PUGs are PUGs. They don't know what they're doing in any other MMORPG either. Or MMOanything, for that matter.
It's really more of a communication issue. That's the real reason PUG's fail.
Players get too busy mashing buttons to stop and think about the other players around them. By the time Player A types three letters in chat, Player B has rushed ahead and aggroed a whole mob.
If the group had good communication, I bet even an inexperienced group could have a good time and still beat a scenario. Or at least learn from it for the next time.
In an MMO where there's no guarantee voicechat is available, effective, and usable by everyone, we should be regrouping every now and then to make sure everyone is healed up, understands what's going on, and is ready to go. And that especially includes the newbies.
If somebody won't stop to listen, the correct response is for the rest of the group to calmly retreat to a safe distance, let the soloist get ko'ed, and then calmly get his attention as he's respawning to let him know that was a bad idea.
What normally happens instead is, everyone says "oh, no" and follows "Mr. Light Brigade" in, knowing they're all going to die but they do it anyhow.
I'll be a good sport and charge in the first couple of times, but after that I'm going to go into survival mode. Then, while everybody's waiting to respawn or get resuscitated, I'm going to have a golden opportunity to express my opinion of that tactic.
Them who can be educated will get it. Them who can't, I know to avoid later.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
You can't restrict access to a chat channel with ranks. It doesn't work that way. The only way to verify if everyone in the channel was a vice admiral would be to get their info, which you can't do from the channel. You have to be on the same map they are so you can click on them. You can't just ask people; they'll just lie.
Granted you'd find out once you teamed up, but then your channel isn't working the way you want it to.
RE "under 5000 accolade makes you a newbie": I've been playing since January. I know the game fairly well. I know how all the space STFs run (I don't do ground STFs if I can avoid them because I don't like them). I have two vice admiral characters, one of whom has completed the game. The other is very close to completing it. Neither has 5000 accolade points. One has somewhere between 4000 and 5000; I don't remember where the other one is.
Seven months I've been playing the game, and you'd call me a newbie just because of my accolade points. That's why accolades are not an accurate measure of a player's worth or experience.
In the past, they've solved this problem by having volunteer community moderators. I know, because I was one of them, for their official IRC channel when it existed.
Since they have volunteer forum moderators, and a chat channel system, it's a short stretch to having volunteer chat channel moderators.
Volunteer forum moderators are one thing; it's not time-sensitive and they can moderate throughout the day as they have time. You'd need chat moderators on at least during every peak period. Doable, but not without its own challenges.
You can't restrict access to a chat channel with ranks. It doesn't work that way.
Thanks for bringing that up.
Technically, we can suppose that Cryptic could build in that functionality... but I can't see them doing it even if it's technically possible, which it might not be.
Normally a moderated chat channel is by invitation only. That's one way I suppose.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Nothing stops you from doing elite with a team. Why shouldn't others have the option of doing it with a PUG?
I prefer to roll with PUGs. If I join a PUG queue, I take my chances. If I want to take my chances with a PUG, thats my choice.
All your suggestion would accomplish is make queues harder to pop and increase all the ppl in zone chat crying for a team.
Dumb idea, all the way around.
I agree.
/char
__________________________________
STO Forum member since before February 2010. STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
No argument from me, either. We don't need to be gating players out of the game over it, not even Elite STF's.
PUGs are always going to be hit-and-miss. That's just the nature of the beast. You won't find (or make) the good players without teaming up with people you don't know at least once.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
No argument from me, either. We don't need to be gating players out of the game over it, not even Elite STF's.
PUGs are always going to be hit-and-miss. That's just the nature of the beast. You won't find (or make) the good players without teaming up with people you don't know at least once.
This.
Leave the gated content to the hairy midgets and the ewoks.
You probably told your kids to never trust strangers, it'd be wise to heed the same advice... just in spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace.
Especially if they're offering you Tholian candy in an Orb Weaver Van.
In an MMO where there's no guarantee voicechat is available, effective, and usable by everyone, we should be regrouping every now and then to make sure everyone is healed up, understands what's going on, and is ready to go. And that especially includes the newbies.
Except, for like Elite STF where time is a factor, you can't re-group and have a little chat :rolleyes:
im suggesting ONE official channel for VA's only for Elite STFS
one controlled , moderated channel that would become the ONLY place you would form a team
This wouldn't actually accomplish anything that the existing unofficial channels already do, and in fact would likely be less effective at it.
