as an avid pvp player id be willing to take a very low amount per match. 1 per match would be a good stopgap for the pvp community why not being too obvious an enticment for afk'rs
maybe even have it tied into the random daily? 5 marks for completetion of the daily?
maybe even both?
I hate to admit it but this seems to be the best way to avoid AFK heroes with your current tech. Personally I like the both option. Five FM for a weak daily in both cap and hold and arena and one for every match you are in regardless of PvP type public or private.
Won't to do much to get the PvP curious to get off the bench though. But at least we are not being fully punished for our preferred play style.
The PvP tech limits make me .
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
well if what they say is to be believed then new pvp tech is being worked on. what that tech is and what it does we dont know. and assuming nothing else comes along to TRIBBLE it up we might even find out in a year or so.
well if what they say is to be believed then new pvp tech is being worked on. what that tech is and what it does we dont know. and assuming nothing else comes along to TRIBBLE it up we might even find out in a year or so.
That's assuming there are any players left in "a year or so".
how about adding them to a mission already in game kdf side..Ship Killer - Klingons/fed.. just put the same missions fed side and reward like 5-10 marks for completing it. it would take care of the problems of Afkers getting them since they would have to score kills to complete the mission.
well if what they say is to be believed then new pvp tech is being worked on. what that tech is and what it does we dont know. and assuming nothing else comes along to TRIBBLE it up we might even find out in a year or so.
New tech was already worked on, by a "pvp hit team" and was supposed to be installed with S6. It didn't make it for the same reason nothing gozer suggested is getting done, for the same reason Bort can't get time assigned to him for pvp fixes...Stahl rejects it in it's entirety.
This opinion could be eased or the damage done by this reputation slightly healed if something were to make it in for pvp quickly.
how about adding them to a mission already in game kdf side..Ship Killer - Klingons/fed.. just put the same missions fed side and reward like 5-10 marks for completing it. it would take care of the problems of Afkers getting them since they would have to score kills to complete the mission.
thats a great idea!
this way its not reliant on "winning" a match but scoring kills!....
how about adding them to a mission already in game kdf side..Ship Killer - Klingons/fed.. just put the same missions fed side and reward like 5-10 marks for completing it. it would take care of the problems of Afkers getting them since they would have to score kills to complete the mission.
Oh yeah Ship Killer! I forgot about that mission. Kill x player controlled ships for x Marks. Good idea. it could probably easily be made repeatable with a cooldown and doubleable within the happy mark hour.
this way its not reliant on "winning" a match but scoring kills!....
...
i can feel the wrongness with this already....
Well i think it could help in 2 ways.. its would help pvp based fleet get the starbase done a little faster since its sometimes hard to get pvper to pve the same missions over and over and over etc... plus maybe it will make people wanna get a little bit better at pvp so it doesnt take them 5-6 matchs to get 10 kills.
Color me curious... Does anyone have a solid proposal for awarding Fleet Marks (or anything tangible, really) for PvP matches under the existing system (meaning, no new features or tech) that wouldn't be quickly and easily exploitable?
Let's say we stick it in as a PvP Daily, for the sake of argument... Would we not see an influx of AFK'ers and Kill Feeders that would diminish the overall experience of PvP, while quickly working their way to this new Daily reward?
There are two obvious solutions to this:
1) Allow it, and set the rewards very, very low to compensate.
-or-
2) Set the mission condition to "Win A Public Match" (since both losing and private matches can be exploited for mission completion, otherwise).
Solution #1 renders the mission nearly pointless. We may as well give away free Fleet Marks, which more of our players would be able to enjoy without diminishing the PvP experience for those that are actually attempting to play matches.
Solution #2 locks out the rewards to all but an elite portion of a small community of our overall playerbase. Let's face it - you guys aren't just good at PvP, you take it to a level that most of our players are unlikely to be able to even comprehend, much less defeat in a match. And even for the really elite PvPers, you'll on average have a 50% win rate when matched up against other elites, meaning that half the time you run the mission you get nothing.
If I'm overlooking another obvious solution, I'd love to hear your theories on it. Finding a way to reward PvP is a big step towards getting more players to participate in it. It's important. But under our existing system, our options are very limited.
Since fleet marks are supposed to be for fleet activities, how about something like this:
Losing side: 2 fleet mark for for every kill the team scores. Max would be of course the number of kills setup for the match. Plus one fleet mark for each member of your fleet in the match.
for example in a typical 15 kills match, 5 fleet members, the max each member gets is
28+5 = 33
While the minimal count is 5
Winning side: Gets the same, but only 1 fleet mark for kills, and 9 marks for the win.
