I understand copyright and authors' rights laws, which is why I've never cited them. I know we waive our right to the content by signing the EULA. That doesn't change the fact that Cryptic is profiting on the work of UGC artists with no reimbursement going to those authors. My arguments aren't based in law; they're based in ethics.
Interestingly... if STO were F2P or had a F2P mode that included access to UGC, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Odd how different discussions can intertwine.
UGC missions are free. You're not paying extra for them.
You're paying for access to the game - which just happens to have missions made by players on top of everything the devs are doing. I don't see the ethical quandary - especially with the argument of derivative works comes in.
If I rip-off a Star Trek episode to create a mission (believe you-me these will be popular), then it is actually immoral for me to be compensated. That's why making something using derivative works for profit sounds immoral to me - unless you work out details with the original owner/author of the work being derived from, you shouldn't make a profit.
If you want people to make money off a work, then these people need to consult the owner whose creative work they're tinkering with.
Look at it from a another point of view. Whether we deserve a monetary reward (CP or otherwise) or not, why would we take part iin UGC?
We might take part because we want to bring our ideas and fanfics to life. Id like to think this is true of the majority.
We might take part so that we can boast about the stories we publish and garner respect. Hopefully, not, but it also doesnt hurt anyone i suppose.
We might take part because we are angry that the game is lacking content (not implying that it is, or not), and want to fix the problem ourselves.
We might take part because we expect a monetary reward? It seems to me that as long as its not this reason, you would have no problems making UGC content unpaid. And if it is this reason, you would simply not make content.
Rephrased, we may or may not deserve to be 'paid', but we wouldnt care either way. Now that sounds wrong, I know, but its also the truth of it.
UGC missions are free. You're not paying extra for them.
So what you're saying is... "UGC missions are free to those who pay."
Yeah...
When you pay a subscription fee to access content, you're paying to access all of that content, including UGC. I honestly don't understand how you're making the argument you're making when we very obviously have to pay to access this content.
I mean... you do. It's... really very obvious.
You might as well be telling me that 2+2="aardvark". I really don't know how to respond.
You're paying for access to the game - which just happens to have missions made by players on top of everything the devs are doing. I don't see the ethical quandary - especially with the argument of derivative works comes in.
And it "just happens" to have missions made by Cryptic. And you can bet your TRIBBLE that the mission authors who make that content get reimbursed for their effort.
Enter the ethical quandary. Why are some creators of content being reimbursed while others aren't? How is that fair to those who aren't? Both groups are contributing their creativity and time for the betterment of STO and the profit of STO, so why only reimburse one of those groups?
If I rip-off a Star Trek episode to create a mission (believe you-me these will be popular), then it is actually immoral for me to be compensated. That's why making something using derivative works for profit sounds immoral to me - unless you work out details with the original owner/author of the work being derived from, you shouldn't make a profit.
Cryptic is making profit on it. Wouldn't that make the entire UGC system immoral?
Rephrased, we may or may not deserve to be 'paid', but we wouldnt care either way. Now that sounds wrong, I know, but its also the truth of it.
That's your opinion, and I share it.
As I've said before, the reimbursement we seek isn't to substitute the simple desire to create. It's to offset the fact that Cryptic is making money on our creative works.
The problem is that it's unethical for Cryptic to make money on authors' work, which they're inherently doing by requiring a subscription to access it. If all someone wants to do is play the FanFic missions we make, they have to pay Cryptic monthly to access it. If the authors are compensated for their efforts then the ethical problem diminishes.
Here's an example.
Someone writes a series of FanFic UGC missions based on a storyline they've worked out with a friend. Their friend wants to experience it but doesn't have STO, and they really have no interest in STO otherwise. They buy STO and sign up for a monthly subscription to play the UGC missions taking place based on the storyline they've helped create.
That means that person would have bought STO specifically and totally on the basis not only of UGC, but a single author's UGC.
Now, of course, Cryptic is entitled to profit. The UGC content is using their art assets, server resources, engine, etc. But it's that UGC content that brought them to the game, without which Cryptic wouldn't have made that profit at all. It's that UGC content they've played and has provided them with entertainment.
The author isn't entitled to to at least a small percentage of that "profit"?
Generalize that example to the greater game and the lines certainly blur, but UGC remains a selling point for the game. And if someone is creating missions that are entertaining Cryptic's subscribers, why shouldn't Cryptic reimburse them for making the game better for those subscribers? We're actively helping Cryptic get and keep subscribers, and in turn make money. It seems completely reasonable to me that some of that should trickle down.
The principle would be the same if the mechanics were the same:
TF2: there's a store where you actually purchase items made via custom highly, skilled art assets by players.
NWN: no store but plenty of people bought the game if only to access the content people made on their own time.
STO: is not selling UGC content nor is highly skilled labor involved in creating UGC missions.
UGC requires significantly less work to assemble and is not sold via Cryptic.
You've drawn a specious analogy from too dissimilar examples.
I think there are a lot of folks that 'know' their stuff is SO good they deserve pay.
