I could see your point if UGC missions where being sold in the c-store, that would be a no brainer they were making a profit off of it, but otherwise I think it will be an extremely tough sell otherwise to prove there is a corralation between UGC and Cryptics profits when it finally hits.
It's not hard to correlate at all. They can pull statistics to find out what percentage of player time is spent on which faction, PvEing, PvPing, playing specific official missions, and playing UGC missions. In short, they know what parts of the game we play. And they know how much we pay to play. Therefor it's simple math to figure out what sort of content people are paying for, all the way down to time spent on specific UGC missions.
The math I demonstrated before shows the process in practice.
Suppose for a minute that they do cave in and marketing allows this, but with a catch.
UGC now comes with a price since they have to pay players, then what?
They'd be double-billing us. We're already paying for UGC content, just like we pay for all other content, with our monthly subscription fees.
If an arguement can be made that they are making a profit somehow on UGC then I could also see them making an arguement to raise prices on c-points, c-store, and or sub fees to cover their loss of potential revenue.
If they can't afford to give authors 5% of the new revenue they're getting with UGC content, they already look greedy. If they then try to recoup that loss by charging more elsewhere, they'll look even more greedy. Companies can always make the argument to raise prices. At some point the consumers stop buying their product. That's just capitalism.
Also, in order to cover all the loopholes and abuse avenues to prevent people from cheating the system, your looking at imposing a pretty solid amount of restrictions to cover it all.
My proposal already includes preventative measures to avoid abuse.
From my experience players do not like a ton of restrictions for content they are paying for and if you impose too many just to cover the issue of people getting paid in a fair way then your looking at a potential bomb for UGC preventing UGC from ever seeing its full potential with soo many players turned off by all the restrictions imposed on it just to prevent people from cheating ( insuring all the money that is made stays going to a select couple of fleets).
Eh? None of the preventative measures of my proposal affect UGC players at all. They can play the missions as often and for as long as they like. The restrictions simply cap their contribution to the authors' reward after 30 minutes, but that isn't something they see in-game. It's backend logic, hidden away in the number crunching.
In the spirit of UGC, I still think it should be about having fun, nothing more.
I agree. Which is why Cryptic shouldn't be making a profit on it. But they do. So that should trickle down to the UGC authors.
Ok, well, what about the people who DO go ahead and make UGC and have it played while you are still here debating what you get for it. Will you play UGC made by others while you are still here debating what you should get for it? Or are you going to stand to your principles and refuse to play any UGC untill you are guarinteed compensation for work you have yet to produce? Regardless of what you 'debate' in this thread, the UGC program will go ahead, and people will produce and play UGC, and Cryptic will let you dangle here for ever deciding what 'You' think should happen.
By that logic we should never have threads telling Cryptic what we want.
And besides, I'm not playing STO since they're putting the NX class in it. That was the last straw for me. I wish I had the chance to explore the UGC engine and make content for others to play, but Cryptic already burned that bridge by making the game a ridiculous hodgepodge of nonsense.
As for those who use the UGC system regardless of reward, well... sad fact is the vast majority of future users probably don't even realize they're making money for Cryptic. Cryptic hasn't exactly been up front about that. And why should they be? It's in their own interest to keep us ignorant of the fact that we're contributing to their paychecks with no reward. It's like tricking a population into voluntary servitude. It's one thing to knowingly volunteer your time for others' profit, but another thing entirely to do so unknowingly.
SOME trekies think it is unethical and unthinkable that cryptic makes any money
on star trek...how dare them? Star trek should be Free !
Well in the forum during beta.
Cryptic has to make money and the same could be said about big guilds in mmos.
Look how we promote the game...were is our cut?
Early SWG....we built a player city...where is our cut ?
The universal reply
We did the work and made the risk investing in making this game...you didn't.
If you don't like it, don't play.
And they are right. it is cryptic's game, not ours.
By that logic we should never have threads telling Cryptic what we want.
And besides, I'm not playing STO since they're putting the NX class in it. That was the last straw for me. I wish I had the chance to explore the UGC engine and make content for others to play, but Cryptic already burned that bridge by making the game a ridiculous hodgepodge of nonsense.
As for those who use the UGC system regardless of reward, well... sad fact is the vast majority of future users probably don't even realize they're making money for Cryptic. Cryptic hasn't exactly been up front about that. And why should they be? It's in their own interest to keep us ignorant of the fact that we're contributing to their paychecks with no reward. It's like tricking a population into voluntary servitude. It's one thing to knowingly volunteer your time for others' profit, but another thing entirely to do so unknowingly.
if you're not going to play...then why are you here, complaining about not getting paid to make fanfic? would Cryptic paying players for UGC lead you to a change of heart?
As for those who use the UGC system regardless of reward, well... sad fact is the vast majority of future users probably don't even realize they're making money for Cryptic.
What does kind of disturb me is what will the rate of Cryptic content after UGC? They're already slow as dirt when it comes to new content, and they seem to be backing off the weekly schedule already. After the current one ends we'll not see another until January (I don't want to hear holidays as an excuse, I don't get them off from my place of business), and dtstahl is talking about a poll to see if people would mind them being slowed down for 'quality' purposes.
