The reason that example makes absolutely no sense is because the C-store only sells different VERSIONS of what you ALREADY have in game. So if we were talking about player housing in relation to the C-store, then all it would mean is that you might be able to buy a different TYPE of house than the one you ALREADY have in game.
Thats assuming that what we have in game is what is available in the C-store which it is not. Our T3 Excel does not have the same or comparible capabilities as the one you purchase.. thats the beef.. if you disagree, lets do a private PVP.. I'll bring the T3 version, you bring the T5 (because I don't want to pay for it) and lets see how capable it is.
Why should the subscriber have to pay for a MORE powerful version with more capabilities. It should not be in the C-Store.. it should be unlocked in gameplay such as a reward for an Elite level STF.
and we don't have different versions of stuff in the C-Store..
as someone gave you a list already a few messages back.
Thats assuming that what we have in game is what is available in the C-store which it is not. Our T3 Excel does not have the same or comparible capabilities as the one you purchase.. thats the beef.. if you disagree, lets do a private PVP.. I'll bring the T3 version, you bring the T5 (because I don't want to pay for it) and lets see how capable it is.
Why should the subscriber have to pay for a MORE powerful version with more capabilities. It should not be in the C-Store.. it should be unlocked in gameplay such as a reward for an Elite level STF.
and we don't have different versions of stuff in the C-Store..
as someone gave you a list already a few messages back.
You just dont get it. I'm not saying the T3 excelsior is = to the T5 excelsior. However, the T5 excelsior that you buy IS equal to the T5 ships in game you DONT have to buy. So if you simply want an excelsior class, you can get one in game for "free". If you want a T5 ship, you can get one in game for "free". However, if you want a T5 excelsior you have to pay for it. But you can ALREADY get an excelsior or a T5 ship in game without paying if you dont want to.
You just dont get it. I'm not saying the T3 excelsior is = to the T5 excelsior. However, the T5 excelsior that you buy IS equal to the T5 ships in game you DONT have to buy. So if you simply want an excelsior class, you can get one in game for "free". If you want a T5 ship, you can get one in game for "free". However, if you want a T5 excelsior you have to pay for it. But you can ALREADY get an excelsior or a T5 ship in game without paying if you dont want to.
It isn't equal.. you aren't getting what I'm saying.......
here is an easy question for you to answer in a single word only " Name another T5 ship with transwarp skill or the BO slots allocated to the T5 Excelsior" and the diplomatic missions don't count as they are not based on the ship's skill.. or even better the Nebula's AWAC ability.
The answer is "NONE"
There you go.
C-Store does not equal what is available in game. IF they added a T5 ship that was free with transwarp capabitilies then your point would be correct and I would stand corrected and admit you are right.
You just dont get it. I'm not saying the T3 excelsior is = to the T5 excelsior. However, the T5 excelsior that you buy IS equal to the T5 ships in game you DONT have to buy. So if you simply want an excelsior class, you can get one in game for "free". If you want a T5 ship, you can get one in game for "free". However, if you want a T5 excelsior you have to pay for it. But you can ALREADY get an excelsior or a T5 ship in game without paying if you dont want to.
The T5 Excelsior is NOT comparable to any other T5 ship in the game. Either you haven't actually read anything about it, or you are ignoring inconvenient facts while raising the damcon alarm.
The point, and I think you're intentionally missing it in your bid to defend Cryptic, is that regardless of how much you try to say to the contrary, here are the facts:
Items that are only obtainable in the C-Store, and are not just like any counterpart in the game because of their special traits/abilities:
T1 Constitution (barring those of us that got it as a pre-order)
T5 Excelsior
Galaxy-X
Federation Liberated Borg Bridge Officer
Klingon Liberated Borg Bridge Officer
Playable Caitian
Playable Federation Klingon
Playable Ferengi
Playable Joined Trill
Playable Pakled
Playable Rigellian
Playable Tellarite
Each of these items comes with one or more special traits and/or abilities that can have an impact on gameplay, however slight.
Since they are not available in-game, it means that unless you are willing to spend money beyond your subscription, you can't have them.
Yes, it is entirely a decision of whether or not to buy them, but no matter how you slice it, putting items with unique abilities in the C-Store without making them available in the game is a money grab. Plain, simple. If it wasn't, there'd be a way to get them in-game.
And if you're not willing to admit that, at least admit to either not actually knowing the differences, or fanboi defense trolling, and move on. One of the two.
I would frankly like to see every single player boycott the C-Store entirely. It'd send one heck of a message. Of course, that won't happen.
Look... as heinous a concept the C-Store is (and I've said I don't like it)... the marginal advantage bequeathed by any of the sold items is transitory and fleeting... and, truthfully, only relevant (if at all) in PvP play.
Even in PvP, capability, class-knowledge and dexterity count for more than what the T5 Excelsior comes with, surely. That ship is only contentious as it's an 'end-game' ship... currently... all arguments will be moot once we progress above it.
I don't understand why there's such a hullabaloo about it tbh... considering that there's more advantage gained from one of the playable races - where the stats give an edge whether Ensign or Vice Admiral... but again, only in ground-based PvP.
Look... as heinous a concept the C-Store is (and I've said I don't like it)... the marginal advantage bequeathed by any of the sold items is transitory and fleeting... and, truthfully, only relevant (if at all) in PvP play.
Even in PvP, capability, class-knowledge and dexterity count for more than what the T5 Excelsior comes with, surely. That ship is only contentious as it's an 'end-game' ship... currently... all arguments will be moot once we progress above it.
I don't understand why there's such a hullabaloo about it tbh... considering that there's more advantage gained from one of the playable races - where the stats give an edge whether Ensign or Vice Admiral... but again, only in ground-based PvP.