Reality check
1,000 dedicated writers
10 might be good enuff to apply for a job at cryptic
3 of them might get one if thier is a spot
1 cryptic might just offer a job from the start.
not 1,000 players....1,000 dedicated UGC writers
Thousands of fiction writers send scripts to a publisher...1000s and out of that a publisher
might choose 2 to take in as new talent 998 don't cut it.
Folks, we are doing this for fun....if your the 1 in 10,000 with stupid good skills and
insane natural talent...don't worry, cryptic will offer you a job.
They do keep an eye out for such things.
But don't ask to have them pay all the UGC writers....it is not in the budget.
I don't think anyone is suggesting the reimburse us in cash. :rolleyes:
well
There are about 3 or 4 poster that are.
granted half of them are on the UGC thread. But if memory serves your not one demanding a pay check
and the above post is definately not directed at you.
I think I need to relax and ignore trolls for a while, I should not let them get under my skin
as a side note, giving away store points is not giving away cash, however...
by giving away store points you reduce the amount of income they generate by infact
making them cheaper (over all....as in if 10000 units brings in 500 cash, if you start giving them
away....now 10000 now only bring in 400 cash) and that reduces potential profit.
It doesn't cost them money as a direct expense, it costs them money as reduced revenue.
Just as bad.
Not only will you not be paid they will take your UGC story arcs and sell them in the c-store. :P
They might as well. It's already possible for them to make a quantifiable profit on the content we make. They might as well yank the popular missions and put them in the C-Store for a higher profit margin.
I wonder if people would still be insisting we don't deserve reimbursement if that were to happen.
I don't want to insult anyone but I thought only communist would think about consuming things without paying somehow for it.
Haha, I got a few "lolz" from the "communist" comment considering the Federation is essentially a socialist/communist organization.
But more to the point - many computer games have a modding community, and I have yet to find a single one that charges money to download their work. Most sites merely ask for donations to help pay for bandwidth. It has been my experience (going on a decade now being involved with game mods) that people put in the time and hard work improving a game because they love the game. That's all the reason they need, and the most anyone ever asks is that you not re-use their work without giving them credit.
I do not want to see missions go the way of C-Store items, which is what it will come down to. Cryptic is not going to simply absorb the cost of doling out goodies to UGC mission builders. It will be passed on to the consumer. That's you.
So unless you want to pay a few bucks per mission, the idea of compensation is ridiculous, especially since no other modding community I've ever seen required compensation of any kind. And I've downloaded and/or participated in modding for games like IL-2 Forgotten Battles, Civ IV, Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, Fleet Command, Neverwinter Nights (original), and a host of others. I've never paid a dime nor have I ever asked for a dime. If the love of the game isn't enough, then get a better job instead of sniffing around for money.
And to the poster who said that people should get combat goodies from UGC building, my response is a resounding NO! One thing I like about the C-Store is that you can't buy anything from it that makes you more powerful. The game should be about skill and persistence in getting decent gear, not how much RL money you have in your wallet ... nor should it be about how well you can write or how good you are with the UGC tools. I don't like the idea of losing a PvP match, despite being the better player, because the other guy was able to afford (with RL money) a better piece of gear or because he wrote a cool mission.
I think this entire thread is a joke. Along with the other one complaining about paying in order to create content for Cryptic.
First of all, if you create a mission in the UGC you're not doing it for Cryptic, you're doing it for yourself. And possibly for the players. If you don't feel that way then don't create any UGC missions.
Secondly, I can't believe that people are complaining about this. I know, I know. The STO forumites complain about everything, but I have to admit that this still surprised me. People have been asking for Cryptic to add a UGC system to STO and when they do... the nerdrage begins.
I swear. If Cryptic sent FREE beer and hookers to every STO player's home they'd STILL complain!
You people are insane. Insane.
if anything ever needed to be stickied this is it:P
Haha, I got a few "lolz" from the "communist" comment considering the Federation is essentially a socialist/communist organization.
But more to the point - many computer games have a modding community, and I have yet to find a single one that charges money to download their work. Most sites merely ask for donations to help pay for bandwidth. It has been my experience (going on a decade now being involved with game mods) that people put in the time and hard work improving a game because they love the game. That's all the reason they need, and the most anyone ever asks is that you not re-use their work without giving them credit.
I do not want to see missions go the way of C-Store items, which is what it will come down to. Cryptic is not going to simply absorb the cost of doling out goodies to UGC mission builders. It will be passed on to the consumer. That's you.
So unless you want to pay a few bucks per mission, the idea of compensation is ridiculous, especially since no other modding community I've ever seen required compensation of any kind. And I've downloaded and/or participated in modding for games like IL-2 Forgotten Battles, Civ IV, Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, Fleet Command, Neverwinter Nights (original), and a host of others. I've never paid a dime nor have I ever asked for a dime. If the love of the game isn't enough, then get a better job instead of sniffing around for money.
The difference being, as I've pointed out, is that those modding communities you refer to aren't charging users to download the content and play the content they're hosting. The content is freely created and freely downloaded. No ethical dilemma, no justification to reimburse the content authors anything.
That isn't the case here.
With STO the content is due to be freely created, but you can only access and play it if you give Cryptic money. The ethical dilemma is that Cryptic is making a profit and it doesn't trickle down to content authors in any way.