I didn't expect weeklies would be able to fly forever, but I didn't expect them to be caving on them this fast. Guess they're looking to UGC to be lazy...I mean, fill in.
if you're not going to play...then why are you here, complaining about not getting paid to make fanfic? would Cryptic paying players for UGC lead you to a change of heart?
otherwise, this is illogical.
As I've said all along this system isn't for me; it's a matter of principle. I don't like anyone being taken advantage of, let alone authors and other makers of original works. Believe it or not... it's possible to want what's right for other people, even if there's no benefit to yourself.
What does kind of disturb me is what will the rate of Cryptic content after UGC? They're already slow as dirt when it comes to new content, and they seem to be backing off the weekly schedule already. After the current one ends we'll not see another until January (I don't want to hear holidays as an excuse, I don't get them off from my place of business), and dtstahl is talking about a poll to see if people would mind them being slowed down for 'quality' purposes.
I didn't expect weeklies would be able to fly forever, but I didn't expect them to be caving on them this fast. Guess they're looking to UGC to be lazy...I mean, fill in.
That's a definite concern.
I honestly didn't think UGC would replace the level of development they're already putting in--I rather thought it was a substitute for them hiring more developers to speed up development to be better competitive with other MMOs.
But as you mention, the proposed rate of "weeklies" is already dropping. I honestly think they realized it would from the get-go. They don't have a writing staff like television series do--they can't hope to output as many stories at a high rate of quality. It's certainly beginning to feel like the "weeklies" were a stopgap measure until they could get UGC in place.
as far as...the cryptic content will fall off.....honestly don't know
if the player missions are interesting enuff, and thier is enuff of them....2 big IFs
then cryptic might push some resources into creating the Romulan faction, or fleshing
out the Klingons better.
Maybe polish up some stuff that is lacking.
They only have X number of employees...so you can only do so much at a time.
They're already slow as dirt when it comes to new content, and they seem to be backing off the weekly schedule already. After the current one ends we'll not see another until January (I don't want to hear holidays as an excuse, I don't get them off from my place of business), and dtstahl is talking about a poll to see if people would mind them being slowed down for 'quality' purposes.
I didn't expect weeklies would be able to fly forever, but I didn't expect them to be caving on them this fast. Guess they're looking to UGC to be lazy...I mean, fill in.
This must be your first MMO as I would like to inquire what MMO puts out content at asubstantially faster rate then teh STO Devs atm?
WoW - Nope.
EVE Online - two major updates a year, (every 6 months) about equal in size to an STO season update with regard to features/equipment. (And in addition to the weeklies; if STO Season 3 hits sometime in December; that's 3 Season updates in 9 months time.)
Hyperbole doesn't help your point. How much Dev content we'll see post the Foundey is unknown until th Foundry launches; but Dstahl seems to think it won't impact Dev mission development, or the 'Featured Episodes'; but we won't know until the Foundry is on-line, out of beta (and I mean the open beta which is a stage it hasn't even gotten to as yet.) Time will tell.
As I've said all along this system isn't for me; it's a matter of principle. I don't like anyone being taken advantage of, let alone authors and other makers of original works. Believe it or not... it's possible to want what's right for other people, even if there's no benefit to yourself.
.
We're not being taken advantage of. If anything, we're given a unique opportunity to contribute to Trek lore in ways that I've always dreamed of. I mean, wow, I can create a Trek story of my own, and potentially have thousands of other players experience it. My story, my writing, and my contribution to trek lore shared with the masses.
That is a wonderful thing. You certainly don't speak for what is right for me.
Trekkies have been writing fanfics since 1966. UGC takes that to another level, one in which distribution isn't a huge setback. Try to get you fanfic published elsewhere and you're looking at circulation costs that total a lot more than $15/month. See if you can self-publish in paperback for that. See if you can get enough people to your fanfic website for that. Really, see what you can do to get your fanfic read with such a small budget.
I'm very excited. If you're not, then I respect that. Don't try to ruin my fun by pretending to have my best interests in heart.
This must be your first MMO as I would like to inquire what MMO puts out content at asubstantially faster rate then teh STO Devs atm?
WoW - Nope.
Very wrong.
With one week per mission we're talking a max of 52 missions per year, and then they aren't actually coming out every week.
There were 1.5-2 years between each of Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, and Cataclysm. I can't speak for Cataclysm but BC and WotLK had hundreds of quests. That averages out to a lot more than 52 quests per year.
Maybe if STO releases large expansions things will balance out, but so far their expansion methodology seems to be based around these small, regular updates.
We're not being taken advantage of. If anything, we're given a unique opportunity to contribute to Trek lore in ways that I've always dreamed of. I mean, wow, I can create a Trek story of my own, and potentially have thousands of other players experience it. My story, my writing, and my contribution to trek lore shared with the masses.
Just because they're giving you something doesn't mean you're not still being taken advantage of. Them adding UGC benefits you by letting you tell your story, and it benefits them by helping them make money on our creative efforts.
Like you said, people have been writing fanfics for a long time. But how often does another party profit on those efforts? Well... someone is here.
