In CaH you could reward marks for the capturing/holding instead of killing. But that would be hard to implement I guess.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
To vaoid AFKing, the reward has to be lower than doing Fleet Actions.
By doing Fleet actions, you can do 3-4 per hour, and each reward about 20 Fleet Marks. That's 60-80 FM per hour.
A PvP match usually last 10 minutes on average, a bit longer for C&H (pug vs pug), + queueing time. Say we can get 4-5 done in one hour?
I suggest to add 7 FM per match, making it possible to earn 28-35 FM in one hour. In addition to this, you could have the "Ship Killer" mission, for killing 10 ships, give... 40? (this mission has a long CD, no?)
This balance should reward people a bit for PvPing, and a bit more for trying to give a good performance.
Well both Dil and FM are in demand right now. I would suggest to add a FM box to all the wrapper missions as an selectable option. Similar to the gear box for foundry daily.
We already have DIl farming afkers, so they ll be around one way or the other. However, I don't consider it an exploit if you start a private match to complete the dailies quickly, without interfering with actual pvp matches. Accolade hunters do this all the time, its way faster and doesn't step on anybodies toes. Hence, please keep the wrapper completable by private matches, otherwise the accolade farmers might feel pressured to join public matches. Leading to less fun for them and for us.
the second solution and his doubts about it are completely pointless! doesn't anybody else see it?
I mean every other MMO with serious PVP does reward only wins...
just copy from another game, every other sofware company does it!
25 fleetmarks for a win...5 for losing+maybe a daily that rewards additional 50 each day for 3 wins.
i really can't see the doubts he presents in his post...ridiculous if we look at other games that implement it like that and do not have a leecher afker problem with it
Throw 5 on the standard wrappers. AFkers can make more in the real Fleet Missions. We just want a little something.
Yeah, I'd tend to agree here sadly. Ditto for the STFs actually, it doesn't need to be a huge reward, just something for those who want to play in non-fleet-action ways Make running Fleet Actions the best way to get the fleet marks, but make PVP/STFs a possibility, but less rewarding (as we get dilithium already)
Color me curious... Does anyone have a solid proposal for awarding Fleet Marks (or anything tangible, really) for PvP matches under the existing system (meaning, no new features or tech) that wouldn't be quickly and easily exploitable?
Let's say we stick it in as a PvP Daily, for the sake of argument... Would we not see an influx of AFK'ers and Kill Feeders that would diminish the overall experience of PvP, while quickly working their way to this new Daily reward?
There are two obvious solutions to this:
1) Allow it, and set the rewards very, very low to compensate.
-or-
2) Set the mission condition to "Win A Public Match" (since both losing and private matches can be exploited for mission completion, otherwise).
Solution #1 renders the mission nearly pointless. We may as well give away free Fleet Marks, which more of our players would be able to enjoy without diminishing the PvP experience for those that are actually attempting to play matches.
Solution #2 locks out the rewards to all but an elite portion of a small community of our overall playerbase. Let's face it - you guys aren't just good at PvP, you take it to a level that most of our players are unlikely to be able to even comprehend, much less defeat in a match. And even for the really elite PvPers, you'll on average have a 50% win rate when matched up against other elites, meaning that half the time you run the mission you get nothing.
If I'm overlooking another obvious solution, I'd love to hear your theories on it. Finding a way to reward PvP is a big step towards getting more players to participate in it. It's important. But under our existing system, our options are very limited.
Bort.
Fleet VS Fleet PvP.
Requirements:
Can only be queued as a private PvP
Requires 5 Members from each fleet
Winner and loser are awarded Fleetmarks
20 per winner team member, 10 per loser team member
The point seems to be
-Avoid exploits
-Existing Tech
How about a couple of random drops during a match of fleet marks and a "Need, Greed, Pass" roll.
Eliminates AFKers as they will default to pass. Everyone else can need (as usual ).
Definitely existing tech, other than a fleet mark drop it all exists currently and can be implemented quickly.
The only down side is the randomness. You may get no fleet marks for X number of matches if you are unlucky.
Please feel free to critique / tear my idea to shreds.
actually encourages afk'rs and people to do less but still get rewarded. all you have to do is click need and you have a shot at getting it. i notice a lot of "afk'rs" are actually there just not doing anything
Fleet VS Fleet PvP.
Requirements:
Can only be queued as a private PvP
Requires 5 Members from each fleet
Winner and loser are awarded Fleetmarks
20 per winner team member, 10 per loser team member
k?
Change that to fleeted and it may work. Not enough fleets that have 5 guys on in the same zones, lately anyway, so we network with friends and other fleets for pew pew. It stands to reason only a few fleets would be able to get in on those, thus alienating the smaller fleets.
