Do you really think having more missions would somehow fix that?
I think a complete KDF faction with level one to endgame playability and missions that tie-up the loose ends of the KDF, give life to the houses of the Empire and put real focus on what we are doing in STO can only improve the KDF and the games options for overall playability.
I believe that the continued pimping out of all things that may bring a dollar in profit and focusing that aproach just on one faction near exclusively is going to kill STO in the long run and hurt the games chances of every being more than a fan driven ego stroke with no real substance.
The problem is that we don't really know what's happening in the Romulan Star Empire. Shoot we don't even know exactly how big the empire is. Looking around the internets wikipedia has this to say about the size of the empire:
No, the issue is that the president of the UFP signed an executive order in the STO recent timeline that states clearly the Federation would no longer pursue research into cloaking technologies. period. point blank. no wiggle room.
Every fed with dreams of being the decloaking warrior in thier cruiser whom can't be bothered to play the KDF seems to overlook this one point in the history set-up for the game. They simply dismmiss it as it does not fit what they want for the IP and claim its thier right to "adjust" to the situation as it is. Or as the Avatar I used to have would say, They broke thier solemn word
Remind me, please: What was the last mission they added to the game? And for which side was it?
Alpha, a mission made in a Devs spare time.
Before Alpha it was the Mars Planetia mission for the feds, a mission made under the Devs team efforts.
But you are right, a single KDF specific mission over a 12 month time span of having nothing specific for the faction to further its gameplay is so helping grow the KDF. At this rate the KDF will be able to start from level one in the year 2032.
Now if they had cranked out 3-4 KDF specific missions in that 12 month period to start shoring up the gap they created, I and other KDF fans would be happy. It would still take years to complete the faction but at least the process would be moving forward rather than at a standstill and being ignored like a bum by the highway.
No one that has watched Star Trek can really argue with the fact that the Federation has almost no cloaking technology. It goes against the IP to give it to them. At the same time JJ Treks puts everything out of whack. We are now in uncharted territory. Even though it's only considered soft canon, the Devs are advancing the storyline for Star Trek. They are limited in just how far they are allowed to go with it.
It's not really a question of Feds vs Klingon technology when it comes to cloaking. Klingons aren't the only ones that have it. The Romulans have this tech also.
The question is should the Feds be able to acquire this tech and should the Devs be allowed to take the story in that direction. Personally I don't think so story-wise because of the reasons I mentioned earlier.
SO is it true that the Devs/Cryptic are seriously considering giving widespread cloaking and a Bop-like escort to the feds?
Are you seriuosly gonna pimp out the last uniqueness for the KDF for a quick buck?
Honestly, cloaking for the feds so they can do what Gene thought heroes should not do?
What possible need does the federation, a force for peace and exploration before war, need for a vessel designed to raid colonies, supply lines, plus overall a machine designed for conquest have for a BoP-like escort?
Does the IP mean anything anymore or has STO just become a "feddy wants it and we will sell it to them" cop-out?
Being a Fed player, i'm with you on this . . i would actually like to see a lot more stuff for the KDF guys. If they did bring out a cloak for the feds i for one wouldn't use it, or indeed want it . . it just wouldn't seem right to me.
No one that has watched Star Trek can really argue with the fact that the Federation has almost no cloaking technology. It goes against the IP to give it to them. At the same time JJ Treks puts everything out of whack. We are now in uncharted territory. Even though it's only considered soft canon, the Devs are advancing the storyline for Star Trek. They are limited in just how far they are allowed to go with it.
It's not really a question of Feds vs Klingon technology when it comes to cloaking. Klingons aren't the only ones that have it. The Romulans have this tech also.
The question is should the Feds be able to acquire this tech and should the Devs be allowed to take the story in that direction. Personally I don't think so story-wise because of the reasons I mentioned earlier.
It never made any sense to me that the Feds would voluntarily tie their hands over the cloaking issue with the Romulans. The Tomed Incident must've been fairly horrible. In terms of canon, we've already seen that the Feds clearly aren't bound by the Treaty of Algeron anymore (doubt every Gal-X and Def-R in the game has a Romulan approved cloak) in this game.
That being said... there's no point in having two (or even one and a half) factions if there's nothing really unique in the gameplay between them. I play both, and I like that there is a non-cosmetic difference. Not much of a difference these days, but a difference nonetheless.