Different situations, since in our case here there's money changing hands.
Some people are roleplayers and they pay their 15 $ a week to roleplay. To roleplay, they have to create characters with quirks and a personality, and to be able to interact with other people doing the same. No one is giving these roleplayers money for that. Yet, without the roleplayers, Crypti would have less subscriptions.
I PvP a lot these days. To make PvP interesting, people have to learn how to fly their ships, figure out the right abilities, optimize their character build and possibly build teams and team tactics.
In MMOs, every player is potentially creating content. The only ones that aren't are those that solo through every mission, do not use the exchange, never write a helpful commentary in Chat or the forums.
The difference being, as I've pointed out, is that those modding communities you refer to aren't charging users to download the content and play the content they're hosting. The content is freely created and freely downloaded. No ethical dilemma, no justification to reimburse the content authors anything.
But to play those mods, people have to buy the original game. Thus, benefiting the original developer.
With STO the content is due to be freely created, but you can only access and play it if you give Cryptic money. The ethical dilemma is that Cryptic is making a profit and it doesn't trickle down to content authors in any way.
When I used to do heavy raiding on WoW, I downloaded all kinds of mods for that game. Loot mods, dps meters, automatic pet feeders, arrow counters (played a hunter), kill trackers, and dozens of others. I had so many my game took forever to load.
Was I still paying a sub to play WoW? Yep. Was WoW making a profit? Yep.
And oddly enough, *many* of the common features you see in WoW now did not exist in the early game. They were "stolen" from modders and implemented into the game officially by Blizzard without the originators being paid a penny. And Blizzard makes how much per month?
Now, Blizzard has behaved unethically for "stealing" ideas from modders, but no one really complained because having mods become an official part of the game meant no mod conflicts and faster load times. Cryptic isn't doing that. In fact, why should Cryptic pay UGC builders to create missions using software Cryptic designed in the first place - and they're not even charging us extra to access it?
I just don't want to see the potential of UGC wasted because of greed and self-agrandizement. Ethical or not, I think you'll find that no one cares as long as access to UGC is free and the missions are free. People want the UGC missions, and I, for one, am eagerly waiting to get my hands on the software. I couldn't care less about compensation. I love the creative outlet. Most, I bet, feel the same way.
I'd also point out, as I think others have mentioned, there are a lot of labor laws to deal with when you start paying people for services (including UGC missions). Cryptic would have to deal with federal and state laws not to mention international laws, and that, my friend, would create so much bureaucratic red tape and extra legal counciling (at Cryptic's expense) that you'd never see UGC otherwise.
Some people are roleplayers and they pay their 15 $ a week to roleplay. To roleplay, they have to create characters with quirks and a personality, and to be able to interact with other people doing the same. No one is giving these roleplayers money for that. Yet, without the roleplayers, Crypti would have less subscriptions.
I PvP a lot these days. To make PvP interesting, people have to learn how to fly their ships, figure out the right abilities, optimize their character build and possibly build teams and team tactics.
In MMOs, every player is potentially creating content. The only ones that aren't are those that solo through every mission, do not use the exchange, never write a helpful commentary in Chat or the forums.
If the value-add of that contribution can be programmatically quantified then I'd say they should be compensated or otherwise rewarded as well.
Back when I helped run a MUD we'd compensate outstanding roleplayers who we felt were enriching the environment, but that was a manual process based on personal experience of the contribution. If I recall correctly we added an "RP Point" currency for that compensation, though I can't recall what you could do with it... we might not have gotten that far.
A manual process for rewards obviously wouldn't work well with an MMO-scale game, and a programmatic solution would be near impossible to create and even if it were, it'd be very difficult to make abuse-proof.
But in principle you raise a good comparative point. The quality of the community is another selling point for STO and something else that can only be utilized through paying Cryptic, so Cryptic is also making a profit on our creative endeavors in that regard. That said, I'm all for rewards or reimbursements... if a system can be made to support it.
But to play those mods, people have to buy the original game. Thus, benefiting the original developer.
Yup. That's the developer getting their due for providing the engine, art assets, etc., that the modding community subsequently use. As mentioned, Cryptic is certainly entitled to some profit based on the UGC we author since we're using their engine, assets, servers, etc. It's the nature of the beast. But those who design the mission also deserve credit and compensation for the part they provide.
When I used to do heavy raiding on WoW, I downloaded all kinds of mods for that game. Loot mods, dps meters, automatic pet feeders, arrow counters (played a hunter), kill trackers, and dozens of others. I had so many my game took forever to load.
Was I still paying a sub to play WoW? Yep. Was WoW making a profit? Yep.
Those mods aren't content. They were UI mods. I used quite a few myself.
To prove I'm not blowing hot air: Standard / Full
Yeah, Blizzard arguably won some points for making the UI API to support third-party mods, but those mods were made for free, hosted for free by modding sites like Curse, and you could download them for free.
And oddly enough, *many* of the common features you see in WoW now did not exist in the early game. They were "stolen" from modders and implemented into the game officially by Blizzard without the originators being paid a penny. And Blizzard makes how much per month?
