I think you're greatly exagerating. Out of 10 elite STFs I do 6 end up with a successful optional. This means a few thousand extra ECs for crappy items and maybe some salvage. I'm well beyond caring. If you want your optionals open up a private group. Don't do PUGs.
^ this
I've not being in a KASE or ISE PUG that failed the mission for a very, very long time now. Simply put bringing a friend or fleetmate with you for a "partial PUG" goes a long way to guaranteeing mission completion for everyone.
The missions are so linear and scripted that it's easy to spot "something is going wrong" from way across the map and take the necessary action to point out the effects of incompetence or sabotage.
For CSE it's a no brainer, run it with people you know and people you know have guaranteed DPS ability and you will win it. PUG at own risk - the same goes for all other STFs, ground and space.
I don't believe NOOBs or PUGs to be targets for blame - the question is, can you yourself pack on enough excess DPS or CC ability to guarantee mission completion in worst-case scenario teams? Can you eat humble pie, gather 1 or 2 of the so-called newbies, instruct them in STF advanced tactics, review their gear and lead them as a team on a successful STF career?
That's the reason why I run PUG ESTFs on a daily basis (yes, CSE included). I play PUG not for the 'perfect Optional' but as an exercise in crisis management. Plus, it's when things are going down the gutter that people start to appreciate teamwork, especially when it's always that one out of five minority that insists on TRIBBLE up the map deliberately for others, or refuses to collaborate and dies 500x on ground, etc.
Make use of those 'public examples' to develop 3 other future squad leaders. Whining doesn't solve any problems.
And if people insist on passing blame to supposed 'noobs', their loss. I see new players and especially new players with prior wargaming or MMO experience to be major assets to a future STO community and they comprise 100% of my fleet's population.
These are the people, numbering less than a dozen, who planned for and constructed a Tier II starbase in a month, which as I heard is the same speed expected from a 100-man fleet.
Noobs my foot.
STF Flight Instructor since Early 2012. Newbies are the reason why STO lives and breathes today. Do not discriminate.
Nothing stops you from doing elite with a team. Why shouldn't others have the option of doing it with a PUG?
I prefer to roll with PUGs. If I join a PUG queue, I take my chances. If I want to take my chances with a PUG, thats my choice.
All your suggestion would accomplish is make queues harder to pop and increase all the ppl in zone chat crying for a team.
Dumb idea, all the way around.
I fully agree. You have the CHOICE to go in as a group or go with PUGs. If you CHOOSE to go in with PUGs then you deal with the consequences of your CHOICE.
If STO starts to remove these choices that we (as free thinking and supposedly intelligent individuals) have then the game we love starts to become more and more limited. I vote no for that.
If it really bothers you that much, then don't play the game. Pure and simple.
I fully agree. You have the CHOICE to go in as a group or go with PUGs. If you CHOOSE to go in with PUGs then you deal with the consequences of your CHOICE.
The thing that bothers me is that some people want to have that choice, but then don't want to deal with the consquences of it. Instead, they come on here complaining about PuGs and demanding things like mission gating etc. to fix their problem for them.
And on a personal level I don't understand how Cryptic can on one hand say that Elite STFs aren't intended for PuGs and on the other have them in the public PvE queue.
To be clear, I'm not talking about AFKing or forms of griefing and trolling. Those are legitimate issues that Cryptic should be dealing with, and I don't think it's unreasonable for people to expect PuGs to be at least attempting to play the game.
I'm talking about people complaining that PuG players plain aren't good enough for their standards and then wanting Cryptic to implement some arbitrary requirement to try and alleviate the issue. Ie. there's a difference between 'man I was in a seriously **** PuG yesterday, Rainbow Beams everywhere' and 'people who haven't done x, y and z shouldn't be allowed in Fleet Actions / STFs / Whatever :mad:'
i love new players , they eventually end up subscribing or buying zen for bits and pieces which means sto survives . i didnt agree with the game f2p , but claiming all f2p are bads is NONESENSE
you all asked for stf queues awile ago and cryptic caved in and introduced them , i liked when i had to check my friends list to do stuff , queues do detach you from the community but whats done is done , live with it or quit .
Don't PUG elites if you expect to finish the mission.
