although, if that executive order is verbatim, there is nothing stopping starfleet or any of its covert branches from installing a cloaking device that was already complete prior to the issuing of the order, does it? i mean, if the device is already complete and only needs installation that is not really "creating" cloaking technology, merely activating it.
Sure, if you have evidence that was the case in 2394.
In 2409 gametime the only ships that fall under such a "grandfather" clause appear to be the Defiant_r and AGT galaxy-X.
Any new ship with cloaking released today and moving forward would be in violation of the executive order of 2394.
oh no, don't get me wrong. personally i would rather the uniqueness of certain abilities in factions (like battlecloak). it's just that, let's face it, we already have precedents that violate the executive order as it is in the form of mass numbers of defiant retrofits, and starfleet somehow managing to get their hands on blueprints for a galaxy class ship that exists in an alternate timeline. as it stands, people might as well learn to try and live with the possibility. after all, a wise saying goes "hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst".
The only reason that we have multiples of the Defiant-R and AGT galaxy is that multple players bought the vessels out of the Cstore. You are putting real life player multiplicity as reason for breaking the executive order in this case.
Cryptic can't say ,"we only made one Defiant and one AGT, who wants it?" becuase it would TRIBBLE off the fans who didn't buy it for the highest bid.
They made them purchaseble and therefore they exist in large numbers due to being purchased only. Not becuase starfleet made them in large numbers, only becuase Cryptic sold them.
Which is why, I guess, so many Fed only players want battlecloak. But as our host, Roach, has pointed out so many Fed only players are so put off by how the KDF is portrayed in the game that they would die before they roll a KDF to see what the true trade off is for battlecloak.
my B'rel has the hull of ten Starfleet cruisers, and the striking power of a hundred Starfleet escort ships because it flies the heart of virtue.
what do I sacrifice to command a Klingon bird of prey? we give up fear, pity, remorse. we give up expectations for better tomorrows, and any rational sense of self-preservation.
why are there so many commander-level Norgh birds of prey, but a much lower number of Hegh'ta birds of prey amongst those at endgame? if it were so great, why do so many people choose the Vo'quv, Varanus, Karfi for science captains? or the siege destroyer or raptor for tactical?
the bird of prey, as great as it is, requires sacrifices that many cannot understand until you've run it through many scenarios. and I agree... if you can't make the sacrifice to join the KDF for the B'rel or Hegh'ta, how can you expect it to end well with a Starfleet bird of prey?
besides, it would be another toy for Starfleet, in a time where Klingons have barely any meat on the bones of the faction. yes, Starfleet justice, I know.
of course, Starfleet will get their new toy, and the game will keep on its merry path.
I am waiting for CBS to yank the license away. If and when we see Fed BoP, and battle cloaks. I hope that is the day STO folds. As sadly this been a money grab.
Atari tied Cryptic's hands yes. Now Perfect World is milking all they can get out of this.
Sad times for any Star Trek fans any where. I for one do not enjoy being nicked and dimed, all in the name of making more money.
personally I would remove the cloak from it and use it as a federation battleship
but there are many mirror universe captains and its fine for THEM to put a cloak on it (as long as they aren't technically in starfleet)
but all their hair will fall out
Unfortunately removing the ship's cloak would be equally detrimental to the ship as removing its Lance, or asking me to remove my arm or leg.
Without the cloak, the ship loses all capacity for surprise burst, and renders it completely crippled in the face of the other ships in the game. The Excelsior becomes a far more versatile attack cruiser with double the turn rate and equal defenses. The Galaxy-X would not be useful, as the Lance would be pointless without the ability to catch enemies off guard with it.
Losing the GX's cloak is not an option.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "Yes, I fly a Galaxy-X... and yes, I just 1-shotted you with it." -- Alcione@Hakaishin
I am waiting for CBS to yank the license away. If and when we see Fed BoP, and battle cloaks. I hope that is the day STO folds. As sadly this been a money grab.
Atari tied Cryptic's hands yes. Now Perfect World is milking all they can get out of this.
Sad times for any Star Trek fans any where. I for one do not enjoy being nicked and dimed, all in the name of making more money.
Well said. PW has transformed the ST IP into a fast cash grab IP.
The whole Star Trek Franchise is IMo heavily damaged by STO's fault.
