans for the KDF's poor showing in STO. All unfair and unwarranted.
I just can't give up though.
Koi keh-less pook load.
Koi Pook beh poo
Yoch bow math bow je shuv wee
Say moach chyu may ew
Mah shoov, mah nong, ej ma choch chew
Nee beh yin mahj ach wov, coo!
Bath ma cheth bejj, ej yo keej dahk
Vaav, poo ma de, muv pa rech, ma shoov tach
Koo ma mev, ko ma shoov tach, ma ov
Translation:
Kahless' son listen
Daughters listen,
Warriors brave and loyal
The blood of battle excites them
We fight, we are passionate, and we kill perfectly
Our lives are short but very bright!
We definatly die honerably, and in the Black Fleet,
Before we join our fathers, we continue to fight, We refuse to stop the mission, we continue to fight, we complete.
Comments
I think it's an experiment on Cryptic's side to give us something different.
However in an attempt to balance the familiar maneuverability of the BoP with the second LtC slot this ship is wayyy too much of a compromise all around.
Too many weak spots for its potential flexibility.
It lacks a 10th console slot as well as hull and shields.
IMO they should redo this ship.
A lot.
My personal proposal would be to give us several BoPs that are only different in their console layout.
Keep the BO setup like we know it:
4/3/2/2.
Use the 3/3/3 console layout of the standard T5 BoP as a basis and give us 3 BoPs for now with a 4th in each category.
Make the Norgh the one with the 4th science console if you wish.
The way it's now it seems geared for support anyways.
Just make it a workable supporter instead of an overspecialized giant shuttle.
One additional model with a 4th Eng console (Hegh'ta for example? It's big enough) and we'd have a well-rounded trio at our disposal.
Just a BoP with an extra console? That's not even enough to get it in line with the current T5 escorts, like the MVAM and the Defiant. Much less with the Fleet escorts or the Jem'hadar ship.
I like the concept that Cryptic is trying to give us here, but it's flawed in 2 points imo.
1. The hull and shields are so low, that any big hit from another player, or a borg cube, will just smash it. This is even a problem with the retrofit B'rel, and that one is stronger than the Norgh. Being constantly one-shotted is no fun.
2. It does not deliver hard enough a "hit" to be a hit-n-run ship. 3 tac consoles has always been the weak point of BoPs compared to other escort-like ship. Now that many of the other ships get 5, having 3 becomes a serious disadvantage.
Ofc, the advantage of the second Ltc has to be countered, but this is an advantage that generally will take time to take advantage of, via sci abilities. And let's face it, in this ship you'll be forced to run away very fast. I think taking away one console, sci or eng, will be a sever enough advantage, putting your total console count 2 below your opponents.
I used the Fleet Hoh'0SuS as a template in this context.
It has a 4th console in the TAC department and the familiar 4/3/2/2 BO sertup.
http://www.stowiki.org/Fleet_Hoh%27SuS_Bird-of-Prey
It also has additional hull and shields.
Also don't forget that all fleet ships that are based on a T5 ship have one more console on top of an existing setup.
So giving a BoP 5 TAC consoles would require to remove one from another area even though the T5 BoPs all have 3/3/3.
It breaks the mold, not to mention we're running into the risk of creating an overlap with the Raptors.
In addition it would make sense for those who'd like to run a science in a BoP to actually have a ship with more than 3 science consoles.
Sure sure almost all this is good. Certainly, good stuff, bop is just NOT stacking up with the new fleet bases. Good idea.
Battle Cloak is not a joke. If you can't seem to make it work its likely best you just don't use a BOP. Use a raptor or something if you want the Decloak and strike. If you're a Sci kid, don't know what to tell you. Battle Cloak works.
Cheers and happy flying.
R.I.P
In hundreds and hundreds of arena matches flow in raptor, heghta and retro-brels, I have yet to see any application of the battle cloak that is superior to regular cloak used on a raptor.
