No Klingon scientists?!? Are we not an older space going race than the humans? How do you think we got into space to begin with, without science? Osmossis? "Grand Theft Auto" style?
Actually, yes. Our first warp drives came from captured Hur'q vessels after Qo'noS was liberated from their occupation force. Those were later reverse-engineered to unlock the secrets of advanced technology, allowing Klingon warriors to make their first conquests in nearby starsystems. Hence our "Vikings in space" style - Klingon civilization was not advanced enough to do this on its own, we had help ... so to say.
Of course the Klingon Empire has scientists - the big difference is that the KDF doesn't employ dedicated research vessels, because its one and only role is, as its name implies, defence. Well, and conquest. In my opinion, the absence of "science ships" befits the difficulty that Klingon scientists have to face in their society (see Kurak), whilst it is still reasonable to have science officers on warships to deal with stellar anomalies or simply analyze unknown phenomenae and enemy technology (or employ delicate equipment the ordinary warrior is not trained to use).
Actually, yes. Our first warp drives came from captured Hur'q vessels after Qo'noS was liberated from their occupation force. Those were later reverse-engineered to unlock the secrets of advanced technology, allowing Klingon warriors to make their first conquests in nearby starsystems. Hence our "Vikings in space" style - Klingon civilization was not advanced enough to do this on its own, we had help ... so to say.
See, I learned something new today.
What roles will shuttles play and how many could one SF vessel deploy?
Actually, yes. Our first warp drives came from captured Hur'q vessels after Qo'noS was liberated from their occupation force. Those were later reverse-engineered to unlock the secrets of advanced technology, allowing Klingon warriors to make their first conquests in nearby starsystems. Hence our "Vikings in space" style - Klingon civilization was not advanced enough to do this on its own, we had help ... so to say.
Of course the Klingon Empire has scientists - the big difference is that the KDF doesn't employ dedicated research vessels, because its one and only role is, as its name implies, defence. Well, and conquest. In my opinion, the absence of "science ships" befits the difficulty that Klingon scientists have to face in their society (see Kurak), whilst it is still reasonable to have science officers on warships to deal with stellar anomalies or simply analyze unknown phenomenae and enemy technology (or employ delicate equipment the ordinary warrior is not trained to use).
Technically that is soft-canon and it is unknown how Klingons gained warp. If we use Soft-canon like the star charts, the Klingons actually had a space empire (10th century) before the Hur'q arrived in the 14th century. So there is some dispute as to where it came from.
I also have to disagree with the suggestions that Viking were not technologically advanced. Their ships (which they developed independently of other cultures) were by far the most advanced for their time and enabled them to travel to places no others could (by sea) at the time. Recent studies have shown that Viking swords were usually better quality steel than those of other Europeans, this has been attributed to what can be discerned about their forging techniques. However, I have always believed that the Klingons share a great deal with the Vikings, and so I see their approach to the sciences as similar (despite there being no "sciences" in Viking times). The Klingons are a practical people to them (as a people) science is a tool like a disruptor or a bat'leth meant to make their goals more achievable.
What roles will shuttles play and how many could one SF vessel deploy?
According to my idea? Well, depends on the ship type - the beauty of it is that the number of device slots would fit perfectly to this, since cruisers do carry more shuttles than small escorts. That being said, a cruiser could launch a maximum of four shuttles simultaneously, though in doing so he'd obviously sacrifice other devices such as batteries and capacitors, so this and the high cooldown are a tradeoff due to balancing.
After all, the shuttles would work in addition to what every SF ship already has. It's more like a little gimmick, not a major feature to rely on.
Technically that is soft-canon and it is unknown how Klingons gained warp. If we use Soft-canon like the star charts, the Klingons actually had a space empire (10th century) before the Hur'q arrived in the 14th century. So there is some dispute as to where it came from.
I like the explanation because it makes sense, for that Qo'noS was conquered by the Hur'q is hard canon (meaning they evidently didn't have the technology to successfully defend themselves), just as the impression that Klingons do not really appear to be "civilized enough" for a spacefaring species.
As for these star charts, do you have a link? I have never heard of a contradiction regarding this so far.
I also have to disagree with the suggestions that Viking were not technologically advanced. Their ships (which they developed independently of other cultures) were by far the most advanced for their time and enabled them to travel to places no others could (by sea) at the time.
Well, yeah, but they didn't fly into space, did they. :P
Klingons were also excellent warriors, and I reckon they were very skilled in forging as well - just look at the Sword of Kahless.
What I mean is that they were a medieval culture when the Hur'q arrived. The Hur'q enslaved the Klingons and forced them to work, but at some time the Klingons managed to break their chains and successfully rebelled against their invaders, forcing them to flee the planet. In the process, they captured some of their ships, which catapulted their society into post-warp overnight, completely skipping a thousand years of cultural development and enabling "the old ways" to prevail. See also the soft canon information on Ch'gran.
Klingon players wants something? like new ships? cryptics response: "oh sorry it got pushed back to season 10 ........ our team here at cryptic only caters to federation carebears.":rolleyes:
Hmm. I've never understood why some roleplayers are unable to make their ideas fit into the official setting. *shrugs*
I always prefer to see the limitations set forth by the canon as potential, not an enemy. After all, the setting is the basis on which every character interacts with each other, no? It's always sad to see some people rendering their RP "incompatible" to others.