Nothing is stopping someone from joining that chan and going AFK or doing something stupid in the STF. Seeing how it's an official channel means you can't be banned from it unless you break the ToS, and being dumb in a STF is not against the ToS.
So no, this wouldn't actually accomplish anything because it wouldn't do what it's intended to do.
Also there's no way PWE is going to pay to have people moderate the chan 24/7. Volunteer mods won't work, because I don't believe there's any way PWE would give volunteers mod rights to a public official chan.
Except, for like Elite STF where time is a factor, you can't re-group and have a little chat :rolleyes:
I've never run an STF, but that doesn't surprise me. My comment wasn't focused on STF's, but PUG's in general.
Still... people don't look around now and then to see what their teammates are up to? When everybody's scattered across the map and it's regroup or die, what does the team leader do?
No question voice chat is better, maybe even more than a little bit necessary. But when you're in a PUG you can't count on that. If chat is all you got, you use chat and deal with what you have.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I gave up on voice chat when I got put in a pug with two people whose English was non existant and a man who kept shouting "open fire all weapons"
since then i keep it disabled
Ah, but having everyone over to one's bridge for a spot of tea and crumpets before the final battle can do wonders for morale.
Sure, let the captains take a break!
That's what Bridge Officers are for, right?
"Number One, you have the bridge. I need a snack."
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
The thing is when they got ignored (for AFK or leaving a match) they would be GONE
That won't really help anything. You might ignore them but others won't. Since you won't see the chat by them, you could very well end up in a group with them because the group leader doesn't have them ignored.
Eventually someone who's a problem could be ignored by enough people that finding a team would be hard for them, but that would take quite some time for the word to cycle around like that.
I have to disagree with your comments on ELITE STF's and NOOB's.
Allowing PUGS in Elite STF's is fine, if you dislike that option then DON'T USE the matching system, this is your choice. I would however like it if they made a requirement for players to do the normal STF at least once before entering the Elite version.
The idea that no one should be called a NOOB is just more of this touchy feeling TRIBBLE. If some one is a acting like a JERK you call them that, if someone is acting like a NOOB you call them that. Just dont mistake a NOOB for a Newbie, Newbie is someone new to the game or even returning to the game that is still learning. A NOOB is someone refuses to learn, thus having a negative impact on everyone gaming experience.
I believe they should develop a policy and way to report AFKers in STF/Fleet Actions... They should take action against people that AFK in games any announce monthly statistics .
As someone who is, in part, responsible for this rage, let me say this:
two fleetmates and I went in a team for an elite stf (pug). While I was more confident (and had more experience with) Space stfs, my friends wanted to do Infected Ground, so we did.
I had no experience, and so, my team and I kept dying. A lot. We made it to the end when we were all killed, in part due to my actions (of not knowing what to do since I had never played it before).
The experienced member of the pug group (somehow, I think it was you. excuse me if I'm wrong) got mad, told us to read the stowiki guide and practice on normal before coming back, and promptly left. This forced us to leave as well, and we all had to take the leaver penalty.
Now, let's think about your plan and apply it. Someone who HAD done Infected elite many times would now be banned from doing STFs ever again. Period. Done. Because some people on the team (including myself) did not know what to do.
My fleetmates and I, who are quite good at the space stfs, would even be restricted from doing those ever again. Because someone else left and now we were forced to leave ourselves and take the penalty.
According to your plan, we all would not be able do do any more elite STFs because one person was inexperienced, and one person got mad and left.
Volunteer forum moderators are one thing; it's not time-sensitive and they can moderate throughout the day as they have time. You'd need chat moderators on at least during every peak period. Doable, but not without its own challenges.
Remember, the chat system is accessible via XMPP. I'm in it all day from work.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
Blaming F2P is an inaccurate generalization, get used to the fact that if the game had not gone F2P, you wouldn't have this game to complain about.
There are just as many arrogant and stupid players who are subscribers as there are in the F2P camp, neither has that market cornered.
When you log in to a public STF, you're rolling the dice on whether you'll have a good group to play with, don't pug with strangers if it bothers you that much, other players have the right to try their luck or the right to learn hard lessons if they aren't ready yet, after all this game wasn't made just for you.
A simple mechanism is needed, if you die more than once in elite you are tossed and someone waiting in the que is thrown into the game. As for BOTs, that's not a Bot, that's an exploit, players who know they will still get marks even if they do nothing, logging in and sitting with their thumbs up their sphincters, something needs to be done regarding activity timers, if you aren't moving or shooting for a very short period of time you are tossed, no reward and a penalty CD before you can try again.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
As someone who is, in part, responsible for this rage, let me say this:
two fleetmates and I went in a team for an elite stf (pug). While I was more confident (and had more experience with) Space stfs, my friends wanted to do Infected Ground, so we did.