I've drvien the B.O.P.'s, while they are entertaining, I wouldnt be interested in having a Federation version of it. As far as the cloaks go, I wasn't impressed when the majority of the KDF got it, the Klingons don't seem to be the sort to depend on cloaks for their big warships, more for the snipes and raiders like the B.O.P. and Raptor. Don't expect me to purchase a Federation B.O.P..
As far as the Fed' carriers, I'm not sold on the concept (as is), the pets are still pretty squirrely. I love the Armitage, but its selling point to me is the upped engineering boff spot, the fighters are marginal, I wouldve been happier with a lower purchase price or something.
I am waiting for CBS to yank the license away. If and when we see Fed BoP, and battle cloaks. I hope that is the day STO folds. As sadly this been a money grab.
1) If these rumors are true, my assumption is that the "Fed BoP' will be an allied race ship and not a pure federation design. (2409 version of Andorian Escort, or perhaps Caitian Ship?)
Well they never fixed it due to the treaty of Algeron. But any good diplomat will tell you a treaty is only valid as long as the entities party to the treaty are able to enforce it.
With the Romulans unable to enforce the treaty the Fed could of taken the Pegasus out of mothballs
so "they" claim there is not enough people that play kdf to warrant developing new and exciting things for us, have "they" ever thought to think that the reason alot of people dont switch over to the kdf is because everything that is unique to the kdf will just be released to the feds eventually so why bother? I say take everything that WAS unique to the kdf away from the feddies, if they want it then play the faction that it was designed for originally.
Cryptic intention was always to have the KDF "fail". It was as certain as not filling your car with gas. Eventually it will just run dry.
My objective is PvP. I've several different TV series to watch if I want Star Trek storyline.
That said, Feds now have carriers. That's acceptable. They should have had them from the beginning (check Pereguine Fighers from the Dominion War, decades before the game).
They were never meant to be exclusively Klingon.
Cloak... Defiant and Gal-X should be capable of cloak. Should they have advanced cloaks/battle cloaks? Sure, why not. Technology advances in decades of improvement. Surely they'd have something more to show for it than what they had 40+ years before.
Should every other ship in the Fed arsenal be able to do so? Probably not.
Thats the typical Fed response. Very one sided argument. While the Feds are all out inventing technology, you don't think that the KDF have been doing the same?
You say your only interest is PvP. I can see why that holds promise for you. Its not like the Feds have been given any advantage in that field....
I've drvien the B.O.P.'s, while they are entertaining, I wouldnt be interested in having a Federation version of it. As far as the cloaks go, I wasn't impressed when the majority of the KDF got it, the Klingons don't seem to be the sort to depend on cloaks for their big warships, more for the snipes and raiders like the B.O.P. and Raptor. Don't expect me to purchase a Federation B.O.P.
I've now used the Defiant retrofit (with far inferior quality of phasers compared to my Hegh'ta, which has all Borg AP for STFs). I also think people don't fully understand BoPs.
the Defiant is better than the Qin. the Defiant can kill much better than my Hegh'ta, and stay in the fight longer. the alpha strike is just plain better than a BoP.
what my Hegh'ta brings to STFs is not the battle cloak. the Hegh'ta brings enhanced cc with sci.
I can see why people would want the Defiant as-is to have battle cloak, but that is totally unreasonable. PvP-wise, it would be completely broken.
Thats the typical Fed response. Very one sided argument. While the Feds are all out inventing technology, you don't think that the KDF have been doing the same?
You say your only interest is PvP. I can see why that holds promise for you. Its not like the Feds have been given any advantage in that field....
"I don't care" is a typical Fed response? Wow... I must be reading a whole hell of a lot of "secluded arguments" then...
You are correct that Feds are ignored more or less in the PvP versatility however (though the argument can be made recently that has started to shift).
I don't care what is canon. I don't care what Feds whine about. I don't care what Klinks whine about.
In the end, it's all just whining.
Neither argument makes my PvP more enjoyable. Therefore they are all meaningless to me and deserve nothing but contempt and/or lulz, whichever I'm in the mood for.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "Yes, I fly a Galaxy-X... and yes, I just 1-shotted you with it." -- Alcione@Hakaishin
"I don't care" is a typical Fed response? Wow... I must be reading a whole hell of a lot of "secluded arguments" then...