However, I like the idea of 5 marks for the PVP mission (3 matches.) Maybe put it on a 20 minute CD, but seriously that's not a lot of marks. However, for those of us who would rather PVP it's enough. Hardly exploitable, or at least hardly worth exploiting since the PVE missions reward you many times that in much less time. IE, during the double thing, my tact bop can pull 70+ marks in that convoy one. That takes what, 15 minutes? Even @ 5 kills per match, doing 3 matches would take about the same time, but you would only get 10 marks. Seems pointless to even bother with it.
Oh and wtf are the developers on with their constant nerf to scis? And where the F are the KDF sci ships??? And seriously, what crack were they strung out on when they made the fleet bops (And can they be used in the vault since they are hardly better than shuttles?) Seriously!
Oh and wtf are the developers on with their constant nerf to scis? And where the F are the KDF sci ships??? And seriously, what crack were they strung out on when they made the fleet bops (And can they be used in the vault since they are hardly better than shuttles?) Seriously!
I'm convinced that the Devs simply don't know what they want to do with science and how to balance it, so they just continually nerf it to drive players away. In other words, they only know the dps/tank/heal trinity and as such are frightened by a fourth aspect that technically involves all three. I don't attribute any of the nerfs to malice, but incompetence. It's unfortunate, but nothing else explains the decay of a third of Cryptic's game.
Sooo since it's got to use the existing system and not require any rewrites...why not just go off of what is in the existing pvp results window?
Damage total=X amount of FM. 1 FM for every 30000 damage.
Healing Total=X amount of FM. 1 FM for every 10000 points healed.
Kill Total=1 FM per 5 kills
Death Penalty= -1FM for every 5 deaths.
This could be subject to balancing the actual numbers, but using what the system already counts, you could easily award FMs based on what's already in the system and it cannot be exploited by AFK'ers, you MUST participate to have the numbers in the PVP results window. If you do poorly? Oh well, lower FMs for you, makes you perform better next time.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
<snip>Fleet Marks are used for Fleet Starbases, which is strictly for "PVE Content" at current.
Unfortunately, that statement is simply not true, which is why so many PvPers are complaining about having to do PvE content to get fleet marks.
Fleet Starbases enable players to obtain ships and equipment which is simply better than that obtainable elsewhere (maybe not much but definitely better). Therefore, to have the best chance in PvP, you will want / need to get some of that equipment and currently that means having to grind PvE, just to be able to do the PvP you enjoy.
The user formerly known as DogsBody.
Here before PWE (and hopefully) here long after PWE is gone.
What this game needs is PvP, NOT PWE.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Color me curious... Does anyone have a solid proposal for awarding Fleet Marks (or anything tangible, really) for PvP matches under the existing system (meaning, no new features or tech) that wouldn't be quickly and easily exploitable?
Let's say we stick it in as a PvP Daily, for the sake of argument... Would we not see an influx of AFK'ers and Kill Feeders that would diminish the overall experience of PvP, while quickly working their way to this new Daily reward?
There are two obvious solutions to this:
1) Allow it, and set the rewards very, very low to compensate.
-or-
2) Set the mission condition to "Win A Public Match" (since both losing and private matches can be exploited for mission completion, otherwise).
Solution #1 renders the mission nearly pointless. We may as well give away free Fleet Marks, which more of our players would be able to enjoy without diminishing the PvP experience for those that are actually attempting to play matches.
Solution #2 locks out the rewards to all but an elite portion of a small community of our overall playerbase. Let's face it - you guys aren't just good at PvP, you take it to a level that most of our players are unlikely to be able to even comprehend, much less defeat in a match. And even for the really elite PvPers, you'll on average have a 50% win rate when matched up against other elites, meaning that half the time you run the mission you get nothing.
If I'm overlooking another obvious solution, I'd love to hear your theories on it. Finding a way to reward PvP is a big step towards getting more players to participate in it. It's important. But under our existing system, our options are very limited.
Hey Borticus, good to see you're looking for feedback on this, asking for feedback always helps make your customer feel important...
If time really is limited (as I suspect it is), then I'd say go with your option 2. I really don't think that is as bad an option as you seem to think. Apparently most of your player base don't do PvP, so it wont affect them. For those of us that do, it really isn't that hard to be on the winning side of a match - each match has to have a winning team anyway, so you have a fair chance of just lucking onto a good PuG, even if you are a poor player.