None of it hardly game-breaking.
I never said it was game-breaking. In fact, I actually said "...however slight."
The point is that these are differences, regardless of the amount of impact, that are not available at all in-game. It's deplorable.
It isn't equal.. you aren't getting what I'm saying.......
here is an easy question for you to answer in a single word only " Name another T5 ship with transwarp skill or the BO slots allocated to the T5 Excelsior" and the diplomatic missions don't count as they are not based on the ship's skill.. or even better the Nebula's AWAC ability.
The answer is "NONE"
There you go.
C-Store does not equal what is available in game. IF they added a T5 ship that was free with transwarp capabitilies then your point would be correct and I would stand corrected and admit you are right.
I get what your saying. So buy it or don't...your choice. Same as a subscription or the game itself, if you want it pay the price. If it's not worth it to you, don't.
Unfortunately, you've also figured out that it's your choice to whine over nonsense so continue as you were. :rolleyes:
I get what your saying. So buy it or don't...your choice. Same as a subscription or the game itself, if you want it pay the price. If it's not worth it to you, don't.
Unfortunately, you've also figured out that it's your choice to whine over nonsense so continue as you were. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE
I really enjoy the "IF YOU DON"T LIKE IT DONT BUY IT" argument.. how does that stand up? I betaed the game, liked it, bought the lifer membership to show my support based on what Cryptic told us and now 6 months later.. I have a right to complain because what we were told and what we were given were two different things..
I wish I could just bury my head in the sand like you and pretend all is well in STO world..
PS- your whole IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T BUY IT argument has worked well for STO.. the sub numbers have never been higher and the reviews are just glorious.. :rolleyes:
BluYak.
I completely agree with your OP.
I have turned away all my friends and family from this game as the "double pay" features in this game bother me a lot.
I would really like to see a sense of achievement from STO.. give me something that shows I worked hard in this game not opened my wallet and bought it.
The biggest turn off, I believe, for a new comer to this game is loading it up for the first time and seeing over 200 dollars worth of items in the C-Store... ridiculous.
the only thing the C-Store should sell is account features, respecs, and the occasional cosmetic item.
My girlfriend and I have been playing for 3 weeks now and our subs have already been canceled. Simple reasons, really and the c-store mentality is a major reason why we did so.
We were enjoyiing the game for what it is. We had initially passed on STO after hearing some of the horror stories, but siince we've played MMOs together for the years we have we figured, "Oh hell why not?! The game's just 20 bucks now let's give it a try! People always exaggerate about things on the forums of any game."
Sad to say that the majority of the complaints were valid and true.
Things like:
Being limited to 2 characters (3 once you unlock an accolade) and having to pay for more..
EMOTES for sale?!
Overpriced ships for sale (15-25 bucks for SINGLE SHIPS?!)
Not being able to group together for some of the content (like exploration missions)
Extreme repetiveness to gameplay/mission types.
Just things like that just makes the game not too enjoyable for us as a couple of potential long term subbers. Neither one of us have an issue with an item store, per se IF DONE RIGHT.
Respecs, renames, fluff clothing items, ship skins? Sure why not. Playable races, extra character slots (when so vastly limited as is to begin with), 'game changing' items? Not so much. Especially in a game where we see how unfinished it is and the problems it has which hinders our game play.
On top of that when we have seen very little progress on the bugs that keep hitting us and see more items introduced to the c-store and the talk/plans of the next overpriced item coming to it . . . well, it just turns us off to the game even more. Gives the *impression* that their priorities are off.
The way we see it why continue to give these guys our money each month? There are several MMOs on the market (and looking at our game shelf I think we own 90% of them lol) that we can subscribe to (for the same sub price this game charges) and experience a lot more content and gameplay all WITHOUT having to spend extra money!
Yeah, yeah the c store stuff is optional and what not, but it's not the point. It might be for now, but I wouldn't be surprised if I read somwhere a few months down the road that items are being added that give a distinct edge in gameplay and everything is per character transaction, either.
Yeah, I know . . ."STFU N00BS" and "Don't let the door hit you guys on your asses on the way out!" and "Good! If you don't like it then leave!" applies, but whatever. You can keep telling people who have issues with the game that and the hand few of you can enjoy being milked for all you're worth till the game bleeds to death.
In regards to the OP i have to say whenever i mention STO to my fellow players in Lotro i hear things like:
OMG !
You´re STILL playing that ?!
I tried it in open beta, does space still look like a 4-year old ran amok with his crayons ?
Suffice it to say, i barely mention the game to them anymore.
What do i say when someone asks about it being worth to play ? I usually try to be honest and tell them to wait until i can tell them it has gotten better (which it has since launch, no doubt) to a point where it should have been at launch (which it isn´t right now).
I never said it was game-breaking. In fact, I actually said "...however slight."
The point is that these are differences, regardless of the amount of impact, that are not available at all in-game. It's deplorable.
Wasn't referring to anyone in particular
Yeah... there are slight differences... but the negligible, fleeting impact of them - in only one aspect of the game - should allow for some perspective. There are far more things that might merit the use of the word 'deplorable.' - and certainly stuff more game-breaking
For me, it's not an issue of minuscule PvP advantage... I couldn't give a monkey's if someone has a Tac III skill slotted rather than a II for the loss of 'some' Eng functionality and ablehealrate - in fact, if PvP lifts your skirts, such an opponent might even be seen as more of a challenge, perhaps, rather than cause for tears and calling foul... stores simply should not exist AT ALL in a pay-for-game-then-subscribe game. Capitalism! Spit!