You are correct that Feds are ignored more or less in the PvP versatility however (though the argument can be made recently that has started to shift).
I don't care what is canon. I don't care what Feds whine about. I don't care what Klinks whine about.
In the end, it's all just whining.
Neither argument makes my PvP more enjoyable. Therefore they are all meaningless to me and deserve nothing but contempt and/or lulz, whichever I'm in the mood for.
No everything that came after "I don't care". And please don't put words in my mouth. The Feds are NOT ignored in PVP versatility. PLEASE. Do I even need to start .... Assault Cruisers, Science Ships, MVAM, Carrier-escorts, Carriers + Danubes, Fleet escorts, Defiants-R, Universal consoles, introduction of limited universal BO!!!! Any gr8 PvPer will not argue the fact that in terms of PvP, Fed ships win hand down. If they deny it, they are sticking thier head in the sand, and avoiding the potential balancing that should result.
And please don't name any Klingon ships as counters. There are none. The Negh'var is obsolete (The Bortesqu is the only cruiser option at end game, period), the Guramba + Raptor are useless in turn rate, carriers have nearly been neutered by 2x point defence systems and AMS + danubes, and the B'Rel and BOP (suffers worst "conpensation-crisis" due to BC) are next in line. PS. B'Rel, Veranus - still broken.
This reminds me of a time in Physics where our lecturer argued that his green tie was red. No matter what arguments we made, in his mind the tie was red.
the Defiant is better than the Qin. the Defiant can kill much better than my Hegh'ta, and stay in the fight longer. the alpha strike is just plain better than a BoP.
If the Defiant can kill better than your Hegh'ta then your Hegth'ta must have something about its build that is doing this.
The Defiant gains a tac ensign, a turret and 1 console slot. It really should not be that far out ahead vs. your Hegh'ta.
I've played with the Hegh'ta as well, and in general I prefer the Guramba for STFs.
what my Hegh'ta brings to STFs is not the battle cloak. the Hegh'ta brings enhanced cc with sci.
Then that is the build specific choice you chose, and not the Hegh'ta's fault.
You've chosen 'CC' as the way you want to organize your Universal BOFF slots. I'm assuming you either have Lt Comm or Comm Sci slotted.
That was your idea, to make your ship more like a Sci ship.
In that case, you should be comparing your killing power to:
The MVAE
Fed Sci ships
And not the Defiant, which you are doing now.
You might also consider comparing the Hegh'ta to ships of a similar level (RA) range: Advanced Escort and Fleet Escort - both of which are the ones you should also compare to the Qin Raptor btw, as the Defiant, Armitage and MVAE are all VA level ships.
you can't use every boff ability in an alpha strike. Lt comm sci isn't affecting my ability to gun down enemies on a 1-for-1 manner because I can bunch them and kill them in ways that my Defiant can't.
you have lower weapon power and lose a tac console in the Hegh'ta. I didn't even have optimal phasers in the Defiant compared to the AP in my Hegh'ta.
you don't have the shields or hull in a Hegh'ta in spite of a build for more sci.
you can willfully ignore facts by taking ideas out of any context, but you need to look at it reasonably rather than emotionally in your opinions about what people deserve.
No everything that came after "I don't care". And please don't put words in my mouth. The Feds are NOT ignored in PVP versatility. PLEASE. Do I even need to start .... Assault Cruisers, Science Ships, MVAM, Carrier-escorts, Carriers + Danubes, Fleet escorts, Defiants-R, Universal consoles, introduction of limited universal BO!!!! Any gr8 PvPer will not argue the fact that in terms of PvP, Fed ships win hand down. If they deny it, they are sticking thier head in the sand, and avoiding the potential balancing that should result.
And please don't name any Klingon ships as counters. There are none. The Negh'var is obsolete (The Bortesqu is the only cruiser option at end game, period), the Guramba + Raptor are useless in turn rate, carriers have nearly been neutered by 2x point defence systems and AMS + danubes, and the B'Rel and BOP (suffers worst "conpensation-crisis" due to BC) are next in line. PS. B'Rel, Veranus - still broken.
This reminds me of a time in Physics where our lecturer argued that his green tie was red. No matter what arguments we made, in his mind the tie was red.