Same example:
9+15+5=29
and minimal is also 29
Why the heck this? To facilitate participating by the loosing side, just sitting there AFK gives minimal marks, while actually playing and getting kills in will give you a lot more. so yes, been the losing side can get you more marks hen the winning side, however for that it has to be a very close match. If the loosing side will just afk or slack, the rewards are minimal.
Since fleet marks are supposed to be for fleet activities, how about something like this:
Losing side: 2 fleet mark for for every kill the team scores. Max would be of course the number of kills setup for the match. Plus one fleet mark for each member of your fleet in the match.
for example in a typical 15 kills match, 5 fleet members, the max each member gets is
28+5 = 33
While the minimal count is 5
Winning side: Gets the same, but only 1 fleet mark for kills, and 9 marks for the win.
Same example:
9+15+5=29
and minimal is also 29
Why the heck this? To facilitate participating by the loosing side, just sitting there AFK gives minimal marks, while actually playing and getting kills in will give you a lot more. so yes, been the losing side can get you more marks hen the winning side, however for that it has to be a very close match. If the loosing side will just afk or slack, the rewards are minimal.
It's crazy, but is it crazy enough to work?
That and can the tech cope with it?
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
how about adding them to a mission already in game kdf side..Ship Killer - Klingons/fed.. just put the same missions fed side and reward like 5-10 marks for completing it. it would take care of the problems of Afkers getting them since they would have to score kills to complete the mission.
I like it, but it would take a bit of effort to get the Fed versions of those KDF PvP missions up and running. Also you wold have to do only the kill an opponent ones. The "get killed x times" ones would be total AFK hero bait.
*TRIBBLE an eyebrow at Borticus.*
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
Good concept, but we lack many key features in our current PvP system that'd be required to make it a sound design:
1) AFK timer flexibility, based on zone/region.
2) Respawn areas unreachable by enemy faction.
3) Ability to set a minimum participation cut-off.
... and as I originally posted, I'm looking for suggestions at the moment that wouldn't require new tech or features. We'll be looking at getting rewards into PvP by other means at a future point in time, but the complaints in this thread are focused around getting them in right now, which means not introducing anything new/fancy.
Would it be possible to base a metric off of how much damage/healing you do as well as kills?
You may not be able to win against the Elite, but you still do damage and healing. Convert that into some currency/variable, and once that currency/variable gets to a certain point, you complete the daily that rewards FM.
Would it be possible to base a metric off of how much damage/healing you do as well as kills?
You may not be able to win against the Elite, but you still do damage and healing. Convert that into some currency/variable, and once that currency/variable gets to a certain point, you complete the daily that rewards FM.
Does that not hurt the sci guys that fly sci ships? Oh wait now that PSW got hit with the feeble stick there should be less sci/sci.
I have at least two toons that fly sci/sci, Baloo and The Tick.
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
In order to keep afkers/abusers down the reward would have to be less than the rewards for afking PvE. Most of the PvE missions reward @ least 15 the highest being ~ 40 or so and are repeatable every 1/2 hour. So, I'd think adding 10 to the current dilithium PvP rewards should do.
Also, talk to the GMs about enforcing tickets form AFKer griefers (regardless if PvE or PvP), so they follow and ban characters/accounts that are habitual abusers.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Good concept, but we lack many key features in our current PvP system that'd be required to make it a sound design:
1) AFK timer flexibility, based on zone/region.
2) Respawn areas unreachable by enemy faction.
3) Ability to set a minimum participation cut-off.
... and as I originally posted, I'm looking for suggestions at the moment that wouldn't require new tech or features. We'll be looking at getting rewards into PvP by other means at a future point in time, but the complaints in this thread are focused around getting them in right now, which means not introducing anything new/fancy.
I think or believe the best resolution to majority of those problems without putting in some new tech which my idea might but I don't work for cryptic so i am not entirely sure but I will give it a shot.
There are some things I've witnessed in games over past few decades that could probally help here. This one is an Open PvP example if you kill a certain player or if you beat up on too many people the system would deem as beneath you if there was a way to establish pvp ranks or what not with current tech continual beating up on this person would eject you from the instance with a cool down to come back in account wide.
As well there is an idea prolly got lost somewhere but I was thinking of if you took the empire defense and redid that a bit and had your pve only ones in omega but put others with an actual starbase, structure, or planet to defend or take out for each enemy faction and make it an Open PvP area. To use the tech you have for optionals like pi canis and stfs but to make it where its based on damage and healing to reward fleet marks. This would negate the need for afk timers as long as the healing amounts were actual healing and not some person spamming heals to get fleet marks.