In hundreds and hundreds of arena matches as a Fed, I have yet to see any BoP use battlecloak to their advantage. All I see is people who cloak early, before they have had a chance to make a difference, people who cloak too late, and does not survive it, and people who don't cloak before the last of their opponents is dead.
Sure, there are some strange builds out there, like healers and CCs, but frankly that's a waste of the BoPs killing-potential. If you wanna fly a healer, grab a cruiser, if you wanna fly a CC ship... STO is not really the game for you atm...
Anyway, let's not turn this into a Cloak vs BCloak debate, let's agree that some people see it as an advantage and some don't. Let's call it a situational advantage and move on. I'd much rather debate the other sides of the build. I'd hate for the Norgh to be a flop, but I'd also hate for it to be OP.
The difference in hull is negligable to the hegh'ta. from 24k to 24.75k the difference in shields is about 12%. The only significant difference from the Hegh'ta is the 4th tac console. The Ho'sus is a minor improvement of the Hegh'ta, and I can't see this ship being wort spending a single Zen on as it is. The least they could do would be to add 3k hull and an ensign OR a 3rd aft weapon. But this thread was about the Norgh joke, the Ho'sus Joke belongs in another thread!
The Hegh'ta is not really the ideal ship to compare it to.
The Hoh'Sus has a turnrate of 22 as opposed to the Hegh'ta's 21.
The ship to compare it to would be the B'rel, giving us an increase of 3750.
Consequently I could easily see a Fleet Hegh'ta with a turnrate of 21 something in the area of 28,000 points of hull.
But since you insist on calling this a "joke" and basically seem to consider every opinion that does not agree with yours to be not worth considering I'd better leave now.
A hair more hull, say 20k base, shields up to about par for the Qin (.83), same BOff's and one of the two following console layouts: 2 ENG / 4 SCI / 4 TAC or 1 ENG / 4 SCI / 5 TAC.
Ho'sus ought to be the better rounded bird, keep the current layout for consoles, and pick up that ENS Uni it's missing.
JM2c, and certainly not intended as iron-clad perfectly balanced suggestions. More of a starting point, really.
I call the Ho'sus a joke because it's basically the same BoP we had in game since launch. The differences are small enough for 90% of the users to not even notice. Why would I compare it to the B'rel, when it's almost identical to the Hegh'ta? I could compare it to the Vo'quv and claim it's a gamechanging concept, but really, comparing it to the closest match is more relevant... See, I'm considering your opinion and arguing against it.
I call the Norgh a joke because it's health is below what can be very easily one-shotted by other players and NPCs alike, making it unusable for any and all purposes. We already see the retro-brel balancing on this edge, so introducing a ship with far less health is an obvious fail.
I can agree with this. 5 tac consoles may be a bit out of hand though. I also doubt 4 sci is a good idea, making it too strong compared to sci ships. 2-3-4 layout would be ideal imo. It's only fair that it looses something to balance the double ltc slots.
They're still fun to fly, but when something as shoddy as the Qin Raptor becomes a viable alternative, you know something's gone wrong in BoPville.
The fact that the fleet BoPs so far seem unimpressive compared to the fleet escorts is a real shame. However, aside from cruisers, the KDF seems to have done worse over all with the fleet ships.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
You're comparing the Norgh to the Defiant, not the Hegh'ta.
So you're not comparing with the closest match.
Besides I thought we were discussing based on relevant data and not based on what you think others might think to be relevant.
Because obviously everyone else in this thread seems to think using relevant data instead of your rather esoteric definition of what should be relevant makes more sense.
Also we know how very similar most other Fleet Ships are to their non-fleet versions.
Particularly when you compare them to their T5 non-fleet counterparts.
So your criticism of the Hoh'Sus as not being different enough is based on...nothing I can identify to be honest.
I can only fathom you want to say you would have preferred a 5th tactical console instead of the 3rd engineering console from the Hoh'SuS to the Fleet Hoh'SuS but you just don't seem to actually mention it anywhere and instead prefer to just use the word "joke" and expect everyone to know what you mean by that.
