The grind, I believe, refers not to the fleet credits - those were pleasantly (to me) surprisingly easy to gather - but rather, the raw amount of input that the starbase requires in terms of fleet marks, dilithium, various resources, and ground-up DOffs - especially the DOffs. I am not looking forward to the monstrous requirements of hundreds of purple DOffs to reach T5, as I'm quite fond of the few purple DOffs that I have, and I'm rather EC-poor.
From what I can tell, it seem like the Doff inputs for the normal projects will remain white, just in ridiculously-high amounts. I really think it's sad, though, that they put in requisition missions to obtain personal equipment and ships, but not for operation assets, which no one is going to be using/buying because of their excessive cost. That's the real problem with the Starbases...there is no good reward. Fleet ships are too costly for most people, buffs are practically worthless at such low levels (might be worth it at Tier V), and the named Doffs that assets require means that most fleets won't even bother.
So, like much of their PvE content, Cryptic has once again created something that gives a poor reward for time invested. No wonder people are getting burned out so easily--there's no light at the end of the tunnel.
From what I can tell, it seem like the Doff inputs for the normal projects will remain white, just in ridiculously-high amounts. I really think it's sad, though, that they put in requisition missions to obtain personal equipment and ships, but not for operation assets, which no one is going to be using/buying because of their excessive cost. That's the real problem with the Starbases...there is no good reward. Fleet ships are too costly for most people, buffs are practically worthless at such low levels (might be worth it at Tier V), and the named Doffs that assets require means that most fleets won't even bother.
So, like much of their PvE content, Cryptic has once again created something that gives a poor reward for time invested. No wonder people are getting burned out so easily--there's no light at the end of the tunnel.
I've seen some missions that require some green officers. I hope you're right. I do not relish the prospects of it increasing.
The ironic thing is that, at least for a while, white sensor officers were more expensive than greens and blues - and only very slightly cheaper than purples. Crazy! I don't know if it's still like that, I think that was around the time a lot of fleets hit tier-2.
As for the rest, I hope that Cryptic comes up with more incentives to increase your starbase level - or at least bring the requirements down a few notches. I think the fleet ships will end up being a wake-up call - my personal theory, knowing nothing of how the sales are working and only little of other 'freemium' games - is that a lot of people would buy more ships with the account-wide unlock whereas they'd probably only buy 1-2 ships ever from the one-time-one-character unlock model. At least, that's how it works for me. I've bought about five ships, and if the new assault cruiser is good (and account-wide) I will probably make that a sixth, and I probably wouldn't have bought more than two - ever - if they were character-only. If that. To date, I have seen exactly ONE fleet ship (fleet heavy cruiser retrofit) flying around out there, and I somehow doubt I'm going to be seeing a lot more any time soon, and not just because most people are at tier-1 or tier-2.
The grind, I believe, refers not to the fleet credits - those were pleasantly (to me) surprisingly easy to gather - but rather, the raw amount of input that the starbase requires in terms of fleet marks, dilithium, various resources, and ground-up DOffs - especially the DOffs. I am not looking forward to the monstrous requirements of hundreds of purple DOffs to reach T5, as I'm quite fond of the few purple DOffs that I have, and I'm rather EC-poor.
Yes, the current starbase system will force the smaller fleets to combine with a larger fleet (Resistance is Futile! ) or they will just stop trying after Tier 2 or Tier 3.
And I do understand this is a marathon, not a sprint...but the current system caters to large fleets and members who have played from Open Beta that can just buy whatever they need off the Exchange when they feel like it. I wish I had those kinda of resources but I have only been playing about 4 months.
Hopefully there will be some updates to add some flexibility in Project Requirements.
2. Grind to pay. Normally as I understand it the idea is grind OR pay. This is grind TO pay. Working your tail off for seven months only to pay $20 per character per ship is something that really stings there. And again, it's not 'grind 100 STFs,' it's 'work for 7-12 months.'
The thing is you don't have to pay real world money. It is not required to have a fleet ship. The premise of this argument is invalid. Since the required fleet modules are not bound, they are available on the exchange for Energy Credits (an in-game currency). As of the time I am writing this reply, there are 271 fleet modules available on the exchange with the lowest price of 5.7 Million Energy Credits).
In normal game play, obtaining 30 million energy credits is not extremely difficult. Selling items picked up in normal play (drops), selling crafted items, and so on. At current, Silver members (who haven't purchased the Bank Cap increase) can STILL access these ships... albeit they may have to buy 1 module at a time (since they have a 10 Million EC limit).
If the fleet modules could only be purchased with Zen, then I would understand the argument. However, this is not the case...
Edit: Even then it is a stretch, since Dilithium (obtained in-game) can be traded for Zen.
If you so choose, this game can be completely free... no real world cost whatsoever. It will boil down to whether or not you choose to wait and save up the EC required, or if you can't wait and think it is worth $20 to get it right now.
Yes, the current starbase system will force the smaller fleets to combine with a larger fleet (Resistance is Futile! ) or they will just stop trying after Tier 2 or Tier 3.