The example of that is like each player has individual optionals it has like you must find player A and destroy them... If you can destroy them you get X amount of fleet marks. However if you cannot destroy them based on how much damage you are able to do them at the end would reward you a % of the destroying pool. So in the case that person A and B are equally matched and never kill each other the system could draw it out to a tie and give both people 3/4 of the entire pool. If say person B kept getting their selves blown up over and over they could still get half but if they were not dealing any damage or not much at all and were not even attempting to heal themselves in the case of afking or other related ways to abuse the system they get nothing. I would assume though this would work by using the already found damage and healing scoring system and possibly a little bit of work on tieing the optional system to randomly choose targets to either destroy or keep alive maybe depending on what kind of ship you are in. So based on my theory the optional system could help you determine who to heal if you are in a support role. So trying to cross heal with a buddy to abuse the system would be nullified.
I think the biggest change in conclusion we could have is something like a PvEvP area not like ker'rat but one that has the Starbase Fleet Alert style where things are constantly coming in as they are destroyed. Something where design of PvP in these fictional locations yet to be built where attempting to gank another player comes with great risk of being destroyed by enemies/npcs where as there isn't any real risk when you go to ker'rat unless you are just out numbered severly by the opposite faction. Lastly the issue of minimum participation in the form of being out numbered one of the answers IMO is Operational PvP Assets to be used with fleet marks if say its just you and a few others versus an overwhelming force... If the engine or system can make a calculation on specific amounts to trigger the use of an asset that may help with the problem. In one game I loved to play in its prime it had it where players of a certain pvp rank could transform where as they were generals or high ranking officers who had powers to stabilize situations like this although I doubt we would ever see gear in this game like you got with those points where you ranked up and then deranked when you bought pvp defense and pvp offense gear.
Since fleet marks are supposed to be for fleet activities, how about something like this:
Losing side: 2 fleet mark for for every kill the team scores. Max would be of course the number of kills setup for the match. Plus one fleet mark for each member of your fleet in the match.
for example in a typical 15 kills match, 5 fleet members, the max each member gets is
28+5 = 33
While the minimal count is 5
Winning side: Gets the same, but only 1 fleet mark for kills, and 9 marks for the win.
Same example:
9+15+5=29
and minimal is also 29
Why the heck this? To facilitate participating by the loosing side, just sitting there AFK gives minimal marks, while actually playing and getting kills in will give you a lot more. so yes, been the losing side can get you more marks hen the winning side, however for that it has to be a very close match. If the loosing side will just afk or slack, the rewards are minimal.
This.....this is actually a pretty brilliant solution if it can be implemented. Max rewards go to the losing side that participates? Hello carrot!
Alternatively the "ship killer" could work. Same with a quest that gives marks based on total contribution. Over 100k damage =5 marks. Over 1m gives 20 or whatever. Do the same with heals. Kinda screws the science guys but hey they can just slot a TBR 3 or something.
I would also like to say a sincere thanks to Borticus for engaging the pvpers here. You take a lot of TRIBBLE, but honestly you have given a lot of fixes and consistent feedback and it's very much appreciated. <tips hat>. We will still prolly grief you but your efforts are visible and noticed.
Keep in mind participation or rewards based on kills or damage etc will neglect differing build options which are effective and help the team, but aren't easily quantifiable. Also, this would require tech. He's asking for a short term solution.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Color me curious... Does anyone have a solid proposal for awarding Fleet Marks (or anything tangible, really) for PvP matches under the existing system (meaning, no new features or tech) that wouldn't be quickly and easily exploitable?
Let's say we stick it in as a PvP Daily, for the sake of argument... Would we not see an influx of AFK'ers and Kill Feeders that would diminish the overall experience of PvP, while quickly working their way to this new Daily reward?
There are two obvious solutions to this:
1) Allow it, and set the rewards very, very low to compensate.
-or-
2) Set the mission condition to "Win A Public Match" (since both losing and private matches can be exploited for mission completion, otherwise).
Solution #1 renders the mission nearly pointless. We may as well give away free Fleet Marks, which more of our players would be able to enjoy without diminishing the PvP experience for those that are actually attempting to play matches.
Solution #2 locks out the rewards to all but an elite portion of a small community of our overall playerbase. Let's face it - you guys aren't just good at PvP, you take it to a level that most of our players are unlikely to be able to even comprehend, much less defeat in a match. And even for the really elite PvPers, you'll on average have a 50% win rate when matched up against other elites, meaning that half the time you run the mission you get nothing.
If I'm overlooking another obvious solution, I'd love to hear your theories on it. Finding a way to reward PvP is a big step towards getting more players to participate in it. It's important. But under our existing system, our options are very limited.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
1) Allow it, and set the rewards very, very low to compensate.