It never made any sense to me that the Feds would voluntarily tie their hands over the cloaking issue with the Romulans. The Tomed Incident must've been fairly horrible. In terms of canon, we've already seen that the Feds clearly aren't bound by the Treaty of Algeron anymore (doubt every Gal-X and Def-R in the game has a Romulan approved cloak) in this game.
That being said... there's no point in having two (or even one and a half) factions if there's nothing really unique in the gameplay between them. I play both, and I like that there is a non-cosmetic difference. Not much of a difference these days, but a difference nonetheless.
Romulan Empire is collapsed and the Federation is in perpetual war for survival.
Much like the USA which promises with the Geneva Convention to provide honorable trials and a strict adherance to NO torture for all prisoners under our care (whether war prisoners or not)...
...Yet the USA runs concentration camps, where these men, women, and children go to be brutalized, tortured, and killed without the protection of ANY law, without ANY trial, and without ANY charge.
You assume a government is just and honorable, even in war. This is a lie, and always shall be, no matter how "enlightened" a race becomes. The very idea behind ANY form of structured heirarchy is that of force - an opinion with a gun. Using violence to stifle peaceful dissent.
I wouldn't hold the Federation at all above that regard. They are, in the end, a government at war and struggling to maintain its sovereignty. They will use tactics and tools that are unlawful to achieve that, no ifs, ands, or buts.
It's ALWAYS happened in the past, and shall ALWAYS continue to happen.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "Yes, I fly a Galaxy-X... and yes, I just 1-shotted you with it." -- Alcione@Hakaishin
Romulan Empire is collapsed and the Federation is in perpetual war for survival.
Much like the USA which promises with the Geneva Convention to provide honorable trials and a strict adherance to NO torture for all prisoners under our care (whether war prisoners or not)...
...Yet the USA runs concentration camps, where these men, women, and children go to be brutalized, tortured, and killed without the protection of ANY law, without ANY trial, and without ANY charge.
You assume a government is just and honorable, even in war. This is a lie, and always shall be, no matter how "enlightened" a race becomes. The very idea behind ANY form of structured heirarchy is that of force - an opinion with a gun. Using violence to stifle peaceful dissent.
I wouldn't hold the Federation at all above that regard. They are, in the end, a government at war and struggling to maintain its sovereignty. They will use tactics and tools that are unlawful to achieve that, no ifs, ands, or buts.
It's ALWAYS happened in the past, and shall ALWAYS continue to happen.
To repond to this would be to derail the thread.
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
Romulan Empire is collapsed and the Federation is in perpetual war for survival.
Much like the USA which promises with the Geneva Convention to provide honorable trials and a strict adherance to NO torture for all prisoners under our care (whether war prisoners or not)...
...Yet the USA runs concentration camps, where these men, women, and children go to be brutalized, tortured, and killed without the protection of ANY law, without ANY trial, and without ANY charge.
You assume a government is just and honorable, even in war. This is a lie, and always shall be, no matter how "enlightened" a race becomes. The very idea behind ANY form of structured heirarchy is that of force - an opinion with a gun. Using violence to stifle peaceful dissent.
I wouldn't hold the Federation at all above that regard. They are, in the end, a government at war and struggling to maintain its sovereignty. They will use tactics and tools that are unlawful to achieve that, no ifs, ands, or buts.
It's ALWAYS happened in the past, and shall ALWAYS continue to happen.
While that is the reality of the human condition and governments as we know them it goes against the idealism that Gene wrote and infused into his creation, Star Trek.
He wrote a story of man having fallen to the very edge of the abyss of war, surving barely to recreate a better society where man no longer chose to follow the same path back to the abyss.
While what you describe is the human condition, his fictional humans strove to rise above.
This why everytime some character did decide to leap into the abyss and function by fighting fire with fire or by any means neccassary to win they where written and shown as being less than than the hero.
The fed team that designed the phase cloak where villians becuase they went to the abyss to do it.
The feds that conspired with klingons to assassinate the UFP president where villians because they too went the abyss.
The list goes on and on everytime the evils of war and the abyss that man could fall into was used as storyline.
That is why I say the feds are the hero and a by any means neccassary aproach to war is beneath them. Because they where written to rise above such old thinking in the world of Star Trek.
Well they never fixed it due to the treaty of Algeron. But any good diplomat will tell you a treaty is only valid as long as the entities party to the treaty are able to enforce it.