Personally I win more matches than I loose (particularly when on my KDF toons) and I'm only an average PvPer - with the average skill level out there, you don't need to be great to win a match. Yes, if I come up against some of the "experts" from around here, I'll likely loose but its not like every match I'm up against a Panda / TSI premade. If I happen to be on the loosing side and get zero fleet marks, so what? Its not like I (or I expect many of the other regular PvPers) am only there for the rewards, its the contest we desire - rewards are just a nice extra.
Another option I particularly liked, which sounds simple to implement, while not being easy to exploit is this one about the Klingon kill enemy player mission - http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=5299891&postcount=36 only please, please do not take the time to copy it over to Fed side. We all know that the KDF faction in this game is sorely neglected (for reasons that we will not go into here), it would be nice to get a little something that the Feds don't get once in a while, particularly if like this it costs very little dev time.
If time / tech allows, there have been some good suggestions in this thread, which I think you'd do well to check out, mostly based around rewarding FM for team kills or damage / healing done. If not for now and fleet marks, perhaps as part of the future PvP revamp.
Or even this - http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=5310511&postcount=69 I'm not overly fond on basing rewards on damage dealt, as it favours one role over others but it does seem to incorporate a mechanism where longer matches are rewarded better than 2 minute white-washes.
as an avid pvp player id be willing to take a very low amount per match. 1 per match would be a good stopgap for the pvp community why not being too obvious an enticment for afk'rs
maybe even have it tied into the random daily? 5 marks for completetion of the daily?
maybe even both?
Really, just give us something, however small, it is better than the nothing we currently get for our preferred play style.
The user formerly known as DogsBody.
Here before PWE (and hopefully) here long after PWE is gone.
What this game needs is PvP, NOT PWE.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
the second solution and his doubts about it are completely pointless! doesn't anybody else see it?
I mean every other MMO with serious PVP does reward only wins...
just copy from another game, every other sofware company does it!
25 fleetmarks for a win...5 for losing+maybe a daily that rewards additional 50 each day for 3 wins.
i really can't see the doubts he presents in his post...ridiculous if we look at other games that implement it like that and do not have a leecher afker problem with it
I think most PVPers would be okay with the win only situation. I personally don't care how they add it, I just want it added because I really don't want to get on the game and do PVE TRIBBLE. I'll TRIBBLE time on the exchange and some doff TRIBBLE but otherwise it's PVP. Occasionally I'll do a fleet mission but it's not very often and only when I'm teamed with fleet.
Thumbs up for being a douche to the one developer that takes the time to read these forums and answer questions?
He doesn't even play this game anymore by his own admission, so he doesn't give a **** about it. I think he's playing MWO. So apparently he doesn't care about the rest of us who will still keep playing the game. Doesn't give a damn about burned bridges and all.
Some of us actually want to keep playing this game and trying to enjoy it. Keeping an open line to, however limited, the devs is one way to achieve that.
What I don't understand is why people who hate a game just keep playing it or trolling forums.
When I got fed up, I left for several months and did other things.
Then I got pulled back by the desire to fly those ships again. :P
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but here I go.
I know the systems are in place to reward players based on score as they do in Kerrat and fleet actions. Why not use those systems?
In space
Set a baseline score for healing and damage at say 50,000. With mark rewards increased every additional 50,000.
On ground
Set a base score at 5 kills increase every additional 5. (This is because of a wide variation in ground damage and healing scores).
If you afk a match you get nothing. If you just fly in to get blown to bits with no effort your also likely going to get nothing. Its not perfect but it should work and no need to limit it to a daily. And the best part the closer and harder fought matches (at least in space) will yield in general rewards comparable to the challenge you faced.
Thumbs up for being a douche to the one developer that takes the time to read these forums and answer questions?
He doesn't even play this game anymore by his own admission, so he doesn't give a **** about it. I think he's playing MWO. So apparently he doesn't care about the rest of us who will still keep playing the game. Doesn't give a damn about burned bridges and all.
Some of us actually want to keep playing this game and trying to enjoy it. Keeping an open line to, however limited, the devs is one way to achieve that.
What I don't understand is why people who hate a game just keep playing it or trolling forums.
When I got fed up, I left for several months and did other things.
Then I got pulled back by the desire to fly those ships again. :P
Personally I hope Mav gets the itch to come back and fly with us a again.
I do not know Mavario on a personal level. I should be the last to speak on their behalf. And please forgive me if it looks as though I have put words into their mouth. What follows is pure speculation on my part.
When I think about how far Mavario has delved into the mechanics of the game and invested time in writing up aides as well as time spent on the Opvp channel to help grow the PvP community I begin to speculate that despite his frustration there is something about this game that makes Mav passionate.
I sense the invectives that are directed at Bort to a small degree come from the very place that made Mav write those threads that helped nascent PvP'ers like myself. A frustration of seeing potential wasted.