-or-
2) Set the mission condition to "Win A Public Match" (since both losing and private matches can be exploited for mission completion, otherwise).
Solution #1 renders the mission nearly pointless. We may as well give away free Fleet Marks, which more of our players would be able to enjoy without diminishing the PvP experience for those that are actually attempting to play matches.
Solution #2 locks out the rewards to all but an elite portion of a small community of our overall playerbase. Let's face it - you guys aren't just good at PvP, you take it to a level that most of our players are unlikely to be able to even comprehend, much less defeat in a match. And even for the really elite PvPers, you'll on average have a 50% win rate when matched up against other elites, meaning that half the time you run the mission you get nothing.
If I'm overlooking another obvious solution, I'd love to hear your theories on it. Finding a way to reward PvP is a big step towards getting more players to participate in it. It's important. But under our existing system, our options are very limited.
Solution 2 is better than no solution, I don't think it's possible to argue otherwise. That said, why not combine 1 and 2? Losing gives a very limited amount of fleet marks, and winning gives a healthy amount.
Since fleet marks are supposed to be given out for, you know, fleet activities, perhaps you could reward more marks depending on how many people from the same fleet you queue up with. This would encourage more players to try to operate at a higher level, with the dual carrots of getting more marks for making premades and winning.
While we're on the topic though, it would be nice if PvP rewards were looked at overall. The amount that you receive for participating in, or even winning a match, are pretty darn low compared with everything else in the game.
Color me curious... Does anyone have a solid proposal for awarding Fleet Marks (or anything tangible, really) for PvP matches under the existing system (meaning, no new features or tech) that wouldn't be quickly and easily exploitable?
Let's say we stick it in as a PvP Daily, for the sake of argument... Would we not see an influx of AFK'ers and Kill Feeders that would diminish the overall experience of PvP, while quickly working their way to this new Daily reward?
There are two obvious solutions to this:
1) Allow it, and set the rewards very, very low to compensate.
-or-
2) Set the mission condition to "Win A Public Match" (since both losing and private matches can be exploited for mission completion, otherwise).
Solution #1 renders the mission nearly pointless. We may as well give away free Fleet Marks, which more of our players would be able to enjoy without diminishing the PvP experience for those that are actually attempting to play matches.
Solution #2 locks out the rewards to all but an elite portion of a small community of our overall playerbase. Let's face it - you guys aren't just good at PvP, you take it to a level that most of our players are unlikely to be able to even comprehend, much less defeat in a match. And even for the really elite PvPers, you'll on average have a 50% win rate when matched up against other elites, meaning that half the time you run the mission you get nothing.
If I'm overlooking another obvious solution, I'd love to hear your theories on it. Finding a way to reward PvP is a big step towards getting more players to participate in it. It's important. But under our existing system, our options are very limited.
Solutions:
A: Attach fleet mark rewards to the amount of damage+healing done over the course of the match, divided by 1000 for ground and 10,000 for space. This should put it in line with the 3 fleet marks per minute of normal fleet mark events.
B: Attach fleet marks to kills via a kill mission a la the Klingon Dilithium dailies.
C: Attach fleet marks to PvP participation at such a rate that it is inefficient to idle in PvP as compared to regular gameplay, but which will provide a solid amount over the course of an evening. 5 marks per completion of a pvp match, for instance, would average out to around half a mark per minute, which is less than a third of what you get even with a bad team in PvE missions, but it would still make PvP a decent source of fleet marks to people who are doing it for its own sake. Up this value during the fleet mark event.
Mission #1: Win a single PvP match (20 hour cooldown timer)
Rewards a choice of either 20 fleet marks, 480 dilithium or a random rare/very rare item.
Mission #2: Loose 5 PvP matches (20 cooldown timer)
Rewards a consolation prize for hard work. Player gets a choice of either 10 fleet marks, 240 dilithium or a random uncommon/rare item.
how about adding them to a mission already in game kdf side..Ship Killer - Klingons/fed.. just put the same missions fed side and reward like 5-10 marks for completing it. it would take care of the problems of Afkers getting them since they would have to score kills to complete the mission.
2) Set the mission condition to "Win A Public Match" (since both losing and private matches can be exploited for mission completion, otherwise).
...
Solution #2 locks out the rewards to all but an elite portion of a small community of our overall playerbase. Let's face it - you guys aren't just good at PvP, you take it to a level that most of our players are unlikely to be able to even comprehend, much less defeat in a match. And even for the really elite PvPers, you'll on average have a 50% win rate when matched up against other elites, meaning that half the time you run the mission you get nothing.