To quote myself... since you can't read... "though some can argue that this has recently started to change"... 6 months ago, hardly anything you mentioned were available to the Feds (Defiant-R... 1 cloakable escort... really? You're silly enough to compare that alongside the Klingons? Really? Seriously? lol...)
I can make the same arguments you made in the second argument about every single Fed ship. The Sovereign is obsolete (the Odyssey is the only cruiser option at end game, period) - the Galaxy X + Excelsior are useless in turn rate, Fed carriers have nearly been neutered by 2x point defence (but there's actually 3...) systems and AMS, and the Defiant and Advanced Escort are next in line. PS. Science ships - still nerfed.
This reminds me of a time in the military where a stupid butter bar took an M4 from the jammed weapons and when I told him it wouldn't be wise to use it, he loaded it and tried to fire it, ended up in the hospital.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "Yes, I fly a Galaxy-X... and yes, I just 1-shotted you with it." -- Alcione@Hakaishin
If the Federation gets a BoP (I'm not totally against it) just PLEASE do not give it a battle cloak. (If you give the Feds a battle cloak make it on something as Un-BoP like as possible)
Make it a ship with four universal bridge slots like the BoP (Cmdr, Lt Cmdr, 2xLt) but don't make it as maneuverable or well armed as an Escort or BoP. Give it the maneuverability and weapon slots of say a science vessel but let it mount dual cannons, give it the hull armor of a escort and the shields of a cruiser (a X1.0 modifier on both). Basically make it a ship that does everything but excels at nothing, a kind of utility vessel. Give us something we have not seen!
My Romulan Liberated Borg character made it to Level 30 and beat the (old) Defense of New Romulus with the skill point bug.
while i agree this doesnt sound like it would be true to the ip, it seems to me that klingon players (not all of them but some) play the klink side because the cloaking gives an unfair advantage and are scared that the advantage will be taken away and god forbid they face feds in a evenly matched pvp fight
To quote myself... since you can't read... "though some can argue that this has recently started to change"... 6 months ago, hardly anything you mentioned were available to the Feds (Defiant-R... 1 cloakable escort... really? You're silly enough to compare that alongside the Klingons? Really? Seriously? lol...)
I can make the same arguments you made in the second argument about every single Fed ship. The Sovereign is obsolete (the Odyssey is the only cruiser option at end game, period) - the Galaxy X + Excelsior are useless in turn rate, Fed carriers have nearly been neutered by 2x point defence (but there's actually 3...) systems and AMS, and the Defiant and Advanced Escort are next in line. PS. Science ships - still nerfed.
This reminds me of a time in the military where a stupid butter bar took an M4 from the jammed weapons and when I told him it wouldn't be wise to use it, he loaded it and tried to fire it, ended up in the hospital.
"since you can't read" - you lost all credibility right about there. Its also, quoting out of context.
"Though some may argue" - yes, the problem with that is, you posted the thread, so you are responsible for everything that came after that.
Defiant-R - it is better in all respects to its CLASS SHIP COMPARISON = RAPTOR ..... Ask anyone! I can point you to 100's of archived build threads. But I don't need to, because I have personally spoken to the best pvpers in the game to help with builds. Everything I have said, is based on that assessment. So, guess what. I'm going to just have to side with thoses, that know what they are talking about. Is the Defiant-R the best ship no, that would be another Fed escort. (And the Jem'Hadar is currently IMO the best, but that is not part of this discussion.)
What point defence are you refering to that the KDF have??? I am not talking FvF?
"there's actually 3" I'm referring to the Phaser Turret Point & Torp Defense System. What's the 3rd mystery console?
The sum total of your intention is to illicit an emotive response = troll/ flaming/ pick a word, and lends me to conclude you have an underdeveloped EQ.
while i agree this doesnt sound like it would be true to the ip, it seems to me that klingon players (not all of them but some) play the klink side because the cloaking gives an unfair advantage and are scared that the advantage will be taken away and god forbid they face feds in a evenly matched pvp fight
The KDF have 1, yes 1 advantage. The BC.
You call a pvp match with Carriers & Carrier-escs spawning danubes + phaser procs + AMS vs. BC BoP evenly matched?
If you are fond of playing PvP, you would only have to look around you to see, that the Feds have recently been given a major "shove forward", so to speak. Even the hardcore Fed PvPers agree that the Carrier-Esc + abilities + launchables is a bit over the top.
you can willfully ignore facts by taking ideas out of any context, but you need to look at it reasonably rather than emotionally in your opinions about what people deserve.