I personally hope Mavario tones it down a little so they will still have a voice on the forums if they decide to come back after a nice break over at MWO. But that is up to Mavario. Then again I plan to join the PvP'ers, like Mav, over at MWO, but the friends I have made here and the fun I have will make me come back... Especially if the Devs ever get around to following through on the promises they have made to improve PvP.
You know bench marks like Oblivion, helped to improve PvE. Maybe it is time for the Devs involved with developing STO's PvP to get out and play some of the games with stronger PvP retention and find out what they are doing right?
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
Color me curious... Does anyone have a solid proposal for awarding Fleet Marks (or anything tangible, really) for PvP matches under the existing system (meaning, no new features or tech) that wouldn't be quickly and easily exploitable?
Let's say we stick it in as a PvP Daily, for the sake of argument... Would we not see an influx of AFK'ers and Kill Feeders that would diminish the overall experience of PvP, while quickly working their way to this new Daily reward?
There are two obvious solutions to this:
1) Allow it, and set the rewards very, very low to compensate.
-or-
2) Set the mission condition to "Win A Public Match" (since both losing and private matches can be exploited for mission completion, otherwise).
Solution #1 renders the mission nearly pointless. We may as well give away free Fleet Marks, which more of our players would be able to enjoy without diminishing the PvP experience for those that are actually attempting to play matches.
Solution #2 locks out the rewards to all but an elite portion of a small community of our overall playerbase. Let's face it - you guys aren't just good at PvP, you take it to a level that most of our players are unlikely to be able to even comprehend, much less defeat in a match. And even for the really elite PvPers, you'll on average have a 50% win rate when matched up against other elites, meaning that half the time you run the mission you get nothing.
If I'm overlooking another obvious solution, I'd love to hear your theories on it. Finding a way to reward PvP is a big step towards getting more players to participate in it. It's important. But under our existing system, our options are very limited.
Solution #2 seems good to me. Since it is based on a public match it is just as likely that you will be teamed with an elite player as your opponents will be teamed with an elite player. Even as a newcomer to PvP I still win my fair share. Earning fleet marks half the time is better than not earning them at all. Hell, earning them any percent of the time is better than nothing. This will not only encourage people to play PvP, it will encourage them to get better at it.
I'd say go ahead and implement #2 option while you work on a solution to fix the current system. AFK'ers really need to be punished. I believe it should be possible to monitor whether or not someone is AFK by simply doing a check to see if he has fired weapons or even turned his ship during a 2 minute span. If no weapons and course adjustments have been made for a 2 min. period, then that person should be kicked from the PvP while bringing in a new player.
the second solution and his doubts about it are completely pointless! doesn't anybody else see it?
I mean every other MMO with serious PVP does reward only wins...
just copy from another game, every other sofware company does it!
25 fleetmarks for a win...5 for losing+maybe a daily that rewards additional 50 each day for 3 wins.
i really can't see the doubts he presents in his post...ridiculous if we look at other games that implement it like that and do not have a leecher afker problem with it
I agree. There is always a losing side...and a winning side. Sure, certain players will win more than others, but that's because they're better at PvP and I see nothing wrong with rewarding them for that. Even if you are new to PvP (like me), the nature of the public queue means you are just as likely to be teamed with strong players as anyone else. It's not like you have to be an "elite" player to win. It is a team battle afterall and not 1v1.
not Sure If Anyone Has Mentioned This But Here I Go.
I Know The Systems Are In Place To Reward Players Based On Score As They Do In Kerrat And Fleet Actions. Why Not Use Those Systems?
In Space
Set A Baseline Score For Healing And Damage At Say 50,000. With Mark Rewards Increased Every Additional 50,000.
On Ground
Set A Base Score At 5 Kills Increase Every Additional 5. (this Is Because Of A Wide Variation In Ground Damage And Healing Scores).
If You Afk A Match You Get Nothing. If You Just Fly In To Get Blown To Bits With No Effort Your Also Likely Going To Get Nothing. Its Not Perfect But It Should Work And No Need To Limit It To A Daily. And The Best Part The Closer And Harder Fought Matches (at Least In Space) Will Yield In General Rewards Comparable To The Challenge You Faced.
Personally I hope Mav gets the itch to come back and fly with us a again.
I do not know Mavario on a personal level. I should be the last to speak on their behalf. And please forgive me if it looks as though I have put words into their mouth. What follows is pure speculation on my part.
When I think about how far Mavario has delved into the mechanics of the game and invested time in writing up aides as well as time spent on the Opvp channel to help grow the PvP community I begin to speculate that despite his frustration there is something about this game that makes Mav passionate.