First off, no they won't. It might take 6 months to get from tier 3 to 4, but that isn't something that is wrong. There's no reason why it should be something that is done in a matter of weeks. In fact the whole thing is designed so that it is a long term goal.
There's also nothing wrong with it being quicker for larger fleets, because before this, there was no advantage at all to having a larger one, vs one with just a single member.
Even if they do stop trying, that is also not a problem that needs to be solved, because there's nothing at Tier 5 that you actually need. The fleet ships might be a bit better, but no so much so that you have to have them.
The idea of having the cost scale based on the number of members simply will not work. Doing so means that no fleet will allow alts to join, because each alt means an increase in cost, without an increase in production.
It also means that fleets will be encouraged to cut anyone who doesn't play enough, because they again are increasing the cost without increasing production.
In fact what a scale would do, is make it so the most effective system is to have fleets create a new fleet, with two members, one to run it, pick projects and the like, and a second one that rotates around to all the other members who donate resources then quit. Then you get a SB for the cost of a 2 person fleet, built by 100 people.
Again there seems to be a flawed assumptions here, that SB's are meant to be done quickly and that every fleet regardless of size should be able to finish it in the same amount of time.
Both of those are simply not true, and were never hinted at being true. In fact it was the other way around, and the time it would take, as well as the advantage of large fleets was quite clear.
One thing I will agree with, is that it would be nice to see other ways to gain FC's, but if they were to add in additional methods then they would likely have to rebalance the cost of projects, because people would be able to earn more FC's they they could before.
Yes, the current starbase system will force the smaller fleets to combine with a larger fleet (Resistance is Futile! ) or they will just stop trying after Tier 2 or Tier 3.
And I do understand this is a marathon, not a sprint...but the current system caters to large fleets and members who have played from Open Beta that can just buy whatever they need off the Exchange when they feel like it. I wish I had those kinda of resources but I have only been playing about 4 months.
Hopefully there will be some updates to add some flexibility in Project Requirements.
Thx
Well... reading the Tribble release notes for yesterday, provides some welcome news in regards to fleet advancement.
Fleet Marks will now be available from both Defera and Tholian invasion zones 24/7, with bonuses during fleet marks events
The long awaited officer exchange is going in (trade 1 green for 3 white doffs, 1 blue for 3 greens etc) from your starbase (T1 must be unlocked). The ability to purchase doffs (have specific diciplines (tac/sec/med/sci/etc...AND that are available for fleet projects) will be made available via a Vendor on the starbase (T2 must be unlocked).
Personally, I am VERY excited about these changes.
Fleets with less then 5 should not be allowed to start starbase projects. Its a FLEET STARBASE not your own personal starbase. If they must allow this then there should at least be a increase in resource requirements for single man starbases as a penalty for being greedy and wanting your own private starbase. Imagine if everyone was able to have their own starbase it would strain the server too much, there is no need for that and it needs to be done away with. Creating a fleet with no intention to actually use it as a fleet and just to use as a private bank/starbase is pretty much an exploit anyway, it was never intended for that.
Starbases aren't the problem. The problem lies with the fact that other than starbases, there's jack else to do. We have, STF's, PvE Missions, a few dailies, and Doffing. Oh and PvP but there's hardly any reward for that other than warm fuzzy feelings.
So not only is there not much to do, Starbases only utilise a small part, and even then, an even smaller part of what it utilises. I mean we get Fleet Marks how? A handful of PvE Missions, One really big PvE Mission, One stupidly rare Doff Mission (I've never even seen it), and One, exactly one, really repetitive, really boring daily.
If people could do everything this game has to offer (Exploration missions, crafting, the storyline, PvE, PvP, etc.) I doubt people would be complaining as much.
Honestly, starbases are just a pretty looking rescource sink. I do like them for one reason, and that is that they have made my lame white sensor doffs suddenly worth more
When in doubt, (hehe) c4!
This sig dedicated to the many random objects the Mythbusters crew has blow to smitherines
We have, STF's, PvE Missions, a few dailies, and Doffing. Oh and PvP but there's hardly any reward for that other than warm fuzzy feelings.
I make over 17,000 Dilithium in 2-2.5 hours every day doing some of those things. I'm certainly getting more out if it then just "warm fuzzy feelings."
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
I make over 17,000 Dilithium in 2-2.5 hours every day doing some of those things. I'm certainly getting more out if it then just "warm fuzzy feelings."
Yes, you can, but other than Dil, what other incentives do you have? You can get Dil from almost anything else, it's not a unique reward is what I was trying to say. I can do dailies for the same amount of time, get the same amount of Dil, and loot, without having to hear "Lol, PWND, freaking n00b." even once. :P
Well... reading the Tribble release notes for yesterday, provides some welcome news in regards to fleet advancement.