And it's rather unethical for Blizzard to have effectively stolen the idea of those mods for inclusion in WoW.
Now, Blizzard has behaved unethically for "stealing" ideas from modders, but no one really complained because having mods become an official part of the game meant no mod conflicts and faster load times. Cryptic isn't doing that. In fact, why should Cryptic pay UGC builders to create missions using software Cryptic designed in the first place - and they're not even charging us extra to access it?
Because we're actively adding playable content to their game which will give their subscribers a substantial amount of things to do, and having things to do is what draws people to subscribing. We're effectively helping to build the product they're selling. Our contribution might not be to the quality or scale of what their employees add but, just like their employees, we are helping to build the product they're profiting on.
I just don't want to see the potential of UGC wasted because of greed and self-agrandizement. Ethical or not, I think you'll find that no one cares as long as access to UGC is free and the missions are free. People want the UGC missions, and I, for one, am eagerly waiting to get my hands on the software. I couldn't care less about compensation. I love the creative outlet. Most, I bet, feel the same way.
Missions AREN'T free. The only way to play them is to pay Cryptic.
As I said before, if the STO client had an "offline mode" and you could download and play those missions without a subscription, then it would be free. If STO included a F2P model and those on it could play UGC, then it would be free.
And I fully support Cryptic investigating both options. Even allowing time-unrestricted demo accounts to play UGC content would sidestep this issue.
I'd also point out, as I think others have mentioned, there are a lot of labor laws to deal with when you start paying people for services (including UGC missions). Cryptic would have to deal with federal and state laws not to mention international laws, and that, my friend, would create so much bureaucratic red tape and extra legal counciling (at Cryptic's expense) that you'd never see UGC otherwise.
Only if they reimburse with cash, which I'm certainly not suggesting they do. Cryptic is free to give C-Points to whoever they want, whenever they want. It's their own internal currency.
mmk, so i was reading one of the MMO news sites covering UGC in STO and there was concern over whether it was FAIR for devs to implement a feature that was essentially charging people a monthly sub to develop content for them.
yeeeea, i don't think that's happening, the devs won't head to the beach once UGC comes out... (they can't... dev skin vaporizes on contact with sunlight)
some guy in Texas with a $139 tricorder replica won't be crafting our weekly episodes on a Mountain Dew fueled fanfic spree (he'll be in the Cryptic office)
BUT i think there will always be the possibility that someone will create something so kick-TRIBBLE that the devs will integrate it into the game (like a sticky... in the forum of our hearts...)
Sooo if this situation comes to pass would the creators get a lil sum'n sum'n? like C-Moneys?
Why would this even be discussed? CoH implemented UGC years ago. This is nothing new. No, you won't get reimbursed. No, you are not "making the devs' content for them". :rolleyes: Give me a break.
Why would this even be discussed? CoH implemented UGC years ago. This is nothing new. No, you won't get reimbursed. No, you are not "making the devs' content for them". :rolleyes: Give me a break.
UGC was around long before CoH, and there is plenty of precedence for the authors of it getting reimbursed when a company is making profit on the distribution of the content. I refer you to retail packs of maps for games like Duke Nukem 3D in the 90s. The people who made the maps were offered, for example, $120 per map included in the pack. I'm sure the offer varied from game to game and from pack to pack. $120/map is just what I have first-hand experience with.
And while we might not be making content exclusively for the game, we are making content for the game. So is Cryptic. And our part is obviously small. We aren't making art assets or code or mechanics. We're just making storylines, mission instructions, and dialogue. But that is something. It's a cog in the larger machine that Cryptic makes a profit on.
I doubt that I'm about to say anything that folks haven't figured out, but I just can't help myself.
Everyone, meet brick wall. You're wasting your time talking to brick wall. Brick wall is not ever going to change it's mind, ever. I would like to respectfully recommend that you stop beating your head against brick wall. It never helps, you just end up with a headache.
To Rikaelus, aka brick wall. Cryptic is not going to pay people for writing UGC missions. Period. It isn't going to happen, and worse, I believe that you know this. They may offer the occasional in-game bonus to some people that make excellent missions for contests, but due to overly complex California laws regarding contests they may not too. Either way, it ain't going to happen. You want to get paid or reimbursed by Cryptic? Send them your resume.
Anyway, I'm going to enjoy making missions in the Foundry. The fact that it will be fun will be my reimbursement.
As I've said before, the reimbursement we seek isn't to substitute the simple desire to create. It's to offset the fact that Cryptic is making money on our creative works.
Ah i see. I didnt read everything in the thread. Well, in a way what i said still stands because even though it may or may not be unethical, we'd still willingly churn out missions in the creator. So there's no problem for cryptic to go forward like its planned now.
Put it this way, if a game, a retail one, non-sub based, got released and people came up with a ton of mods for it, which led to its increased popularity, technically if the developer released an expansion it owes some of the sales for it to those modders.
Look, would it be nice if UGC creators got something? Like credits or C-Points or vulcan hypno tribbles that mind meld the enemy? Yes.
Is anyone forcing people to make episodes? No.