Solution #2 is fine. Your forget that PVPers don't pvp only for the rewards. We pvp all day long for the fun of it and would appreciate a little bit of recognition for our efforts. Getting a couple fleet marks for winning every now and then would be enough.
(Fun fact: The mission descriptions for some of the pvp wrapper missions even say "win ..." instead of "fight in ...". All of them are implemented as "participation is enough", but maybe the original design ideas (back before launch) actually included win-only rewards?)
Solutions:
A: Attach fleet mark rewards to the amount of damage+healing done over the course of the match, divided by 1000 for ground and 10,000 for space. This should put it in line with the 3 fleet marks per minute of normal fleet mark events.
B: Attach fleet marks to kills via a kill mission a la the Klingon Dilithium dailies.
C: Attach fleet marks to PvP participation at such a rate that it is inefficient to idle in PvP as compared to regular gameplay, but which will provide a solid amount over the course of an evening. 5 marks per completion of a pvp match, for instance, would average out to around half a mark per minute, which is less than a third of what you get even with a bad team in PvE missions, but it would still make PvP a decent source of fleet marks to people who are doing it for its own sake. Up this value during the fleet mark event.
While A seems nice at the first glance, then you realize it would benefit only escorts. Zombie escorts to be precise. Same goes for B.
I would prefer C.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Color me curious... Does anyone have a solid proposal for awarding Fleet Marks (or anything tangible, really) for PvP matches under the existing system (meaning, no new features or tech) that wouldn't be quickly and easily exploitable?
Let's say we stick it in as a PvP Daily, for the sake of argument... Would we not see an influx of AFK'ers and Kill Feeders that would diminish the overall experience of PvP, while quickly working their way to this new Daily reward?
If I'm overlooking another obvious solution, I'd love to hear your theories on it. Finding a way to reward PvP is a big step towards getting more players to participate in it. It's important. But under our existing system, our options are very limited.
adding fleet marks to pvp- arena
1 fleet mark per kill.
match ends when 1 team gets 15 kills, wining team gets 15 marks, +5 bonus marks
losing team gets a mark for every kill they get, +5 bonus marks
if the losing team gets 0 kills, they would still get no less then 5 marks per match.
winners always get 20, losers always get at least 5
adding fleet marks to pvp- cap and hold
now this one could be tough, they can last an hour, or 5 minutes and kills are irreverent.
maybe 2 fleet mark per point capture? well 2 groups could do nothing but cap back and forth and exploit that
just 20 marks for the wining team and 10 for the losers i guess.
this way it would be performance based, but everyone would get a participation ribbon too. it would encourage effort, wile not giving all the marks to the winners. adding them to the daily encourage suicide to get it completed as fast as possible.
could you quadrupedal the ec reward at the end of matches too? doing basically nothing but pvp makes it pretty hard to earn any. the drops of deflectors, impulse engines and shields alone in ec value is a windfall in pve that is far greater then what can be earned spending the same amount of time pvping.
Let's face it - you guys aren't just good at PvP, you take it to a level that most of our players are unlikely to be able to even comprehend, much less defeat in a match. And even for the really elite PvPers, you'll on average have a 50% win rate when matched up against other elites, meaning that half the time you run the mission you get nothing.
any of us that are at a level the average pve'er cant comprehend are this good for 3 reasons. unlearning everything pve has taught us, practice, and knowing the vast amount of undocumented information there is on how to get your ship at 100% of its potential.
the current state of pve gets those hopeless players killed. it teaches them how to play incorrectly, and then rewards their incompetents. if i had 2 hours 1 on 1 with a hopeless pve'er, i could turn all that around, i could give him the information he needs to use the full potential of his ship. he would then be able to practice and play till he was one of us.
ya, but i don't really have time to do that. im not obligated to do that. but, i have done it once or twice, and i post as much helpful information as possible when asked here on the forums and in game.
this problem is not one i think cryptic can continue to ignore. how long will it be before they all realize that these ships they bought arent helping them do any better, and they stop buying them and stop playing? its already happening, and its only going to pick up steam.
again, complete npc overhaul that makes them act more like player ships. i could tell you exactly how to do it, in person even, i did apply to that systems position a few weeks ago in hopes that i could add my incomprehendable knowledge to the system team. anyway, thats the only way the entire player base will learn to play correctly. correctly, as in using closer to 100% of their ship's potential, instead of around 10% of it.
is pvp worth doing this to the npcs? hell no, its to insignificant unfortunately. but you built a game that is THIS complex, with a massive amount of variable that effect 100 different things. it was proboly a mistake making it this complex, we were able to figured it out on our own, but the rest of them need to be led to it. are you proud to have a player base this bad at your game, literally operating at 10% or less of the their potential? god, i wouldn't be, id hate that.
season 7 is all about advancing the story and pve right? well fix npcs then too. at the very least make these changes to elite difficulty, let the casuals continue shooting at their helpless hit point sponges if they really have fun doing that. don't want to alienate the most casual of purses, err players, with the most severe of gambling problems.