I think in the end, STO is a great example of that its more important to make a buck than it is to sell a good product (see Wal-Mart). After the Beta, I defended the game frequently, citing the standard 'WoW wasn't built in a day' and 'even AoC became playable,' but after they repeated the mistake of publishing unplayable content for season 2 and are still not close to understanding the bugs in the star clusters... I've had to give up. Its been 4 weeks since I've been able to log in and play for more than an hour without a game ending bug, and Cryptic won't respond to me with anything other than 'we are aware and working diligently to fix this bug.' think about it: As small as the player base is, there have been nigh 1,000,000 bug tickets submitted in 200ish days. How about putting an option in the C-Store to go back to the season 1.2 build? I'd buy that just so i could play the game for a little bit. I think that unfortunately, instead of this being a game that makes new trekkies, it is just a game of diehards refusing to get off their dead horse. I truly wish i had never bought that lifetime sub.
On the one hand I find it amusing that the lifers are now repeating vociferously what the non-lifers have been saying all long.
On the other hand, with the game being under new management, as it were, the potential for greatness is much higher now. STO had been misled for a long time - there is more to making a good game than just the IP attached, apparently Cryptic had been unaware of Atari's 1980s ET fiasco...but, I digress.
A single game rarely can appeal to every player equally nor can it make every player happy. A good game tends to have good elements that overshadow its bad elements. A bad game generally offends every type of player equally - and this is what STO achieved in its early days...leaving a sour taste in the mouth of all those who ate of it in Beta, Headstart and Release.
STO is better now than it was...I don't believe it is worth a monthly fee, still, nor do I believe it was ever worth the lifetime subscription fee...however, I think it is progressing to a point where it WILL be worth spending money in the C-store for game enjoyment as well as recommending the playing of it to others.
I really enjoy the "IF YOU DON"T LIKE IT DONT BUY IT" argument.. how does that stand up? I betaed the game, liked it, bought the lifer membership to show my support based on what Cryptic told us and now 6 months later.. I have a right to complain because what we were told and what we were given were two different things..
I wish I could just bury my head in the sand like you and pretend all is well in STO world..
PS- your whole IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T BUY IT argument has worked well for STO.. the sub numbers have never been higher and the reviews are just glorious.. :rolleyes:
Like me, I figured you bought a lifetime because there was nothing else STO "needed" for you to want to be able to play for a long time. If not,
Now some would have us believe that there is a ship or something else in the c-store that affects this. I don't think so because everything there is "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T BUY IT".
All is well in my STO world. I bought and lifetime subscribed to one thing. And to my pleasure, it has gotten even better with time. Too few purchases that applies to these days.
Overpriced ships for sale (15-25 bucks for SINGLE SHIPS?!)
Imagine how much a new faction is going to be:
5 tiers of ships with 3 ships each;
New bridge officer races;
New captain races;
New sectors.
If the refits are any indication, the Romulan faction will be at least $300, and it's a coin-toss whether they'll get a Warbird-with-cloak as part of that, or if the quite popular Romulan ship will cost extra.
Age of Conan suffered from going from 800k box sales to under 100k subs from having a crappy start.. but they pulled themselves together with no microtransactions and is now heralded as a very good MMO.
This is true. The turn around stated with the replacement of the EP; which we recently had here. Additionally, Funcom paid close attention to the community's issues and corrected as many as possible as quickly as possible and really started to interact and provide lots of communication about things.
Sadly enough FunCom still does not sell any LtS but I'm prepaid until 2013 so I guess it does not matter. :cool:
The real turn around happened with the RotGs x-pack. It was solid all the way around and a LOT of people came back after the unanimous community and critical review feedback. Consequently what I'm driving at here is that there still is hope for STO provided that developer leadership and the active community are operating from the same agenda.
The take away message is simple, take care of the active players and they will be your marketing machine. This is also the principle idea in the OP - yes?
<music in the background>..."Transformers!.... C-store threads in disguise!"
Okay, so when i started reading your thread I thought I was going to read some great insight into why you can't convince your friends about the value in this game. Such as its many faults that this game, as an MMO has, just like many other MMOs.
But it was a cleverly disguised C-store thread! Congrats!
Okay, so we have all heard this argument before and before its shoveled off into the C-store forum, please recognize that this is is all debatable from each side of the house. Items in the C-store can be viewed as "game changing" or not by opinion. It can be viewed as "unique" or not by opinion. And it can be viewed as "needed" or not by opinion. This opinion will rage on forever, as the model of MMO business changes.
Two things to keep in mind:
MMOs, like any other games are a BUSINESS. Do not fool yourselves into thinking otherwise. They are here to make money and profit at YOUR expense. As long as you enjoy yourself paying for the game, that is a good thing. if you are not enjoying yourself, stop paying and playing (and posting here LOL). This is the BEST way to affect the business model at this point.
C-Store: It's not going away no matter how much we whine and complain about it. In fact, they are not likely at all to change their current practices of putting the kinds of items into it. It's part of their financial model to keep STO rockin' and so by getting rid of the C-Store you are effectively getting rid of the game itself. They don't have enough subs alone to make this game successful and profitable (see my first point) without it.
C-Store: It's not going away no matter how much we whine and complain about it. In fact, they are not likely at all to change their current practices of putting the kinds of items into it. It's part of their financial model to keep STO rockin' and so by getting rid of the C-Store you are effectively getting rid of the game itself. They don't have enough subs alone to make this game successful and profitable (see my first point) without it.
While I dont necessarily disagree with your prior assertions, the part I underlined is patently wrong.
It would be interesting to know exact numbers as to subs and I would be willing to bet a sizable about of people bailed because they could not get the ships and other stuff in game so that inherently cost Cryptic money. The question is really boils down to how much revenue enchantments can the player base deal with while still paying a monthly fee for what principally amounts to access, occasional bug fixes and some small mission additions - at least up to this date.