You're the one willfully ignoring facts and comparing an RA, "free" Raider class ship vs. a VA, C-Store Escort.
Again, ships you should be comparing the Qin & Hegh'ta against = Fleet Escort and Advanced Escort.
Even then, none of those are Raider class - because the Federation does not even have access to that type of ship.
Sure, if you have evidence that was the case in 2394.
In 2409 gametime the only ships that fall under such a "grandfather" clause appear to be the Defiant_r and AGT galaxy-X.
Any new ship with cloaking released today and moving forward would be in violation of the executive order of 2394.
Is this what we've come to? A klingon using rules and regulations to protect a special feature? Just say its a special Klink toy and should remain as such, people (myself included) will back that more than any attempt at using lore to justify something that is actually about game and faction balance.
There's enough history that things can be pushed either way. Some will say lore says THIS happens, and others will say common sense can't have THAT happen so it must be THIS over here.... but Gene said this and Gene is dead now ....and the franchise grew to be more than lawful stupid but no, only the klingons get to grow up as group, feds must remain 2 dimensional forever....
Seriously guys, its circular and can go on forever and NONE of that actually matters. Battlecloak is a KDF toy and should remain as such if only to give the barest appearance of the factions not being mirror copies of one another.
Its unfortunate the main Fed advantages seen in the various series "Clever Plan" and "High Horse Speech Attack" do not exist as game mechanics to give the Feds their own unique mechanic, relying instead on the somwhat bland if generally more useful tougher shields and hulls.
while i agree this doesnt sound like it would be true to the ip, it seems to me that klingon players (not all of them but some) play the klink side because the cloaking gives an unfair advantage and are scared that the advantage will be taken away and god forbid they face feds in a evenly matched pvp fight
LOL I seldom use cloak unless I am out matched and using it to boost my alpha in a duel.
For me it is not that cloak is that much of a tactical advantage. Many of my KDF toons use ships that cannot cloak to start with. Cloak, (within the game), was a trait unique to KDF ships. A trait that if the Orion, Gorn and Nausicaan ships are any indication, betting bred out of the KDF, (not that I'm complaining).
To see the "hero" class go against it's base concept of good guys wear white hats that is what I stand against. That and preserving the last attribute that free Klingon ships enjoy.
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
Is this what we've come to? A klingon using rules and regulations to protect a special feature? Just say its a special Klink toy and should remain as such, people (myself included) will back that more than any attempt at using lore to justify something that is actually about game and faction balance.
There's enough history that things can be pushed either way. Some will say lore says THIS happens, and others will say common sense can't have THAT happen so it must be THIS over here.... but Gene said this and Gene is dead now ....and the franchise grew to be more than lawful stupid but no, only the klingons get to grow up as group, feds must remain 2 dimensional forever....
Seriously guys, its circular and can go on forever and NONE of that actually matters. Battlecloak is a KDF toy and should remain as such if only to give the barest appearance of the factions not being mirror copies of one another.
Its unfortunate the main Fed advantages seen in the various series "Clever Plan" and "High Horse Speech Attack" do not exist as game mechanics to give the Feds their own unique mechanic, relying instead on the somwhat bland if generally more useful tougher shields and hulls.
Cloak detection and point defense consoles that can knock a cloaked ship out of cloak do not count as unique mechanics?
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
Cloak detection and point defense consoles that can knock a cloaked ship out of cloak do not count as unique mechanics?
Not really, too situational. Clever Plan and High Horse Speech would be more general purpose, (cloaks can at least give you a good alpha some of the time), and would naturally always carry the day because Fed phasers could only fire once every 5 days!
Comments
Sure, if you have evidence that was the case in 2394.
In 2409 gametime the only ships that fall under such a "grandfather" clause appear to be the Defiant_r and AGT galaxy-X.
Any new ship with cloaking released today and moving forward would be in violation of the executive order of 2394.
The only reason that we have multiples of the Defiant-R and AGT galaxy is that multple players bought the vessels out of the Cstore. You are putting real life player multiplicity as reason for breaking the executive order in this case.
Cryptic can't say ,"we only made one Defiant and one AGT, who wants it?" becuase it would TRIBBLE off the fans who didn't buy it for the highest bid.