I also have to disagree with the suggestions that Viking were not technologically advanced. Their ships (which they developed independently of other cultures) were by far the most advanced for their time and enabled them to travel to places no others could (by sea) at the time. Recent studies have shown that Viking swords were usually better quality steel than those of other Europeans, this has been attributed to what can be discerned about their forging techniques..
Actually the Vikings were highly techno savy and such skills were responsible for alot of european societal advancements that we take for granted today.
I posses a wonderful book on sword making during that age- quite enlightening.
Persoanlly I think the massive qauntities of beer and mead they drank was a big factor in thier extensive sea traveling as well.
I like the explanation because it makes sense, for that Qo'noS was conquered by the Hur'q is hard canon (meaning they evidently didn't have the technology to successfully defend themselves), just as the impression that Klingons do not really appear to be "civilized enough" for a spacefaring species.
I have no offense over the canon of it, but becareful in defining "civilized enough" when describing other races. Alot of the World's mistakes have been made under the guise of defining what makes one "civilized".
Hence the quotation marks. I think we all know what is meant.
I could have also said technologically advanced, but considering that we're argueing from a human point of view and Klingon culture is rather medieval-themed, I thought that this wording would emphasize it more than restricting it merely on scientific progress. One does influence the other, after all. Again: see how Klingon scientists are treated.
Hence the quotation marks. I think we all know what is meant.
I could have also said technologically advanced, but considering that we're argueing from a human point of view and Klingon culture is rather medieval-themed, I thought that this wording would emphasize it more than restricting it merely on scientific progress. One does influence the other, after all. Again: see how Klingon scientists are treated.
I'm rambling more than anything so no offense taken or meant.
Whether Kahless words may be interpreted with respect to the space-faring capabilities of Klingons at that time is not known. According to the non-canon Star Trek: Star Charts, the Klingons first achieved warp capability in the Earth year 930 AD, still within the time of Kahless and some six hundred years after the Vulcans. However, according to the manual for Star Trek: Klingon Academy (also non-canon), the Klingons acquired warp drive much later (14th century AD) from the Hur'q during the Hur'q conquest of Qo'noS (see below).
Its up for debate, I'm not opposed to the Hur'q idea, but I do not like the fact that it makes it seem the Klingons are without the abilities to discover warp on their own. Seeking adventure is one of the reasons the Vikings started exploring beyond their own lands and islands and they eventually ended up in North America and the Middle East, journeys that no other culture could have possibly made at the same time.
Actually the Vikings were highly techno savy and such skills were responsible for alot of european societal advancements that we take for granted today.
I posses a wonderful book on sword making during that age- quite enlightening.
Persoanlly I think the massive qauntities of beer and mead they drank was a big factor in thier extensive sea traveling as well.
I have an article pending publication that suggests that the Vikings were proto-capitalists. There is a plethora of evidence that they would sail into towns and decide to either raid them or trade with them depending well guarded the town appeared to be.
Its up for debate, I'm not opposed to the Hur'q idea, but I do not like the fact that it makes it seem the Klingons are without the abilities to discover warp on their own.
I wouldn't say they are without the capability - if you go by the Hur'q background from KA, the Klingons were obviously intelligent enough to reverse-engineer the technology from the ships they capture. I'm just saying they got it sooner than they would have discovered it otherwise.
Kind of as if, somehow, the Vikings would have managed to get their hands on a modern tank. Humans obviously had the ability to invent it ... just a thousand years later.
Thanks for the link, by the way. Though I have to say that I really don't see how the Klingons were supposed to colonize the stars when they were still recording their lore on paper scrolls. And obviously Molor could have just shot Kahless with a laser gun instead of all the swordplay if they had the technology. Not to mention the sillyness of besieging a city with 10.000 warriors only to burn it to the ground and kill the entire population when they could have just nuked it from orbit... It just doesn't fit to what else we know of the early Klingon history.
Okay I just got done reading this thread and here are my opinions.
In truth I have a klingon toon but to tell the truth I have not played him well since making LC on him. Reason not enough content for me. DO not get me wrong love PVP do it all the time on my FED but there is only so much PVP that I can take lol.
Now as for the issue with FEDs having carriers? Please and I mean please this is a no go. I honestly have to side with the Red on this. You have given the FED enormous amount of stuff and content. Boys time to put down the combadge and take up the Bat'Leth!
I wouldn't say they are without the capability - if you go by the Hur'q background from KA, the Klingons were obviously intelligent enough to reverse-engineer the technology from the ships they capture. I'm just saying they got it sooner than they would have discovered it otherwise.
Kind of as if, somehow, the Vikings would have managed to get their hands on a modern tank. Humans obviously had the ability to invent it ... just a thousand years later.
Thanks for the link, by the way. Though I have to say that I really don't see how the Klingons were supposed to colonize the stars when they were still recording their lore on paper scrolls. And obviously Molor could have just shot Kahless with a laser gun instead of all the swordplay if they had the technology. Not to mention the sillyness of besieging a city with 10.000 warriors only to burn it to the ground and kill the entire population when they could have just nuked it from orbit... It just doesn't fit to what else we know of the early Klingon history.
I am sorry if it appeared I was suggesting it was your opinion that the Klingons are incapable of producing warp technology. My concern is more that especially here in STO we will see those with agendas to close/kill off the KDF faction use things like the Hur'q as excuses to not further develop Klingon content (specifically science or crafting avenues).
While I see your points about what might appear to be anachronistic juxtapositions of technology, I fear that is a teleological argument. While it seems logical that certain developments follow a certain order, keep in mind that until recently we thought that things like steam power and electricity were very modern inventions. While I too find it hard to believe a society could invent warp technology before eliminating scrolls, but "there are more things in Heaven and Earth" than I can possibly explain.