While A seems nice at the first glance, then you realize it would benefit only escorts. Zombie escorts to be precise. Same goes for B.
I would prefer C.
Healboats and dpsboats would benefit most from A, I agree. Crowd control goes underreported in the numbers, including kills. However, I still find that my numbers are within about 30% of the heal/dps boats, even when I'm playing a ccboat.
I think A is my favorite, of those. It rewards time spent, whereas the others put the same value on a great hour long battle as a five minute massacre, and makes active participation the only way to get marks. It's not fair to scis on a mark for mark basis, but I think a 30% imbalance in marks between careers and roles is a reasonable price to pay for making sure that people who fight and fight hard get rewarded, and lazy idlers get nothing.
Have the amount of marks given tied to the amount of damage received and dealt by your ship in public matches. Lets call it 50,000 damage per 1 fleet mark.
This stops AFK'ers from getting any marks and rewards everyone participating.
Comments
I hate to admit it but this seems to be the best way to avoid AFK heroes with your current tech. Personally I like the both option. Five FM for a weak daily in both cap and hold and arena and one for every match you are in regardless of PvP type public or private.
Won't to do much to get the PvP curious to get off the bench though. But at least we are not being fully punished for our preferred play style.
The PvP tech limits make me
well if what they say is to be believed then new pvp tech is being worked on. what that tech is and what it does we dont know. and assuming nothing else comes along to TRIBBLE it up we might even find out in a year or so.
That's assuming there are any players left in "a year or so".
A sobering, but true thought.
OP *is* the new balance, whether you know it or not! Gecko says so.
Season 7 - Exodus, available online. U buy nao!
http://seekingalpha.com/article/738221-monetizing-perfect-world-s-latest-update
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
New tech was already worked on, by a "pvp hit team" and was supposed to be installed with S6. It didn't make it for the same reason nothing gozer suggested is getting done, for the same reason Bort can't get time assigned to him for pvp fixes...Stahl rejects it in it's entirety.
This opinion could be eased or the damage done by this reputation slightly healed if something were to make it in for pvp quickly.
OP *is* the new balance, whether you know it or not! Gecko says so.
Season 7 - Exodus, available online. U buy nao!
http://seekingalpha.com/article/738221-monetizing-perfect-world-s-latest-update
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
thats a great idea!
this way its not reliant on "winning" a match but scoring kills!....
...
i can feel the wrongness with this already....
Oh yeah Ship Killer! I forgot about that mission. Kill x player controlled ships for x Marks. Good idea. it could probably easily be made repeatable with a cooldown and doubleable within the happy mark hour.
OP *is* the new balance, whether you know it or not! Gecko says so.
Season 7 - Exodus, available online. U buy nao!
http://seekingalpha.com/article/738221-monetizing-perfect-world-s-latest-update
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Well i think it could help in 2 ways.. its would help pvp based fleet get the starbase done a little faster since its sometimes hard to get pvper to pve the same missions over and over and over etc... plus maybe it will make people wanna get a little bit better at pvp so it doesnt take them 5-6 matchs to get 10 kills.
Since fleet marks are supposed to be for fleet activities, how about something like this:
Losing side: 2 fleet mark for for every kill the team scores. Max would be of course the number of kills setup for the match. Plus one fleet mark for each member of your fleet in the match.
for example in a typical 15 kills match, 5 fleet members, the max each member gets is
28+5 = 33
While the minimal count is 5
Winning side: Gets the same, but only 1 fleet mark for kills, and 9 marks for the win.
Same example:
9+15+5=29
and minimal is also 29
Why the heck this? To facilitate participating by the loosing side, just sitting there AFK gives minimal marks, while actually playing and getting kills in will give you a lot more. so yes, been the losing side can get you more marks hen the winning side, however for that it has to be a very close match. If the loosing side will just afk or slack, the rewards are minimal.
It's crazy, but is it crazy enough to work?
That and can the tech cope with it?
I like it, but it would take a bit of effort to get the Fed versions of those KDF PvP missions up and running. Also you wold have to do only the kill an opponent ones. The "get killed x times" ones would be total AFK hero bait.
*TRIBBLE an eyebrow at Borticus.*
You may not be able to win against the Elite, but you still do damage and healing. Convert that into some currency/variable, and once that currency/variable gets to a certain point, you complete the daily that rewards FM.