Fleet Marks will now be available from both Defera and Tholian invasion zones 24/7, with bonuses during fleet marks events
The long awaited officer exchange is going in (trade 1 green for 3 white doffs, 1 blue for 3 greens etc) from your starbase (T1 must be unlocked). The ability to purchase doffs (have specific diciplines (tac/sec/med/sci/etc...AND that are available for fleet projects) will be made available via a Vendor on the starbase (T2 must be unlocked).
Personally, I am VERY excited about these changes.
Well... reading the Tribble release notes for yesterday, provides some welcome news in regards to fleet advancement.
Fleet Marks will now be available from both Defera and Tholian invasion zones 24/7, with bonuses during fleet marks events
The long awaited officer exchange is going in (trade 1 green for 3 white doffs, 1 blue for 3 greens etc) from your starbase (T1 must be unlocked). The ability to purchase doffs (have specific diciplines (tac/sec/med/sci/etc...AND that are available for fleet projects) will be made available via a Vendor on the starbase (T2 must be unlocked).
Personally, I am VERY excited about these changes.
First off, no they won't. It might take 6 months to get from tier 3 to 4, but that isn't something that is wrong. There's no reason why it should be something that is done in a matter of weeks. In fact the whole thing is designed so that it is a long term goal.
There's also nothing wrong with it being quicker for larger fleets, because before this, there was no advantage at all to having a larger one, vs one with just a single member.
Even if they do stop trying, that is also not a problem that needs to be solved, because there's nothing at Tier 5 that you actually need. The fleet ships might be a bit better, but no so much so that you have to have them.
The idea of having the cost scale based on the number of members simply will not work. Doing so means that no fleet will allow alts to join, because each alt means an increase in cost, without an increase in production.
It also means that fleets will be encouraged to cut anyone who doesn't play enough, because they again are increasing the cost without increasing production.
In fact what a scale would do, is make it so the most effective system is to have fleets create a new fleet, with two members, one to run it, pick projects and the like, and a second one that rotates around to all the other members who donate resources then quit. Then you get a SB for the cost of a 2 person fleet, built by 100 people.
Again there seems to be a flawed assumptions here, that SB's are meant to be done quickly and that every fleet regardless of size should be able to finish it in the same amount of time.
Both of those are simply not true, and were never hinted at being true. In fact it was the other way around, and the time it would take, as well as the advantage of large fleets was quite clear.
One thing I will agree with, is that it would be nice to see other ways to gain FC's, but if they were to add in additional methods then they would likely have to rebalance the cost of projects, because people would be able to earn more FC's they they could before.
Save me the story of 7+ months to build a Starbase....I am fully aware of that and agree, got the t-shirt
I am in a small to medium size fleet.... we just don't have the resources to keep things moving. I have buddies in larger fleets, they just buy whatever they need off the exchange at whatever crazy price. We dont have that ability and progress just stalls out to the point folks are losing interest.
I would like to see some flexibility in how we meet requirements (ie use 5 blue doffs instead of one pink doff for a project).
If people could do everything this game has to offer (Exploration missions, crafting, the storyline, PvE, PvP, etc.) I doubt people would be complaining as much.
Sure they would, people will always complain on a video game form. That's as certain as death and taxes.
Also what exactly is stopping people from doing those things now? All those things do offer some sort of reward, be it just EC, or Expertise, both of which can be used to help build a Starbase.
I would like to see some flexibility in how we meet requirements (ie use 5 blue doffs instead of one pink doff for a project).
They're putting in some flexibility, at least in the form of letting you downgrade your Doff's in exchange for a number of lower quality ones, plus ways of buying other Doff's.
More and more it seems to me that peoples biggest problem with the SB system, is that they want it all done NOW!!! and quite frankly sound a bit like Veruca Salt. The OP of this thread talked about how he would grind for hours every day... And was getting tired of it.
Well then don't grind every day, there's no reason to do so. Sure it will take you longer to get your SB to Tier whatever, but there's no real rush here. The best thing you can get is a slightly better ship, and maybe some ground gear. That's hardly worth grinding yourself silly over. If the grind is killing you, the rewards Will Not make it worth it IMO.
Fleets with less then 5 should not be allowed to start starbase projects. Its a FLEET STARBASE not your own personal starbase. If they must allow this then there should at least be a increase in resource requirements for single man starbases as a penalty for being greedy and wanting your own private starbase. Imagine if everyone was able to have their own starbase it would strain the server too much, there is no need for that and it needs to be done away with. Creating a fleet with no intention to actually use it as a fleet and just to use as a private bank/starbase is pretty much an exploit anyway, it was never intended for that.
LMAO
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
It is my opinion that "this must not be allowed !" and " My way or the highway" attitudes are one of the aspects keeping some players out of those same Fleets.
The StarBases are intended to be a resource sink. If a lone player, or a small group wants to attempt it, Cryptic hasn't denied them the option. More bases, more sinks.
As far as making them more expensive for lone players, or small teams... if larger fleets are finding it difficult, wouldn't you think that a smaller Fleet find the grind even harder ?