And (this is just an oversarvation not a criticism) you seem to want something entirely different from just about everyone else:
you want a fleet ship that is as different from the other BoPs as possible while it seems erveryone else wants something that is a reasonable extension of what we already have.
In addition you appearently see the BoP as an escort...exclusively.
Otherwise you wouldn't call anything besides what you think this ship is "strange builds" or told thissler to "get a cruiser".
This is also evident in your comparison with the Defiant even though the counterpart to the Defiant and the other escorts are the Raptors.
While I can certainly appreciate the fact this is "your thread" since you opened it, there seems to be a signifficant difference in opinion what a BoP is between you and...well just about everyone else.
So what I think we agree on:
the way it's implemented now the Norgh does not work.
To work it needs a serious boost in hull.
And some other buff would not hurt either.
You seem to favour a turnrate of 25, I'd prefer a 10th console slot.
Where we obviously don't agree is the how.
I've read your idea however I honestly think there's no way to keep both the dual LtC slots and buff the hull to something workable.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I compared the Ho'sus to the Hegh'ta, to show that they're basically indentical.
I'm going to need references to understand this. What have I said that was not relevant according to your definition of relevance?
The "we already have this ship available for free" argument is lost on you?
The joke, as I have stated earlier, is that the Fleet Ho'sus has been available for free since STO launched, in the form of the Hegh'ta. As I have stated earlier in this thread, giving a 5th tac console to a BoP would be a bad idea. (on a raptor on the other hand it would be good) The Ho'sus was not the topic of my thread, but got dragged into it, and I'm just saying they could have made something different from it. Not something we already have.[/QUOTE]
I don't know who these hypothetical "everyone else" are, as most people in this thread appears to understand the problem with the new fleet BoPs. I compare the BoP with the escorts for two reasons. First, this is the role it is closest to by design/layout. Second, in STO (unfortunatley) damage is king. Especially true for PvE, but also true for PvP with the exception of heal-heavy premades. And frankly, healing IS done better by cruisers. I'd be very open for a more heal/sci friendly BoP, but this would imo have to be a "heavy bop". (perhaps an idea for the Ho'sus?)
I love the idea of two LtC slot and "the ultimate glass cannon", and I'm sure there must be some way to implement it witout breaking balance. More hull and/or shields is ofc the first step that has to be made for the Norgh to be a valid option at all. I also think the days of 3-tac-console attack ships are past us, with all the new ships getting better hull and shields. Maybe the added hull+tac-console would be enough to make the Norgh desirable? Maybe it will make it too strong? If so, other stats have to be adjusted accordingly.
TT1 HY1 CRF2 ApO3
TT1 BO2 ApO1
EPTS1 RSP1 EPTS3
TSS1 TSS2
A STRAIGHT SHIELD TANKER?
R.I.P
Well unless you are a PVE'er anyway who cares about stats than.
I'd like that. I'd even be willing to sacrifice both aft slots for it. Still, the low hull has to be fixed.
Still, it needs more hull to work with. 16.5k is low enough to be one-shot through the shields.
surely, ships like the patrol and tactical escorts are a clear improvement over existing escorts? and also some of the KDF cruisers?
If you said all KDF fleet bops and raptors are jokes, i'd agree...
yOU'LL GET NO ARGUEMENT FROM ME.
R.I.P
Just another example of PWE treating unfair to KDF compared to FED.
When i am good customer and company treats me unfair then the best thing i gotta do (after i posted my opinion in forums so the company knows the reason) its to quit the game!
Do it urself you will feel better they punish us by giving us crappy BoP's and by taking our plasma leech and sharing with the already OP MACO feds?
You punish them by not giving ur money to them anymore.
Let them have money only from feds and see if they are happy or not.
Let them see that they need us more than they thought so they take us into consideration next time.
Adios
Roach you are like a mentor to me. You learned me many things for the game without even speaking to me.(just by ur posts i read)
For an old veteran like you i believe that your words has high gravity.
Because i cant stand no more this unfair treatment to kdf side
(the new fleet ships vs the fed ones, MACO shields, Tractor pets, 3new fed ships vs 1 kdf ship and now the rumors that feds will get our plasma leeches.)