Play with your fleet members, your friend list buddies, or use your STF channel. I use EliteSTF because it's moderated (they really do moderate it, I see the mods on there a lot of the time). And the issue of noobs and stuff... unfortunately (and I hope everyone in this thread reads and understands this) the term noob is overused, misused, and abused far too much. People who make too many typos get labeled as noobs. People who aren't dressed up in mk xii MACO/Honor Guard/Omega are labeled as noobs. People who make a mistake or misunderstand someone are labeled as noobs. People who are new to the game and don't have the ec to buy one energy type of weapons are labeled as noobs. I was in an elite STF through the EliteSTF channel yesterday (no names will be mentioned here) and I had set up the mission. Before I stared it I went over the strategy (it was CSE) and clearly stated "the order is mrrmll" . During the STF, I noticed one person had gone off by themselves to kill the right probes. The other three of us (one person was guarding the Kang of course) had destroyed the middle probes about the time this other guy blew the right cube. I was surprised he could take out all the gens by himself in an atrox on one side, but I was a little angry he hadn't followed my orders and not gone with the team. So I asked him why he went off to the right when I stated the order for this game was mrrmll. He said something like, "I've only seen two game suse mrrmll it sucks RML is best." And I told him that mrrmll is more efficient and that I've only seen one RML. Now back to the whole point here... he said to me after that, "whatever you say noob." Now I am a F2Per but I have been in the game for months and I have been running STFs for a long time, I am certainly not a noob.
What I'm saying is that everyone calls everyone else who doesn't have a veteran symbol on their status or they are in mk xii STf gear a noob. So people (everyone here) don't call anyone else a noob because they're a F2P or because you have something they don't.
And on a personal level I don't understand how Cryptic can on one hand say that Elite STFs aren't intended for PuGs and on the other have them in the public PvE queue.
I didn't know they said Elite wasn't intended for PUGs. I'm glad you can PUG Elite as that's the only way I ever enter STFs. I'm not a big MMO player but I play STO because I love Trek.
On an aside, sure, if someone ruins a bonus objective it's a bit hard, but if the outcome of a game is never in doubt, then what's the point in playing it?
Is it possible to create to diifferent server or instances? Or to block some missions until the player got lets say 5000 accolade points? Or block the elite missions until a player got an accolade like "the medal of honor" or "silverstar" to show other temmates "Hi I know the mechanics of the game!?
Not sure the 5000 acc. points is a good way to judge a players ability. I've been f2p since march or april. I have 5 level 50 toons deleted 1.My fed toon has 6600 acc.pnts. and my kdf toon has 4290. I still feel like I'm in the dark about the majority of mechanics of the game.As I told one person a third grader probably knows more about this stuff than I do.lol This is the first game of this type I've played [unless the 2 months of battle pirates counts].I have played a few stfs, some went ok some didn't.One of the main reasons I don't do more stfs is because I don't want to be the one who kept somebodyelse from acheiving the goal. That being said I have to agree with the people who said to not use the puq if you don't like the way the missions go. I think the puq is a necessary part of game for players like myself who for the most part want to play but don't want the pressure of a fleet telling them what mission they shoud be taking part in.I don't know how often that happens, it's just an assumption on my part.However after reading through this thread I think I have found a fleet that I may check out.
Personally I think people need to remember this is just game.I can understand the frustrations that come with it.But let it go when it happens.
And on a side note I upgraded to gold membership yesterday,I was quite dissapointed that there was no fanfare or fireworks when I logged back in to the game LOL.
First I have to say, that I play STO since the open beta. I have a Lifetime subscription and play in a fleet.
I never had a problem with new players. I would call those players "newbies". They are new to the game, but they are willing to listen and learn from old veteran players.
Since the change to F2P STO got a new kind of players, the NOOBS. The NOOBS are players, who ruin the gameplay, either but not listen to the advices of veteran players or by acting like "I am Mr. Superheroe. No one can beat me. Oh help help I died!!!"
Those players have ruined the fun. It is near impossible to play an STF with a random group since STO got F2P. Either you have one NOOB in your team who risks every players life or a veteran who leaves the game when a noob ruined the optional. In both ways it makes no longer fun to play STF missions.