Well then don't grind every day, there's no reason to do so. Sure it will take you longer to get your SB to Tier whatever, but there's no real rush here. The best thing you can get is a slightly better ship, and maybe some ground gear. That's hardly worth grinding yourself silly over. If the grind is killing you, the rewards Will Not make it worth it IMO.
While I certainly understand and even approve of your position - I've stepped back recently, in part because I have another game to focus on - it should be acknowledged that this approach turns an already discouragingly slow rate of progress into something that might not ever be completed before the player leaves or the game itself ends. Why even bother, if you'll never see any results from your work?
People in small fleets are grinding hard because it's already going to take "forever", with their limited resources, to get what they want. It's already too slow, and you want them to go slower? Many won't listen, and end up burning out completely.
What I have a problem with is the members of a small fleet (and I have several friends in 1 to 3 man fleets (nothin but love for ya guys!)) . expecting that they should be able to get a Tx Starbase with all the goodies in the same amount of time as a medium to large fleet.
I'm not expecting or wanting to, but we're hitting the wall just reaching tier 1 of each category. If it exponentially gets worse, we'll be lucky to have hit tier 3 by the time the next "fleet holding" type is released to suck even more resources.
Seriously, I have no illusion that if I wanted a Great Wall of China, that I could accomplish the task on my own... If you were to build your own house... would it not take longer for 1 person to do it, as compared to a 10 man contracting crew? Would it not become all consuming, or time/cost prohibitive to have 1 person do it on their own?
Then why do they allow fleets of 1 to operate?
Realistically a star base would take many _thousands_ of persons actively working on it to complete so even 50 active members is still "unrealistic".
I see what you're saying but it's a game, and as such they don't have to be realistic about everything.
Smaller fleets are handicapped for not wanting to be in a fleet with random Joe's they don't know.
Scaled Costs? Really? Go to your local home builder and say "Hey, I would like the 8 Bedroom Mansion, but want to pay only for a Bungalow". That makes absolutely no sense... and as the small fleets are fond of saying, it would be the death of (now) large fleets. Why be in a large fleet, when you can do it on your own, for far cheaper. Because make no mistake, large fleets might have numbers... but the count that really matters is the number of ACTIVE players.
Fortunately it isn't real life. If they want to make it so smaller fleets aren't penalised for being just that, then scaling of requirements is a viable solution. Also, I said _per member scaling_. So for each member you still have to input y amount, 10 member fleet then 10y amount required.
Like I said, want to make bigger fleets worth being in? they can make it so that costs per member go down the bigger the fleet gets. Still big horde benefit without handicapping smaller fleets.
Per member scaling is likely to trigger other problems or encourage even more annoying things. Everyone will want to remove alts to spend up construction, then people would switch fleets and so on to accelerate building. Which would turn into even more grinding to put people off just playing the game.
There's no requirement to rush starbase projects. Why not just chip away at it slowly rather than trying to drive yourself nuts grinding projects.
I understand that it is a game, and not everything is true to life (I do not actually believe I am a Star Fleet Vice Admiral, in command of a starship). But, asking for some reality is not asking too much.
As others have said, resource scaling will cause other issues... examples include...
1) Kicking Alts, and Casual Players (i.e. player inactive for a week ... kick em, our costs will go down).
2) Fracturing large fleets into small fleets. If I can take a 100 man fleet, and make 10 fleets that can simultaneously build starbases at the exact same rate, and thereby having an explosion of available provisions (instead of being gated to project times)... I could make 50 provisions in a day, instead of 5. Or if we happen to be dilithium rich, start fleet hopping the players and make hundreds of provisions in a single day.
3) The one man T-5 Starbase... ok sorry, this just doesn't make sense to me at all. Even in Never-Never land. Peter Pan would even go WTF?
No rush, it's just that one can't really save up for other things that require dilithium or particular commodities or just your personal doff numbers/qualities and keep the fleet ticking over.
Where are we going to get 125 of a particular Doff just to finish one project? Between 10 members that's still a lot and that's only part of a T2 level project. There was 125 required of another type too. What if it gets to 300 of a particular DOFF between 10 members for just one part of one project?
How are new players in a small fleet going to build up their toons DOFF numbers and grind up their person purple quality doff numbers when all the white doff fodder is going into the star base projects?
All I'm saying is that requiring smaller fleets to grind out the same amount of stuff that a 200+ member fleet has to is a little unfair.
To inject a little bit of reality, why would/should a base for 10 members need the same amount of construction materials as a base for 200 members? Surely more quarters, bigger common rooms, space docks etc are needed for bigger fleets?
Maybe lower input requirements for smaller fleet but lengthen projects build times for them? Still take as long or longer (however much to compensate) and members still have a chance to grind the fleet stuff and get other things in game not attached to fleet stuff directly.
Yes it's a sink, but a sink biased towards bigger fleets. Therefore anyone in a small fleet is being artificially handicapped for no real reason.
No rush, it's just that one can't really save up for other things that require dilithium or particular commodities or just your personal doff numbers/qualities and keep the fleet ticking over.