With the Romulans unable to enforce the treaty the Fed could of taken the Pegasus out of mothballs
And that's show the Federation as a "The moment you become weaker then us, we'll just toss your treaties aside and do whatever we want." For one, all forces it has treaties with would be highly likely to back out/reconsider their stances. It certainly wouldn't win them ANY new friends.
Which is even more un-federation like then mass fielding fighters all the time.
Not to mention, the Pegasus isn't in mothballs. It's still half-inside a rock. And the phase cloak device + relevant data was given to the Romulans for destruction. (Or destroyed with Romulans watching)
I doubt it's true. And as a primarily Fed player, I hope it isn't.
While the treaty with the Romulans is basically null (since the Empire is shattered) and the UFP is in open war with the Klingons, I can see why Starfleet would invest in cloaking tech. HOWEVER, cloaking feels wrong for starfleet. Maybe I'm just a traditionalist, but I'd like the cloak to be a KDF trick that isn't used on Fed side.
(The 2 examples of it are "canon", but not used that often anyway. I suppose they could for "canon" reasons give the Oberth a cloak, but honestly why? lol)
It's not null. The Romulan empire might be shattered as a Government, but there isn't much to point at their military being in ruins.
I say if the Federation broke that treaty (Note I believe, nearly all treaties in the past were broken by the other side, not Federation), I'm sure the Romulans could gather a fleet big enough for a strike toward Earth. And with the Federation already stretched thin...
While that is the reality of the human condition and governments as we know them it goes against the idealism that Gene wrote and infused into his creation, Star Trek.
He wrote a story of man having fallen to the very edge of the abyss of war, surving barely to recreate a better society where man no longer chose to follow the same path back to the abyss.
While what you describe is the human condition, his fictional humans strove to rise above.
This why everytime some character did decide to leap into the abyss and function by fighting fire with fire or by any means neccassary to win they where written and shown as being less than than the hero.
The fed team that designed the phase cloak where villians becuase they went to the abyss to do it.
The feds that conspired with klingons to assassinate the UFP president where villians because they too went the abyss.
The list goes on and on everytime the evils of war and the abyss that man could fall into was used as storyline.
That is why I say the feds are the hero and a by any means neccassary aproach to war is beneath them. Because they where written to rise above such old thinking in the world of Star Trek.
You did better than I could have. Thank you.
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
Romulan Empire is collapsed and the Federation is in perpetual war for survival.
Much like the USA which promises with the Geneva Convention to provide honorable trials and a strict adherance to NO torture for all prisoners under our care (whether war prisoners or not)...
...Yet the USA runs concentration camps, where these men, women, and children go to be brutalized, tortured, and killed without the protection of ANY law, without ANY trial, and without ANY charge.
You assume a government is just and honorable, even in war. This is a lie, and always shall be, no matter how "enlightened" a race becomes. The very idea behind ANY form of structured heirarchy is that of force - an opinion with a gun. Using violence to stifle peaceful dissent.
I wouldn't hold the Federation at all above that regard. They are, in the end, a government at war and struggling to maintain its sovereignty. They will use tactics and tools that are unlawful to achieve that, no ifs, ands, or buts.
It's ALWAYS happened in the past, and shall ALWAYS continue to happen.
The Romulan Star Empire is not collapsed. They have stability issues, but that will get ironed out soon enough. The real issue is that the Romulan military did not go kaput with the loss of Romulus. Do you really think the majority of their military was sitting at Romulus?
Also, you're trying to impose what you believe in real world events with Star Trek.
Let me put it bluntly: Gene Roddenberry has made the Federation, in whatever production he has put his name on, as the bonafide "Good Guys." The Federation is honorable, sticks to its words and diplomatic agreements, even to a fault (recall the TNG episode with the captain of the USS Phoenix, a Nebula Cruiser, going apesh*t against the devious Cardassians, and the Enterprise called in to stop her, but the Phoenix's captain WAS right, but was going about it completely wrong).
Roddenberry's Federation, from TOS to TNG, up until his death, did not sneak around in cloaked ships. The Klingons did. The Romulans did. But not Roddenberry's "Good Guys" of Star Trek. They never did from the days of Kirk and even with his last pet project, TNG with Picard.
Even with Roddenberry's passing, this two things still persisted about the Federation being the "Good Guys."
1. The Federation's word and agreements are always binding to them. The Federation holds that dear, for it is through their WORD and diplomacy that the Federation became strong.