Today I saw another problem: BOTs. I played the mission "Colony Invasion" fivetimes. I saw the Player "Pille" fourtimes. He must be some kind of Bot. He just stayed at the beginning point, did not interact. So without his help our now four player team failed to get most of the optionals.
So dear cryptic team:
PLEASE do something. I know you need the F2P players, but you also need old veterans like myself, players who support the game from the beginning. I know that I am not alone with this. MANY players are angry about the new NOOB problem.
Is it possible to create to diifferent server or instances? Or to block some missions until the player got lets say 5000 accolade points? Or block the elite missions until a player got an accolade like "the medal of honor" or "silverstar" to show other temmates "Hi I know the mechanics of the game!?
well... the only problem is you neighbor by your post.
"...you catch more flies with honey then you do with vinegar..."
Some words of wisdom that you and some others may want to take to heart. Next time try something simple...
Its called communication. ASK before everything starts... "Hey team, just checking, everyone knows how to do this on X setting? If not, please let us know we will happily teach you as we go along."
It is amazing just how easy it is to get others to work with you just by excercising a simple thing called manners.
Understand something, someone taught you how to do it, so time to pay that back. If you do not wish to, hey, that is fine, your choice. However do not expect those of us who are old timers who taught hundreds how to do the STF's from the word go...
So, here is your chance to go be someone's Hero. Don't blow it.
I never had a problem with new players. I would call those players "newbies". They are new to the game, but they are willing to listen and learn from old veteran players.
still the same pointless flaming if you not like random teams dont do it.
you can make missions with your friends or your fleet if you have nothing of them your fail.
i love nuub pug or whatever you call it teams, that makes the nuuby missions little bit hard on other way the missions all boring and a 100% rofl garantee no other mission gives.:D
and for anyone who is perm trolling about random mission is the real nuub;)
they ruin the stf's i just did a joke a marathon infected space normal because trol went over to second gen dobouble nanites 2 quit
I do not getthe ignorence of these people they are going to do nothing about it
I am fed up withese people in the STF's they are brutal
same here I am confused why they don't listen to us oldtimers of the game
same here I am confused why they don't listen to us oldtimers of the game
I can't say I'm surprised people don't listen.
First, whether you call yourself experienced, oldtimer, expert, elite, or whatever -- how can other people who don't know you tell that you are what you say you are?
As others have pointed out, being VA or LTS doesn't automatically make you an expert, or elite, and might not even mean you've been around for a long time. A lot of people who aren't experts call themselves that anyway.
Second, experienced players don't always agree on the best way to do things.
It might surprise you, but I hear that there are a lot of people calling themselves experts on these forums who don't agree with each other on how to play the game.
Third, it matters very much how an "expert" gives out information.
If a player gives an order instead of advice or direction, some people are going to take offense.
If a player comes off as acting superior, other players are going to balk.
If a player uses insults or 'fighting words', he's just making the other player mad.
Fourth, some people are just plain stubborn and prickly and don't like feeling that they're being ordered around even if that wasn't the intention. You can't do much to help those people.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
First, whether you call yourself experienced, oldtimer, expert, elite, or whatever -- how can other people who don't know you tell that you are what you say you are?
As others have pointed out, being VA or LTS doesn't automatically make you an expert, or elite, and might not even mean you've been around for a long time. A lot of people who aren't experts call themselves that anyway.
Second, experienced players don't always agree on the best way to do things.
It might surprise you, but I hear that there are a lot of people calling themselves experts on these forums who don't agree with each other on how to play the game.
Third, it matters very much how an "expert" gives out information.
If a player gives an order instead of advice or direction, some people are going to take offense.
If a player comes off as acting superior, other players are going to balk.
If a player uses insults or 'fighting words', he's just making the other player mad.
Fourth, some people are just plain stubborn and prickly and don't like feeling that they're being ordered around even if that wasn't the intention. You can't do much to help those people.
^ This is the reason why, if I want to influence the course of an Elite STF, I do not give orders.
I ask people what is the strategy they have in mind. I offer leadership to PUGs who seem to know what they're doing. I fly on their wing and we destroy the enemy as one unified team. Focus fire on THEIR targets so they get popped faster, saving everyone time. People get the visual message very fast!