Where are we going to get 125 of a particular Doff just to finish one project? Between 10 members that's still a lot and that's only part of a T2 level project. There was 125 required of another type too. What if it gets to 300 of a particular DOFF between 10 members for just one part of one project?
How are new players in a small fleet going to build up their toons DOFF numbers and grind up their person purple quality doff numbers when all the white doff fodder is going into the star base projects?
All I'm saying is that requiring smaller fleets to grind out the same amount of stuff that a 200+ member fleet has to is a little unfair.
To inject a little bit of reality, why would/should a base for 10 members need the same amount of construction materials as a base for 200 members? Surely more quarters, bigger common rooms, space docks etc are needed for bigger fleets?
Maybe lower input requirements for smaller fleet but lengthen projects build times for them? Still take as long or longer (however much to compensate) and members still have a chance to grind the fleet stuff and get other things in game not attached to fleet stuff directly.
Yes it's a sink, but a sink biased towards bigger fleets. Therefore anyone in a small fleet is being artificially handicapped for no real reason.
This is exactly why I proposed a alternate Fleet system for smaller fleets in a thread a few days ago.
Instead of us making the same starbase as everyone else, why not let smaller fleets be stationed on existing Hubs (they did it in canon). Since the NPCs are already there, thats less things to unlock. So primary grinding wouldn't be on construction and expansion, but provisioning and research.
On top of it, it gives Fleets the freedom to choose their location and maybe even decor.
Casual fleets can remain casual and go at their pace without peer pressure. And 1-man fleets end up with personal quarters on a station, instead of having an entire Space Station to themselves.
Going from tier 2 to 3 for one category with the 1k granting project takes 15,000 marks and 3,000 doffs. Good luck to any fleet with fewer than 100 active members.
Now that I am doing some of the T2 upgrades - this thing will crush small fleets <10
just the comm array - 1800 marks - 80 doffs - 5500!! comm arrays at $150 ec each and the vendor - 2500 shield array 108,000 dilth
then you have the fabricator + the shipyard - both with equal requirements
Then you have the joy of the upgrade itself
I think all told to fully get to T2 the cost in EC alone is at least 600 million(doffs being the biggest cost) - that does not include the almost 1 million dilth
and then it goes up 50% to T3
to tier 3 : - est 1 billion EC and 1.7 million dilth - ok heck that is a lot of Jem Bugs - Tholian ships - D'kora's - plus dilth to c-store ships - a couple oddys too
I wish I could go on past T2 but it does not make economic sense - should have stopped at tier1
p.s I may be selling a fully complete tier 2 starbase/fleet for say the low price of $900 million EC(includes dilth cost+ cost of grinding) in the very near future - ha ha
In thought of my previous post - is there ant math/accountant genius out the that could calculate just the EC cost of getting to T2 - bases on resources and the going rate for common doffs up to this point
general security - 90k
general sci - 50k
general med 90k
general eng 60k
operations 100k
resourse costs based on cargo trader - shipyard cost of consumables
some people like crunch numbers as a hobby/challege - I don't and I generally suck at math
Some people might say the doffs are free - well if you waited that long to get them it would be 10 years - but anyways - I am talking about total "opportuanty" cost - as in if you just sold every doff instead of flushing it down the starbase drain - how much would you have
The average price for white doffs will go down the toilet after today's patch, except for the very specific jobs (so far I avoided projects that require them).
But yeah all in all.... it's just not worth it for small fleets. For bigs fleets it works, but for small ones it's not worth it. I'm thinking about dissolving my fleet of 3 friends and joining a big one instead. But how is the provision situation in the bigger fleets now? Is it a problem like many people predicted early on? I'd love to hear some experiences with that.
The average price for white doffs will go down the toilet after today's patch, except for the very specific jobs (so far I avoided projects that require them).
But yeah all in all.... it's just not worth it for small fleets. For bigs fleets it works, but for small ones it's not worth it. I'm thinking about dissolving my fleet of 3 friends and joining a big one instead. But how is the provision situation in the bigger fleets now? Is it a problem like many people predicted early on? I'd love to hear some experiences with that.
since I have about 1500 greens in storage I really hope their prices go up
First off, no they won't. It might take 6 months to get from tier 3 to 4, but that isn't something that is wrong. There's no reason why it should be something that is done in a matter of weeks. In fact the whole thing is designed so that it is a long term goal.
There's also nothing wrong with it being quicker for larger fleets, because before this, there was no advantage at all to having a larger one, vs one with just a single member.
Even if they do stop trying, that is also not a problem that needs to be solved, because there's nothing at Tier 5 that you actually need. The fleet ships might be a bit better, but no so much so that you have to have them.
The idea of having the cost scale based on the number of members simply will not work. Doing so means that no fleet will allow alts to join, because each alt means an increase in cost, without an increase in production.
It also means that fleets will be encouraged to cut anyone who doesn't play enough, because they again are increasing the cost without increasing production.