This must be your first MMO as I would like to inquire what MMO puts out content at asubstantially faster rate then teh STO Devs atm?
You assume incorrectly. I've been playing one MMO or another since the launch of EverQuest in 1999.
At one point EQ was putting out full expansions every other month.
WoW has had massive updates that add hundreds of quests per shot, and hours upon hours of potential game play.
The thing with both of those? They both had more content from day one than STO has 9 months in. People like to point out the massive updates STO has had since launch, and I argue that they have had nothing really happen since launch. EQ and WoW both may not update 'as often', but when they do, they add more content in one update than STO has in 9 months put together.
Want to know why? I joined STO not too long before the level cap was raised, and I STILL managed to nearly max my level and see all the content this game has to offer before my free 30 days was up. That was playing pretty casual too.
The bottom line is STO severely lacks content. I'd kind of expect a dev team to be working on more actual content and fleshing out game play, but what do we see instead? Using artist time to do fan service things like make 250 year old ships because some sucker will pay extra for it. Jumping from one project to another while never really finishing the first, leaving long standing bugs in place...the list goes on and on.
The one glimmer of hope to me was the weekly episodes, but even that seems like it will fall to the wayside.
UGC could be a good thing, or it could be a disaster, only time will tell on that one...but since I honestly can't remember the last time I logged on to play for anything other than the weekly I'm not sure I'll be around to see it. I can't see continuing to pay for something that I only log in once a week for 5 weeks, and then not bother until the next series pops up.
You assume incorrectly. I've been playing one MMO or another since the launch of EverQuest in 1999.
At one point EQ was putting out full expansions every other month..
Yeah, I remember those expansions too - one really requested feature (like say the ability to view a zone map); and one or two areas with uber MOBs that you had to have raid =level gear to engage (and no, I'm not talking of the first twio years when SOE was doing proper expansions like Ruins of Kunark or Scars of Vellious; BUT those '2 month' expansions were usually:
- Overpriced (yes, they were pay)
- Bugged as hell (and never fixed)
And even though the nrunning joke back then was SOE did one every two months, the reality was different:
The Ruins of Kunark (March 2000)
The Scars of Velious (December 2000)
The Shadows of Luclin (December 2001)
The Planes of Power (October 2002)
The Legacy of Ykesha (February 2003)
Lost Dungeons of Norrath (September 2003)
Gates of Discord (February 2004)
Omens of War (September 2004)
Dragons of Norrath (February 2005)
^^^^^
The above is all the expansions tht were released in my EQ days (I quit in 2004 but do recall reading the announcement of Dragons of Norrath.) So again, got any other empirical evidence the STO content Dev cycle is 'slow as dirt'?
I bought it the day it came out, do you know how old it makes me feel to have been a 'seasoned' MUD player before that. Kids these days, I started out with an abbacus and a card reader, you have no idea how good you got it and you are quibbleing over this?
Ah, MUDs. That's where I got my start in RP, game coding, and game administration. Funny you should mention them... the one I was on the longest, we compensated players for their contributions to the environments. We had enough staff that we could watch and reward for outstanding roleplaying, arc writing, etc.
What are you even babbling about? I started out writing programs in TI BASIC for one of the very earliest home computers in my teens. Zippidy do da? What does this have to do with anything? Not much, but for whatever reason you seem to have some fixation on age.
What are you even babbling about? I started out writing programs in TI BASIC for one of the very earliest home computers in my teens. Zippidy do da? What does this have to do with anything? Not much, but for whatever reason you seem to have some fixation on age.
I got you beat.
IBM BASICA on a Tandy 1000HX in 1988 when I was 8 years old.
Make'n games complete with 16 colors and 3-channel audio!
mmk, so i was reading one of the MMO news sites covering UGC in STO and there was concern over whether it was FAIR for devs to implement a feature that was essentially charging people a monthly sub to develop content for them.
yeeeea, i don't think that's happening, the devs won't head to the beach once UGC comes out... (they can't... dev skin vaporizes on contact with sunlight)
some guy in Texas with a $139 tricorder replica won't be crafting our weekly episodes on a Mountain Dew fueled fanfic spree (he'll be in the Cryptic office)
BUT i think there will always be the possibility that someone will create something so kick-TRIBBLE that the devs will integrate it into the game (like a sticky... in the forum of our hearts...)
Sooo if this situation comes to pass would the creators get a lil sum'n sum'n? like C-Moneys?
I think since what will no doubt end up being the vast majority of content for the player base is going to have to be created by the player base anyone providing the game with content that is used by others should play for free.
I think since what will no doubt end up being the vast majority of content for the player base is going to have to be created by the player base anyone providing the game with content that is used by others should play for free.
In principle I don't have a problem with that idea, but it doesn't scale. Someone who makes one mission of poor quality gets a free month? Too much reward.
An expansion to my proposal sort of covers this, though. If you were rewarded in C-Points that scaled with how much the mission was played, and if you could buy a month's subscription on the C-Store, you could effectively buy yourself free game time if your missions are popular and contribute enough to the game. Since $15 equates to 1200 C-Points, that's how many you'd have to earn... give or take.