I'd also like to point out that the fact the Klingons were defeated is not conclusive as far as starfaring capability is concerned.
The Bajorans had spacetravel long befor the Cardassians yet they were defeated, although one might argue it was in part due to the Bajoran mindset, I'D say the Cardassians has simply "outteched" them.
Assuming the Klingons had warp by the they were conquered as is indicated by several sources it would only mean the Hur'q were technologically far more advanced than the Klingons.
There is also the fact that Kahless pointed to a dinstant point of light and the Klingons actually got there, which would indicate they cetainly had an understanding of astronomy and interstllar navigation therwise it would have been impossible for them to properly record which star Kahless was pointing a and actually get there, unless on thinks this is just a dumb legend.
"The origins of the Klingon Empire began in around 854 AD, the so-called "Heroic Age of Qo'noS", when Kahless the Unforgettable united the many warring tribes of Qo'noS. Under Kahless's leadership, the Klingons began to expand their empire across the planet and out into the galaxy following the development of warp drive in 922 AD. (TNG episode: "Rightful Heir"; TNG novel: Kahless; ST reference: Star Charts) However, the First Klingon Empire fell in around 972 AD after the Hur'q, a race from the Gamma Quadrant, invaded Qo'noS and pillaged many of the Empires treasures, including the Sword of Kahless."
It is quite possible that after the Hur'q left Qo'nos the Klingons made a hughe leap forward technologically and it is certainly possible they would have been less advanced in let's say the 22nd century if they had not encountered the Hur'q but I think they would have been around then too.
Maybe not with disruptors but something more like Andorian particle weapons maybe with their entirely domestic developed disruptor, maybe with plasma weapons, who know.
But I would count on them going out to the stars even without the Hur'q just to see what's there and whom to beat up.
The Bajorans had spacetravel long befor the Cardassians yet they were defeated, although one might argue it was in part due to the Bajoran mindset, I'D say the Cardassians has simply "outteched" them.
Spacetravel, yes, but as far as I know not warp-travel. The militia ships we've seen in DS9 only had impulse, and the Bajoran ship that Sisko was rebuilding even only had solar sails. I also believe that scientists have a far easier life in Bajoran than in Klingon society.
There is also the fact that Kahless pointed to a dinstant point of light and the Klingons actually got there, which would indicate they cetainly had an understanding of astronomy and interstllar navigation therwise it would have been impossible for them to properly record which star Kahless was pointing a and actually get there, unless on thinks this is just a dumb legend.
Well, considering that this "fact" was passed on from generation to generation on a piece of parchment...
But even if the part of Kahless pointing to the stars would actually be true, nothing indicates he really got there. The way of his departure is not described, he simply vanished. It is well known that Kahless was not only a warrior and a leader but also a philosopher - his statement, "look for me there", could have been meant metaphorically. Kahless, the Ascendant, who will watch his people from the stars for eternity ... rather than Kahless the Traveller, who simply moved his physical body off-planet.
Oh for the love of pete...really?!?!?!?!? *facepalm*
Why would the feds need a carrier? They are part of an organization of peaceful exploration...something that Kirk had to realize in ST VI. This is something that Archer promoted in Enterprise. This is also the case on multiple occasions when speaking to aliens in TNG episodes when they ask about the function of the Federation. Anyway...if you follow the line of thought, their ships would be ships of exploration with the ability to act as ships of the line. They do not have dedicated warships unless they are heavy cruisers. People in the federation are not like KDF people. They do not live solely to die for glory and honor for themselves and the empire. So why would the feds place officers in a deployable ship from a carrier made for war? It would be an obsolete ship once the war was over..It would be 'mothballed' after the war was over just like most of our navy was after the cold war ended....
So, why would the feds need a carrier? All the feds are promoting is a keeping up with the Jones'...to use a literary image. I know the klinks don't have a mid-sized sci vessel like feds do, so we have been asking for it..BOP is too squishy and a carrier aint for everybody. In reference to your statement about no KDF sci officers, then explain to me why in Enterprise when Phlox was kidnapped by a KDF team to work for a KDF scientist, he stated that there were sci officers...there aren't many of them he said, but they are there and try to do good work....I mean honestly, why would KDF people not have the same tech to a degree the feds have? They had peace for a number of years, and you know that people will sell tech to other factions especially during war. No honorable KDF member would sell carrier secrets to the feds, and even if they did, they would not build them because the fed councils and members would be appalled that the feds were building warships when they were told they were peaceful explorers who must defend themselves and such....???
I know I have rambled on long enough but ask yourself those questions, and try to justify a fed carrier....would you like a scout ship too like the BOP?...I mean really....
If you read my earlier statements, I agree with the sentiment of Federation ships need to be both a form of exploration or patrol ship and combat capable. There are many things out there in the universe, and one thing forty years of trek has taught us is that it isn't a friendly place. How many wars have broken out since the Time of TNG? How many enemies are their gunning for the federation? While it would be true to say that federation doesn't make pure combat vessels, that does not mean that their ships are not up to combat standards, otherwise the enemies of the federation would have over whelmed them by now.