In fact what a scale would do, is make it so the most effective system is to have fleets create a new fleet, with two members, one to run it, pick projects and the like, and a second one that rotates around to all the other members who donate resources then quit. Then you get a SB for the cost of a 2 person fleet, built by 100 people.
Again there seems to be a flawed assumptions here, that SB's are meant to be done quickly and that every fleet regardless of size should be able to finish it in the same amount of time.
Both of those are simply not true, and were never hinted at being true. In fact it was the other way around, and the time it would take, as well as the advantage of large fleets was quite clear.
One thing I will agree with, is that it would be nice to see other ways to gain FC's, but if they were to add in additional methods then they would likely have to rebalance the cost of projects, because people would be able to earn more FC's they they could before.
^^ this, there's no prize for finishing first. Large fleets may be able to burn through the tiers faster, but then they have to do so many more provisioning projects or they'll face mass walk outs. It may take a smaller fleet longer to get there, but there will be far less infighting and rage quitting over provisions.
- Redneck Academy - / Legio XVI 'CARDASSIA'
All generalizations are false, including this one.
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Comments
From what I can tell, it seem like the Doff inputs for the normal projects will remain white, just in ridiculously-high amounts. I really think it's sad, though, that they put in requisition missions to obtain personal equipment and ships, but not for operation assets, which no one is going to be using/buying because of their excessive cost. That's the real problem with the Starbases...there is no good reward. Fleet ships are too costly for most people, buffs are practically worthless at such low levels (might be worth it at Tier V), and the named Doffs that assets require means that most fleets won't even bother.
So, like much of their PvE content, Cryptic has once again created something that gives a poor reward for time invested. No wonder people are getting burned out so easily--there's no light at the end of the tunnel.
I've seen some missions that require some green officers. I hope you're right. I do not relish the prospects of it increasing.
The ironic thing is that, at least for a while, white sensor officers were more expensive than greens and blues - and only very slightly cheaper than purples. Crazy! I don't know if it's still like that, I think that was around the time a lot of fleets hit tier-2.
As for the rest, I hope that Cryptic comes up with more incentives to increase your starbase level - or at least bring the requirements down a few notches. I think the fleet ships will end up being a wake-up call - my personal theory, knowing nothing of how the sales are working and only little of other 'freemium' games - is that a lot of people would buy more ships with the account-wide unlock whereas they'd probably only buy 1-2 ships ever from the one-time-one-character unlock model. At least, that's how it works for me. I've bought about five ships, and if the new assault cruiser is good (and account-wide) I will probably make that a sixth, and I probably wouldn't have bought more than two - ever - if they were character-only. If that. To date, I have seen exactly ONE fleet ship (fleet heavy cruiser retrofit) flying around out there, and I somehow doubt I'm going to be seeing a lot more any time soon, and not just because most people are at tier-1 or tier-2.
Yes, the current starbase system will force the smaller fleets to combine with a larger fleet (Resistance is Futile!
And I do understand this is a marathon, not a sprint...but the current system caters to large fleets and members who have played from Open Beta that can just buy whatever they need off the Exchange when they feel like it. I wish I had those kinda of resources but I have only been playing about 4 months.
Hopefully there will be some updates to add some flexibility in Project Requirements.
Thx
Delirium Tremens
Tier 4 Starbase, Tier 3 Embassy
http://dtfleet.com/
The thing is you don't have to pay real world money. It is not required to have a fleet ship. The premise of this argument is invalid. Since the required fleet modules are not bound, they are available on the exchange for Energy Credits (an in-game currency). As of the time I am writing this reply, there are 271 fleet modules available on the exchange with the lowest price of 5.7 Million Energy Credits).
In normal game play, obtaining 30 million energy credits is not extremely difficult. Selling items picked up in normal play (drops), selling crafted items, and so on. At current, Silver members (who haven't purchased the Bank Cap increase) can STILL access these ships... albeit they may have to buy 1 module at a time (since they have a 10 Million EC limit).
If the fleet modules could only be purchased with Zen, then I would understand the argument. However, this is not the case...
Edit: Even then it is a stretch, since Dilithium (obtained in-game) can be traded for Zen.
If you so choose, this game can be completely free... no real world cost whatsoever. It will boil down to whether or not you choose to wait and save up the EC required, or if you can't wait and think it is worth $20 to get it right now.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
First off, no they won't. It might take 6 months to get from tier 3 to 4, but that isn't something that is wrong. There's no reason why it should be something that is done in a matter of weeks. In fact the whole thing is designed so that it is a long term goal.
There's also nothing wrong with it being quicker for larger fleets, because before this, there was no advantage at all to having a larger one, vs one with just a single member.
Even if they do stop trying, that is also not a problem that needs to be solved, because there's nothing at Tier 5 that you actually need. The fleet ships might be a bit better, but no so much so that you have to have them.
The idea of having the cost scale based on the number of members simply will not work. Doing so means that no fleet will allow alts to join, because each alt means an increase in cost, without an increase in production.