It also has the side benefit of turning "Time Cards" into "C-Point Cards", which expands their usefulness. Got a friend who likes to buy ships on the C-Store? Buy them a C-Point Card worth $15. Or they can use it to buy game time. Either way. More flexible.
Just because they're giving you something doesn't mean you're not still being taken advantage of. Them adding UGC benefits you by letting you tell your story, and it benefits them by helping them make money on our creative efforts.
Like you said, people have been writing fanfics for a long time. But how often does another party profit on those efforts? Well... someone is here.
Will the game benefit from my efforts? I certainly hope so. Will I get something out of it. Yes.
You're not being very clear on how I'm being exploited or taken advantage of.
As a ugc author, I profit immensely from the system.
I'm gaining an audience. I'm able to contribute to Trek lore in my own small way. I'm making missions in a Star Trek video game, which is a privilege, since I never went to school for anything related to video games. It's an enormous gift to the fanbase, especially one like ours that has been immersed in fanfics for 40 years. Plus, it's fun, far more enjoyable than endlessly grinding in an mmo. That's work.
Is Cryptic benefiting from the my labors of love? I certainly hope so. They've put lots of time and effort into giving us the tools to tell our stories. If the game becomes popular due to the amazing stories that Trekkers tell, due to the wonderful efforts of devoted fans, and due to the willingness of the playerbase to play our missions... it's a win for all involved.
And when players are suddenly given more content than they can play... Well, I hope that they players appreciate that.
If you don't want to make a ugc mission, that's fine.
However, you shouldn't characterize a UGC author as some kind of exploited and mindless dupe who is manipulated by a profit-seeking company. We're not chums. We're not being exploited.
We're passionate fans with stories to tell, and we're going to revolutionize this game.
In principle I don't have a problem with that idea, but it doesn't scale. Someone who makes one mission of poor quality gets a free month? Too much reward.
An expansion to my proposal sort of covers this, though. If you were rewarded in C-Points that scaled with how much the mission was played, and if you could buy a month's subscription on the C-Store, you could effectively buy yourself free game time if your missions are popular and contribute enough to the game. Since $15 equates to 1200 C-Points, that's how many you'd have to earn... give or take.
It also has the side benefit of turning "Time Cards" into "C-Point Cards", which expands their usefulness. Got a friend who likes to buy ships on the C-Store? Buy them a C-Point Card worth $15. Or they can use it to buy game time. Either way. More flexible.
What do you want to be the motivating force for UGC authors?
It's seems to me that we'll see the highest quality of missions from people who make the missions out of artistic passion, obsession with Trek canon, and a desire to finally write "that" episode of Trek that they've always wanted to see.
We're far more likely to see quality content if there is not a reason to try to exploit the system for c-store points, monthly sub reductions or other factors.
Those 99.999999% of games don't make a profit on the work of those modders, level designers, etc. .
Trying to get caught up on this debate...
This is not true. Valve profits incredibly from the efforts of modders and mappers. Half-life 2 thrives on modding. The game is still being played by huge numbers, and the game is still selling due to how large its community is. The stable and huge playerbase also leads investors and top decision makers to support Half Life 3.
Without the modders and mappers, the game may have a short shelf life. With an active community of modders, the game may last for years, increasing the revenue and resources of the game makers.
However, you shouldn't characterize a UGC author as some kind of exploited and mindless dupe who is manipulated by a profit-seeking company. We're not chums. We're not being exploited.
We're passionate fans with stories to tell, and we're going to revolutionize this game.
That's fine. That's your choice. But you would in no way be negatively affected if others' accept their commissions. For that matter you wouldn't be negatively affected if you get one, either. It wouldn't change the reasons why you author UGC. So why disapprove of the system?
If it does potential good for others and doesn't harm you, there's no reason not to have it.
What do you want to be the motivating force for UGC authors?
It's seems to me that we'll see the highest quality of missions from people who make the missions out of artistic passion, obsession with Trek canon, and a desire to finally write "that" episode of Trek that they've always wanted to see.
We're far more likely to see quality content if there is not a reason to try to exploit the system for c-store points, monthly sub reductions or other factors.
I agree completely that the best work will likely be from those with an artistic passion. They'll go on to make the best missions which are played the most. My proposed system of reward doesn't change any of that. I don't know why you seem to think it would.
The best artists in history were artists because they wanted to be... not because they were out to make a quick buck.
This is not true. Valve profits incredibly from the efforts of modders and mappers. Half-life 2 thrives on modding. The game is still being played by huge numbers, and the game is still selling due to how large its community is. The stable and huge playerbase also leads investors and top decision makers to support Half Life 3.
Without the modders and mappers, the game may have a short shelf life. With an active community of modders, the game may last for years, increasing the revenue and resources of the game makers.
Mhm. Half-Life 2 had a pretty short life. Even its multiplayer mode has fallen out of popularity. It's games based on the engine, such as Team Fortress 2, Counter-Strike: Source, and Left4Dead, that have remained popular. I know. I was recently given ownership of a gaming clan that's based primarily around TF2. I host a TF2 server and two Left4Dead2 servers, myself.
But I digress. That's not really the point I'm going after...