I sense the invectives that are directed at Bort to a small degree come from the very place that made Mav write those threads that helped nascent PvP'ers like myself. A frustration of seeing potential wasted.
I personally hope Mavario tones it down a little so they will still have a voice on the forums if they decide to come back
^^ Ya this.
As a short time player I feel his frustration, and I thank him for his help, his championing for all PvP'ers, and Thanks to Bort for lending us his ear.
Then the answer is quite simple: No Fleet Marks for PVP right now. Fleet Marks are used for Fleet Starbases, which is strictly for "PVE Content" at current. One would hope it would evolve into having PVP attached to maps on/around Fleet Starbases, but at current, this simply isn't the case.
Second, you guys really need to look into how your "management" operates, and how you prioritize what gets done. Content is very much required, there's no doubt about it. But instead of constantly adding NEW systems (DOffs, Fleet Starbases etc), you should focus on FIXING or REDOING existing systems such as PVP and Crafting.
I don't see why "Season 7" must be story-heavy, and have little or no systems updates AT ALL. According to Stahl, you now have the manpower of 40 people (up from the ~20 or so you had under Atari). Don't presume to tell me that ALL 40 PEOPLE are working on nothing but new story content. Some of these 40 people can surely be working on brainstorming ideas and plans for revamping existing systems in the game?
I would rather have Season 7 launch around "Year 3" in February 2013, with both story-heavy content AND a systems update to EITHER pvp or crafting. More than likely, it seems that Season 7 will launch in December of this year, and no updates whatsoever to either crafting or pvp.
Look at it from the players perspective; Would you want to wait 12 months (or more), to get a revamped and non-broken PVP system, if you love to pvp?
no.. make it equal to the average of PvE fleet missions... however, given the amount of time we have to wait for a PvP match due to last minute modifications like this as an afterthought, it may take longer than a 15 minute Fleet Alert that gives 22 or so fleet marks. I say keep it at 20 fleet marks per CnH, arena, etc.. Most of those last 10-15 minutes anyway in between the LONG LONG waits for the next match.
Also, since you are not putting in any new tech or features, #2 does not address pug leechers who come in just for the points without helping in any way, but for now, unless those leechers will contribute something to PvP matches by making them more frequent.
Put in the fleet marks for option 2 to get PvP matches to become more frequent at the same level as a PvE match (about 20-25 per 15 minutes). Then focusing on making it a better experience.
You might aslo want to put PvP queues into the PvE queue window which will then just be renamed "queues". If you want to make PvP come back, you might try making it more accessible.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
Color me curious... Does anyone have a solid proposal for awarding Fleet Marks (or anything tangible, really) for PvP matches under the existing system (meaning, no new features or tech) that wouldn't be quickly and easily exploitable?
Let's say we stick it in as a PvP Daily, for the sake of argument... Would we not see an influx of AFK'ers and Kill Feeders that would diminish the overall experience of PvP, while quickly working their way to this new Daily reward?
There are two obvious solutions to this:
1) Allow it, and set the rewards very, very low to compensate.
-or-
2) Set the mission condition to "Win A Public Match" (since both losing and private matches can be exploited for mission completion, otherwise).
Solution #1 renders the mission nearly pointless. We may as well give away free Fleet Marks, which more of our players would be able to enjoy without diminishing the PvP experience for those that are actually attempting to play matches.
Solution #2 locks out the rewards to all but an elite portion of a small community of our overall playerbase. Let's face it - you guys aren't just good at PvP, you take it to a level that most of our players are unlikely to be able to even comprehend, much less defeat in a match. And even for the really elite PvPers, you'll on average have a 50% win rate when matched up against other elites, meaning that half the time you run the mission you get nothing.
If I'm overlooking another obvious solution, I'd love to hear your theories on it. Finding a way to reward PvP is a big step towards getting more players to participate in it. It's important. But under our existing system, our options are very limited.
Ok back before dilithium rolled out, we used to get those PvP badges. In each match, depending on your healing and damage scores you got so many badges and/or EC (i think). If you were top damage or healing on the winning team you got something like 30 badges, 20 if on the losing team or something. Obviously you'd have to tone down the numbers of fleet marks awarded compared to the badges.
At some point there were scaling rewards in PvP for how well you did in a match, and this would be a way of co-opting that and applying it to fleet marks. Now I have no idea how it was/is coded, but you could set a threshold for damage or healing where if you are below both you don't get any fleet marks (edit: okay, I didn't see the part where the tech to set thresholds doesn't exist yet).
Ok thresholds are not an option. But here is another option.