It also means that fleets will be encouraged to cut anyone who doesn't play enough, because they again are increasing the cost without increasing production.
In fact what a scale would do, is make it so the most effective system is to have fleets create a new fleet, with two members, one to run it, pick projects and the like, and a second one that rotates around to all the other members who donate resources then quit. Then you get a SB for the cost of a 2 person fleet, built by 100 people.
Again there seems to be a flawed assumptions here, that SB's are meant to be done quickly and that every fleet regardless of size should be able to finish it in the same amount of time.
Both of those are simply not true, and were never hinted at being true. In fact it was the other way around, and the time it would take, as well as the advantage of large fleets was quite clear.
One thing I will agree with, is that it would be nice to see other ways to gain FC's, but if they were to add in additional methods then they would likely have to rebalance the cost of projects, because people would be able to earn more FC's they they could before.
Well... reading the Tribble release notes for yesterday, provides some welcome news in regards to fleet advancement.
Fleet Marks will now be available from both Defera and Tholian invasion zones 24/7, with bonuses during fleet marks events
The long awaited officer exchange is going in (trade 1 green for 3 white doffs, 1 blue for 3 greens etc) from your starbase (T1 must be unlocked). The ability to purchase doffs (have specific diciplines (tac/sec/med/sci/etc...AND that are available for fleet projects) will be made available via a Vendor on the starbase (T2 must be unlocked).
Personally, I am VERY excited about these changes.
Edit: Link to post http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=344941
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
So not only is there not much to do, Starbases only utilise a small part, and even then, an even smaller part of what it utilises. I mean we get Fleet Marks how? A handful of PvE Missions, One really big PvE Mission, One stupidly rare Doff Mission (I've never even seen it), and One, exactly one, really repetitive, really boring daily.
If people could do everything this game has to offer (Exploration missions, crafting, the storyline, PvE, PvP, etc.) I doubt people would be complaining as much.
This sig dedicated to the many random objects the Mythbusters crew has blow to smitherines
Yes, you can, but other than Dil, what other incentives do you have? You can get Dil from almost anything else, it's not a unique reward is what I was trying to say. I can do dailies for the same amount of time, get the same amount of Dil, and loot, without having to hear "Lol, PWND, freaking n00b." even once. :P
Very cool...that will help a lot...I think!
Delirium Tremens
Tier 4 Starbase, Tier 3 Embassy
http://dtfleet.com/
At least that is good news.
Save me the story of 7+ months to build a Starbase....I am fully aware of that and agree, got the t-shirt
I am in a small to medium size fleet.... we just don't have the resources to keep things moving. I have buddies in larger fleets, they just buy whatever they need off the exchange at whatever crazy price. We dont have that ability and progress just stalls out to the point folks are losing interest.
I would like to see some flexibility in how we meet requirements (ie use 5 blue doffs instead of one pink doff for a project).
Thx
Delirium Tremens
Tier 4 Starbase, Tier 3 Embassy
http://dtfleet.com/
Sure they would, people will always complain on a video game form. That's as certain as death and taxes.
Also what exactly is stopping people from doing those things now? All those things do offer some sort of reward, be it just EC, or Expertise, both of which can be used to help build a Starbase.
They're putting in some flexibility, at least in the form of letting you downgrade your Doff's in exchange for a number of lower quality ones, plus ways of buying other Doff's.
More and more it seems to me that peoples biggest problem with the SB system, is that they want it all done NOW!!! and quite frankly sound a bit like Veruca Salt. The OP of this thread talked about how he would grind for hours every day... And was getting tired of it.
Well then don't grind every day, there's no reason to do so. Sure it will take you longer to get your SB to Tier whatever, but there's no real rush here. The best thing you can get is a slightly better ship, and maybe some ground gear. That's hardly worth grinding yourself silly over. If the grind is killing you, the rewards Will Not make it worth it IMO.
LMAO
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
It is my opinion that "this must not be allowed !" and " My way or the highway" attitudes are one of the aspects keeping some players out of those same Fleets.
The StarBases are intended to be a resource sink. If a lone player, or a small group wants to attempt it, Cryptic hasn't denied them the option. More bases, more sinks.
As far as making them more expensive for lone players, or small teams... if larger fleets are finding it difficult, wouldn't you think that a smaller Fleet find the grind even harder ?
People in small fleets are grinding hard because it's already going to take "forever", with their limited resources, to get what they want. It's already too slow, and you want them to go slower? Many won't listen, and end up burning out completely.
Then why do they allow fleets of 1 to operate?
Realistically a star base would take many _thousands_ of persons actively working on it to complete so even 50 active members is still "unrealistic".
I see what you're saying but it's a game, and as such they don't have to be realistic about everything.
Smaller fleets are handicapped for not wanting to be in a fleet with random Joe's they don't know.
Fortunately it isn't real life. If they want to make it so smaller fleets aren't penalised for being just that, then scaling of requirements is a viable solution. Also, I said _per member scaling_. So for each member you still have to input y amount, 10 member fleet then 10y amount required.