That's how you make friends in PUGs and in time that's how I got my very own Elite STF capable fleet to command.
Everyone says yeah, they got their chat windows closed. No hope of collaboration.
But really all you need is one Extend Shields or Hazard Emitter at the right time to create magic out of a simple "doomed to fail" PUG game. Typing walls of text in team... not required.
STF Flight Instructor since Early 2012. Newbies are the reason why STO lives and breathes today. Do not discriminate.
I do have one other comment to make about experienced players using canned approaches to running missions.
If you do the same thing every single time you run a certain mission, with the same gear and the same tactics, you probably do have a good system that gets results. You should certainly share what works for you.
But you also may not be trying new things and maybe finding a tactic that works even better. You may know a lot of tactics that don't work, but you probably don't know everything that does work unless you've tried them all, in every combination.
I agree that PUGs can get really ugly sometimes. But when something rare, unexpected, and cool happens, there's nothing more satisfying.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I didn't know they said Elite wasn't intended for PUGs. I'm glad you can PUG Elite as that's the only way I ever enter STFs. I'm not a big MMO player but I play STO because I love Trek.
On an aside, sure, if someone ruins a bonus objective it's a bit hard, but if the outcome of a game is never in doubt, then what's the point in playing it?
I'm almost certain there was an thread a while back about Elite STFs being too hard for PuGs in which either Gozer or Borticus (probably Gozer) said that they're not intended to be easy enough for PuGs to do them. I can't find it now, though, since it was pre PWE forums and everyone will be called "Archived Post"
Of course, the reality is, you can PuG them. If you happen to get 5 people who have a good grasp of the tactics and a competent build, that is. But you won't need to have played with each other before or have constant tactical instructions in chat.
I do have one other comment to make about experienced players using canned approaches to running missions.
If you do the same thing every single time you run a certain mission, with the same gear and the same tactics, you probably do have a good system that gets results. You should certainly share what works for you.
But you also may not be trying new things and maybe finding a tactic that works even better. You may know a lot of tactics that don't work, but you probably don't know everything that does work unless you've tried them all, in every combination.
I agree that PUGs can get really ugly sometimes. But when something rare, unexpected, and cool happens, there's nothing more satisfying.
I seem to recall a time or two in CoH where there were strategies that worked for Hamidon, where the devs said "there's another one that's much faster, but none of you have figured it out yet".
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
Comments
^ this
I've not being in a KASE or ISE PUG that failed the mission for a very, very long time now. Simply put bringing a friend or fleetmate with you for a "partial PUG" goes a long way to guaranteeing mission completion for everyone.
The missions are so linear and scripted that it's easy to spot "something is going wrong" from way across the map and take the necessary action to point out the effects of incompetence or sabotage.
For CSE it's a no brainer, run it with people you know and people you know have guaranteed DPS ability and you will win it. PUG at own risk - the same goes for all other STFs, ground and space.
I don't believe NOOBs or PUGs to be targets for blame - the question is, can you yourself pack on enough excess DPS or CC ability to guarantee mission completion in worst-case scenario teams? Can you eat humble pie, gather 1 or 2 of the so-called newbies, instruct them in STF advanced tactics, review their gear and lead them as a team on a successful STF career?
That's the reason why I run PUG ESTFs on a daily basis (yes, CSE included). I play PUG not for the 'perfect Optional' but as an exercise in crisis management. Plus, it's when things are going down the gutter that people start to appreciate teamwork, especially when it's always that one out of five minority that insists on TRIBBLE up the map deliberately for others, or refuses to collaborate and dies 500x on ground, etc.
Make use of those 'public examples' to develop 3 other future squad leaders. Whining doesn't solve any problems.
And if people insist on passing blame to supposed 'noobs', their loss. I see new players and especially new players with prior wargaming or MMO experience to be major assets to a future STO community and they comprise 100% of my fleet's population.
These are the people, numbering less than a dozen, who planned for and constructed a Tier II starbase in a month, which as I heard is the same speed expected from a 100-man fleet.
Noobs my foot.