2. Starfleet did not, never has, in any official Star Trek movie or TV show, sneak around in Cloaked ships. This was NEVER Starfleet's style.
A Cloaked Starfleet goes against the very fiber of the theme and feel of the Federation in Star Trek.
Period.
You can try to twist things however you want, but holy jeez, if you have watched any number of Star Trek movies and TV shows, the very basic idea of a cloaked Starfleet is JUST WRONG.
wait, is this some sort of old thread complaining about the defiant? or complaints about starfleet ships that might end up functioning exactly like bops? if its the former, its old news and people need to move on past that. if its the latter, i can somewhat agree that this takes away from the unique ships the kdf has, but with the addition of crossfaction consoles and carriers on the federation side, this might just be another grim fact that people may have to endure.
there are two precedents of the good guy feds "sneaking about" in cloaked federation ships. the Defiant of DS9 is one and the alternate future Enterprise in "All Good Things" is another. with that in mind, they still had very good reasons to do so:
- in the case of the Defiant, any and all hopes of negotiation with the Dominion were non-existant, the station was poised in the cusp of war, and starfleet needed a means to fight back as well as operate in an environment where their odds for survival were very grim.
- in the case of the Enterprise, Riker's hands were officially tied as far as assisting Picard, but unofficially he wanted to do so more than anything. he managed to do so by getting the drop on the Klingons assaulting the Pasteur. once more, in this scenario starfleet is on the cusp of war (elements both in the JJverse movie and STO are prevalent in the finale as well, such as the destruction of Romulus and Klingons expanding into Romulan territory)
if anything can be gleaned from this, at the very worst, it seems that in times of war or if the Romulan Star Empire is destroyed, then it is "fair game" for the Federation to make use of cloaking technology.
I now refer you to TNG
where a RANKING officer was put under arrest for using a cloak in violation of treaty
now please stop messing up the sensible threads with your nasty , childish name calling and demands for more power for your escorts
i didnt know Admiral Riker was put under arrest for using cloak to save Picard. must have been after those episodes.
OH WAIT THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN EITHER.
please note that the specific examples i used were the Defiant and the Enterprise from "All Good Things". i even put up a summation on what particular clause would seem to invalidate the necessity to uphold the treaty of algeron (apparent war-time or dissolution of Romulus)
if anything can be gleaned from this, at the very worst, it seems that in times of war or if the Romulan Star Empire is destroyed, then it is "fair game" for the Federation to make use of cloaking technology.
Not according to the executive order signed on stardate 2395 by then UFP president Aennik Okeg that bans all research into or the creation of a federation cloaking technology.
The two cloaking vessels that the feds enjoy now are special cases given to the feds faction at the behest of the feans who wanted to be able to fly two of the iconic vessels they remember from the series.
They are not a reprensetation of the UFP creating fleets of cloaked vessels but exist enmasse only becuase any player can buy them as they see fit for purposes of playing the game.
to quote the path to 2409;
" The narrow legal view may be that the Treaty of Algeron ended when Romulus was destroyed,"
Okeg says, " The Romulan EMpire we knew is gone, and you are a new people. What has not changed is the Federations commitment to peace."
there are two precedents of the good guy feds "sneaking about" in cloaked federation ships. the Defiant of DS9 is one and the alternate future Enterprise in "All Good Things" is another. with that in mind, they still had very good reasons to do so:
- in the case of the Defiant, any and all hopes of negotiation with the Dominion were non-existant, the station was poised in the cusp of war, and starfleet needed a means to fight back as well as operate in an environment where their odds for survival were very grim.
you are missing that, in the case of the Defiant, the cloaking device was installed by the Romulans, and operated by a Romulan, when they went in search of the founders to try to make peace with the Dominion. that cloaking device remained installed on the Defiant, with the permission of the RSE. now of course that does not explain why, when the Defiant was destroyed and replaced by the Sao Paulo, that they decided to have a cloaking device on that ship, since the Defiant was the only ship of its class to actually have a cloaking device installed.
But yes the Enterprise E did have a cloaking device installed in an alternate time line, she also had 3 warp nacells and BFG. but since the Enterprise E was destroyed, obviously that future variant will no come to be.
Now one could argue that the Federation should not have cloaking devices because of the treaty, but, you could speculate that the one branch of the Federation government that follows its own rules, may be using cloaking devices on their own ships, without the knowledge of Starfleet command. I mean after all, if i was in a spy agency that answered to no one, why wouldn't I use a cloaking device on a small ship, making it easier to spy on people or move agents around to different planets unnoticed.