That's a different profit model than what we're seeing here. Valve doesn't make money directly by the work the community does. When a person buys a copy of HL2, they aren't buying all the community-created mods and maps. Those are free. They can download those at any time and Valve doesn't make money. Valve just makes money on the price of the box.
Now, one can try to quantify the value of people buying HL2 with the community contributions in mind, but the community contributions themselves remain free.
With STO, they don't. The only way to get the community contributions for STO is to pay Cryptic to access them. You can't go out to a free website and download them for free. STO profits on their distribution.
Cryptic's model is more akin, but still not quite the same, as TF2's online store in which you can buy community contributions. And guess what? The creators of the contributions make profit, too.
Moral of the story? If a third party company makes direct profit on community contributions, the community should get a piece of it. Your example doesn't change that.
That would be the point I keep making. It is a 'Socialist' attitude - contribute to the common good without desire for compensation. Kinda like how StarFleet is set up, but I digress.
Perhaps we should all be Capitolists - er - Ferengi, out for our own personal profit at the expense of everybody else - gimmie 5G for my Koik Klone OR ELSE!
Point of fact... I don't like capitalism. And I'm not taking the position I am to support capitalism. If anything... my position demonstrates why I don't like it. I see Cryptic making profit off the work of others and those others not getting their share. Personally I think STO should have a F2P model that includes all of our UGC creations.
STO will NOT last forever, no MMO does. Consider that there is now a way for the user-base to continue STO post-Cyrptic via UGC. We should be planning NOW for the day that WILL come when Cryptic says goodbye to us and we say hello to the raw code that we have to keep online ourselvs.
You're fooling yourself if you think Cryptic will release their game engine as open source or sell it to someone else in any kind of near future once they stop supporting the game. And you're also fooling yourself if you think any common nerd has the server or bandwidth capacity to host it. The game, even on a small scale, would take a lot of resources. Plus, it's an engine Cryptic continues to use to create their new games... so giving it out would run the risk of helping people learn how to exploit/hack their other, active MMOs.
I am a nerd. tolver@tolver.com and tolver@tolver.net, got my own ISP and mailserver running on godaddy, had 7 machine server farm in my house once. I am not the only ubber-nerd here, between us we can keep STO alive forever. We just need for the bart simpsons to voluntairly step back so that the bill gates among us can step forward and be responsible about this whole process.
Okay... I had an "ISP" running out of my house when I was 16. I currently have a server hosted with the company I work for, hosting dual NS servers, a mail server, database, a half-dozen websites, and three game servers. I have 4 or 5 domain names registered right now.
And I know there ain't jack I would be able to do to keep a game as sophisticated and demanding as STO running.
I see it more as the UGC authors are contributing to the STO community not so much as to Cryptic. Sure, Cryptic is going to make money but there is more to the game than just the UGC, UGC is just part of the game. So, no I don't think there should be any compensation for UGC authors, and I plan on being one.
I see it more as the UGC authors are contributing to the STO community not so much as to Cryptic. Sure, Cryptic is going to make money but there is more to the game than just the UGC, UGC is just part of the game. So, no I don't think there should be any compensation for UGC authors, and I plan on being one.
Ah, but you can quantify exactly how much of a player's time is spent playing UGC, and therefor exactly how much UGC is contributing to their subscription income. It's only one piece of the larger game, but it's a piece we have a hand in creating and Cryptic has visibility into it.
So I guess we can lable each mission with what the aurthor wants for it ... hmmmm ... wonder how many free missions will get played versus those expensive missions. Lets see now, I can play a dozen 'blah' missions for free, and then I can spend 1000C to play that vulcan love slave thing, but that james bond thing I wont touch, so my evenings entertainment is 1 mission that I pay some cryptic credits for, a bunch of missions I play for free, and that 1 mission I got to play cause my fleet-mate wrote it, and look there is a new weekly eppisode from Cryptic... and all that is included in my monthly subscription fee, great. I sure hope some people play my mission, it is not that great but still I wrote it so I would like at least a few people to play it so I can get my accolade for writing a mission that got played. I feel so happy to be a part of the community, sharing in others creations as they share mine. I have a sence of belonging here.
Huh? What mission are you paying "cryptic credits" to play?
If you're suggesting players have to pay something extra in my system then you don't understand my system at all... all they have to "pay" is what they pay Cryptic already, with their subscription fees.
Rikaelus, my friend, your idea is just not feasible. It definitely has its allure but why would Cryptic pay for something that they originally made and have spent months trying to allow us to have some fun by making our own stories? This isn't like Thomas_the_Cat, where they bought something that belonged to him, they own the rights to this, which means, that they have no responsibility in giving the author monetary compensation. Okay, maybe if a story was so good that they want to buy the mission, yes, the story belongs to the player, but it is using CRYPTICS tools on CRYPTICS game, that belongs to CRYPTIC. So if you don't like that you are not getting any money, don't use the tools. Personally, I'm going to make the story that has been brewing in my head since I first heard about this game into a mission for everyone to enjoy.
Now, as I said, the story belongs to the player, which means that they can take the mission down whenever they want, and if Cryptic wants to own the story they have to buy it. Cryptic might also do contests with some C-point reward in the future, I don't know.