It is as I have stated before, if they make a clear way for people to get all the stuff in the store in game - as we were promised prior to launch then I would also be willing to bet the vast majority of complaints about the store will simply vanish.
It is not like Cryptic is pointing a gun towards your head and forcing you to buy from the C-store. There are three types of things on the C-store, services, cosmetics, and ingame items.
1. Services - there is no MMO that I know of that gives these away for free. The retrain token is available through other means ingame, but the account wide services are not available ingame.
2. Cosmetics - emotes, costumes, and skins fall under this. They already provide other ways to get similar items.
3. Ingame items - there are currently two different types of ingame items, preorder/special edition and ships. The only exclusive ship that we have to buy through the C-store is the T5 Excelsior. Galaxy X and the T5.5 refits (Defiant,Galaxy, Intrepid) are currently available through other means, but the Galaxy X's other mean takes actual work. Most MMOs doesn't allow people to purchase specific preorder/special edition items. In City of Heroes, their preorder items were added as vet rewards.
Each of the ingame items has the option to earn an ingame item for free or use the lazy way to purchase it with real money. I don't need to waste money on a costume pack, emote pack, or ship skin, but I can. As far as the Excelsior, it doesn't change the gameplay anymore than any other ship with a unique ability does. It is not like piloting an Excelsior will make you near invincible and able to destroy ships with just one simple attack.
If the C-store can continue to let us have free Seasons and not have to worry about stuff like Going Rogue, Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, and Cataclysm, then it is a small price to pay for most except for those that have to buy everything. DLCs and paid expansions seem to be prevalent in most game companies. If we see missions, features, and STFs on the C-store, then be worried. Otherwise, just laugh behind people's backs that they paid $15 to $25 for a lousy ship.
While I dont necessarily disagree with your prior assertions, the part I underlined is patently wrong.
Actually neither you or I can say for sure if getting rid of the C-store would make the game go away. I think getting rid of the c-store will make the game "less" profitable for sure, so I don't think they will get rid of it. I think Cryptic would be much more willing to axe the game if STO didn't have a C-store and hence the extra income. Again, none of this we will ever know for sure.
It is as I have stated before, if they make a clear way for people to get all the stuff in the store in game - as we were promised prior to launch then I would also be willing to bet the vast majority of complaints about the store will simply vanish.
I also agree on this point here. You can see my previous threads on both ways to earn more Emblems and as well as posts about making C-store items "Purchaseable" with Emblems. I think the solution to the C-store rants is the End game grind for Emblems actually.
While I dont necessarily disagree with your prior assertions, the part I underlined is patently wrong.
.
True, the game won't vanish without a C-store, but it is a way for Cryptic to pay for maintenance fees, more devs, more GMs, and more technology to create free content for us. Putting up with buying useless items allows more free useless items. According to the City of Hero devs, the sales of the first microtransaction item allowed them to release a new character class that players of City of Villains have being waiting for months. Without the microtransaction, it wouldn't have been released or it would have taken years for it to become available. It would be interesting to get a dev response to show what features were released early or at all because of the C-store.
I also agree on this point here. You can see my previous threads on both ways to earn more Emblems and as well as posts about making C-store items "Purchaseable" with Emblems. I think the solution to the C-store rants is the End game grind for Emblems actually.
This is all anybody who is angry about the C-Store in general, and the Excelsior in particular, is requesting.
Well, for the VA token as well. Just like the other refits.
For me, the Excelsior is the only T5 ship that I find even tolerable design-wise. But I'm not paying $20 for it. No virtual item is worth more than maybe $10, and I probably would only really consider it around $5.
So they tried to milk me and instead I ended up canceling my subscription, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. Except for the diehard trekkies, everybody will reach their limit. Will it be the Nebula? Will it be the T'Pol jumpsuit? I kind of doubt it will be the TMP uniforms. It'll vary for everybody, but eventually Cryptic will alienate most, if not all, of their potential long-term customers for short-term gain.
The question for them then is, are diehard Trekkies going to be enough not just to sustain the game, but make it worth Cryptic's while? I suspect not.
This is all anybody who is angry about the C-Store in general, and the Excelsior in particular, is requesting.
Well, for the VA token as well. Just like the other refits.
For me, the Excelsior is the only T5 ship that I find even tolerable design-wise. But I'm not paying $20 for it. No virtual item is worth more than maybe $10, and I probably would only really consider it around $5.
So they tried to milk me and instead I ended up canceling my subscription, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. Except for the diehard trekkies, everybody will reach their limit. Will it be the Nebula? Will it be the T'Pol jumpsuit? I kind of doubt it will be the TMP uniforms. It'll vary for everybody, but eventually Cryptic will alienate most, if not all, of their potential long-term customers for short-term gain.
The question for them then is, are diehard Trekkies going to be enough not just to sustain the game, but make it worth Cryptic's while? I suspect not.
Sad to hear you've cancelled your sub over the Excelsior issue... truly.
With respect, could I suggest a shift in viewpoint? Rather than think how much the Excelsior costs, total up all the money you spend - including the cost of the Excelsior - and calculate if the cost is worth the time played and/or time you will play in comparison to how much you'd spend on other games? And do the same bit of math for whatever extra C-Store item pops up in the future?
TBH, I think the vast bulk of MMOs are good value for money when viewed like that - and this one, too... even with the Excelsior outlay.
Personally, I've found that spending that dosh on the Excelsior - despite much rather not having to (no surprise there) - has added to my own sense of game fun and enjoyment... and that is, ultimately, why I'm here.