I had no experience, and so, my team and I kept dying. A lot. We made it to the end when we were all killed, in part due to my actions (of not knowing what to do since I had never played it before).
The experienced member of the pug group (somehow, I think it was you. excuse me if I'm wrong) got mad, told us to read the stowiki guide and practice on normal before coming back, and promptly left. This forced us to leave as well, and we all had to take the leaver penalty.
Now, let's think about your plan and apply it. Someone who HAD done Infected elite many times would now be banned from doing STFs ever again. Period. Done. Because some people on the team (including myself) did not know what to do.
My fleetmates and I, who are quite good at the space stfs, would even be restricted from doing those ever again. Because someone else left and now we were forced to leave ourselves and take the penalty.
According to your plan, we all would not be able do do any more elite STFs because one person was inexperienced, and one person got mad and left.
Is that fair?
That's how PVE maulers operate. It'll be left to the PVP'er to save STO.
Blaming F2P is an inaccurate generalization, get used to the fact that if the game had not gone F2P, you wouldn't have this game to complain about.
Actually, the game was profitable before it went F2P, and would have been sustainable. However, the evidence suggested it could be much more profitable F2P, and that's evidently happened. So we'd still have the game, just not some of the new shiny that is coming.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
Those players have ruined the fun. It is near impossible to play an STF with a random group since STO got F2P. Either you have one NOOB in your team who risks every players life or a veteran who leaves the game when a noob ruined the optional. In both ways it makes no longer fun to play STF missions.
I think you're greatly exagerating. Out of 10 elite STFs I do 6 end up with a successful optional. This means a few thousand extra ECs for crappy items and maybe some salvage. I'm well beyond caring. If you want your optionals open up a private group. Don't do PUGs.
As someone who is, in part, responsible for this rage, let me say this:
two fleetmates and I went in a team for an elite stf (pug). While I was more confident (and had more experience with) Space stfs, my friends wanted to do Infected Ground, so we did.
I had no experience, and so, my team and I kept dying. A lot. We made it to the end when we were all killed, in part due to my actions (of not knowing what to do since I had never played it before).
The experienced member of the pug group (somehow, I think it was you. excuse me if I'm wrong) got mad, told us to read the stowiki guide and practice on normal before coming back, and promptly left. This forced us to leave as well, and we all had to take the leaver penalty.
Now, let's think about your plan and apply it. Someone who HAD done Infected elite many times would now be banned from doing STFs ever again. Period. Done. Because some people on the team (including myself) did not know what to do.
My fleetmates and I, who are quite good at the space stfs, would even be restricted from doing those ever again. Because someone else left and now we were forced to leave ourselves and take the penalty.
According to your plan, we all would not be able do do any more elite STFs because one person was inexperienced, and one person got mad and left.
Is that fair?
Firstly its DEFINATELY not me (can prove this with three points 1 I only run elites with one specific team of people (the same 5 guys each time both factions) 2 I have only ever quit a run once (My cat was being violently ill in the hallway) and 3 I would NEVER recomend a wiki (ask anyone))
And no
The point im making is the guy who enters the mission sees that not everyone is a maco suicide clone and quits BEFORE it starts
or the guy who bails when the optional fails wouldbecome known and would not find people willing to team with them
Why has this thread become (in some way) players attacking players. No matter the game there will always be new players. In the most part new players will be willing to learn from more experienced players as long as it is directed in a helpful manner and not in a you do this you do that manner. But there will be new players who think they know best because they have read something or watched something. but that's their wish if that what they want to do. It just (and justifably too) gets others annoyed and angry, but berating them calling them noobs etc will not achieve anything.
At the end of the day that is life, you will get those willing to learn and listen and those who think they know best.
Whenever I play a normal STF mission (I never play elite for reasons I do not wish to disclose on here) I always start as I was taught how to play them by another player, but should the tactics of the mission change I change with them. That in my opinion is being part of the team.
Comments
It's really more of a communication issue. That's the real reason PUG's fail.
Players get too busy mashing buttons to stop and think about the other players around them. By the time Player A types three letters in chat, Player B has rushed ahead and aggroed a whole mob.
If the group had good communication, I bet even an inexperienced group could have a good time and still beat a scenario. Or at least learn from it for the next time.