Not according to the executive order signed on stardate 2395 by then UFP president Aennik Okeg that bans all research into or the creation of a federation cloaking technology.
The two cloaking vessels that the feds enjoy now are special cases given to the feds faction at the behest of the feans who wanted to be able to fly two of the iconic vessels they remember from the series.
They are not a reprensetation of the UFP creating fleets of cloaked vessels but exist enmasse only becuase any player can buy them as they see fit for purposes of playing the game.
to quote the path to 2409;
" The narrow legal view may be that the Treaty of Algeron ended when Romulus was destroyed,"
Okeg says, " The Romulan EMpire we knew is gone, and you are a new people. What has not changed is the Federations commitment to peace."
yes, thats why i said "at the very worst".
although, if that executive order is verbatim, there is nothing stopping starfleet or any of its covert branches from installing a cloaking device that was already complete prior to the issuing of the order, does it? i mean, if the device is already complete and only needs installation that is not really "creating" cloaking technology, merely activating it.
although, if that executive order is verbatim, there is nothing stopping starfleet or any of its covert branches from installing a cloaking device that was already complete prior to the issuing of the order, does it? i mean, if the device is already complete and only needs installation that is not really "creating" cloaking technology, merely activating it.
Real "letter of the law" type here.
Why grab at straws?
The Path to 2409 clearly states no Fed cloaks.
If the Devs decide to violate this that is on them. Sure worked with the Caitian Carrier and the Armitage, despite them saying on multiple occasions there would be no such monsters. Then again if they go against the path of 2409 I just may leave the game. I can only take so much double talk after all. Then again it would not matter to them if I do leave the game. They got a good chunk of my money and F2P relies on roll over.
Still there is no reason to rationalize Fed battlecloak on all Fed ships.
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
If the Devs decide to violate this that is on them. Sure worked with the Caitian Carrier and the Armitage, despite them saying on multiple occasions there would be no such monsters. Then again if they go against the path of 2409 I just may leave the game. I can only take so much double talk after all. Then again it would not matter to them if I do leave the game. They got a good chunk of my money and F2P relies on roll over.
Still there is no reason to rationalize Fed battlecloak on all Fed ships.
oh no, don't get me wrong. personally i would rather the uniqueness of certain abilities in factions (like battlecloak). it's just that, let's face it, we already have precedents that violate the executive order as it is in the form of mass numbers of defiant retrofits, and starfleet somehow managing to get their hands on blueprints for a galaxy class ship that exists in an alternate timeline. as it stands, people might as well learn to try and live with the possibility. after all, a wise saying goes "hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst".
Any ship operating a cloak in the ALPHA or BETA quadrants in starfleet service is in violation of treaty
and its CO is due for a visit from JAG
but you sir are a greedy power monger and want everything your way to the detriment of the game the Ip and the freedoms of the civilised peoples of the cosmos
Any ship operating a cloak in the ALPHA or BETA quadrants in starfleet service is in violation of treaty
and its CO is due for a visit from JAG
but you sir are a greedy power monger and want everything your way to the detriment of the game the Ip and the freedoms of the civilised peoples of the cosmos
the stipulations for the use of cloaking only in the gamma quadrant was drawn up for the Defiant and only the Defiant. this is primarily due to the fact that the AGT Enterprise is, well, an alternate timeline, but the wordings for it was very clear. honoring the word would apply only to those captaining a defiant retrofit, not those that head a gal-x
oh no, don't get me wrong. personally i would rather the uniqueness of certain abilities in factions (like battlecloak). it's just that, let's face it, we already have precedents that violate the executive order as it is in the form of mass numbers of defiant retrofits, and starfleet somehow managing to get their hands on blueprints for a galaxy class ship that exists in an alternate timeline. as it stands, people might as well learn to try and live with the possibility. after all, a wise saying goes "hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst".
I just accept it as those ships were presented on screen as having cloaks, for that reason is how they are in game and am forced to move on. Hell I have both the Defiant-R and the Gal-X and I NEVER use the cloak myself. The console slot is too valuable. Others perceive cloak to big a huge advantage. Maybe in the opening but I seldom can run away fast enough or long enough to be able to recloak once the fighting starts in PvP.