With respect, could I suggest a shift in viewpoint? Rather than think how much the Excelsior costs, total up all the money you spend - including the cost of the Excelsior - and calculate if the cost is worth the time played and/or time you will play in comparison to how much you'd spend on other games? And do the same bit of math for whatever extra C-Store item pops up in the future?
That's already how I looked at it. Not only is the Excelsior not worth $20, but since the plan is apparently to charge extra for significant content on top of the monthly subscription fee, that means I'm not getting my money's worth out of my $15 a month, either.
That's already how I looked at it. Not only is the Excelsior not worth $20, but since the plan is apparently to charge extra for significant content on top of the monthly subscription fee, that means I'm not getting my money's worth out of my $15 a month, either.
But surely you're still looking at a single ship as an individual cost, rather than spreading the total cost out more. Not saying you're wrong to do so... but for me, if I had that view, what the hell am I doing paying hard-earned real-life cash to play with transient pixels when a good Thai massage would be cheaper and, if I'm lucky, more... thrilling?
It's easy to devalue something, with the right mindset. Perhaps you're just not enjoying the game enough?
As for charging for significant content atop the subscription - all of the sub'd MMOs I've played have charged for expansions - it's the norm.
As for charging for significant content atop the subscription - all of the sub'd MMOs I've played have charged for expansions - it's the norm.
It's one ship.
ONE. SHIP.
And it costs half as much as an expansion to WoW, which includes new races and/or classes, new zones, new gear, new quests, new dungeons, new mounts, new abilities, new crafting professions...
I'd consider paying $20 for a real expansion, like, say, the addition of a Romulan faction. As long as it has fleshed out PvE, with new Romulan specific sectors, new Romulan ships and races and the like. (But not if the Warbird with cloaking device costs extra.)
The Excelsior isn't an expansion. It's new gear. Most games put out new gear without charging beyond the subscription fee, and they don't go bankrupt. I know WoW has put in new zones and dungeons and endgame armor sets without charging an extra dime; so has LotRO. So has most every other MMO out there.
I was just looking at the store for LotRO and the prices there are by far more reasonable than Cryptic's, and that's without charging a monthly subscription fee. And that's even taking into account the fact that I'm ****ed at Turbine for trying to sell me the same game twice.
I always find it amusing when people like you post frivolous nonsense like this about post counts to up their own riculous post counts. I am not sure this post was aimed at you nor should it concern a myopic gamer such as yourself.
I actually think that was funny...It's better than everyone always complaining.
It isn't equal.. you aren't getting what I'm saying.......
here is an easy question for you to answer in a single word only " Name another T5 ship with transwarp skill or the BO slots allocated to the T5 Excelsior" and the diplomatic missions don't count as they are not based on the ship's skill.. or even better the Nebula's AWAC ability.
The answer is "NONE"
There you go.
C-Store does not equal what is available in game. IF they added a T5 ship that was free with transwarp capabitilies then your point would be correct and I would stand corrected and admit you are right.
I can see the Grand Nagus's point.
"Name another T5 ship with X..."
The free T5 ships in the game don't have comparable features either. The Intrepid has ablative generator, the Defiant has cloak and the Galaxy has saucer sep. The Transwarp drive is just the Excelsior T5's special thing. The Nebula's sensor net is it's special thing. In theory, all those ships should be classed together in the same band, so that your "C-Store does not equal what is available in game" is cancelled out.
If the Excelsior, Nebula and Galaxy X are overpowered, then they should be nerfed or the other free ships enhanced to balance out any imbalances rather than calling for the death of the C-Store.
The strategy for the C-Store is to give players options to buy "additional" items. Exotic enough to entice people to get, if so desired, but not critical for competitive gameplay (keeping up with the haves and the have-nots). I've been playing for 100 days and haven't felt the need to buy a Galaxy X or an Excelsior T5.
I don't have a problem with superfluous items going into the C-Store, things like the Formalwear and extra emotes that don't really matter to my gameplay.
But for anything that is useful, like the new ships and alternative playable races, as long as there are free equivalents in the game or a way to get everything that is on the C-Store in alternative ways, for example, the Galaxy X being available for free via the referral program, then I am OK with it.
They just need to start working on incorporating the stuff on the C-Store for free in the game - which answers the concerns of the original post about the sense of earning rewards. If I could earn the Galaxy X or Excelsior through emblem grind or as a prize at the end of a special STF, then that would be acceptable.
People who couldn't wait or are not interested in doing those missions, "who may be casual players" with disposable income, could buy them on the C-Store instead.
Comments
I think the MMOs need to raise their prices to 20 bucks a month to deal with inflation... that or get a game store.... but that would make sense....
Thats assuming that what we have in game is what is available in the C-store which it is not. Our T3 Excel does not have the same or comparible capabilities as the one you purchase.. thats the beef.. if you disagree, lets do a private PVP.. I'll bring the T3 version, you bring the T5 (because I don't want to pay for it) and lets see how capable it is.
Why should the subscriber have to pay for a MORE powerful version with more capabilities. It should not be in the C-Store.. it should be unlocked in gameplay such as a reward for an Elite level STF.
and we don't have different versions of stuff in the C-Store..
as someone gave you a list already a few messages back.
You just dont get it. I'm not saying the T3 excelsior is = to the T5 excelsior. However, the T5 excelsior that you buy IS equal to the T5 ships in game you DONT have to buy. So if you simply want an excelsior class, you can get one in game for "free". If you want a T5 ship, you can get one in game for "free". However, if you want a T5 excelsior you have to pay for it. But you can ALREADY get an excelsior or a T5 ship in game without paying if you dont want to.