In an MMO where there's no guarantee voicechat is available, effective, and usable by everyone, we should be regrouping every now and then to make sure everyone is healed up, understands what's going on, and is ready to go. And that especially includes the newbies.
If somebody won't stop to listen, the correct response is for the rest of the group to calmly retreat to a safe distance, let the soloist get ko'ed, and then calmly get his attention as he's respawning to let him know that was a bad idea.
What normally happens instead is, everyone says "oh, no" and follows "Mr. Light Brigade" in, knowing they're all going to die but they do it anyhow.
I'll be a good sport and charge in the first couple of times, but after that I'm going to go into survival mode. Then, while everybody's waiting to respawn or get resuscitated, I'm going to have a golden opportunity to express my opinion of that tactic.
Them who can be educated will get it. Them who can't, I know to avoid later.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
one controlled , moderated channel that would become the ONLY place you would form a team
thus getting them all out of local and zone chat
and giving everyone what they want
No, I am not hard to communicate with. Your reply to me was poorly written.
you wrote:
"Well its gotten YOU blacklisted on the official (and only) STF elite team channel"
How did I misconstrue that?
Past tense vs. present tense matters. Your fail isn't my fail.
Granted you'd find out once you teamed up, but then your channel isn't working the way you want it to.
RE "under 5000 accolade makes you a newbie": I've been playing since January. I know the game fairly well. I know how all the space STFs run (I don't do ground STFs if I can avoid them because I don't like them). I have two vice admiral characters, one of whom has completed the game. The other is very close to completing it. Neither has 5000 accolade points. One has somewhere between 4000 and 5000; I don't remember where the other one is.
Seven months I've been playing the game, and you'd call me a newbie just because of my accolade points. That's why accolades are not an accurate measure of a player's worth or experience.
Volunteer forum moderators are one thing; it's not time-sensitive and they can moderate throughout the day as they have time. You'd need chat moderators on at least during every peak period. Doable, but not without its own challenges.
Thanks for bringing that up.
Technically, we can suppose that Cryptic could build in that functionality... but I can't see them doing it even if it's technically possible, which it might not be.
Normally a moderated chat channel is by invitation only. That's one way I suppose.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
It isn't necessary. Making Elites team only and gating them thru some chat channel is a waste of time and resources.
It doesn't fix anything.
People who want to run in teams only can do that right now, without TRIBBLE people who currently enjoy pugging.
Basically, if you don't like what happens in a pug...don't pug.
I agree.
/char
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link
I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
Some people moan about the pugs.
So?
Some people moan that its hot outside. Or that traffic sucks.
Doesn't mean that everyone who enjoys pugs should have to go without because some people moan.
Especially since if you don't want to pug, you don't have to. Nothing prevents you from doing your elite runs on a team. You can already do that.
Why do you think it is ok to take away game content from people who pug when you already don't have to pug?
No argument from me, either. We don't need to be gating players out of the game over it, not even Elite STF's.
PUGs are always going to be hit-and-miss. That's just the nature of the beast. You won't find (or make) the good players without teaming up with people you don't know at least once.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
This.
Leave the gated content to the hairy midgets and the ewoks.
You probably told your kids to never trust strangers, it'd be wise to heed the same advice... just in spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace.
Especially if they're offering you Tholian candy in an Orb Weaver Van.
What? That isn't legit?
Except, for like Elite STF where time is a factor, you can't re-group and have a little chat :rolleyes:
This wouldn't actually accomplish anything that the existing unofficial channels already do, and in fact would likely be less effective at it.
Nothing is stopping someone from joining that chan and going AFK or doing something stupid in the STF. Seeing how it's an official channel means you can't be banned from it unless you break the ToS, and being dumb in a STF is not against the ToS.
So no, this wouldn't actually accomplish anything because it wouldn't do what it's intended to do.
Also there's no way PWE is going to pay to have people moderate the chan 24/7. Volunteer mods won't work, because I don't believe there's any way PWE would give volunteers mod rights to a public official chan.
I've never run an STF, but that doesn't surprise me. My comment wasn't focused on STF's, but PUG's in general.
Still... people don't look around now and then to see what their teammates are up to? When everybody's scattered across the map and it's regroup or die, what does the team leader do?
No question voice chat is better, maybe even more than a little bit necessary. But when you're in a PUG you can't count on that. If chat is all you got, you use chat and deal with what you have.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
since then i keep it disabled
Ah, but having everyone over to one's bridge for a spot of tea and crumpets before the final battle can do wonders for morale.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "I weary of the chase. Wait for me. I shall be merciful and quick."