Which is why, I guess, so many Fed only players want battlecloak. But as our host, Roach, has pointed out so many Fed only players are so put off by how the KDF is portrayed in the game that they would die before they roll a KDF to see what the true trade off is for battlecloak.
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
Comments
Consideration to the fact that all FEs are written from a Fed POV and then lightly rewritten for KDF I would say no.
My how clever you are. I most certainly will not be able to offer a counterpoint to such awesome logic. Alas I will attempt to avail myself.
My point was that once upon a time novel game mechanics were a draw to the KDF faction.
Episodes of Star Trek only reinforce this notion. Watch Balance of Terror and tell me that cloaking did not add to the Romulan mystique.
Mayhaps it is you who should watch more Star Trek?
Edited to add: Loaded questions that attempt to lead are fun.
R.I.P
R.I.P
Alpha, a mission made in a Devs spare time.
Before Alpha it was the Mars Planetia mission for the feds, a mission made under the Devs team efforts.
But you are right, a single KDF specific mission over a 12 month time span of having nothing specific for the faction to further its gameplay is so helping grow the KDF. At this rate the KDF will be able to start from level one in the year 2032.
Now if they had cranked out 3-4 KDF specific missions in that 12 month period to start shoring up the gap they created, I and other KDF fans would be happy. It would still take years to complete the faction but at least the process would be moving forward rather than at a standstill and being ignored like a bum by the highway.
Since when does Star Fleet set aside its own honor to pursue technologies it said it would not for the sake of war and the joy of conquest?
R.I.P
It's not really a question of Feds vs Klingon technology when it comes to cloaking. Klingons aren't the only ones that have it. The Romulans have this tech also.
The question is should the Feds be able to acquire this tech and should the Devs be allowed to take the story in that direction. Personally I don't think so story-wise because of the reasons I mentioned earlier.
_____________________________________________________________
Being a Fed player, i'm with you on this . . i would actually like to see a lot more stuff for the KDF guys. If they did bring out a cloak for the feds i for one wouldn't use it, or indeed want it . . it just wouldn't seem right to me.
It never made any sense to me that the Feds would voluntarily tie their hands over the cloaking issue with the Romulans. The Tomed Incident must've been fairly horrible. In terms of canon, we've already seen that the Feds clearly aren't bound by the Treaty of Algeron anymore (doubt every Gal-X and Def-R in the game has a Romulan approved cloak) in this game.
That being said... there's no point in having two (or even one and a half) factions if there's nothing really unique in the gameplay between them. I play both, and I like that there is a non-cosmetic difference. Not much of a difference these days, but a difference nonetheless.
Romulan Empire is collapsed and the Federation is in perpetual war for survival.
Much like the USA which promises with the Geneva Convention to provide honorable trials and a strict adherance to NO torture for all prisoners under our care (whether war prisoners or not)...
...Yet the USA runs concentration camps, where these men, women, and children go to be brutalized, tortured, and killed without the protection of ANY law, without ANY trial, and without ANY charge.
You assume a government is just and honorable, even in war. This is a lie, and always shall be, no matter how "enlightened" a race becomes. The very idea behind ANY form of structured heirarchy is that of force - an opinion with a gun. Using violence to stifle peaceful dissent.
I wouldn't hold the Federation at all above that regard. They are, in the end, a government at war and struggling to maintain its sovereignty. They will use tactics and tools that are unlawful to achieve that, no ifs, ands, or buts.
It's ALWAYS happened in the past, and shall ALWAYS continue to happen.
"Yes, I fly a Galaxy-X... and yes, I just 1-shotted you with it." -- Alcione@Hakaishin
To repond to this would be to derail the thread.
He wrote a story of man having fallen to the very edge of the abyss of war, surving barely to recreate a better society where man no longer chose to follow the same path back to the abyss.
While what you describe is the human condition, his fictional humans strove to rise above.
This why everytime some character did decide to leap into the abyss and function by fighting fire with fire or by any means neccassary to win they where written and shown as being less than than the hero.
The fed team that designed the phase cloak where villians becuase they went to the abyss to do it.
The feds that conspired with klingons to assassinate the UFP president where villians because they too went the abyss.
The list goes on and on everytime the evils of war and the abyss that man could fall into was used as storyline.
That is why I say the feds are the hero and a by any means neccassary aproach to war is beneath them. Because they where written to rise above such old thinking in the world of Star Trek.