It isn't equal.. you aren't getting what I'm saying.......
here is an easy question for you to answer in a single word only " Name another T5 ship with transwarp skill or the BO slots allocated to the T5 Excelsior" and the diplomatic missions don't count as they are not based on the ship's skill.. or even better the Nebula's AWAC ability.
The answer is "NONE"
There you go.
C-Store does not equal what is available in game. IF they added a T5 ship that was free with transwarp capabitilies then your point would be correct and I would stand corrected and admit you are right.
The T5 Excelsior is NOT comparable to any other T5 ship in the game. Either you haven't actually read anything about it, or you are ignoring inconvenient facts while raising the damcon alarm.
The point, and I think you're intentionally missing it in your bid to defend Cryptic, is that regardless of how much you try to say to the contrary, here are the facts:
Items that are only obtainable in the C-Store, and are not just like any counterpart in the game because of their special traits/abilities:
T1 Constitution (barring those of us that got it as a pre-order)
T5 Excelsior
Galaxy-X
Federation Liberated Borg Bridge Officer
Klingon Liberated Borg Bridge Officer
Playable Caitian
Playable Federation Klingon
Playable Ferengi
Playable Joined Trill
Playable Pakled
Playable Rigellian
Playable Tellarite
Each of these items comes with one or more special traits and/or abilities that can have an impact on gameplay, however slight.
Since they are not available in-game, it means that unless you are willing to spend money beyond your subscription, you can't have them.
Yes, it is entirely a decision of whether or not to buy them, but no matter how you slice it, putting items with unique abilities in the C-Store without making them available in the game is a money grab. Plain, simple. If it wasn't, there'd be a way to get them in-game.
And if you're not willing to admit that, at least admit to either not actually knowing the differences, or fanboi defense trolling, and move on. One of the two.
I would frankly like to see every single player boycott the C-Store entirely. It'd send one heck of a message. Of course, that won't happen.
Even in PvP, capability, class-knowledge and dexterity count for more than what the T5 Excelsior comes with, surely. That ship is only contentious as it's an 'end-game' ship... currently... all arguments will be moot once we progress above it.
I don't understand why there's such a hullabaloo about it tbh... considering that there's more advantage gained from one of the playable races - where the stats give an edge whether Ensign or Vice Admiral... but again, only in ground-based PvP.
None of it hardly game-breaking.
I never said it was game-breaking. In fact, I actually said "...however slight."
The point is that these are differences, regardless of the amount of impact, that are not available at all in-game. It's deplorable.
I get what your saying. So buy it or don't...your choice. Same as a subscription or the game itself, if you want it pay the price. If it's not worth it to you, don't.
Unfortunately, you've also figured out that it's your choice to whine over nonsense so continue as you were. :rolleyes:
My girlfriend and I have been playing for 3 weeks now and our subs have already been canceled. Simple reasons, really and the c-store mentality is a major reason why we did so.
We were enjoyiing the game for what it is. We had initially passed on STO after hearing some of the horror stories, but siince we've played MMOs together for the years we have we figured, "Oh hell why not?! The game's just 20 bucks now let's give it a try! People always exaggerate about things on the forums of any game."
Sad to say that the majority of the complaints were valid and true.
Things like:
Being limited to 2 characters (3 once you unlock an accolade) and having to pay for more..
EMOTES for sale?!
Overpriced ships for sale (15-25 bucks for SINGLE SHIPS?!)
Not being able to group together for some of the content (like exploration missions)
Extreme repetiveness to gameplay/mission types.
Just things like that just makes the game not too enjoyable for us as a couple of potential long term subbers. Neither one of us have an issue with an item store, per se IF DONE RIGHT.
Respecs, renames, fluff clothing items, ship skins? Sure why not. Playable races, extra character slots (when so vastly limited as is to begin with), 'game changing' items? Not so much. Especially in a game where we see how unfinished it is and the problems it has which hinders our game play.
On top of that when we have seen very little progress on the bugs that keep hitting us and see more items introduced to the c-store and the talk/plans of the next overpriced item coming to it . . . well, it just turns us off to the game even more. Gives the *impression* that their priorities are off.
The way we see it why continue to give these guys our money each month? There are several MMOs on the market (and looking at our game shelf I think we own 90% of them lol) that we can subscribe to (for the same sub price this game charges) and experience a lot more content and gameplay all WITHOUT having to spend extra money!
Yeah, yeah the c store stuff is optional and what not, but it's not the point. It might be for now, but I wouldn't be surprised if I read somwhere a few months down the road that items are being added that give a distinct edge in gameplay and everything is per character transaction, either.
Yeah, I know . . ."STFU N00BS" and "Don't let the door hit you guys on your asses on the way out!" and "Good! If you don't like it then leave!" applies, but whatever. You can keep telling people who have issues with the game that and the hand few of you can enjoy being milked for all you're worth till the game bleeds to death.
PS: No, you can't have my stuff! :P
OMG !
You´re STILL playing that ?!
I tried it in open beta, does space still look like a 4-year old ran amok with his crayons ?
Suffice it to say, i barely mention the game to them anymore.
What do i say when someone asks about it being worth to play ? I usually try to be honest and tell them to wait until i can tell them it has gotten better (which it has since launch, no doubt) to a point where it should have been at launch (which it isn´t right now).
Wasn't referring to anyone in particular
Yeah... there are slight differences... but the negligible, fleeting impact of them - in only one aspect of the game - should allow for some perspective. There are far more things that might merit the use of the word 'deplorable.' - and certainly stuff more game-breaking
For me, it's not an issue of minuscule PvP advantage... I couldn't give a monkey's if someone has a Tac III skill slotted rather than a II for the loss of 'some' Eng functionality and ablehealrate - in fact, if PvP lifts your skirts, such an opponent might even be seen as more of a challenge, perhaps, rather than cause for tears and calling foul... stores simply should not exist AT ALL in a pay-for-game-then-subscribe game. Capitalism! Spit!