In Cap and Holds, you are (or used to be) compensated with greater EC for longer matches as well as how well you place on your team. If this isn't true anymore then you can disregard the rest of this. Would it be possible to award Fleet marks for every PvP match in a way that takes into account the length of the match, your ranking on the team and whether your team won or lost. This used to be the case for those PvP badges. You'd have to balance it so that the overall output doesn't exceed or fall behind the queued PvE Fleet Mark missions. I'd say so that the bottom rung of the winning team and top rung of the losing team are averaging the same number of Fleet marks per hour (or any time period) as someone successfully running Starbase Incursion, Starbase Blockade and Starbase Alerts.
Join Date: Sep 2009
[23:35] Horta deals 1738411 (1538303) Toxic Damage to Centurion Engineer with Corrosive Acid.
Comments
By doing Fleet actions, you can do 3-4 per hour, and each reward about 20 Fleet Marks. That's 60-80 FM per hour.
A PvP match usually last 10 minutes on average, a bit longer for C&H (pug vs pug), + queueing time. Say we can get 4-5 done in one hour?
I suggest to add 7 FM per match, making it possible to earn 28-35 FM in one hour. In addition to this, you could have the "Ship Killer" mission, for killing 10 ships, give... 40? (this mission has a long CD, no?)
This balance should reward people a bit for PvPing, and a bit more for trying to give a good performance.
On the subject here - can you put in "win or come within x kills of winning" conditions?
-Avoid exploits
-Existing Tech
How about a couple of random drops during a match of fleet marks and a "Need, Greed, Pass" roll.
Eliminates AFKers as they will default to pass. Everyone else can need (as usual
Definitely existing tech, other than a fleet mark drop it all exists currently and can be implemented quickly.
The only down side is the randomness. You may get no fleet marks for X number of matches if you are unlucky.
Please feel free to critique / tear my idea to shreds.
Well both Dil and FM are in demand right now. I would suggest to add a FM box to all the wrapper missions as an selectable option. Similar to the gear box for foundry daily.
We already have DIl farming afkers, so they ll be around one way or the other. However, I don't consider it an exploit if you start a private match to complete the dailies quickly, without interfering with actual pvp matches. Accolade hunters do this all the time, its way faster and doesn't step on anybodies toes. Hence, please keep the wrapper completable by private matches, otherwise the accolade farmers might feel pressured to join public matches. Leading to less fun for them and for us.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I mean every other MMO with serious PVP does reward only wins...
just copy from another game, every other sofware company does it!
25 fleetmarks for a win...5 for losing+maybe a daily that rewards additional 50 each day for 3 wins.
i really can't see the doubts he presents in his post...ridiculous if we look at other games that implement it like that and do not have a leecher afker problem with it
Yeah, I'd tend to agree here sadly. Ditto for the STFs actually, it doesn't need to be a huge reward, just something for those who want to play in non-fleet-action ways
Bort.
Fleet VS Fleet PvP.
Requirements:
Can only be queued as a private PvP
Requires 5 Members from each fleet
Winner and loser are awarded Fleetmarks
20 per winner team member, 10 per loser team member
k?
actually encourages afk'rs and people to do less but still get rewarded. all you have to do is click need and you have a shot at getting it. i notice a lot of "afk'rs" are actually there just not doing anything
Change that to fleeted and it may work. Not enough fleets that have 5 guys on in the same zones, lately anyway, so we network with friends and other fleets for pew pew. It stands to reason only a few fleets would be able to get in on those, thus alienating the smaller fleets.
However, I like the idea of 5 marks for the PVP mission (3 matches.) Maybe put it on a 20 minute CD, but seriously that's not a lot of marks. However, for those of us who would rather PVP it's enough. Hardly exploitable, or at least hardly worth exploiting since the PVE missions reward you many times that in much less time. IE, during the double thing, my tact bop can pull 70+ marks in that convoy one. That takes what, 15 minutes? Even @ 5 kills per match, doing 3 matches would take about the same time, but you would only get 10 marks. Seems pointless to even bother with it.
Oh and wtf are the developers on with their constant nerf to scis? And where the F are the KDF sci ships??? And seriously, what crack were they strung out on when they made the fleet bops (And can they be used in the vault since they are hardly better than shuttles?) Seriously!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'm convinced that the Devs simply don't know what they want to do with science and how to balance it, so they just continually nerf it to drive players away. In other words, they only know the dps/tank/heal trinity and as such are frightened by a fourth aspect that technically involves all three. I don't attribute any of the nerfs to malice, but incompetence. It's unfortunate, but nothing else explains the decay of a third of Cryptic's game.
Damage total=X amount of FM. 1 FM for every 30000 damage.
Healing Total=X amount of FM. 1 FM for every 10000 points healed.