They made them purchaseble and therefore they exist in large numbers due to being purchased only. Not becuase starfleet made them in large numbers, only becuase Cryptic sold them.
R.I.P
Yes, KDF was a unique faction which mainly had cloaks, (Except for defiant and galaxy)
BUT, KDF is being neglected so much, we got underpowered raptors and BoP's which either have a crappy Bridge officer layout (Raptor any1?)
or they are nerfed in tactical consoles and aft weapon slots and got their hull nerfed to 1 HP.
sorry to say this, id love to see some GOOD BoP's on the KDF side which are fully tactical worthy, but so far this hasnt been done yet.
Why? because KDF are so called OP because of their battlecloak.
Well, thats the reason why i dont play KDF, and i would be happy with a new escort on fed side with a fancy cloak.
my B'rel has the hull of ten Starfleet cruisers, and the striking power of a hundred Starfleet escort ships because it flies the heart of virtue.
what do I sacrifice to command a Klingon bird of prey? we give up fear, pity, remorse. we give up expectations for better tomorrows, and any rational sense of self-preservation.
why are there so many commander-level Norgh birds of prey, but a much lower number of Hegh'ta birds of prey amongst those at endgame? if it were so great, why do so many people choose the Vo'quv, Varanus, Karfi for science captains? or the siege destroyer or raptor for tactical?
the bird of prey, as great as it is, requires sacrifices that many cannot understand until you've run it through many scenarios. and I agree... if you can't make the sacrifice to join the KDF for the B'rel or Hegh'ta, how can you expect it to end well with a Starfleet bird of prey?
besides, it would be another toy for Starfleet, in a time where Klingons have barely any meat on the bones of the faction. yes, Starfleet justice, I know.
of course, Starfleet will get their new toy, and the game will keep on its merry path.
IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
Atari tied Cryptic's hands yes. Now Perfect World is milking all they can get out of this.
Sad times for any Star Trek fans any where. I for one do not enjoy being nicked and dimed, all in the name of making more money.
Unfortunately removing the ship's cloak would be equally detrimental to the ship as removing its Lance, or asking me to remove my arm or leg.
Without the cloak, the ship loses all capacity for surprise burst, and renders it completely crippled in the face of the other ships in the game. The Excelsior becomes a far more versatile attack cruiser with double the turn rate and equal defenses. The Galaxy-X would not be useful, as the Lance would be pointless without the ability to catch enemies off guard with it.
Losing the GX's cloak is not an option.
"Yes, I fly a Galaxy-X... and yes, I just 1-shotted you with it." -- Alcione@Hakaishin
Well said. PW has transformed the ST IP into a fast cash grab IP.
The whole Star Trek Franchise is IMo heavily damaged by STO's fault.
As far as the Fed' carriers, I'm not sold on the concept (as is), the pets are still pretty squirrely. I love the Armitage, but its selling point to me is the upped engineering boff spot, the fighters are marginal, I wouldve been happier with a lower purchase price or something.
1) If these rumors are true, my assumption is that the "Fed BoP' will be an allied race ship and not a pure federation design. (2409 version of Andorian Escort, or perhaps Caitian Ship?)
2) CBS is not allergic to money.
... but they didn't. The End
Cryptic intention was always to have the KDF "fail". It was as certain as not filling your car with gas. Eventually it will just run dry.
Thats the typical Fed response. Very one sided argument. While the Feds are all out inventing technology, you don't think that the KDF have been doing the same?
You say your only interest is PvP. I can see why that holds promise for you. Its not like the Feds have been given any advantage in that field....
I've now used the Defiant retrofit (with far inferior quality of phasers compared to my Hegh'ta, which has all Borg AP for STFs). I also think people don't fully understand BoPs.
the Defiant is better than the Qin. the Defiant can kill much better than my Hegh'ta, and stay in the fight longer. the alpha strike is just plain better than a BoP.
what my Hegh'ta brings to STFs is not the battle cloak. the Hegh'ta brings enhanced cc with sci.
I can see why people would want the Defiant as-is to have battle cloak, but that is totally unreasonable. PvP-wise, it would be completely broken.
IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
"I don't care" is a typical Fed response? Wow... I must be reading a whole hell of a lot of "secluded arguments" then...