On the other hand, with the game being under new management, as it were, the potential for greatness is much higher now. STO had been misled for a long time - there is more to making a good game than just the IP attached, apparently Cryptic had been unaware of Atari's 1980s ET fiasco...but, I digress.
A single game rarely can appeal to every player equally nor can it make every player happy. A good game tends to have good elements that overshadow its bad elements. A bad game generally offends every type of player equally - and this is what STO achieved in its early days...leaving a sour taste in the mouth of all those who ate of it in Beta, Headstart and Release.
STO is better now than it was...I don't believe it is worth a monthly fee, still, nor do I believe it was ever worth the lifetime subscription fee...however, I think it is progressing to a point where it WILL be worth spending money in the C-store for game enjoyment as well as recommending the playing of it to others.
Like me, I figured you bought a lifetime because there was nothing else STO "needed" for you to want to be able to play for a long time. If not,
Now some would have us believe that there is a ship or something else in the c-store that affects this. I don't think so because everything there is "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T BUY IT".
All is well in my STO world. I bought and lifetime subscribed to one thing. And to my pleasure, it has gotten even better with time. Too few purchases that applies to these days.
Imagine how much a new faction is going to be:
5 tiers of ships with 3 ships each;
New bridge officer races;
New captain races;
New sectors.
If the refits are any indication, the Romulan faction will be at least $300, and it's a coin-toss whether they'll get a Warbird-with-cloak as part of that, or if the quite popular Romulan ship will cost extra.
This is true. The turn around stated with the replacement of the EP; which we recently had here. Additionally, Funcom paid close attention to the community's issues and corrected as many as possible as quickly as possible and really started to interact and provide lots of communication about things.
Sadly enough FunCom still does not sell any LtS but I'm prepaid until 2013 so I guess it does not matter. :cool:
The real turn around happened with the RotGs x-pack. It was solid all the way around and a LOT of people came back after the unanimous community and critical review feedback. Consequently what I'm driving at here is that there still is hope for STO provided that developer leadership and the active community are operating from the same agenda.
The take away message is simple, take care of the active players and they will be your marketing machine. This is also the principle idea in the OP - yes?
Okay, so when i started reading your thread I thought I was going to read some great insight into why you can't convince your friends about the value in this game. Such as its many faults that this game, as an MMO has, just like many other MMOs.
But it was a cleverly disguised C-store thread! Congrats!
Okay, so we have all heard this argument before and before its shoveled off into the C-store forum, please recognize that this is is all debatable from each side of the house. Items in the C-store can be viewed as "game changing" or not by opinion. It can be viewed as "unique" or not by opinion. And it can be viewed as "needed" or not by opinion. This opinion will rage on forever, as the model of MMO business changes.
Two things to keep in mind:
MMOs, like any other games are a BUSINESS. Do not fool yourselves into thinking otherwise. They are here to make money and profit at YOUR expense. As long as you enjoy yourself paying for the game, that is a good thing. if you are not enjoying yourself, stop paying and playing (and posting here LOL). This is the BEST way to affect the business model at this point.
C-Store: It's not going away no matter how much we whine and complain about it. In fact, they are not likely at all to change their current practices of putting the kinds of items into it. It's part of their financial model to keep STO rockin' and so by getting rid of the C-Store you are effectively getting rid of the game itself. They don't have enough subs alone to make this game successful and profitable (see my first point) without it.
While I dont necessarily disagree with your prior assertions, the part I underlined is patently wrong.
It would be interesting to know exact numbers as to subs and I would be willing to bet a sizable about of people bailed because they could not get the ships and other stuff in game so that inherently cost Cryptic money. The question is really boils down to how much revenue enchantments can the player base deal with while still paying a monthly fee for what principally amounts to access, occasional bug fixes and some small mission additions - at least up to this date.
It is as I have stated before, if they make a clear way for people to get all the stuff in the store in game - as we were promised prior to launch then I would also be willing to bet the vast majority of complaints about the store will simply vanish.
1. Services - there is no MMO that I know of that gives these away for free. The retrain token is available through other means ingame, but the account wide services are not available ingame.
2. Cosmetics - emotes, costumes, and skins fall under this. They already provide other ways to get similar items.
3. Ingame items - there are currently two different types of ingame items, preorder/special edition and ships. The only exclusive ship that we have to buy through the C-store is the T5 Excelsior. Galaxy X and the T5.5 refits (Defiant,Galaxy, Intrepid) are currently available through other means, but the Galaxy X's other mean takes actual work. Most MMOs doesn't allow people to purchase specific preorder/special edition items. In City of Heroes, their preorder items were added as vet rewards.
Each of the ingame items has the option to earn an ingame item for free or use the lazy way to purchase it with real money. I don't need to waste money on a costume pack, emote pack, or ship skin, but I can. As far as the Excelsior, it doesn't change the gameplay anymore than any other ship with a unique ability does. It is not like piloting an Excelsior will make you near invincible and able to destroy ships with just one simple attack.
If the C-store can continue to let us have free Seasons and not have to worry about stuff like Going Rogue, Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, and Cataclysm, then it is a small price to pay for most except for those that have to buy everything. DLCs and paid expansions seem to be prevalent in most game companies. If we see missions, features, and STFs on the C-store, then be worried. Otherwise, just laugh behind people's backs that they paid $15 to $25 for a lousy ship.