As for peaceful exploration. Yes, they are peaceful explorers. In that they walk around extending a hand of friendship and help to all who are in need of it. But a peaceful society would be ignorant and eventually self destructive if they also didn't realize that they need a real military power, not to conquer, but to repel efforts of the conquerors. So if you are trying to connect peaceful exploration with lack of warships, then that is a very circular argument, as neither is exclusive of each other. Watch the episode in TOS where we have Kirk trying to convince this one planet on the Neutral zone to side with them instead of the Klingons. Funnily enough, those inhabitants were better able to defend them selves then people thought, but more importantly, they went as far as comparing the Federation to being just as bad as the Klingons, hinting at both sides wanting a war, and willing to fight it. hmm hardly the peace loving federation every one loves to bring up.
Federation conquers people with diplomacy and peaceful co-existence, while the Klingons and a few other races would just conquer with just force of arms.
Now, I will admit, I should have clarified the scientist notion, as all races would need research to advance. Klingon scientist have been shown but at the same time they have also been shown to be second class to the warrior class and also only research means to empower the warrior class in its efforts. While federation scientist are equal if not more important to Star fleet and also expand the knowledge of the Federation for a sake of knowledge. We also see a discrepancy when it comes to the two sides use of science. Klingons scientist might examine spacial phenomena, but mostly to see if it can be used to further benefit their combat effectiveness, or interfere with their advance, and most Klingon vessels don't have science facilities on their vessel, as most vessels are designed for war. Federation always carry scientist, as they are off exploring even when they on other tasks. They can think fast with unique ides like using the deflector to give them an advantage. Deflector pulse, tachyon inversions, and a plethora of other ways to use deflectors really show case how important science is to the federation. Now I should have sated more clearly, that both sides should not have the same powers for science officers, as the truth is federation scientist are more capable in regards of spacial phenomena and other bizarre implementations of their knowledge, while Klingons are almost always geared to war, and research.
So why would the feds need a carrier? they don't. short, simple and what my sentiment has been about. What I do support is a class dependent on pets for their main function. I like the idea of a "drone frigate" as they would eventually realize that small support vessels can change the flow of battle, especially after watching the Klingons put it to good use against them (they can also field drones to give them better ways to explore more dangerous phenomena, like field drones to improve their shielding from hazardous radiation). Would they have fighters, probably not, as they value their lives more than Klingons do, but they would field computer control vessels that could deal with fighter attacks, or project defensive shields around them, or lay down a zone of control through some spacial anomaly they generate.
as I said before, I am not pro-federation, anti-Klingon; despite what many of you believe. I just support both sides equally. I would love to see more content come out for the Klingons, but I also don't agree with the notion of stopping production on the feds just to focus on the Klingons solely, just to give them there needed content. Why? becasue when they do decide that the Klingons are "Finished (Or up to snuff)" to make a new faction, I would still love to see content come out for the Klingons as well as the federation, as every side needs more content, especially at end game, instead of content only coming out for the Romulans, or Cardasians, leaving the other factions stagnant for content all the while.
So i do not support the feds getting an exact copy of the Klingon carrier, but I do believe they need a pet class which can summon unique pets that the federation can field. And I don't think shuttles are insufficient, nor the answer by giving all federation ship an extra ability that the Klingons can't use. While canon, it would divide the already big chasm between the sides, where as a new ship type, based on the forth class would be able to balance out, and also fill in a missing play style.
And no, the federation doesn't need a scout ship. Keep your kia of preys. That was never what was asked for, nor is it really Federation. Federation has specialized vessels, Klingons tend to have ships that are fielded to fulfill a multitude of roles.
While canon, it would divide the already big chasm between the sides, where as a new ship type, based on the forth class would be able to balance out, and also fill in a missing play style.
Hmmh. The Federation already has far more "new ship types" than the KDF simply due to the different Refits and their special abilities. They are not a category of their own, but their unique traits do make them stand out from the rest. Which actually fits nicely to the idea of Starfleet not focusing on distinctive categories but slightly specialized multi-role vessels. And surely, the shuttle idea could enhance the playstyle by a great deal, depending on how many device slots one is willing to sacrifice.
And no, the federation doesn't need a scout ship. Keep your kia of preys. That was never what was asked for
Well, some did, and now there's the Cloaked Defiant. Granted, no Battle Cloak, but she retains her stronger hull "to compensate". The way I see it, fighter combat is just one more point on the long list of unique KDF features that people want copied to Fed-side. The Cloak, Bat'leths and universal BO slots have already moved over.
Hmmh. The Federation already has far more "new ship types" than the KDF simply due to the different Refits and their special abilities. They are not a category of their own, but their unique traits do make them stand out from the rest. Which actually fits nicely to the idea of Starfleet not focusing on distinctive categories but slightly specialized multi-role vessels. And surely, the shuttle idea cound enhance the playstyle by a great deal, depending on how many device slots one is willing to sacrifice.
Nicely put...
Well, some did, and now there's the Cloaked Defiant. Granted, no Battle Cloak, but she retains her stronger hull "to compensate". The way I see it, fighter combat is just one more point on the long list of unique KDF features that people want copied to Fed-side. The Cloak, Bat'leths and universal BO slots have already moved over.
I just want the factions to be more distinctive.
And perhaps with enough whining we will see yet another KDF only feature go the way of the dodo...Perhaps if we had a targ poo chucking mini-game they would want it too???? Perhaps if we had another sector block (like was mentioned below by Varrigan)...they'd want that too...figures...
Hmmh. The Federation already has far more "new ship types" than the KDF simply due to the different Refits and their special abilities. They are not a category of their own, but their unique traits do make them stand out from the rest. Which actually fits nicely to the idea of Starfleet not focusing on distinctive categories but slightly specialized multi-role vessels. And surely, the shuttle idea cound enhance the playstyle by a great deal, depending on how many device slots one is willing to sacrifice.