Comments
It's not hard to correlate at all. They can pull statistics to find out what percentage of player time is spent on which faction, PvEing, PvPing, playing specific official missions, and playing UGC missions. In short, they know what parts of the game we play. And they know how much we pay to play. Therefor it's simple math to figure out what sort of content people are paying for, all the way down to time spent on specific UGC missions.
The math I demonstrated before shows the process in practice.
They'd be double-billing us. We're already paying for UGC content, just like we pay for all other content, with our monthly subscription fees.
If they can't afford to give authors 5% of the new revenue they're getting with UGC content, they already look greedy. If they then try to recoup that loss by charging more elsewhere, they'll look even more greedy. Companies can always make the argument to raise prices. At some point the consumers stop buying their product. That's just capitalism.
My proposal already includes preventative measures to avoid abuse.
Eh? None of the preventative measures of my proposal affect UGC players at all. They can play the missions as often and for as long as they like. The restrictions simply cap their contribution to the authors' reward after 30 minutes, but that isn't something they see in-game. It's backend logic, hidden away in the number crunching.
I agree. Which is why Cryptic shouldn't be making a profit on it. But they do. So that should trickle down to the UGC authors.
By that logic we should never have threads telling Cryptic what we want.
And besides, I'm not playing STO since they're putting the NX class in it. That was the last straw for me. I wish I had the chance to explore the UGC engine and make content for others to play, but Cryptic already burned that bridge by making the game a ridiculous hodgepodge of nonsense.
As for those who use the UGC system regardless of reward, well... sad fact is the vast majority of future users probably don't even realize they're making money for Cryptic. Cryptic hasn't exactly been up front about that. And why should they be? It's in their own interest to keep us ignorant of the fact that we're contributing to their paychecks with no reward. It's like tricking a population into voluntary servitude. It's one thing to knowingly volunteer your time for others' profit, but another thing entirely to do so unknowingly.
SOME trekies think it is unethical and unthinkable that cryptic makes any money
on star trek...how dare them? Star trek should be Free !
Well in the forum during beta.
Cryptic has to make money and the same could be said about big guilds in mmos.
Look how we promote the game...were is our cut?
Early SWG....we built a player city...where is our cut ?
The universal reply
We did the work and made the risk investing in making this game...you didn't.
If you don't like it, don't play.
And they are right. it is cryptic's game, not ours.
but as long as it is fun, I will play
if you're not going to play...then why are you here, complaining about not getting paid to make fanfic? would Cryptic paying players for UGC lead you to a change of heart?
otherwise, this is illogical.
What does kind of disturb me is what will the rate of Cryptic content after UGC? They're already slow as dirt when it comes to new content, and they seem to be backing off the weekly schedule already. After the current one ends we'll not see another until January (I don't want to hear holidays as an excuse, I don't get them off from my place of business), and dtstahl is talking about a poll to see if people would mind them being slowed down for 'quality' purposes.
I didn't expect weeklies would be able to fly forever, but I didn't expect them to be caving on them this fast. Guess they're looking to UGC to be lazy...I mean, fill in.
As I've said all along this system isn't for me; it's a matter of principle. I don't like anyone being taken advantage of, let alone authors and other makers of original works. Believe it or not... it's possible to want what's right for other people, even if there's no benefit to yourself.
That's a definite concern.
I honestly didn't think UGC would replace the level of development they're already putting in--I rather thought it was a substitute for them hiring more developers to speed up development to be better competitive with other MMOs.
But as you mention, the proposed rate of "weeklies" is already dropping. I honestly think they realized it would from the get-go. They don't have a writing staff like television series do--they can't hope to output as many stories at a high rate of quality. It's certainly beginning to feel like the "weeklies" were a stopgap measure until they could get UGC in place.
if the player missions are interesting enuff, and thier is enuff of them....2 big IFs
then cryptic might push some resources into creating the Romulan faction, or fleshing
out the Klingons better.
Maybe polish up some stuff that is lacking.
They only have X number of employees...so you can only do so much at a time.
But in the end, we will just have to see.
This must be your first MMO as I would like to inquire what MMO puts out content at asubstantially faster rate then teh STO Devs atm?
WoW - Nope.
EVE Online - two major updates a year, (every 6 months) about equal in size to an STO season update with regard to features/equipment. (And in addition to the weeklies; if STO Season 3 hits sometime in December; that's 3 Season updates in 9 months time.)
Hyperbole doesn't help your point. How much Dev content we'll see post the Foundey is unknown until th Foundry launches; but Dstahl seems to think it won't impact Dev mission development, or the 'Featured Episodes'; but we won't know until the Foundry is on-line, out of beta (and I mean the open beta which is a stage it hasn't even gotten to as yet.) Time will tell.
We're not being taken advantage of. If anything, we're given a unique opportunity to contribute to Trek lore in ways that I've always dreamed of. I mean, wow, I can create a Trek story of my own, and potentially have thousands of other players experience it. My story, my writing, and my contribution to trek lore shared with the masses.
That is a wonderful thing. You certainly don't speak for what is right for me.