R.I.P
And that's show the Federation as a "The moment you become weaker then us, we'll just toss your treaties aside and do whatever we want." For one, all forces it has treaties with would be highly likely to back out/reconsider their stances. It certainly wouldn't win them ANY new friends.
Which is even more un-federation like then mass fielding fighters all the time.
Not to mention, the Pegasus isn't in mothballs. It's still half-inside a rock. And the phase cloak device + relevant data was given to the Romulans for destruction. (Or destroyed with Romulans watching)
It's not null. The Romulan empire might be shattered as a Government, but there isn't much to point at their military being in ruins.
I say if the Federation broke that treaty (Note I believe, nearly all treaties in the past were broken by the other side, not Federation), I'm sure the Romulans could gather a fleet big enough for a strike toward Earth. And with the Federation already stretched thin...
You did better than I could have. Thank you.
The Romulan Star Empire is not collapsed. They have stability issues, but that will get ironed out soon enough. The real issue is that the Romulan military did not go kaput with the loss of Romulus. Do you really think the majority of their military was sitting at Romulus?
Also, you're trying to impose what you believe in real world events with Star Trek.
Let me put it bluntly: Gene Roddenberry has made the Federation, in whatever production he has put his name on, as the bonafide "Good Guys." The Federation is honorable, sticks to its words and diplomatic agreements, even to a fault (recall the TNG episode with the captain of the USS Phoenix, a Nebula Cruiser, going apesh*t against the devious Cardassians, and the Enterprise called in to stop her, but the Phoenix's captain WAS right, but was going about it completely wrong).
Roddenberry's Federation, from TOS to TNG, up until his death, did not sneak around in cloaked ships. The Klingons did. The Romulans did. But not Roddenberry's "Good Guys" of Star Trek. They never did from the days of Kirk and even with his last pet project, TNG with Picard.
Even with Roddenberry's passing, this two things still persisted about the Federation being the "Good Guys."
1. The Federation's word and agreements are always binding to them. The Federation holds that dear, for it is through their WORD and diplomacy that the Federation became strong.
2. Starfleet did not, never has, in any official Star Trek movie or TV show, sneak around in Cloaked ships. This was NEVER Starfleet's style.
A Cloaked Starfleet goes against the very fiber of the theme and feel of the Federation in Star Trek.
Period.
You can try to twist things however you want, but holy jeez, if you have watched any number of Star Trek movies and TV shows, the very basic idea of a cloaked Starfleet is JUST WRONG.
play kdf you can have one for free
@warmaker001b
there are two precedents of the good guy feds "sneaking about" in cloaked federation ships. the Defiant of DS9 is one and the alternate future Enterprise in "All Good Things" is another. with that in mind, they still had very good reasons to do so:
- in the case of the Defiant, any and all hopes of negotiation with the Dominion were non-existant, the station was poised in the cusp of war, and starfleet needed a means to fight back as well as operate in an environment where their odds for survival were very grim.
- in the case of the Enterprise, Riker's hands were officially tied as far as assisting Picard, but unofficially he wanted to do so more than anything. he managed to do so by getting the drop on the Klingons assaulting the Pasteur. once more, in this scenario starfleet is on the cusp of war (elements both in the JJverse movie and STO are prevalent in the finale as well, such as the destruction of Romulus and Klingons expanding into Romulan territory)
if anything can be gleaned from this, at the very worst, it seems that in times of war or if the Romulan Star Empire is destroyed, then it is "fair game" for the Federation to make use of cloaking technology.
you are relieved of duty and command
Thank you
oh man. i totally missed the episode of ds9 where Sisko was court-martialled for taking command of a cloaking starfleet vessel.
OH WAIT, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
I now refer you to TNG
where a RANKING officer was put under arrest for using a cloak in violation of treaty
now please stop messing up the sensible threads with your nasty , childish name calling and demands for more power for your escorts
i didnt know Admiral Riker was put under arrest for using cloak to save Picard. must have been after those episodes.
OH WAIT THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN EITHER.
please note that the specific examples i used were the Defiant and the Enterprise from "All Good Things". i even put up a summation on what particular clause would seem to invalidate the necessity to uphold the treaty of algeron (apparent war-time or dissolution of Romulus)
Not according to the executive order signed on stardate 2395 by then UFP president Aennik Okeg that bans all research into or the creation of a federation cloaking technology.