Well, some did, and now there's the Cloaked Defiant. Granted, no Battle Cloak, but she retains her stronger hull "to compensate". The way I see it, fighter combat is just one more point on the long list of unique KDF features that people want copied to Fed-side. The Cloak, Bat'leths and universal BO slots have already moved over.
I just want the factions to be more distinctive.
Hmmm. I know of a way to make both sides feel more distinctive, Of course it would require a lot of work. One thing that hinders this is that fact that both factions have the exact same abilities. While some would be universally used, many other could be changed to have more distinctive flavor. Like ground science officers could summon targs, and Tactical could focus more on melee weapon combat, instead of stealth tactics.
Technology is just one of those weird things were looks make it more distinctive than actual tech is, after all technology is a universal thing and eventually if a culture stays in contact with another culture technology will start to blend. One thing that will never change is that Klingon ships will be more maneuverable and able to mount cannons, while Federation will always be tougher. Other then that, Looks and culture is where any real distinctiveness is going to come into play.
Hmmm. I know of a way to make both sides feel more distinctive, Of course it would require a lot of work. One thing that hinders this is that fact that both factions have the exact same abilities. While some would be universally used, many other could be changed to have more distinctive flavor. Like ground science officers could summon targs, and Tactical could focus more on melee weapon combat, instead of stealth tactics.
Technology is just one of those weird things were looks make it more distinctive than actual tech is, after all technology is a universal thing and eventually if a culture stays in contact with another culture technology will start to blend. One thing that will never change is that Klingon ships will be more maneuverable and able to mount cannons, while Federation will always be tougher. Other then that, Looks and culture is where any real distinctiveness is going to come into play.
well, fed ships are not always tougher...mayber tougher to manuver...but it's all in your spec. Anyway, the differences between every faction need to be kept and respected...I have no doubt that when roms make into game that the feds will want 50% of the rom unique tech or whatnot...because it's already happened to us in KDF land...and with giving feds yet another ship class and yet more ships, you take away what it is to be on the KDF side...If people want to fly a carrier, then create a KDF toon, level him/her (I did mine fast), and go fly one...sheesh.
ts up for debate, I'm not opposed to the Hur'q idea, but I do not like the fact that it makes it seem the Klingons are without the abilities to discover warp on their own.
I find both yes and no. As can see where it makes sense because I can see Humans doing the same in similiar circumstances. Being the once obviously enslaved (but soon toconquer thier masters) pet race of the Hur'q what technological mysteries yet revealed may we have left from those days.
[QUOTE Seeking adventure is one of the reasons the Vikings started exploring beyond their own lands and islands and they eventually ended up in North America and the Middle East, journeys that no other culture could have possibly made at the same time.
I still sure the most times freezing TRIBBLE weather back home so to speak and the beer/mead in the belly while they did these things helped.
I have an article pending publication that suggests that the Vikings were proto-capitalists. There is a plethora of evidence that they would sail into towns and decide to either raid them or trade with them depending well guarded the town appeared to be.
[/QUOTE]
Well yes, make perfect sense. Those may have been heavily drunken hardening seafairing anglo saxonish germanic norse heritaged people, but they were not stupid by any definition of the term. What or whom you can not conquer outright you barter with until you can. Good Luck on the article. Send me a link to it if you can.
Anyway, the differences between every faction need to be kept and respected...I have no doubt that when roms make into game that the feds will want 50% of the rom unique tech or whatnot...because it's already happened to us in KDF land...and with giving feds yet another ship class and yet more ships, you take away what it is to be on the KDF side...If people want to fly a carrier, then create a KDF toon, level him/her (I did mine fast), and go fly one...sheesh.
I could not say it better myself.... so I'm making it my signature.
Unless you mind.
I could not say it better myself.... so I'm making it my signature.
Unless you mind.
Nah, I don't mind. As I was wondering in a forum up in fed land wy I was being quoted...lol. I suppose I have found out why...keep the sig it looks good on ye'.
Gad I can't wait for Romulans to be put into game as a faction, then at least these silly 'but mom kenny's dad gave it ' threads can just stop... or get more interesting . That way we can appreciate the people that see themselves as a star trek gamer and not just a faction gamer -_-
Gad I can't wait for Romulans to be put into game as a faction, then at least these silly 'but mom kenny's dad gave it ' threads can just stop... or get more interesting . That way we can appreciate the people that see themselves as a star trek gamer and not just a faction gamer -_-
I agree. I can't wait to play a Romulan. I might consider a Cardassian, but more then likely will pass on them becasue I haven't had much exposure to them, and thus they hold little interest to me. I also look forward to the arguments in the future.
Would be interesting to see if the Romulans would get a few of the Klingons ships, as it is in cannon, or would cryptic make an all Romulan fleet from tier 1 to tier 5. I would love to see the B'rel on the Romulan side as well as those old moth ball D7s. :rolleyes:
Each time some Klingons complain and demand that the Feds never get something... They get it.
Some Klingons demanded no FvF ("it will be the end of the Klingon faction")... The Feds got FvF.
Some Klingons demanded no Fed Cloak ("it is the ONLY thing that makes us unique")... The Feds got Cloak.
Some Klingons demanded no Fed Universal BO slots ("it is the ONLY thing that makes us unique.. again")... The Nebula has a LT Universal BO slot.
Now this Klingon thread which demands that Feds not get carriers... So you know what that tells me.