Trekkies have been writing fanfics since 1966. UGC takes that to another level, one in which distribution isn't a huge setback. Try to get you fanfic published elsewhere and you're looking at circulation costs that total a lot more than $15/month. See if you can self-publish in paperback for that. See if you can get enough people to your fanfic website for that. Really, see what you can do to get your fanfic read with such a small budget.
I'm very excited. If you're not, then I respect that. Don't try to ruin my fun by pretending to have my best interests in heart.
Very wrong.
With one week per mission we're talking a max of 52 missions per year, and then they aren't actually coming out every week.
There were 1.5-2 years between each of Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, and Cataclysm. I can't speak for Cataclysm but BC and WotLK had hundreds of quests. That averages out to a lot more than 52 quests per year.
Maybe if STO releases large expansions things will balance out, but so far their expansion methodology seems to be based around these small, regular updates.
Just because they're giving you something doesn't mean you're not still being taken advantage of. Them adding UGC benefits you by letting you tell your story, and it benefits them by helping them make money on our creative efforts.
Like you said, people have been writing fanfics for a long time. But how often does another party profit on those efforts? Well... someone is here.
You assume incorrectly. I've been playing one MMO or another since the launch of EverQuest in 1999.
At one point EQ was putting out full expansions every other month.
WoW has had massive updates that add hundreds of quests per shot, and hours upon hours of potential game play.
The thing with both of those? They both had more content from day one than STO has 9 months in. People like to point out the massive updates STO has had since launch, and I argue that they have had nothing really happen since launch. EQ and WoW both may not update 'as often', but when they do, they add more content in one update than STO has in 9 months put together.
Want to know why? I joined STO not too long before the level cap was raised, and I STILL managed to nearly max my level and see all the content this game has to offer before my free 30 days was up. That was playing pretty casual too.
The bottom line is STO severely lacks content. I'd kind of expect a dev team to be working on more actual content and fleshing out game play, but what do we see instead? Using artist time to do fan service things like make 250 year old ships because some sucker will pay extra for it. Jumping from one project to another while never really finishing the first, leaving long standing bugs in place...the list goes on and on.
The one glimmer of hope to me was the weekly episodes, but even that seems like it will fall to the wayside.
UGC could be a good thing, or it could be a disaster, only time will tell on that one...but since I honestly can't remember the last time I logged on to play for anything other than the weekly I'm not sure I'll be around to see it. I can't see continuing to pay for something that I only log in once a week for 5 weeks, and then not bother until the next series pops up.
Yeah, I remember those expansions too - one really requested feature (like say the ability to view a zone map); and one or two areas with uber MOBs that you had to have raid =level gear to engage (and no, I'm not talking of the first twio years when SOE was doing proper expansions like Ruins of Kunark or Scars of Vellious; BUT those '2 month' expansions were usually:
- Overpriced (yes, they were pay)
- Bugged as hell (and never fixed)
And even though the nrunning joke back then was SOE did one every two months, the reality was different:
The Ruins of Kunark (March 2000)
The Scars of Velious (December 2000)
The Shadows of Luclin (December 2001)
The Planes of Power (October 2002)
The Legacy of Ykesha (February 2003)
Lost Dungeons of Norrath (September 2003)
Gates of Discord (February 2004)
Omens of War (September 2004)
Dragons of Norrath (February 2005)
^^^^^
The above is all the expansions tht were released in my EQ days (I quit in 2004 but do recall reading the announcement of Dragons of Norrath.) So again, got any other empirical evidence the STO content Dev cycle is 'slow as dirt'?
Ah, MUDs. That's where I got my start in RP, game coding, and game administration. Funny you should mention them... the one I was on the longest, we compensated players for their contributions to the environments. We had enough staff that we could watch and reward for outstanding roleplaying, arc writing, etc.
What are you even babbling about? I started out writing programs in TI BASIC for one of the very earliest home computers in my teens. Zippidy do da? What does this have to do with anything? Not much, but for whatever reason you seem to have some fixation on age.
I got you beat.
IBM BASICA on a Tandy 1000HX in 1988 when I was 8 years old.
Make'n games complete with 16 colors and 3-channel audio!
Hmm. Hello, Mr. Tangent...
I think since what will no doubt end up being the vast majority of content for the player base is going to have to be created by the player base anyone providing the game with content that is used by others should play for free.
In principle I don't have a problem with that idea, but it doesn't scale. Someone who makes one mission of poor quality gets a free month? Too much reward.
An expansion to my proposal sort of covers this, though. If you were rewarded in C-Points that scaled with how much the mission was played, and if you could buy a month's subscription on the C-Store, you could effectively buy yourself free game time if your missions are popular and contribute enough to the game. Since $15 equates to 1200 C-Points, that's how many you'd have to earn... give or take.
It also has the side benefit of turning "Time Cards" into "C-Point Cards", which expands their usefulness. Got a friend who likes to buy ships on the C-Store? Buy them a C-Point Card worth $15. Or they can use it to buy game time. Either way. More flexible.
Will the game benefit from my efforts? I certainly hope so. Will I get something out of it. Yes.
You're not being very clear on how I'm being exploited or taken advantage of.