Kill Total=1 FM per 5 kills
Death Penalty= -1FM for every 5 deaths.
This could be subject to balancing the actual numbers, but using what the system already counts, you could easily award FMs based on what's already in the system and it cannot be exploited by AFK'ers, you MUST participate to have the numbers in the PVP results window. If you do poorly? Oh well, lower FMs for you, makes you perform better next time.
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
Unfortunately, that statement is simply not true, which is why so many PvPers are complaining about having to do PvE content to get fleet marks.
Fleet Starbases enable players to obtain ships and equipment which is simply better than that obtainable elsewhere (maybe not much but definitely better). Therefore, to have the best chance in PvP, you will want / need to get some of that equipment and currently that means having to grind PvE, just to be able to do the PvP you enjoy.
Here before PWE (and hopefully) here long after PWE is gone.
What this game needs is PvP, NOT PWE.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Hey Borticus, good to see you're looking for feedback on this, asking for feedback always helps make your customer feel important...
If time really is limited (as I suspect it is), then I'd say go with your option 2. I really don't think that is as bad an option as you seem to think. Apparently most of your player base don't do PvP, so it wont affect them. For those of us that do, it really isn't that hard to be on the winning side of a match - each match has to have a winning team anyway, so you have a fair chance of just lucking onto a good PuG, even if you are a poor player.
Personally I win more matches than I loose (particularly when on my KDF toons) and I'm only an average PvPer - with the average skill level out there, you don't need to be great to win a match. Yes, if I come up against some of the "experts" from around here, I'll likely loose but its not like every match I'm up against a Panda / TSI premade. If I happen to be on the loosing side and get zero fleet marks, so what? Its not like I (or I expect many of the other regular PvPers) am only there for the rewards, its the contest we desire - rewards are just a nice extra.
Another option I particularly liked, which sounds simple to implement, while not being easy to exploit is this one about the Klingon kill enemy player mission - http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=5299891&postcount=36 only please, please do not take the time to copy it over to Fed side. We all know that the KDF faction in this game is sorely neglected (for reasons that we will not go into here), it would be nice to get a little something that the Feds don't get once in a while, particularly if like this it costs very little dev time.
If time / tech allows, there have been some good suggestions in this thread, which I think you'd do well to check out, mostly based around rewarding FM for team kills or damage / healing done. If not for now and fleet marks, perhaps as part of the future PvP revamp.
For instance this one - http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=5300081&postcount=41
Or this - http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=5303291&postcount=55
Or even this - http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=5310511&postcount=69 I'm not overly fond on basing rewards on damage dealt, as it favours one role over others but it does seem to incorporate a mechanism where longer matches are rewarded better than 2 minute white-washes.
If all else fails, I'd settle for this:
Really, just give us something, however small, it is better than the nothing we currently get for our preferred play style.
Here before PWE (and hopefully) here long after PWE is gone.
What this game needs is PvP, NOT PWE.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I think most PVPers would be okay with the win only situation. I personally don't care how they add it, I just want it added because I really don't want to get on the game and do PVE TRIBBLE. I'll TRIBBLE time on the exchange and some doff TRIBBLE but otherwise it's PVP. Occasionally I'll do a fleet mission but it's not very often and only when I'm teamed with fleet.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thumbs up for being a douche to the one developer that takes the time to read these forums and answer questions?
He doesn't even play this game anymore by his own admission, so he doesn't give a **** about it. I think he's playing MWO. So apparently he doesn't care about the rest of us who will still keep playing the game. Doesn't give a damn about burned bridges and all.
Some of us actually want to keep playing this game and trying to enjoy it. Keeping an open line to, however limited, the devs is one way to achieve that.
What I don't understand is why people who hate a game just keep playing it or trolling forums.
When I got fed up, I left for several months and did other things.
Then I got pulled back by the desire to fly those ships again. :P
I know the systems are in place to reward players based on score as they do in Kerrat and fleet actions. Why not use those systems?
In space
Set a baseline score for healing and damage at say 50,000. With mark rewards increased every additional 50,000.
On ground
Set a base score at 5 kills increase every additional 5. (This is because of a wide variation in ground damage and healing scores).
If you afk a match you get nothing. If you just fly in to get blown to bits with no effort your also likely going to get nothing. Its not perfect but it should work and no need to limit it to a daily. And the best part the closer and harder fought matches (at least in space) will yield in general rewards comparable to the challenge you faced.
Personally I hope Mav gets the itch to come back and fly with us a again.
I do not know Mavario on a personal level. I should be the last to speak on their behalf. And please forgive me if it looks as though I have put words into their mouth. What follows is pure speculation on my part.