My Youtube Channel
Kind Regards
I fully agree. You have the CHOICE to go in as a group or go with PUGs. If you CHOOSE to go in with PUGs then you deal with the consequences of your CHOICE.
If STO starts to remove these choices that we (as free thinking and supposedly intelligent individuals) have then the game we love starts to become more and more limited. I vote no for that.
If it really bothers you that much, then don't play the game. Pure and simple.
The thing that bothers me is that some people want to have that choice, but then don't want to deal with the consquences of it. Instead, they come on here complaining about PuGs and demanding things like mission gating etc. to fix their problem for them.
And on a personal level I don't understand how Cryptic can on one hand say that Elite STFs aren't intended for PuGs and on the other have them in the public PvE queue.
To be clear, I'm not talking about AFKing or forms of griefing and trolling. Those are legitimate issues that Cryptic should be dealing with, and I don't think it's unreasonable for people to expect PuGs to be at least attempting to play the game.
I'm talking about people complaining that PuG players plain aren't good enough for their standards and then wanting Cryptic to implement some arbitrary requirement to try and alleviate the issue. Ie. there's a difference between 'man I was in a seriously **** PuG yesterday, Rainbow Beams everywhere' and 'people who haven't done x, y and z shouldn't be allowed in Fleet Actions / STFs / Whatever :mad:'
you all asked for stf queues awile ago and cryptic caved in and introduced them , i liked when i had to check my friends list to do stuff , queues do detach you from the community but whats done is done , live with it or quit .
Don't PUG elites if you expect to finish the mission.
Play with your fleet members, your friend list buddies, or use your STF channel. I use EliteSTF because it's moderated (they really do moderate it, I see the mods on there a lot of the time). And the issue of noobs and stuff... unfortunately (and I hope everyone in this thread reads and understands this) the term noob is overused, misused, and abused far too much. People who make too many typos get labeled as noobs. People who aren't dressed up in mk xii MACO/Honor Guard/Omega are labeled as noobs. People who make a mistake or misunderstand someone are labeled as noobs. People who are new to the game and don't have the ec to buy one energy type of weapons are labeled as noobs. I was in an elite STF through the EliteSTF channel yesterday (no names will be mentioned here) and I had set up the mission. Before I stared it I went over the strategy (it was CSE) and clearly stated "the order is mrrmll" . During the STF, I noticed one person had gone off by themselves to kill the right probes. The other three of us (one person was guarding the Kang of course) had destroyed the middle probes about the time this other guy blew the right cube. I was surprised he could take out all the gens by himself in an atrox on one side, but I was a little angry he hadn't followed my orders and not gone with the team. So I asked him why he went off to the right when I stated the order for this game was mrrmll. He said something like, "I've only seen two game suse mrrmll it sucks RML is best." And I told him that mrrmll is more efficient and that I've only seen one RML. Now back to the whole point here... he said to me after that, "whatever you say noob." Now I am a F2Per but I have been in the game for months and I have been running STFs for a long time, I am certainly not a noob.
What I'm saying is that everyone calls everyone else who doesn't have a veteran symbol on their status or they are in mk xii STf gear a noob. So people (everyone here) don't call anyone else a noob because they're a F2P or because you have something they don't.
I didn't know they said Elite wasn't intended for PUGs. I'm glad you can PUG Elite as that's the only way I ever enter STFs. I'm not a big MMO player but I play STO because I love Trek.
On an aside, sure, if someone ruins a bonus objective it's a bit hard, but if the outcome of a game is never in doubt, then what's the point in playing it?
Not sure the 5000 acc. points is a good way to judge a players ability. I've been f2p since march or april. I have 5 level 50 toons deleted 1.My fed toon has 6600 acc.pnts. and my kdf toon has 4290. I still feel like I'm in the dark about the majority of mechanics of the game.As I told one person a third grader probably knows more about this stuff than I do.lol This is the first game of this type I've played [unless the 2 months of battle pirates counts].I have played a few stfs, some went ok some didn't.One of the main reasons I don't do more stfs is because I don't want to be the one who kept somebodyelse from acheiving the goal. That being said I have to agree with the people who said to not use the puq if you don't like the way the missions go. I think the puq is a necessary part of game for players like myself who for the most part want to play but don't want the pressure of a fleet telling them what mission they shoud be taking part in.I don't know how often that happens, it's just an assumption on my part.However after reading through this thread I think I have found a fleet that I may check out.