Is Cryptic going to benefit the new episodes? Yes.
Is the UGC creator going to benefit as well? Yes.
For some folk, creating is its own reward.
/Anywho
:mad:
I HIGHLY doubt cryptic would place UGC missions in the C-Store - that would cause legal problems.
The first of which would be the requirement for them to obtain a signed (in ink) release form
from the mission creator. It would open up WAY too many cans of worms.
However, would, could ,should cryptic sell UGC content packs filled with extra goodies
for writers? I will not say if that is a good thing (I really don't know) but they legally could
do that.
Giving something away <for free> that is created and freely given for that purpose
is never a problem.
Try to sell it.......all kinds of problems
A lot of the current concerns is just paranoia.
This is the most like situation
UGC will be offered free to all current players..after they make sure it does not have offensive stuff
The really good ones will be given some kind of promotional status...understandable...Good missions
equal happy players.
They might sell special UGC packs with extra placeables...selling them to make up the expense of
making them...unless UGC drives up subscription number radically...then they will pump out
new stuff for it for free as fast as they can. IF say subscriptions rise 50% over 2-3 months..
.. cryptic will happily be shell shocked and will pour more resources to reenforce the gain.
I doubt that I'm about to say anything that folks haven't figured out, but I just can't help myself.
Everyone, meet brick wall. You're wasting your time talking to brick wall. Brick wall is not ever going to change it's mind, ever. I would like to respectfully recommend that you stop beating your head against brick wall. It never helps, you just end up with a headache.
Sorry, but I've put together a pretty solid proposal right down to the math used and how it benefits Cryptic/Atari at a value-add level in dollar measurements. At this point I could put together an Excel spreadsheet complete with calculations so Cryptic could tweak variables to see how the value-add and reward value levels could change the end result.
UGC in general-
- benefits players through giving them something to do
- benefits Cryptic/Atari through giving their players something to do, encouraging subscriptions
With my proposed reward system-
- It benefits authors through rewards that naturally scale with their value-add to the game
- It benefits Cryptic through earning the loyalty and continued subscribing of their authors
- It provides additional incentive for authors to make quality missions
And-
- It has inherent safeguards to prevent exploiting and third-party system gaming
The arguments against the proposal have amounted to-
- Because I don't need a reward; I'm creating because I want to
- Other MMOs don't do it
Nobody has actually argued against the math or concept or methods of my proposed system--they've only argued that such a system shouldn't exist. The thing is... those above arguments aren't very convincing,
To Rikaelus, aka brick wall. Cryptic is not going to pay people for writing UGC missions. Period. It isn't going to happen, and worse, I believe that you know this. They may offer the occasional in-game bonus to some people that make excellent missions for contests, but due to overly complex California laws regarding contests they may not too. Either way, it ain't going to happen. You want to get paid or reimbursed by Cryptic? Send them your resume.
You seem to be under the impression that I'm proposing authors get real money. I'm not. And if you think that you're clearly more interested in insulting me than paying attention to what's been said repeatedly.
Anyway, I'm going to enjoy making missions in the Foundry. The fact that it will be fun will be my reimbursement.
Good for you. Nothing I've said would ever take that away for you. So what's your problem? Why are you going to the lengths of insulting me to derail my idea when my idea in no way affects you negatively?
Someone previously made fun of the fact that UGC was wanted by the players and now that it's here, we're "complaining" about how it works.
Here's another ridiculous situation. I've proposed a system of reward for outstanding content that scales with how outstanding the content is, gives rewards to authors at no cost to Cryptic, and can go on to give authors C-Store items.... and people are effectively calling it stupid and unnecessary. Tell me how that makes sense.
No, I'm respecting the terms of the NDA. I cannot share anything too specific.
I can't for example, tell you if Cryptic brought their A-Game or if the Foundry represents Awesomesauce. I can't comment whether those statements are true (or not).
However, as Stormshade posted in another thread, the tools will be reaching a wider audience in the coming weeks. Then you can determine if the tools are OMGWTFBBQsauce or not.
If you were really "respecting" the NDA, you wouldnt be even be discussing the fact that your in the beta. And yes, I know your "allowed" to say that much, but saying your in beta just so you can say that you cant say anything else serves no purpose other than looking for attention.
Comments
UGC missions are free. You're not paying extra for them.
You're paying for access to the game - which just happens to have missions made by players on top of everything the devs are doing. I don't see the ethical quandary - especially with the argument of derivative works comes in.
If I rip-off a Star Trek episode to create a mission (believe you-me these will be popular), then it is actually immoral for me to be compensated. That's why making something using derivative works for profit sounds immoral to me - unless you work out details with the original owner/author of the work being derived from, you shouldn't make a profit.
If you want people to make money off a work, then these people need to consult the owner whose creative work they're tinkering with.
We might take part because we want to bring our ideas and fanfics to life. Id like to think this is true of the majority.
We might take part so that we can boast about the stories we publish and garner respect. Hopefully, not, but it also doesnt hurt anyone i suppose.
We might take part because we are angry that the game is lacking content (not implying that it is, or not), and want to fix the problem ourselves.