When I think about how far Mavario has delved into the mechanics of the game and invested time in writing up aides as well as time spent on the Opvp channel to help grow the PvP community I begin to speculate that despite his frustration there is something about this game that makes Mav passionate.
I sense the invectives that are directed at Bort to a small degree come from the very place that made Mav write those threads that helped nascent PvP'ers like myself. A frustration of seeing potential wasted.
I personally hope Mavario tones it down a little so they will still have a voice on the forums if they decide to come back after a nice break over at MWO. But that is up to Mavario. Then again I plan to join the PvP'ers, like Mav, over at MWO, but the friends I have made here and the fun I have will make me come back... Especially if the Devs ever get around to following through on the promises they have made to improve PvP.
You know bench marks like Oblivion, helped to improve PvE. Maybe it is time for the Devs involved with developing STO's PvP to get out and play some of the games with stronger PvP retention and find out what they are doing right?
I like the idea! Hopefully cryptic is willing to implement it...
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Solution #2 seems good to me. Since it is based on a public match it is just as likely that you will be teamed with an elite player as your opponents will be teamed with an elite player. Even as a newcomer to PvP I still win my fair share. Earning fleet marks half the time is better than not earning them at all. Hell, earning them any percent of the time is better than nothing. This will not only encourage people to play PvP, it will encourage them to get better at it.
I'd say go ahead and implement #2 option while you work on a solution to fix the current system. AFK'ers really need to be punished. I believe it should be possible to monitor whether or not someone is AFK by simply doing a check to see if he has fired weapons or even turned his ship during a 2 minute span. If no weapons and course adjustments have been made for a 2 min. period, then that person should be kicked from the PvP while bringing in a new player.
@DevolvedOne
I agree. There is always a losing side...and a winning side. Sure, certain players will win more than others, but that's because they're better at PvP and I see nothing wrong with rewarding them for that. Even if you are new to PvP (like me), the nature of the public queue means you are just as likely to be teamed with strong players as anyone else. It's not like you have to be an "elite" player to win. It is a team battle afterall and not 1v1.
@DevolvedOne
+1 .
www.divisionhispana.com
^^ Ya this.
As a short time player I feel his frustration, and I thank him for his help, his championing for all PvP'ers, and Thanks to Bort for lending us his ear.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
no.. make it equal to the average of PvE fleet missions... however, given the amount of time we have to wait for a PvP match due to last minute modifications like this as an afterthought, it may take longer than a 15 minute Fleet Alert that gives 22 or so fleet marks. I say keep it at 20 fleet marks per CnH, arena, etc.. Most of those last 10-15 minutes anyway in between the LONG LONG waits for the next match.
Also, since you are not putting in any new tech or features, #2 does not address pug leechers who come in just for the points without helping in any way, but for now, unless those leechers will contribute something to PvP matches by making them more frequent.
Put in the fleet marks for option 2 to get PvP matches to become more frequent at the same level as a PvE match (about 20-25 per 15 minutes). Then focusing on making it a better experience.
You might aslo want to put PvP queues into the PvE queue window which will then just be renamed "queues". If you want to make PvP come back, you might try making it more accessible.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
I am glad that I can confirm it is only from the forum.
Ok back before dilithium rolled out, we used to get those PvP badges. In each match, depending on your healing and damage scores you got so many badges and/or EC (i think). If you were top damage or healing on the winning team you got something like 30 badges, 20 if on the losing team or something. Obviously you'd have to tone down the numbers of fleet marks awarded compared to the badges.
At some point there were scaling rewards in PvP for how well you did in a match, and this would be a way of co-opting that and applying it to fleet marks. Now I have no idea how it was/is coded, but you could set a threshold for damage or healing where if you are below both you don't get any fleet marks (edit: okay, I didn't see the part where the tech to set thresholds doesn't exist yet).
Ok thresholds are not an option. But here is another option.
In Cap and Holds, you are (or used to be) compensated with greater EC for longer matches as well as how well you place on your team. If this isn't true anymore then you can disregard the rest of this. Would it be possible to award Fleet marks for every PvP match in a way that takes into account the length of the match, your ranking on the team and whether your team won or lost. This used to be the case for those PvP badges. You'd have to balance it so that the overall output doesn't exceed or fall behind the queued PvE Fleet Mark missions. I'd say so that the bottom rung of the winning team and top rung of the losing team are averaging the same number of Fleet marks per hour (or any time period) as someone successfully running Starbase Incursion, Starbase Blockade and Starbase Alerts.
[23:35] Horta deals 1738411 (1538303) Toxic Damage to Centurion Engineer with Corrosive Acid.