Does that not hurt the sci guys that fly sci ships? Oh wait now that PSW got hit with the feeble stick there should be less sci/sci.
I have at least two toons that fly sci/sci, Baloo and The Tick.
Also, talk to the GMs about enforcing tickets form AFKer griefers (regardless if PvE or PvP), so they follow and ban characters/accounts that are habitual abusers.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I think or believe the best resolution to majority of those problems without putting in some new tech which my idea might but I don't work for cryptic so i am not entirely sure but I will give it a shot.
There are some things I've witnessed in games over past few decades that could probally help here. This one is an Open PvP example if you kill a certain player or if you beat up on too many people the system would deem as beneath you if there was a way to establish pvp ranks or what not with current tech continual beating up on this person would eject you from the instance with a cool down to come back in account wide.
As well there is an idea prolly got lost somewhere but I was thinking of if you took the empire defense and redid that a bit and had your pve only ones in omega but put others with an actual starbase, structure, or planet to defend or take out for each enemy faction and make it an Open PvP area. To use the tech you have for optionals like pi canis and stfs but to make it where its based on damage and healing to reward fleet marks. This would negate the need for afk timers as long as the healing amounts were actual healing and not some person spamming heals to get fleet marks.
The example of that is like each player has individual optionals it has like you must find player A and destroy them... If you can destroy them you get X amount of fleet marks. However if you cannot destroy them based on how much damage you are able to do them at the end would reward you a % of the destroying pool. So in the case that person A and B are equally matched and never kill each other the system could draw it out to a tie and give both people 3/4 of the entire pool. If say person B kept getting their selves blown up over and over they could still get half but if they were not dealing any damage or not much at all and were not even attempting to heal themselves in the case of afking or other related ways to abuse the system they get nothing. I would assume though this would work by using the already found damage and healing scoring system and possibly a little bit of work on tieing the optional system to randomly choose targets to either destroy or keep alive maybe depending on what kind of ship you are in. So based on my theory the optional system could help you determine who to heal if you are in a support role. So trying to cross heal with a buddy to abuse the system would be nullified.
I think the biggest change in conclusion we could have is something like a PvEvP area not like ker'rat but one that has the Starbase Fleet Alert style where things are constantly coming in as they are destroyed. Something where design of PvP in these fictional locations yet to be built where attempting to gank another player comes with great risk of being destroyed by enemies/npcs where as there isn't any real risk when you go to ker'rat unless you are just out numbered severly by the opposite faction. Lastly the issue of minimum participation in the form of being out numbered one of the answers IMO is Operational PvP Assets to be used with fleet marks if say its just you and a few others versus an overwhelming force... If the engine or system can make a calculation on specific amounts to trigger the use of an asset that may help with the problem. In one game I loved to play in its prime it had it where players of a certain pvp rank could transform where as they were generals or high ranking officers who had powers to stabilize situations like this although I doubt we would ever see gear in this game like you got with those points where you ranked up and then deranked when you bought pvp defense and pvp offense gear.
This.....this is actually a pretty brilliant solution if it can be implemented. Max rewards go to the losing side that participates? Hello carrot!
Alternatively the "ship killer" could work. Same with a quest that gives marks based on total contribution. Over 100k damage =5 marks. Over 1m gives 20 or whatever. Do the same with heals. Kinda screws the science guys but hey they can just slot a TBR 3 or something.
I would also like to say a sincere thanks to Borticus for engaging the pvpers here. You take a lot of TRIBBLE, but honestly you have given a lot of fixes and consistent feedback and it's very much appreciated. <tips hat>. We will still prolly grief you but your efforts are visible and noticed.
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C&H Fed banter
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Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Solution 2 is better than no solution, I don't think it's possible to argue otherwise. That said, why not combine 1 and 2? Losing gives a very limited amount of fleet marks, and winning gives a healthy amount.
Since fleet marks are supposed to be given out for, you know, fleet activities, perhaps you could reward more marks depending on how many people from the same fleet you queue up with. This would encourage more players to try to operate at a higher level, with the dual carrots of getting more marks for making premades and winning.
While we're on the topic though, it would be nice if PvP rewards were looked at overall. The amount that you receive for participating in, or even winning a match, are pretty darn low compared with everything else in the game.
Solutions:
A: Attach fleet mark rewards to the amount of damage+healing done over the course of the match, divided by 1000 for ground and 10,000 for space. This should put it in line with the 3 fleet marks per minute of normal fleet mark events.
B: Attach fleet marks to kills via a kill mission a la the Klingon Dilithium dailies.