We might take part because we expect a monetary reward? It seems to me that as long as its not this reason, you would have no problems making UGC content unpaid. And if it is this reason, you would simply not make content.
Rephrased, we may or may not deserve to be 'paid', but we wouldnt care either way. Now that sounds wrong, I know, but its also the truth of it.
So what you're saying is... "UGC missions are free to those who pay."
Yeah...
When you pay a subscription fee to access content, you're paying to access all of that content, including UGC. I honestly don't understand how you're making the argument you're making when we very obviously have to pay to access this content.
I mean... you do. It's... really very obvious.
You might as well be telling me that 2+2="aardvark". I really don't know how to respond.
And it "just happens" to have missions made by Cryptic. And you can bet your TRIBBLE that the mission authors who make that content get reimbursed for their effort.
Enter the ethical quandary. Why are some creators of content being reimbursed while others aren't? How is that fair to those who aren't? Both groups are contributing their creativity and time for the betterment of STO and the profit of STO, so why only reimburse one of those groups?
Cryptic is making profit on it. Wouldn't that make the entire UGC system immoral?
Doesn't hurt to ask, right?
That's your opinion, and I share it.
As I've said before, the reimbursement we seek isn't to substitute the simple desire to create. It's to offset the fact that Cryptic is making money on our creative works.
The problem is that it's unethical for Cryptic to make money on authors' work, which they're inherently doing by requiring a subscription to access it. If all someone wants to do is play the FanFic missions we make, they have to pay Cryptic monthly to access it. If the authors are compensated for their efforts then the ethical problem diminishes.
Here's an example.
Someone writes a series of FanFic UGC missions based on a storyline they've worked out with a friend. Their friend wants to experience it but doesn't have STO, and they really have no interest in STO otherwise. They buy STO and sign up for a monthly subscription to play the UGC missions taking place based on the storyline they've helped create.
That means that person would have bought STO specifically and totally on the basis not only of UGC, but a single author's UGC.
Now, of course, Cryptic is entitled to profit. The UGC content is using their art assets, server resources, engine, etc. But it's that UGC content that brought them to the game, without which Cryptic wouldn't have made that profit at all. It's that UGC content they've played and has provided them with entertainment.
The author isn't entitled to to at least a small percentage of that "profit"?
Generalize that example to the greater game and the lines certainly blur, but UGC remains a selling point for the game. And if someone is creating missions that are entertaining Cryptic's subscribers, why shouldn't Cryptic reimburse them for making the game better for those subscribers? We're actively helping Cryptic get and keep subscribers, and in turn make money. It seems completely reasonable to me that some of that should trickle down.
I think there are a lot of folks that 'know' their stuff is SO good they deserve pay.
Reality check
1,000 dedicated writers
10 might be good enuff to apply for a job at cryptic
3 of them might get one if thier is a spot
1 cryptic might just offer a job from the start.
not 1,000 players....1,000 dedicated UGC writers
Thousands of fiction writers send scripts to a publisher...1000s and out of that a publisher
might choose 2 to take in as new talent 998 don't cut it.
Folks, we are doing this for fun....if your the 1 in 10,000 with stupid good skills and
insane natural talent...don't worry, cryptic will offer you a job.
They do keep an eye out for such things.
But don't ask to have them pay all the UGC writers....it is not in the budget.
I don't think anyone is suggesting the reimburse us in cash. :rolleyes:
well
There are about 3 or 4 poster that are.
granted half of them are on the UGC thread. But if memory serves your not one demanding a pay check
and the above post is definately not directed at you.
I think I need to relax and ignore trolls for a while, I should not let them get under my skin
as a side note, giving away store points is not giving away cash, however...
by giving away store points you reduce the amount of income they generate by infact
making them cheaper (over all....as in if 10000 units brings in 500 cash, if you start giving them
away....now 10000 now only bring in 400 cash) and that reduces potential profit.
It doesn't cost them money as a direct expense, it costs them money as reduced revenue.
Just as bad.
They might as well. It's already possible for them to make a quantifiable profit on the content we make. They might as well yank the popular missions and put them in the C-Store for a higher profit margin.
I wonder if people would still be insisting we don't deserve reimbursement if that were to happen.
Haha, I got a few "lolz" from the "communist" comment considering the Federation is essentially a socialist/communist organization.
But more to the point - many computer games have a modding community, and I have yet to find a single one that charges money to download their work. Most sites merely ask for donations to help pay for bandwidth. It has been my experience (going on a decade now being involved with game mods) that people put in the time and hard work improving a game because they love the game. That's all the reason they need, and the most anyone ever asks is that you not re-use their work without giving them credit.
I do not want to see missions go the way of C-Store items, which is what it will come down to. Cryptic is not going to simply absorb the cost of doling out goodies to UGC mission builders. It will be passed on to the consumer. That's you.
So unless you want to pay a few bucks per mission, the idea of compensation is ridiculous, especially since no other modding community I've ever seen required compensation of any kind. And I've downloaded and/or participated in modding for games like IL-2 Forgotten Battles, Civ IV, Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, Fleet Command, Neverwinter Nights (original), and a host of others. I've never paid a dime nor have I ever asked for a dime. If the love of the game isn't enough, then get a better job instead of sniffing around for money.