You are correct that Feds are ignored more or less in the PvP versatility however (though the argument can be made recently that has started to shift).
I don't care what is canon. I don't care what Feds whine about. I don't care what Klinks whine about.
In the end, it's all just whining.
Neither argument makes my PvP more enjoyable. Therefore they are all meaningless to me and deserve nothing but contempt and/or lulz, whichever I'm in the mood for.
"Yes, I fly a Galaxy-X... and yes, I just 1-shotted you with it." -- Alcione@Hakaishin
No everything that came after "I don't care". And please don't put words in my mouth. The Feds are NOT ignored in PVP versatility. PLEASE. Do I even need to start .... Assault Cruisers, Science Ships, MVAM, Carrier-escorts, Carriers + Danubes, Fleet escorts, Defiants-R, Universal consoles, introduction of limited universal BO!!!! Any gr8 PvPer will not argue the fact that in terms of PvP, Fed ships win hand down. If they deny it, they are sticking thier head in the sand, and avoiding the potential balancing that should result.
And please don't name any Klingon ships as counters. There are none. The Negh'var is obsolete (The Bortesqu is the only cruiser option at end game, period), the Guramba + Raptor are useless in turn rate, carriers have nearly been neutered by 2x point defence systems and AMS + danubes, and the B'Rel and BOP (suffers worst "conpensation-crisis" due to BC) are next in line. PS. B'Rel, Veranus - still broken.
This reminds me of a time in Physics where our lecturer argued that his green tie was red. No matter what arguments we made, in his mind the tie was red.
If the Defiant can kill better than your Hegh'ta then your Hegth'ta must have something about its build that is doing this.
The Defiant gains a tac ensign, a turret and 1 console slot. It really should not be that far out ahead vs. your Hegh'ta.
I've played with the Hegh'ta as well, and in general I prefer the Guramba for STFs.
Then that is the build specific choice you chose, and not the Hegh'ta's fault.
You've chosen 'CC' as the way you want to organize your Universal BOFF slots. I'm assuming you either have Lt Comm or Comm Sci slotted.
That was your idea, to make your ship more like a Sci ship.
In that case, you should be comparing your killing power to:
And not the Defiant, which you are doing now.
You might also consider comparing the Hegh'ta to ships of a similar level (RA) range: Advanced Escort and Fleet Escort - both of which are the ones you should also compare to the Qin Raptor btw, as the Defiant, Armitage and MVAE are all VA level ships.
you have lower weapon power and lose a tac console in the Hegh'ta. I didn't even have optimal phasers in the Defiant compared to the AP in my Hegh'ta.
you don't have the shields or hull in a Hegh'ta in spite of a build for more sci.
you can willfully ignore facts by taking ideas out of any context, but you need to look at it reasonably rather than emotionally in your opinions about what people deserve.
IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
To quote myself... since you can't read... "though some can argue that this has recently started to change"... 6 months ago, hardly anything you mentioned were available to the Feds (Defiant-R... 1 cloakable escort... really? You're silly enough to compare that alongside the Klingons? Really? Seriously? lol...)
I can make the same arguments you made in the second argument about every single Fed ship. The Sovereign is obsolete (the Odyssey is the only cruiser option at end game, period) - the Galaxy X + Excelsior are useless in turn rate, Fed carriers have nearly been neutered by 2x point defence (but there's actually 3...) systems and AMS, and the Defiant and Advanced Escort are next in line. PS. Science ships - still nerfed.
This reminds me of a time in the military where a stupid butter bar took an M4 from the jammed weapons and when I told him it wouldn't be wise to use it, he loaded it and tried to fire it, ended up in the hospital.
"Yes, I fly a Galaxy-X... and yes, I just 1-shotted you with it." -- Alcione@Hakaishin
Make it a ship with four universal bridge slots like the BoP (Cmdr, Lt Cmdr, 2xLt) but don't make it as maneuverable or well armed as an Escort or BoP. Give it the maneuverability and weapon slots of say a science vessel but let it mount dual cannons, give it the hull armor of a escort and the shields of a cruiser (a X1.0 modifier on both). Basically make it a ship that does everything but excels at nothing, a kind of utility vessel. Give us something we have not seen!
join date: Jan. 2012
"since you can't read" - you lost all credibility right about there. Its also, quoting out of context.