It's all the Klingon's fault?;)
HMM, if they had that incredible power they should make a thread called
"no boring missions without rewards for Feds!" and scream in it long and loug enough until
Cryptic adds an entire campaign of mission to the Feds that are painfully boring and have no rewards.:D
Seriously I stop taking anyone um seriously when they start tossing out the Carebear insult.
As for Fed Carriers and unique features, ill trade the KDF unique carrier for the Fed unique PvE mission chains, not all of us want to PvP to be a Klingon, im tired of being a Fed but I cant spend more than an hour playing the klingon doing explore missions and waiting in 30 minute pvp queues,
yeah Im a carebear, so what? I am not a fan of PvP, shouldn't have to be to play an MMO that isnt centered around it.
Comments
Of course the Klingon Empire has scientists - the big difference is that the KDF doesn't employ dedicated research vessels, because its one and only role is, as its name implies, defence. Well, and conquest. In my opinion, the absence of "science ships" befits the difficulty that Klingon scientists have to face in their society (see Kurak), whilst it is still reasonable to have science officers on warships to deal with stellar anomalies or simply analyze unknown phenomenae and enemy technology (or employ delicate equipment the ordinary warrior is not trained to use).
In my opinion, the better solution would still be to give Feds the one major Starfleet thing that is still missing from STO. Shuttles.
I've posted a suggestion here: http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=3091675&postcount=8
See, I learned something new today.
What roles will shuttles play and how many could one SF vessel deploy?
Technically that is soft-canon and it is unknown how Klingons gained warp. If we use Soft-canon like the star charts, the Klingons actually had a space empire (10th century) before the Hur'q arrived in the 14th century. So there is some dispute as to where it came from.
I also have to disagree with the suggestions that Viking were not technologically advanced. Their ships (which they developed independently of other cultures) were by far the most advanced for their time and enabled them to travel to places no others could (by sea) at the time. Recent studies have shown that Viking swords were usually better quality steel than those of other Europeans, this has been attributed to what can be discerned about their forging techniques. However, I have always believed that the Klingons share a great deal with the Vikings, and so I see their approach to the sciences as similar (despite there being no "sciences" in Viking times). The Klingons are a practical people to them (as a people) science is a tool like a disruptor or a bat'leth meant to make their goals more achievable.
After all, the shuttles would work in addition to what every SF ship already has. It's more like a little gimmick, not a major feature to rely on.
I like the explanation because it makes sense, for that Qo'noS was conquered by the Hur'q is hard canon (meaning they evidently didn't have the technology to successfully defend themselves), just as the impression that Klingons do not really appear to be "civilized enough" for a spacefaring species.
As for these star charts, do you have a link? I have never heard of a contradiction regarding this so far.
Well, yeah, but they didn't fly into space, did they. :P
Klingons were also excellent warriors, and I reckon they were very skilled in forging as well - just look at the Sword of Kahless.
What I mean is that they were a medieval culture when the Hur'q arrived. The Hur'q enslaved the Klingons and forced them to work, but at some time the Klingons managed to break their chains and successfully rebelled against their invaders, forcing them to flee the planet. In the process, they captured some of their ships, which catapulted their society into post-warp overnight, completely skipping a thousand years of cultural development and enabling "the old ways" to prevail. See also the soft canon information on Ch'gran.
Sorry but I already had one way before STO started. http://www.stogeek.com/wiki/USS_Worker_Bee.
I always prefer to see the limitations set forth by the canon as potential, not an enemy. After all, the setting is the basis on which every character interacts with each other, no? It's always sad to see some people rendering their RP "incompatible" to others.
Actually the Vikings were highly techno savy and such skills were responsible for alot of european societal advancements that we take for granted today.
I posses a wonderful book on sword making during that age- quite enlightening.
Persoanlly I think the massive qauntities of beer and mead they drank was a big factor in thier extensive sea traveling as well.
I have no offense over the canon of it, but becareful in defining "civilized enough" when describing other races. Alot of the World's mistakes have been made under the guise of defining what makes one "civilized".
I could have also said technologically advanced, but considering that we're argueing from a human point of view and Klingon culture is rather medieval-themed, I thought that this wording would emphasize it more than restricting it merely on scientific progress. One does influence the other, after all. Again: see how Klingon scientists are treated.
I'm rambling more than anything so no offense taken or meant.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Klingon_history
Its up for debate, I'm not opposed to the Hur'q idea, but I do not like the fact that it makes it seem the Klingons are without the abilities to discover warp on their own. Seeking adventure is one of the reasons the Vikings started exploring beyond their own lands and islands and they eventually ended up in North America and the Middle East, journeys that no other culture could have possibly made at the same time.
I have an article pending publication that suggests that the Vikings were proto-capitalists. There is a plethora of evidence that they would sail into towns and decide to either raid them or trade with them depending well guarded the town appeared to be.
Kind of as if, somehow, the Vikings would have managed to get their hands on a modern tank. Humans obviously had the ability to invent it ... just a thousand years later.
Thanks for the link, by the way. Though I have to say that I really don't see how the Klingons were supposed to colonize the stars when they were still recording their lore on paper scrolls. And obviously Molor could have just shot Kahless with a laser gun instead of all the swordplay if they had the technology. Not to mention the sillyness of besieging a city with 10.000 warriors only to burn it to the ground and kill the entire population when they could have just nuked it from orbit... It just doesn't fit to what else we know of the early Klingon history.