And to the poster who said that people should get combat goodies from UGC building, my response is a resounding NO! One thing I like about the C-Store is that you can't buy anything from it that makes you more powerful. The game should be about skill and persistence in getting decent gear, not how much RL money you have in your wallet ... nor should it be about how well you can write or how good you are with the UGC tools. I don't like the idea of losing a PvP match, despite being the better player, because the other guy was able to afford (with RL money) a better piece of gear or because he wrote a cool mission.
if anything ever needed to be stickied this is it:P
The difference being, as I've pointed out, is that those modding communities you refer to aren't charging users to download the content and play the content they're hosting. The content is freely created and freely downloaded. No ethical dilemma, no justification to reimburse the content authors anything.
That isn't the case here.
With STO the content is due to be freely created, but you can only access and play it if you give Cryptic money. The ethical dilemma is that Cryptic is making a profit and it doesn't trickle down to content authors in any way.
Different situations, since in our case here there's money changing hands.
I PvP a lot these days. To make PvP interesting, people have to learn how to fly their ships, figure out the right abilities, optimize their character build and possibly build teams and team tactics.
In MMOs, every player is potentially creating content. The only ones that aren't are those that solo through every mission, do not use the exchange, never write a helpful commentary in Chat or the forums.
When I used to do heavy raiding on WoW, I downloaded all kinds of mods for that game. Loot mods, dps meters, automatic pet feeders, arrow counters (played a hunter), kill trackers, and dozens of others. I had so many my game took forever to load.
Was I still paying a sub to play WoW? Yep. Was WoW making a profit? Yep.
And oddly enough, *many* of the common features you see in WoW now did not exist in the early game. They were "stolen" from modders and implemented into the game officially by Blizzard without the originators being paid a penny. And Blizzard makes how much per month?
Now, Blizzard has behaved unethically for "stealing" ideas from modders, but no one really complained because having mods become an official part of the game meant no mod conflicts and faster load times. Cryptic isn't doing that. In fact, why should Cryptic pay UGC builders to create missions using software Cryptic designed in the first place - and they're not even charging us extra to access it?
I just don't want to see the potential of UGC wasted because of greed and self-agrandizement. Ethical or not, I think you'll find that no one cares as long as access to UGC is free and the missions are free. People want the UGC missions, and I, for one, am eagerly waiting to get my hands on the software. I couldn't care less about compensation. I love the creative outlet. Most, I bet, feel the same way.
I'd also point out, as I think others have mentioned, there are a lot of labor laws to deal with when you start paying people for services (including UGC missions). Cryptic would have to deal with federal and state laws not to mention international laws, and that, my friend, would create so much bureaucratic red tape and extra legal counciling (at Cryptic's expense) that you'd never see UGC otherwise.
If the value-add of that contribution can be programmatically quantified then I'd say they should be compensated or otherwise rewarded as well.
Back when I helped run a MUD we'd compensate outstanding roleplayers who we felt were enriching the environment, but that was a manual process based on personal experience of the contribution. If I recall correctly we added an "RP Point" currency for that compensation, though I can't recall what you could do with it... we might not have gotten that far.
A manual process for rewards obviously wouldn't work well with an MMO-scale game, and a programmatic solution would be near impossible to create and even if it were, it'd be very difficult to make abuse-proof.
But in principle you raise a good comparative point. The quality of the community is another selling point for STO and something else that can only be utilized through paying Cryptic, so Cryptic is also making a profit on our creative endeavors in that regard. That said, I'm all for rewards or reimbursements... if a system can be made to support it.
Yup. That's the developer getting their due for providing the engine, art assets, etc., that the modding community subsequently use. As mentioned, Cryptic is certainly entitled to some profit based on the UGC we author since we're using their engine, assets, servers, etc. It's the nature of the beast. But those who design the mission also deserve credit and compensation for the part they provide.
Those mods aren't content. They were UI mods. I used quite a few myself.
To prove I'm not blowing hot air: Standard / Full
Yeah, Blizzard arguably won some points for making the UI API to support third-party mods, but those mods were made for free, hosted for free by modding sites like Curse, and you could download them for free.
And it's rather unethical for Blizzard to have effectively stolen the idea of those mods for inclusion in WoW.
Because we're actively adding playable content to their game which will give their subscribers a substantial amount of things to do, and having things to do is what draws people to subscribing. We're effectively helping to build the product they're selling. Our contribution might not be to the quality or scale of what their employees add but, just like their employees, we are helping to build the product they're profiting on.
Missions AREN'T free. The only way to play them is to pay Cryptic.
As I said before, if the STO client had an "offline mode" and you could download and play those missions without a subscription, then it would be free. If STO included a F2P model and those on it could play UGC, then it would be free.
And I fully support Cryptic investigating both options. Even allowing time-unrestricted demo accounts to play UGC content would sidestep this issue.
Only if they reimburse with cash, which I'm certainly not suggesting they do. Cryptic is free to give C-Points to whoever they want, whenever they want. It's their own internal currency.