As a ugc author, I profit immensely from the system.
I'm gaining an audience. I'm able to contribute to Trek lore in my own small way. I'm making missions in a Star Trek video game, which is a privilege, since I never went to school for anything related to video games. It's an enormous gift to the fanbase, especially one like ours that has been immersed in fanfics for 40 years. Plus, it's fun, far more enjoyable than endlessly grinding in an mmo. That's work.
Is Cryptic benefiting from the my labors of love? I certainly hope so. They've put lots of time and effort into giving us the tools to tell our stories. If the game becomes popular due to the amazing stories that Trekkers tell, due to the wonderful efforts of devoted fans, and due to the willingness of the playerbase to play our missions... it's a win for all involved.
And when players are suddenly given more content than they can play... Well, I hope that they players appreciate that.
If you don't want to make a ugc mission, that's fine.
However, you shouldn't characterize a UGC author as some kind of exploited and mindless dupe who is manipulated by a profit-seeking company. We're not chums. We're not being exploited.
We're passionate fans with stories to tell, and we're going to revolutionize this game.
What do you want to be the motivating force for UGC authors?
It's seems to me that we'll see the highest quality of missions from people who make the missions out of artistic passion, obsession with Trek canon, and a desire to finally write "that" episode of Trek that they've always wanted to see.
We're far more likely to see quality content if there is not a reason to try to exploit the system for c-store points, monthly sub reductions or other factors.
Trying to get caught up on this debate...
This is not true. Valve profits incredibly from the efforts of modders and mappers. Half-life 2 thrives on modding. The game is still being played by huge numbers, and the game is still selling due to how large its community is. The stable and huge playerbase also leads investors and top decision makers to support Half Life 3.
Without the modders and mappers, the game may have a short shelf life. With an active community of modders, the game may last for years, increasing the revenue and resources of the game makers.
That's fine. That's your choice. But you would in no way be negatively affected if others' accept their commissions. For that matter you wouldn't be negatively affected if you get one, either. It wouldn't change the reasons why you author UGC. So why disapprove of the system?
If it does potential good for others and doesn't harm you, there's no reason not to have it.
I agree completely that the best work will likely be from those with an artistic passion. They'll go on to make the best missions which are played the most. My proposed system of reward doesn't change any of that. I don't know why you seem to think it would.
The best artists in history were artists because they wanted to be... not because they were out to make a quick buck.
Mhm. Half-Life 2 had a pretty short life. Even its multiplayer mode has fallen out of popularity. It's games based on the engine, such as Team Fortress 2, Counter-Strike: Source, and Left4Dead, that have remained popular. I know. I was recently given ownership of a gaming clan that's based primarily around TF2. I host a TF2 server and two Left4Dead2 servers, myself.
But I digress. That's not really the point I'm going after...
That's a different profit model than what we're seeing here. Valve doesn't make money directly by the work the community does. When a person buys a copy of HL2, they aren't buying all the community-created mods and maps. Those are free. They can download those at any time and Valve doesn't make money. Valve just makes money on the price of the box.
Now, one can try to quantify the value of people buying HL2 with the community contributions in mind, but the community contributions themselves remain free.
With STO, they don't. The only way to get the community contributions for STO is to pay Cryptic to access them. You can't go out to a free website and download them for free. STO profits on their distribution.
Cryptic's model is more akin, but still not quite the same, as TF2's online store in which you can buy community contributions. And guess what? The creators of the contributions make profit, too.
Moral of the story? If a third party company makes direct profit on community contributions, the community should get a piece of it. Your example doesn't change that.
Point of fact... I don't like capitalism. And I'm not taking the position I am to support capitalism. If anything... my position demonstrates why I don't like it. I see Cryptic making profit off the work of others and those others not getting their share. Personally I think STO should have a F2P model that includes all of our UGC creations.
You're fooling yourself if you think Cryptic will release their game engine as open source or sell it to someone else in any kind of near future once they stop supporting the game. And you're also fooling yourself if you think any common nerd has the server or bandwidth capacity to host it. The game, even on a small scale, would take a lot of resources. Plus, it's an engine Cryptic continues to use to create their new games... so giving it out would run the risk of helping people learn how to exploit/hack their other, active MMOs.
Okay... I had an "ISP" running out of my house when I was 16. I currently have a server hosted with the company I work for, hosting dual NS servers, a mail server, database, a half-dozen websites, and three game servers. I have 4 or 5 domain names registered right now.
And I know there ain't jack I would be able to do to keep a game as sophisticated and demanding as STO running.
Ah, but you can quantify exactly how much of a player's time is spent playing UGC, and therefor exactly how much UGC is contributing to their subscription income. It's only one piece of the larger game, but it's a piece we have a hand in creating and Cryptic has visibility into it.
Huh? What mission are you paying "cryptic credits" to play?
If you're suggesting players have to pay something extra in my system then you don't understand my system at all... all they have to "pay" is what they pay Cryptic already, with their subscription fees.
Now, as I said, the story belongs to the player, which means that they can take the mission down whenever they want, and if Cryptic wants to own the story they have to buy it. Cryptic might also do contests with some C-point reward in the future, I don't know.