Actually neither you or I can say for sure if getting rid of the C-store would make the game go away. I think getting rid of the c-store will make the game "less" profitable for sure, so I don't think they will get rid of it. I think Cryptic would be much more willing to axe the game if STO didn't have a C-store and hence the extra income. Again, none of this we will ever know for sure.
I also agree on this point here. You can see my previous threads on both ways to earn more Emblems and as well as posts about making C-store items "Purchaseable" with Emblems. I think the solution to the C-store rants is the End game grind for Emblems actually.
True, the game won't vanish without a C-store, but it is a way for Cryptic to pay for maintenance fees, more devs, more GMs, and more technology to create free content for us. Putting up with buying useless items allows more free useless items. According to the City of Hero devs, the sales of the first microtransaction item allowed them to release a new character class that players of City of Villains have being waiting for months. Without the microtransaction, it wouldn't have been released or it would have taken years for it to become available. It would be interesting to get a dev response to show what features were released early or at all because of the C-store.
This is all anybody who is angry about the C-Store in general, and the Excelsior in particular, is requesting.
Well, for the VA token as well. Just like the other refits.
For me, the Excelsior is the only T5 ship that I find even tolerable design-wise. But I'm not paying $20 for it. No virtual item is worth more than maybe $10, and I probably would only really consider it around $5.
So they tried to milk me and instead I ended up canceling my subscription, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. Except for the diehard trekkies, everybody will reach their limit. Will it be the Nebula? Will it be the T'Pol jumpsuit? I kind of doubt it will be the TMP uniforms. It'll vary for everybody, but eventually Cryptic will alienate most, if not all, of their potential long-term customers for short-term gain.
The question for them then is, are diehard Trekkies going to be enough not just to sustain the game, but make it worth Cryptic's while? I suspect not.
Sad to hear you've cancelled your sub over the Excelsior issue... truly.
With respect, could I suggest a shift in viewpoint? Rather than think how much the Excelsior costs, total up all the money you spend - including the cost of the Excelsior - and calculate if the cost is worth the time played and/or time you will play in comparison to how much you'd spend on other games? And do the same bit of math for whatever extra C-Store item pops up in the future?
TBH, I think the vast bulk of MMOs are good value for money when viewed like that - and this one, too... even with the Excelsior outlay.
Personally, I've found that spending that dosh on the Excelsior - despite much rather not having to (no surprise there) - has added to my own sense of game fun and enjoyment... and that is, ultimately, why I'm here.
That's already how I looked at it. Not only is the Excelsior not worth $20, but since the plan is apparently to charge extra for significant content on top of the monthly subscription fee, that means I'm not getting my money's worth out of my $15 a month, either.
But surely you're still looking at a single ship as an individual cost, rather than spreading the total cost out more. Not saying you're wrong to do so... but for me, if I had that view, what the hell am I doing paying hard-earned real-life cash to play with transient pixels when a good Thai massage would be cheaper and, if I'm lucky, more... thrilling?
It's easy to devalue something, with the right mindset. Perhaps you're just not enjoying the game enough?
As for charging for significant content atop the subscription - all of the sub'd MMOs I've played have charged for expansions - it's the norm.
It's one ship.
ONE. SHIP.
And it costs half as much as an expansion to WoW, which includes new races and/or classes, new zones, new gear, new quests, new dungeons, new mounts, new abilities, new crafting professions...
I'd consider paying $20 for a real expansion, like, say, the addition of a Romulan faction. As long as it has fleshed out PvE, with new Romulan specific sectors, new Romulan ships and races and the like. (But not if the Warbird with cloaking device costs extra.)
The Excelsior isn't an expansion. It's new gear. Most games put out new gear without charging beyond the subscription fee, and they don't go bankrupt. I know WoW has put in new zones and dungeons and endgame armor sets without charging an extra dime; so has LotRO. So has most every other MMO out there.
I was just looking at the store for LotRO and the prices there are by far more reasonable than Cryptic's, and that's without charging a monthly subscription fee. And that's even taking into account the fact that I'm ****ed at Turbine for trying to sell me the same game twice.
I actually think that was funny...It's better than everyone always complaining.
I can see the Grand Nagus's point.
"Name another T5 ship with X..."
The free T5 ships in the game don't have comparable features either. The Intrepid has ablative generator, the Defiant has cloak and the Galaxy has saucer sep. The Transwarp drive is just the Excelsior T5's special thing. The Nebula's sensor net is it's special thing. In theory, all those ships should be classed together in the same band, so that your "C-Store does not equal what is available in game" is cancelled out.
If the Excelsior, Nebula and Galaxy X are overpowered, then they should be nerfed or the other free ships enhanced to balance out any imbalances rather than calling for the death of the C-Store.
The strategy for the C-Store is to give players options to buy "additional" items. Exotic enough to entice people to get, if so desired, but not critical for competitive gameplay (keeping up with the haves and the have-nots). I've been playing for 100 days and haven't felt the need to buy a Galaxy X or an Excelsior T5.
I don't have a problem with superfluous items going into the C-Store, things like the Formalwear and extra emotes that don't really matter to my gameplay.
But for anything that is useful, like the new ships and alternative playable races, as long as there are free equivalents in the game or a way to get everything that is on the C-Store in alternative ways, for example, the Galaxy X being available for free via the referral program, then I am OK with it.
They just need to start working on incorporating the stuff on the C-Store for free in the game - which answers the concerns of the original post about the sense of earning rewards. If I could earn the Galaxy X or Excelsior through emblem grind or as a prize at the end of a special STF, then that would be acceptable.
People who couldn't wait or are not interested in doing those missions, "who may be casual players" with disposable income, could buy them on the C-Store instead.