Why would this even be discussed? CoH implemented UGC years ago. This is nothing new. No, you won't get reimbursed. No, you are not "making the devs' content for them". :rolleyes: Give me a break.
UGC was around long before CoH, and there is plenty of precedence for the authors of it getting reimbursed when a company is making profit on the distribution of the content. I refer you to retail packs of maps for games like Duke Nukem 3D in the 90s. The people who made the maps were offered, for example, $120 per map included in the pack. I'm sure the offer varied from game to game and from pack to pack. $120/map is just what I have first-hand experience with.
And while we might not be making content exclusively for the game, we are making content for the game. So is Cryptic. And our part is obviously small. We aren't making art assets or code or mechanics. We're just making storylines, mission instructions, and dialogue. But that is something. It's a cog in the larger machine that Cryptic makes a profit on.
Everyone, meet brick wall. You're wasting your time talking to brick wall. Brick wall is not ever going to change it's mind, ever. I would like to respectfully recommend that you stop beating your head against brick wall. It never helps, you just end up with a headache.
To Rikaelus, aka brick wall. Cryptic is not going to pay people for writing UGC missions. Period. It isn't going to happen, and worse, I believe that you know this. They may offer the occasional in-game bonus to some people that make excellent missions for contests, but due to overly complex California laws regarding contests they may not too. Either way, it ain't going to happen. You want to get paid or reimbursed by Cryptic? Send them your resume.
Anyway, I'm going to enjoy making missions in the Foundry. The fact that it will be fun will be my reimbursement.
Ah i see. I didnt read everything in the thread. Well, in a way what i said still stands because even though it may or may not be unethical, we'd still willingly churn out missions in the creator. So there's no problem for cryptic to go forward like its planned now.
Put it this way, if a game, a retail one, non-sub based, got released and people came up with a ton of mods for it, which led to its increased popularity, technically if the developer released an expansion it owes some of the sales for it to those modders.
But of course thats not how it works.
Is anyone forcing people to make episodes? No.
Is Cryptic going to benefit the new episodes? Yes.
Is the UGC creator going to benefit as well? Yes.
For some folk, creating is its own reward.
/Anywho
:mad:
I HIGHLY doubt cryptic would place UGC missions in the C-Store - that would cause legal problems.
The first of which would be the requirement for them to obtain a signed (in ink) release form
from the mission creator. It would open up WAY too many cans of worms.
However, would, could ,should cryptic sell UGC content packs filled with extra goodies
for writers? I will not say if that is a good thing (I really don't know) but they legally could
do that.
Giving something away <for free> that is created and freely given for that purpose
is never a problem.
Try to sell it.......all kinds of problems
A lot of the current concerns is just paranoia.
This is the most like situation
UGC will be offered free to all current players..after they make sure it does not have offensive stuff
The really good ones will be given some kind of promotional status...understandable...Good missions
equal happy players.
They might sell special UGC packs with extra placeables...selling them to make up the expense of
making them...unless UGC drives up subscription number radically...then they will pump out
new stuff for it for free as fast as they can. IF say subscriptions rise 50% over 2-3 months..
.. cryptic will happily be shell shocked and will pour more resources to reenforce the gain.
THATS what you can expect.
It will be fun, lets see where it goes.
Your a tease
Sorry, but I've put together a pretty solid proposal right down to the math used and how it benefits Cryptic/Atari at a value-add level in dollar measurements. At this point I could put together an Excel spreadsheet complete with calculations so Cryptic could tweak variables to see how the value-add and reward value levels could change the end result.
UGC in general-
- benefits players through giving them something to do
- benefits Cryptic/Atari through giving their players something to do, encouraging subscriptions
With my proposed reward system-
- It benefits authors through rewards that naturally scale with their value-add to the game
- It benefits Cryptic through earning the loyalty and continued subscribing of their authors
- It provides additional incentive for authors to make quality missions
And-
- It has inherent safeguards to prevent exploiting and third-party system gaming
The arguments against the proposal have amounted to-
- Because I don't need a reward; I'm creating because I want to
- Other MMOs don't do it
Nobody has actually argued against the math or concept or methods of my proposed system--they've only argued that such a system shouldn't exist. The thing is... those above arguments aren't very convincing,
You seem to be under the impression that I'm proposing authors get real money. I'm not. And if you think that you're clearly more interested in insulting me than paying attention to what's been said repeatedly.
Good for you. Nothing I've said would ever take that away for you. So what's your problem? Why are you going to the lengths of insulting me to derail my idea when my idea in no way affects you negatively?
Someone previously made fun of the fact that UGC was wanted by the players and now that it's here, we're "complaining" about how it works.
Here's another ridiculous situation. I've proposed a system of reward for outstanding content that scales with how outstanding the content is, gives rewards to authors at no cost to Cryptic, and can go on to give authors C-Store items.... and people are effectively calling it stupid and unnecessary. Tell me how that makes sense.
If you were really "respecting" the NDA, you wouldnt be even be discussing the fact that your in the beta. And yes, I know your "allowed" to say that much, but saying your in beta just so you can say that you cant say anything else serves no purpose other than looking for attention.