I was just thinking to quit the game for a small time initially and maybe forever if nothing changes so the company is aware that we are here and we are not slaves but customers just like the federation only that we dont whine unless they try to destroy us, wipe us completely.
So this way we will find out if the company is actually carrying to do the right and fair thing between the 2 factions and maybe keep me as a customer and as a fan of the game or it doesnt care at all they are happy with federation players only and total federation domination.
I suggest you do the same thing as me Roach.
Because i see you all this time here making posts that are correct and 100% right but the company keeps on ignoring you.
I believe you and me are just wasting our time here KDF is dead for marketing reasons and it will get even worst than it is.
So if kdf is the reason you sticked with STO then QUIT NOW AND DONT TORTURE URSELF ANYMORE.
I've never been one to complain about how Cryptic treated the KDF. It was supposed to be a PvP faction, and it has always been on equal footing wher PvP was concerned. Sure, different, but still more or less equal.
It started with the Defiant retrofit, that established itself as a marginally better escort than the Qui Raptor. This has been an object of grief to the KDF pvp'ers ever since.
But now... now the difference is becoming much more clear, and I feel like I have to chime in one the "you must hate KDF!" chanting!
Dunno how it was before it went f2p but since then it seems that company is favouring fed more than kdf even in pvp aspect.
Now we have reached a point where in my opinion federation is much more powerful in pvp than kdf.
They get new op ships like fed escort carrier and new free tractor pets that keep my destroyer almost constantly tractored.
When we got a bop with 16k hull its just a joke....
As a result i am getting owned against experienced feds.
And now those rumors that fed will get our plasma leech is gone make federation even more powerful than already is and this is just way to much for me to handle and i quit the game
That rumor has overpassed my thin red line i got when playing games when it comes to justice....
WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE???
Just quit the game they are showing us the exit way and thats exactly what i am gone do.
Yes PWE you have overdone it with federation love and KDF hatred!!!
Its time to pay the price now and see if this was truly ur best interest...
You masterminds MACO+leech+quad cannons+free endless tractors is domination wake up i can understand that who got only a crappy computing degree and you masterminds up there dont you see that?
I'll quit when they turn off the servers, otherwise its " Praise Kahless and pass the ammo."
Many Klingon/KDF fans quit during beta over the last minute, " The KDF will be PvP oriented..." Statement becuase they knew that things where grim for the faction.
Think how thier prescence would have helped push growth for the KDF if they had stayed?
I understand your anger and agree with it, we have been maligned often over the fed playerbase's interests, even been fed excuses that blaimed the fans for the KDF's poor showing in STO. All unfair and unwarranted.
I just can't give up though.
R.I.P
I am here brother, by your side!
Klingon War Song
Qoy qeylIs puqloD
Qoy puqbe'pu'
yoHbogh malthbogh je' SuvwI'
Sey'moHchu' may' 'Iw
maSuv manong 'ej maHoHchu'
nI'be'yInmaj 'ach wovqu'!
batlh maHghbej'jyoqIjDaq
vavpu'ma' DImuvpa'reH maSuvtaH
Qu' DamevQo' maSuvtaH, ma'ov
Pronounciation:
Koi keh-less pook load.
Koi Pook beh poo
Yoch bow math bow je shuv wee
Say moach chyu may ew
Mah shoov, mah nong, ej ma choch chew
Nee beh yin mahj ach wov, coo!
Bath ma cheth bejj, ej yo keej dahk
Vaav, poo ma de, muv pa rech, ma shoov tach
Koo ma mev, ko ma shoov tach, ma ov
Translation:
Kahless' son listen
Daughters listen,
Warriors brave and loyal
The blood of battle excites them
We fight, we are passionate, and we kill perfectly
Our lives are short but very bright!
We definatly die honerably, and in the Black Fleet,
Before we join our fathers, we continue to fight,
We refuse to stop the mission, we continue to fight, we complete.
R.I.P