In truth I have a klingon toon but to tell the truth I have not played him well since making LC on him. Reason not enough content for me. DO not get me wrong love PVP do it all the time on my FED but there is only so much PVP that I can take lol.
Now as for the issue with FEDs having carriers? Please and I mean please this is a no go. I honestly have to side with the Red on this. You have given the FED enormous amount of stuff and content. Boys time to put down the combadge and take up the Bat'Leth!
Work on the Klingons for a while!
Death by Glorious Battle!
I am sorry if it appeared I was suggesting it was your opinion that the Klingons are incapable of producing warp technology. My concern is more that especially here in STO we will see those with agendas to close/kill off the KDF faction use things like the Hur'q as excuses to not further develop Klingon content (specifically science or crafting avenues).
While I see your points about what might appear to be anachronistic juxtapositions of technology, I fear that is a teleological argument. While it seems logical that certain developments follow a certain order, keep in mind that until recently we thought that things like steam power and electricity were very modern inventions. While I too find it hard to believe a society could invent warp technology before eliminating scrolls, but "there are more things in Heaven and Earth" than I can possibly explain.
The Bajorans had spacetravel long befor the Cardassians yet they were defeated, although one might argue it was in part due to the Bajoran mindset, I'D say the Cardassians has simply "outteched" them.
Assuming the Klingons had warp by the they were conquered as is indicated by several sources it would only mean the Hur'q were technologically far more advanced than the Klingons.
There is also the fact that Kahless pointed to a dinstant point of light and the Klingons actually got there, which would indicate they cetainly had an understanding of astronomy and interstllar navigation therwise it would have been impossible for them to properly record which star Kahless was pointing a and actually get there, unless on thinks this is just a dumb legend.
"The origins of the Klingon Empire began in around 854 AD, the so-called "Heroic Age of Qo'noS", when Kahless the Unforgettable united the many warring tribes of Qo'noS. Under Kahless's leadership, the Klingons began to expand their empire across the planet and out into the galaxy following the development of warp drive in 922 AD. (TNG episode: "Rightful Heir"; TNG novel: Kahless; ST reference: Star Charts) However, the First Klingon Empire fell in around 972 AD after the Hur'q, a race from the Gamma Quadrant, invaded Qo'noS and pillaged many of the Empires treasures, including the Sword of Kahless."
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Klingon_history
It is quite possible that after the Hur'q left Qo'nos the Klingons made a hughe leap forward technologically and it is certainly possible they would have been less advanced in let's say the 22nd century if they had not encountered the Hur'q but I think they would have been around then too.
Maybe not with disruptors but something more like Andorian particle weapons maybe with their entirely domestic developed disruptor, maybe with plasma weapons, who know.
But I would count on them going out to the stars even without the Hur'q just to see what's there and whom to beat up.
Well, considering that this "fact" was passed on from generation to generation on a piece of parchment...
But even if the part of Kahless pointing to the stars would actually be true, nothing indicates he really got there. The way of his departure is not described, he simply vanished. It is well known that Kahless was not only a warrior and a leader but also a philosopher - his statement, "look for me there", could have been meant metaphorically. Kahless, the Ascendant, who will watch his people from the stars for eternity ... rather than Kahless the Traveller, who simply moved his physical body off-planet.
If you read my earlier statements, I agree with the sentiment of Federation ships need to be both a form of exploration or patrol ship and combat capable. There are many things out there in the universe, and one thing forty years of trek has taught us is that it isn't a friendly place. How many wars have broken out since the Time of TNG? How many enemies are their gunning for the federation? While it would be true to say that federation doesn't make pure combat vessels, that does not mean that their ships are not up to combat standards, otherwise the enemies of the federation would have over whelmed them by now.
As for peaceful exploration. Yes, they are peaceful explorers. In that they walk around extending a hand of friendship and help to all who are in need of it. But a peaceful society would be ignorant and eventually self destructive if they also didn't realize that they need a real military power, not to conquer, but to repel efforts of the conquerors. So if you are trying to connect peaceful exploration with lack of warships, then that is a very circular argument, as neither is exclusive of each other. Watch the episode in TOS where we have Kirk trying to convince this one planet on the Neutral zone to side with them instead of the Klingons. Funnily enough, those inhabitants were better able to defend them selves then people thought, but more importantly, they went as far as comparing the Federation to being just as bad as the Klingons, hinting at both sides wanting a war, and willing to fight it. hmm hardly the peace loving federation every one loves to bring up.
Federation conquers people with diplomacy and peaceful co-existence, while the Klingons and a few other races would just conquer with just force of arms.
Now, I will admit, I should have clarified the scientist notion, as all races would need research to advance. Klingon scientist have been shown but at the same time they have also been shown to be second class to the warrior class and also only research means to empower the warrior class in its efforts. While federation scientist are equal if not more important to Star fleet and also expand the knowledge of the Federation for a sake of knowledge. We also see a discrepancy when it comes to the two sides use of science. Klingons scientist might examine spacial phenomena, but mostly to see if it can be used to further benefit their combat effectiveness, or interfere with their advance, and most Klingon vessels don't have science facilities on their vessel, as most vessels are designed for war. Federation always carry scientist, as they are off exploring even when they on other tasks. They can think fast with unique ides like using the deflector to give them an advantage. Deflector pulse, tachyon inversions, and a plethora of other ways to use deflectors really show case how important science is to the federation. Now I should have sated more clearly, that both sides should not have the same powers for science officers, as the truth is federation scientist are more capable in regards of spacial phenomena and other bizarre implementations of their knowledge, while Klingons are almost always geared to war, and research.