Like I said, want to make bigger fleets worth being in? they can make it so that costs per member go down the bigger the fleet gets. Still big horde benefit without handicapping smaller fleets.
There's no requirement to rush starbase projects. Why not just chip away at it slowly rather than trying to drive yourself nuts grinding projects.
I understand that it is a game, and not everything is true to life (I do not actually believe I am a Star Fleet Vice Admiral, in command of a starship). But, asking for some reality is not asking too much.
As others have said, resource scaling will cause other issues... examples include...
1) Kicking Alts, and Casual Players (i.e. player inactive for a week ... kick em, our costs will go down).
2) Fracturing large fleets into small fleets. If I can take a 100 man fleet, and make 10 fleets that can simultaneously build starbases at the exact same rate, and thereby having an explosion of available provisions (instead of being gated to project times)... I could make 50 provisions in a day, instead of 5. Or if we happen to be dilithium rich, start fleet hopping the players and make hundreds of provisions in a single day.
3) The one man T-5 Starbase... ok sorry, this just doesn't make sense to me at all. Even in Never-Never land. Peter Pan would even go WTF?
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Where are we going to get 125 of a particular Doff just to finish one project? Between 10 members that's still a lot and that's only part of a T2 level project. There was 125 required of another type too. What if it gets to 300 of a particular DOFF between 10 members for just one part of one project?
How are new players in a small fleet going to build up their toons DOFF numbers and grind up their person purple quality doff numbers when all the white doff fodder is going into the star base projects?
All I'm saying is that requiring smaller fleets to grind out the same amount of stuff that a 200+ member fleet has to is a little unfair.
To inject a little bit of reality, why would/should a base for 10 members need the same amount of construction materials as a base for 200 members? Surely more quarters, bigger common rooms, space docks etc are needed for bigger fleets?
Maybe lower input requirements for smaller fleet but lengthen projects build times for them? Still take as long or longer (however much to compensate) and members still have a chance to grind the fleet stuff and get other things in game not attached to fleet stuff directly.
Yes it's a sink, but a sink biased towards bigger fleets. Therefore anyone in a small fleet is being artificially handicapped for no real reason.
and the 1 man fleets will get there in time
This is exactly why I proposed a alternate Fleet system for smaller fleets in a thread a few days ago.
Instead of us making the same starbase as everyone else, why not let smaller fleets be stationed on existing Hubs (they did it in canon). Since the NPCs are already there, thats less things to unlock. So primary grinding wouldn't be on construction and expansion, but provisioning and research.
On top of it, it gives Fleets the freedom to choose their location and maybe even decor.
Casual fleets can remain casual and go at their pace without peer pressure. And 1-man fleets end up with personal quarters on a station, instead of having an entire Space Station to themselves.
they EARN it
So how's your grinding going??
Now that I am doing some of the T2 upgrades - this thing will crush small fleets <10
just the comm array - 1800 marks - 80 doffs - 5500!! comm arrays at $150 ec each and the vendor - 2500 shield array 108,000 dilth
then you have the fabricator + the shipyard - both with equal requirements
Then you have the joy of the upgrade itself
I think all told to fully get to T2 the cost in EC alone is at least 600 million(doffs being the biggest cost) - that does not include the almost 1 million dilth
and then it goes up 50% to T3
to tier 3 : - est 1 billion EC and 1.7 million dilth - ok heck that is a lot of Jem Bugs - Tholian ships - D'kora's - plus dilth to c-store ships - a couple oddys too
I wish I could go on past T2 but it does not make economic sense - should have stopped at tier1
p.s I may be selling a fully complete tier 2 starbase/fleet for say the low price of $900 million EC(includes dilth cost+ cost of grinding) in the very near future - ha ha
security officer avg - 280k
assualt - 190k
armory - 160k
astro - 300k
sensor - 1 million
fabrication - 400k
quater - 300k
energy weapons 150k
general security - 90k
general sci - 50k
general med 90k
general eng 60k
operations 100k
resourse costs based on cargo trader - shipyard cost of consumables
some people like crunch numbers as a hobby/challege - I don't and I generally suck at math
Some people might say the doffs are free - well if you waited that long to get them it would be 10 years - but anyways - I am talking about total "opportuanty" cost - as in if you just sold every doff instead of flushing it down the starbase drain - how much would you have
But yeah all in all.... it's just not worth it for small fleets. For bigs fleets it works, but for small ones it's not worth it. I'm thinking about dissolving my fleet of 3 friends and joining a big one instead. But how is the provision situation in the bigger fleets now? Is it a problem like many people predicted early on? I'd love to hear some experiences with that.
since I have about 1500 greens in storage I really hope their prices go up
^^ this, there's no prize for finishing first. Large fleets may be able to burn through the tiers faster, but then they have to do so many more provisioning projects or they'll face mass walk outs. It may take a smaller fleet longer to get there, but there will be far less infighting and rage quitting over provisions.
All generalizations are false, including this one.
- Mark Twain