Personally I think people need to remember this is just game.I can understand the frustrations that come with it.But let it go when it happens.
And on a side note I upgraded to gold membership yesterday,I was quite dissapointed that there was no fanfare or fireworks when I logged back in to the game LOL.
well... the only problem is you neighbor by your post.
"...you catch more flies with honey then you do with vinegar..."
Some words of wisdom that you and some others may want to take to heart. Next time try something simple...
Its called communication. ASK before everything starts... "Hey team, just checking, everyone knows how to do this on X setting? If not, please let us know we will happily teach you as we go along."
It is amazing just how easy it is to get others to work with you just by excercising a simple thing called manners.
Understand something, someone taught you how to do it, so time to pay that back. If you do not wish to, hey, that is fine, your choice. However do not expect those of us who are old timers who taught hundreds how to do the STF's from the word go...
So, here is your chance to go be someone's Hero. Don't blow it.
And veterans were never new or learnt from ....?
still the same pointless flaming if you not like random teams dont do it.
you can make missions with your friends or your fleet if you have nothing of them your fail.
i love nuub pug or whatever you call it teams, that makes the nuuby missions little bit hard on other way the missions all boring and a 100% rofl garantee no other mission gives.:D
and for anyone who is perm trolling about random mission is the real nuub;)
I do not getthe ignorence of these people they are going to do nothing about it
I am fed up withese people in the STF's they are brutal
same here I am confused why they don't listen to us oldtimers of the game
Not sure how you dealt with it, but I can say this much for sure...
If you start off with "Look you stupid n00b!" no one is going to bother listening to a thing you have to say.
I can't say I'm surprised people don't listen.
First, whether you call yourself experienced, oldtimer, expert, elite, or whatever -- how can other people who don't know you tell that you are what you say you are?
As others have pointed out, being VA or LTS doesn't automatically make you an expert, or elite, and might not even mean you've been around for a long time. A lot of people who aren't experts call themselves that anyway.
Second, experienced players don't always agree on the best way to do things.
It might surprise you, but I hear that there are a lot of people calling themselves experts on these forums who don't agree with each other on how to play the game.
Third, it matters very much how an "expert" gives out information.
Fourth, some people are just plain stubborn and prickly and don't like feeling that they're being ordered around even if that wasn't the intention. You can't do much to help those people.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
^ This is the reason why, if I want to influence the course of an Elite STF, I do not give orders.
I ask people what is the strategy they have in mind. I offer leadership to PUGs who seem to know what they're doing. I fly on their wing and we destroy the enemy as one unified team. Focus fire on THEIR targets so they get popped faster, saving everyone time. People get the visual message very fast!
That's how you make friends in PUGs and in time that's how I got my very own Elite STF capable fleet to command.
Everyone says yeah, they got their chat windows closed. No hope of collaboration.
But really all you need is one Extend Shields or Hazard Emitter at the right time to create magic out of a simple "doomed to fail" PUG game. Typing walls of text in team... not required.
My Youtube Channel
If you do the same thing every single time you run a certain mission, with the same gear and the same tactics, you probably do have a good system that gets results. You should certainly share what works for you.
But you also may not be trying new things and maybe finding a tactic that works even better. You may know a lot of tactics that don't work, but you probably don't know everything that does work unless you've tried them all, in every combination.
I agree that PUGs can get really ugly sometimes. But when something rare, unexpected, and cool happens, there's nothing more satisfying.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I'm almost certain there was an thread a while back about Elite STFs being too hard for PuGs in which either Gozer or Borticus (probably Gozer) said that they're not intended to be easy enough for PuGs to do them. I can't find it now, though, since it was pre PWE forums and everyone will be called "Archived Post"
Of course, the reality is, you can PuG them. If you happen to get 5 people who have a good grasp of the tactics and a competent build, that is. But you won't need to have played with each other before or have constant tactical instructions in chat.
I seem to recall a time or two in CoH where there were strategies that worked for Hamidon, where the devs said "there's another one that's much faster, but none of you have figured it out yet".