So why would the feds need a carrier? they don't. short, simple and what my sentiment has been about. What I do support is a class dependent on pets for their main function. I like the idea of a "drone frigate" as they would eventually realize that small support vessels can change the flow of battle, especially after watching the Klingons put it to good use against them (they can also field drones to give them better ways to explore more dangerous phenomena, like field drones to improve their shielding from hazardous radiation). Would they have fighters, probably not, as they value their lives more than Klingons do, but they would field computer control vessels that could deal with fighter attacks, or project defensive shields around them, or lay down a zone of control through some spacial anomaly they generate.
as I said before, I am not pro-federation, anti-Klingon; despite what many of you believe. I just support both sides equally. I would love to see more content come out for the Klingons, but I also don't agree with the notion of stopping production on the feds just to focus on the Klingons solely, just to give them there needed content. Why? becasue when they do decide that the Klingons are "Finished (Or up to snuff)" to make a new faction, I would still love to see content come out for the Klingons as well as the federation, as every side needs more content, especially at end game, instead of content only coming out for the Romulans, or Cardasians, leaving the other factions stagnant for content all the while.
So i do not support the feds getting an exact copy of the Klingon carrier, but I do believe they need a pet class which can summon unique pets that the federation can field. And I don't think shuttles are insufficient, nor the answer by giving all federation ship an extra ability that the Klingons can't use. While canon, it would divide the already big chasm between the sides, where as a new ship type, based on the forth class would be able to balance out, and also fill in a missing play style.
And no, the federation doesn't need a scout ship. Keep your kia of preys. That was never what was asked for, nor is it really Federation. Federation has specialized vessels, Klingons tend to have ships that are fielded to fulfill a multitude of roles.
Well, some did, and now there's the Cloaked Defiant. Granted, no Battle Cloak, but she retains her stronger hull "to compensate". The way I see it, fighter combat is just one more point on the long list of unique KDF features that people want copied to Fed-side. The Cloak, Bat'leths and universal BO slots have already moved over.
I just want the factions to be more distinctive.
And perhaps with enough whining we will see yet another KDF only feature go the way of the dodo...Perhaps if we had a targ poo chucking mini-game they would want it too???? Perhaps if we had another sector block (like was mentioned below by Varrigan)...they'd want that too...figures...
Hmmm. I know of a way to make both sides feel more distinctive, Of course it would require a lot of work. One thing that hinders this is that fact that both factions have the exact same abilities. While some would be universally used, many other could be changed to have more distinctive flavor. Like ground science officers could summon targs, and Tactical could focus more on melee weapon combat, instead of stealth tactics.
Technology is just one of those weird things were looks make it more distinctive than actual tech is, after all technology is a universal thing and eventually if a culture stays in contact with another culture technology will start to blend. One thing that will never change is that Klingon ships will be more maneuverable and able to mount cannons, while Federation will always be tougher. Other then that, Looks and culture is where any real distinctiveness is going to come into play.
well, fed ships are not always tougher...mayber tougher to manuver...but it's all in your spec. Anyway, the differences between every faction need to be kept and respected...I have no doubt that when roms make into game that the feds will want 50% of the rom unique tech or whatnot...because it's already happened to us in KDF land...and with giving feds yet another ship class and yet more ships, you take away what it is to be on the KDF side...If people want to fly a carrier, then create a KDF toon, level him/her (I did mine fast), and go fly one...sheesh.
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Well yes, make perfect sense. Those may have been heavily drunken hardening seafairing anglo saxonish germanic norse heritaged people, but they were not stupid by any definition of the term. What or whom you can not conquer outright you barter with until you can. Good Luck on the article. Send me a link to it if you can.
I could not say it better myself.... so I'm making it my signature.
Unless you mind.
Nah, I don't mind. As I was wondering in a forum up in fed land wy I was being quoted...lol. I suppose I have found out why...keep the sig it looks good on ye'.
I agree. I can't wait to play a Romulan. I might consider a Cardassian, but more then likely will pass on them becasue I haven't had much exposure to them, and thus they hold little interest to me. I also look forward to the arguments in the future.
Would be interesting to see if the Romulans would get a few of the Klingons ships, as it is in cannon, or would cryptic make an all Romulan fleet from tier 1 to tier 5. I would love to see the B'rel on the Romulan side as well as those old moth ball D7s.
Some Klingons demanded no FvF ("it will be the end of the Klingon faction")... The Feds got FvF.
Some Klingons demanded no Fed Cloak ("it is the ONLY thing that makes us unique")... The Feds got Cloak.
Some Klingons demanded no Fed Universal BO slots ("it is the ONLY thing that makes us unique.. again")... The Nebula has a LT Universal BO slot.
Now this Klingon thread which demands that Feds not get carriers... So you know what that tells me.
It's all the Klingon's fault?;)
HMM, if they had that incredible power they should make a thread called
"no boring missions without rewards for Feds!" and scream in it long and loug enough until
Cryptic adds an entire campaign of mission to the Feds that are painfully boring and have no rewards.:D
As for Fed Carriers and unique features, ill trade the KDF unique carrier for the Fed unique PvE mission chains, not all of us want to PvP to be a Klingon, im tired of being a Fed but I cant spend more than an hour playing the klingon doing explore missions and waiting in 30 minute pvp queues,
yeah Im a carebear, so what? I am not a fan of PvP, shouldn't have to be to play an MMO that isnt centered around it.