"Though some may argue" - yes, the problem with that is, you posted the thread, so you are responsible for everything that came after that.
Defiant-R - it is better in all respects to its CLASS SHIP COMPARISON = RAPTOR ..... Ask anyone! I can point you to 100's of archived build threads. But I don't need to, because I have personally spoken to the best pvpers in the game to help with builds. Everything I have said, is based on that assessment. So, guess what. I'm going to just have to side with thoses, that know what they are talking about. Is the Defiant-R the best ship no, that would be another Fed escort. (And the Jem'Hadar is currently IMO the best, but that is not part of this discussion.)
What point defence are you refering to that the KDF have??? I am not talking FvF?
"there's actually 3" I'm referring to the Phaser Turret Point & Torp Defense System. What's the 3rd mystery console?
The sum total of your intention is to illicit an emotive response = troll/ flaming/ pick a word, and lends me to conclude you have an underdeveloped EQ.
The KDF have 1, yes 1 advantage. The BC.
You call a pvp match with Carriers & Carrier-escs spawning danubes + phaser procs + AMS vs. BC BoP evenly matched?
If you are fond of playing PvP, you would only have to look around you to see, that the Feds have recently been given a major "shove forward", so to speak. Even the hardcore Fed PvPers agree that the Carrier-Esc + abilities + launchables is a bit over the top.
Alpha strikes are all but irrelevant on STFs. Why are you building for Alpha Strikes in PvE against targets that have millions of hull points?
Lt Comm Sci is affecting your overall DPS, and ability to consistently chain DPS focused tactical powers.
There's nothing wrong with GW, and doing what you state above - but you are comparing a Sci Focused Raider to a Pure Tactical Escort.
The closest ship to what you have is the MVAE - why are you not comparing it to that?
My guess is because its easier to complain about the Defiant.
That's because the Hegh'ta is a Raider and not an Escort.
That's becasue the Hegh'ta is RA level and not VA.
Please feel free to compare to the Guramba or the Qin (and hopefully a VA Qin if we ever get one, which would be great).
You're the one willfully ignoring facts and comparing an RA, "free" Raider class ship vs. a VA, C-Store Escort.
Again, ships you should be comparing the Qin & Hegh'ta against = Fleet Escort and Advanced Escort.
Even then, none of those are Raider class - because the Federation does not even have access to that type of ship.
Is this what we've come to? A klingon using rules and regulations to protect a special feature? Just say its a special Klink toy and should remain as such, people (myself included) will back that more than any attempt at using lore to justify something that is actually about game and faction balance.
There's enough history that things can be pushed either way. Some will say lore says THIS happens, and others will say common sense can't have THAT happen so it must be THIS over here.... but Gene said this and Gene is dead now ....and the franchise grew to be more than lawful stupid but no, only the klingons get to grow up as group, feds must remain 2 dimensional forever....
Seriously guys, its circular and can go on forever and NONE of that actually matters. Battlecloak is a KDF toy and should remain as such if only to give the barest appearance of the factions not being mirror copies of one another.
Its unfortunate the main Fed advantages seen in the various series "Clever Plan" and "High Horse Speech Attack" do not exist as game mechanics to give the Feds their own unique mechanic, relying instead on the somwhat bland if generally more useful tougher shields and hulls.
LOL I seldom use cloak unless I am out matched and using it to boost my alpha in a duel.
For me it is not that cloak is that much of a tactical advantage. Many of my KDF toons use ships that cannot cloak to start with. Cloak, (within the game), was a trait unique to KDF ships. A trait that if the Orion, Gorn and Nausicaan ships are any indication, betting bred out of the KDF, (not that I'm complaining).
To see the "hero" class go against it's base concept of good guys wear white hats that is what I stand against. That and preserving the last attribute that free Klingon ships enjoy.
Cloak detection and point defense consoles that can knock a cloaked ship out of cloak do not count as unique mechanics?
Not really, too situational. Clever Plan and High Horse Speech would be more general purpose, (cloaks can at least give you a good alpha some of the time), and would naturally always carry the day because Fed phasers could only fire once every 5 days!
Would that mean they also become ultimate bad*****, punch godlike beings around and get all the ladies?
Id be more impressed with sisko if he had KILLED Q
ROFLCopter