Open fire all weapons.
Sure, let the captains take a break!
That's what Bridge Officers are for, right?
"Number One, you have the bridge. I need a snack."
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
That won't really help anything. You might ignore them but others won't. Since you won't see the chat by them, you could very well end up in a group with them because the group leader doesn't have them ignored.
Eventually someone who's a problem could be ignored by enough people that finding a team would be hard for them, but that would take quite some time for the word to cycle around like that.
I have to disagree with your comments on ELITE STF's and NOOB's.
Allowing PUGS in Elite STF's is fine, if you dislike that option then DON'T USE the matching system, this is your choice. I would however like it if they made a requirement for players to do the normal STF at least once before entering the Elite version.
The idea that no one should be called a NOOB is just more of this touchy feeling TRIBBLE. If some one is a acting like a JERK you call them that, if someone is acting like a NOOB you call them that. Just dont mistake a NOOB for a Newbie, Newbie is someone new to the game or even returning to the game that is still learning. A NOOB is someone refuses to learn, thus having a negative impact on everyone gaming experience.
I believe they should develop a policy and way to report AFKers in STF/Fleet Actions... They should take action against people that AFK in games any announce monthly statistics .
As someone who is, in part, responsible for this rage, let me say this:
two fleetmates and I went in a team for an elite stf (pug). While I was more confident (and had more experience with) Space stfs, my friends wanted to do Infected Ground, so we did.
I had no experience, and so, my team and I kept dying. A lot. We made it to the end when we were all killed, in part due to my actions (of not knowing what to do since I had never played it before).
The experienced member of the pug group (somehow, I think it was you. excuse me if I'm wrong) got mad, told us to read the stowiki guide and practice on normal before coming back, and promptly left. This forced us to leave as well, and we all had to take the leaver penalty.
Now, let's think about your plan and apply it. Someone who HAD done Infected elite many times would now be banned from doing STFs ever again. Period. Done. Because some people on the team (including myself) did not know what to do.
My fleetmates and I, who are quite good at the space stfs, would even be restricted from doing those ever again. Because someone else left and now we were forced to leave ourselves and take the penalty.
According to your plan, we all would not be able do do any more elite STFs because one person was inexperienced, and one person got mad and left.
Is that fair?
Formerly Traven158
Remember, the chat system is accessible via XMPP. I'm in it all day from work.
There are just as many arrogant and stupid players who are subscribers as there are in the F2P camp, neither has that market cornered.
When you log in to a public STF, you're rolling the dice on whether you'll have a good group to play with, don't pug with strangers if it bothers you that much, other players have the right to try their luck or the right to learn hard lessons if they aren't ready yet, after all this game wasn't made just for you.
A simple mechanism is needed, if you die more than once in elite you are tossed and someone waiting in the que is thrown into the game. As for BOTs, that's not a Bot, that's an exploit, players who know they will still get marks even if they do nothing, logging in and sitting with their thumbs up their sphincters, something needs to be done regarding activity timers, if you aren't moving or shooting for a very short period of time you are tossed, no reward and a penalty CD before you can try again.
That's how PVE maulers operate. It'll be left to the PVP'er to save STO.
Actually, the game was profitable before it went F2P, and would have been sustainable. However, the evidence suggested it could be much more profitable F2P, and that's evidently happened. So we'd still have the game, just not some of the new shiny that is coming.
I think you're greatly exagerating. Out of 10 elite STFs I do 6 end up with a successful optional. This means a few thousand extra ECs for crappy items and maybe some salvage. I'm well beyond caring. If you want your optionals open up a private group. Don't do PUGs.
Firstly its DEFINATELY not me (can prove this with three points 1 I only run elites with one specific team of people (the same 5 guys each time both factions) 2 I have only ever quit a run once (My cat was being violently ill in the hallway) and 3 I would NEVER recomend a wiki (ask anyone))
And no
The point im making is the guy who enters the mission sees that not everyone is a maco suicide clone and quits BEFORE it starts
or the guy who bails when the optional fails wouldbecome known and would not find people willing to team with them
At the end of the day that is life, you will get those willing to learn and listen and those who think they know best.
Whenever I play a normal STF mission (I never play elite for reasons I do not wish to disclose on here) I always start as I was taught how to play them by another player, but should the tactics of the mission change I change with them. That in my opinion is being part of the team.