The two cloaking vessels that the feds enjoy now are special cases given to the feds faction at the behest of the feans who wanted to be able to fly two of the iconic vessels they remember from the series.
They are not a reprensetation of the UFP creating fleets of cloaked vessels but exist enmasse only becuase any player can buy them as they see fit for purposes of playing the game.
to quote the path to 2409;
" The narrow legal view may be that the Treaty of Algeron ended when Romulus was destroyed,"
Okeg says, " The Romulan EMpire we knew is gone, and you are a new people. What has not changed is the Federations commitment to peace."
R.I.P
you are missing that, in the case of the Defiant, the cloaking device was installed by the Romulans, and operated by a Romulan, when they went in search of the founders to try to make peace with the Dominion. that cloaking device remained installed on the Defiant, with the permission of the RSE. now of course that does not explain why, when the Defiant was destroyed and replaced by the Sao Paulo, that they decided to have a cloaking device on that ship, since the Defiant was the only ship of its class to actually have a cloaking device installed.
But yes the Enterprise E did have a cloaking device installed in an alternate time line, she also had 3 warp nacells and BFG. but since the Enterprise E was destroyed, obviously that future variant will no come to be.
Now one could argue that the Federation should not have cloaking devices because of the treaty, but, you could speculate that the one branch of the Federation government that follows its own rules, may be using cloaking devices on their own ships, without the knowledge of Starfleet command. I mean after all, if i was in a spy agency that answered to no one, why wouldn't I use a cloaking device on a small ship, making it easier to spy on people or move agents around to different planets unnoticed.
the broken thread theory erases all secondary or alternate timelines
of course cloaked escorts are even less use than visible ones
yes, thats why i said "at the very worst".
although, if that executive order is verbatim, there is nothing stopping starfleet or any of its covert branches from installing a cloaking device that was already complete prior to the issuing of the order, does it? i mean, if the device is already complete and only needs installation that is not really "creating" cloaking technology, merely activating it.
scroffula in vulcans
severe head aches in telepaths
and loss of savings to ferengi
(fact from alternate universe doctor who is as valid as the impossible admiral riker)
Real "letter of the law" type here.
Why grab at straws?
The Path to 2409 clearly states no Fed cloaks.
If the Devs decide to violate this that is on them. Sure worked with the Caitian Carrier and the Armitage, despite them saying on multiple occasions there would be no such monsters. Then again if they go against the path of 2409 I just may leave the game. I can only take so much double talk after all. Then again it would not matter to them if I do leave the game. They got a good chunk of my money and F2P relies on roll over.
Still there is no reason to rationalize Fed battlecloak on all Fed ships.
oh no, don't get me wrong. personally i would rather the uniqueness of certain abilities in factions (like battlecloak). it's just that, let's face it, we already have precedents that violate the executive order as it is in the form of mass numbers of defiant retrofits, and starfleet somehow managing to get their hands on blueprints for a galaxy class ship that exists in an alternate timeline. as it stands, people might as well learn to try and live with the possibility. after all, a wise saying goes "hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst".
Honour thy WORD
Any ship operating a cloak in the ALPHA or BETA quadrants in starfleet service is in violation of treaty
and its CO is due for a visit from JAG
but you sir are a greedy power monger and want everything your way to the detriment of the game the Ip and the freedoms of the civilised peoples of the cosmos
the stipulations for the use of cloaking only in the gamma quadrant was drawn up for the Defiant and only the Defiant. this is primarily due to the fact that the AGT Enterprise is, well, an alternate timeline, but the wordings for it was very clear. honoring the word would apply only to those captaining a defiant retrofit, not those that head a gal-x
personally I would remove the cloak from it and use it as a federation battleship
but there are many mirror universe captains and its fine for THEM to put a cloak on it (as long as they aren't technically in starfleet)
but all their hair will fall out
I just accept it as those ships were presented on screen as having cloaks, for that reason is how they are in game and am forced to move on. Hell I have both the Defiant-R and the Gal-X and I NEVER use the cloak myself. The console slot is too valuable. Others perceive cloak to big a huge advantage. Maybe in the opening but I seldom can run away fast enough or long enough to be able to recloak once the fighting starts in PvP.
Which is why, I guess, so many Fed only players want battlecloak. But as our host, Roach, has pointed out so many Fed only players are so put off by how the KDF is portrayed in the game that they would die before they roll a KDF to see what the true trade off is for battlecloak.