C: Attach fleet marks to PvP participation at such a rate that it is inefficient to idle in PvP as compared to regular gameplay, but which will provide a solid amount over the course of an evening. 5 marks per completion of a pvp match, for instance, would average out to around half a mark per minute, which is less than a third of what you get even with a bad team in PvE missions, but it would still make PvP a decent source of fleet marks to people who are doing it for its own sake. Up this value during the fleet mark event.
Mission #1: Win a single PvP match (20 hour cooldown timer)
Rewards a choice of either 20 fleet marks, 480 dilithium or a random rare/very rare item.
Mission #2: Loose 5 PvP matches (20 cooldown timer)
Rewards a consolation prize for hard work. Player gets a choice of either 10 fleet marks, 240 dilithium or a random uncommon/rare item.
Solution #2 is fine. Your forget that PVPers don't pvp only for the rewards. We pvp all day long for the fun of it and would appreciate a little bit of recognition for our efforts. Getting a couple fleet marks for winning every now and then would be enough.
(Fun fact: The mission descriptions for some of the pvp wrapper missions even say "win ..." instead of "fight in ...". All of them are implemented as "participation is enough", but maybe the original design ideas (back before launch) actually included win-only rewards?)
While A seems nice at the first glance, then you realize it would benefit only escorts. Zombie escorts to be precise. Same goes for B.
I would prefer C.
1 fleet mark per kill.
adding fleet marks to pvp- cap and hold
maybe a bonus mark for every 5 kills you get too, or based on your k/d ratio, i would certainly benefit from that! http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/578964109007817854/BB4C972B813CF0287767FF638250DD8A30038837/ ruwon=me
this way it would be performance based, but everyone would get a participation ribbon too. it would encourage effort, wile not giving all the marks to the winners. adding them to the daily encourage suicide to get it completed as fast as possible.
could you quadrupedal the ec reward at the end of matches too? doing basically nothing but pvp makes it pretty hard to earn any. the drops of deflectors, impulse engines and shields alone in ec value is a windfall in pve that is far greater then what can be earned spending the same amount of time pvping.
any of us that are at a level the average pve'er cant comprehend are this good for 3 reasons. unlearning everything pve has taught us, practice, and knowing the vast amount of undocumented information there is on how to get your ship at 100% of its potential.
the current state of pve gets those hopeless players killed. it teaches them how to play incorrectly, and then rewards their incompetents. if i had 2 hours 1 on 1 with a hopeless pve'er, i could turn all that around, i could give him the information he needs to use the full potential of his ship. he would then be able to practice and play till he was one of us.
ya, but i don't really have time to do that. im not obligated to do that. but, i have done it once or twice, and i post as much helpful information as possible when asked here on the forums and in game.
this problem is not one i think cryptic can continue to ignore. how long will it be before they all realize that these ships they bought arent helping them do any better, and they stop buying them and stop playing? its already happening, and its only going to pick up steam.
again, complete npc overhaul that makes them act more like player ships. i could tell you exactly how to do it, in person even, i did apply to that systems position a few weeks ago in hopes that i could add my incomprehendable knowledge to the system team. anyway, thats the only way the entire player base will learn to play correctly. correctly, as in using closer to 100% of their ship's potential, instead of around 10% of it.
is pvp worth doing this to the npcs? hell no, its to insignificant unfortunately. but you built a game that is THIS complex, with a massive amount of variable that effect 100 different things. it was proboly a mistake making it this complex, we were able to figured it out on our own, but the rest of them need to be led to it. are you proud to have a player base this bad at your game, literally operating at 10% or less of the their potential? god, i wouldn't be, id hate that.
season 7 is all about advancing the story and pve right? well fix npcs then too. at the very least make these changes to elite difficulty, let the casuals continue shooting at their helpless hit point sponges if they really have fun doing that. don't want to alienate the most casual of purses, err players, with the most severe of gambling problems.
Healboats and dpsboats would benefit most from A, I agree. Crowd control goes underreported in the numbers, including kills. However, I still find that my numbers are within about 30% of the heal/dps boats, even when I'm playing a ccboat.
I think A is my favorite, of those. It rewards time spent, whereas the others put the same value on a great hour long battle as a five minute massacre, and makes active participation the only way to get marks. It's not fair to scis on a mark for mark basis, but I think a 30% imbalance in marks between careers and roles is a reasonable price to pay for making sure that people who fight and fight hard get rewarded, and lazy idlers get nothing.
Have the amount of marks given tied to the amount of damage received and dealt by your ship in public matches. Lets call it 50,000 damage per 1 fleet mark.
This stops AFK'ers from getting any marks and rewards everyone participating.