The OP does have a point, I think gamers should boycott game items that are labeled 'Unique' and 'Exclusive' until game devs and publishers actually start using the word properly again.
Like BF Bad Company 2, you could buy the pre-order edition, get a few unlocks and slog your way to the top, or you could wait a couple of months, buy a now cheaper copy and just buy the Instant-Win button that levels you to 60 straight away.
Long and short, buying pre-orders and special editions is pointless now unless it comes with an art book and a vinyl of the music score
Definitions of exclusive (adj)
1. high-class: limited to a group of people, especially one considered fashionable or wealthy
2. selective: excluding or intending to exclude many from participation or consideration
3. restricted in use: only available to or used by one person, group, or organization
Exclusivity, definitionally, does not imply an expiration date. Unless the exclusivity is specifically modified with an expiration date then one is not assumed to exist.
One example is not the industry standard, especially when that one example is from World of Warcraft which functions, as a business, so far beyond the industry standard as to be a complete anomaly.
If you read further I did list at least one other example, but off the top of my head dozens of WOW examples, EVE Online had special gifts for participating in event, Anarchy Online had the pioneer backpack, Hell Gate London had the dye packs. For MMOs, it is generally understood that if you buy a limited edition exclusive item it will not be available anymore (except maybe perhaps in another similarly limited fashion)
You do realize most of this stuff was free pre-order bonuses which are now being charged for, right? So you actually got a lot of it with the cheapest iteration. The two versions which were offered at a cost (the Deluxe and Collector's Editions) are still available, now at a lower price (as one would expect from an older title).
You and I define free differently. I paid for my game. With money. In the case of items that were included in the purchase price the price I paid for them (in addition to the money) is the time value of money, since I had to be an early adopter in order to acquire those items (or so I thought)
And if these editions are still available for purchase, why do the items need to be in the C-Store?
Also, the communicator, the art book, the Red Matter Capacitor, the Buddy Passes, the Automated Defence Battery, nor the shiny packaging those editions came with are in the C-Store.
Yeah, right now. In two weeks, who knows anymore.
Did you really think the C-Store was planned to be a collection of limited time offers that would be put up then promptly thrown in the garbage? Really? Something gave you this idea?
Well, I generally work under the assumption that whats on store shelves today wont be there forever. But thats beside the point. Cryptic has now removed any doubt that I can wait forever before getting something from the store. If I wasnt 100% sure maybe I would have bought something that Im now going to wait on, perhaps for eternity
Okay... so what would you know? Maybe you have an excellent business mind, or maybe you don't. You just said you're an accountant. You're position doesn't imply that you're an executive making important marketing decisions, just that you're crunching their numbers. In reality you could have swapped for "accountant" for "janitor" and "budgeting" for "floor cleaning" in your example and it would have been about as relevant to the situation (though admittedly less prestigious).
Budgeting doesnt imply knowledge of marketing decisions and how they impact, you know, the budget? Um, ok, if you say so
Bottom line, one of the most important marketing and sales tools is the promotion. Cryptic has disarmed itself of this tool. That will likely have long term financial consequences.
[quote[ Also, I would hight doubt that it's Cryptic's design staff that is making decisions regarding the C-Store. I don't think the people coming up with game mechanics or making models and textures are the ones behind these decisions. Realistically it might not even be someone at Cryptic, but instead the brass at Atari. [/quote]
I would bet anything that this is completely driven by the designers and their concept of fairness and not a marketing team that understands the importance of limited time offers and promotions. Management would have had to sign off on it, but dont kid yourself where this idea came from.
I always get a little nervous when I see someone being reasonable on the Internet... I think that is actually one of the signs of the apocalypse. Quick... do something crazy and malignant to put my mind at ease!
Yeah, reasonable as being defined as agreeing with your opinion. lol
Then you probably stop buying it, just like when a cryptic item that was supposed to be rare no longer is, youll likely stop buying it
And if you miss a sale that doesn't mean what you wanted to buy is forever off the table because you're late to the party, you just have to pay slightly more. You only have to worry when you're dealing with limited quantities and in this case we aren't. If you buy the game now at it's current market value you aren't getting these bonus items for free, while the pre-order offers allowed for that at launch.
But it means participating in the sale is forever off the table.
And yes, we were dealing with limited quantities. Theyre limited editions after all. The whole point was to get one of the limited number of boxes that came with promotion x. By putting those items in the C-Store they are no longer limited, but instead unlimited.
4.
You aren't getting your Veteran rewards? You should contract Cryptic's customer service department then. If you were an early adopter you should have your first package unlocked, and be about halfway to your second.
Right now, that effect early adopters. But if the same stuff is in place a year from now it no longer is a reward for being a first adaptor. So maybe something will be in place permanently that will only be within the reach of the early adopters. But right now Im betting against it based on the fungible definition of exclusive
5. Quote:
Because you paid for them?
Really, you bought the promotional item when it was originally offered? Time is a component when dealing with promotions, and not just the money. Unless you spent the money at the right time you were not part of the promotion.
[quote[ You can still buy a lot of this stuff on Ebay, maybe all of it. So you're kind of discounting your own argument. You didn't take part in the Del Taco promotion, you just paid to get the "reward" why do you deserve the reward you paid for, for the promotion you didn't take part in, while Sammy Somebody doesn't get to do the same? [/quote]
Wrong on both counts. A) I purchased one of the limited quantity cups from someone who did participate in the promotion. That doesnt undermine the rareness of the promotion in any way because the promotion is still limited to the same number of cups with the code Sammy Somebody can do the same. They can log onto Ebay or go to a store that still had the limited in quantity code and purchase it. Again, that in no way undermines the promotion. Having new codes created in addition to the promotion codes does undermine the promotion.
Definitions of exclusive (adj)
1. high-class: limited to a group of people, especially one considered fashionable or wealthy
2. selective: excluding or intending to exclude many from participation or consideration
3. restricted in use: only available to or used by one person, group, or organization
Exclusivity, definitionally, does not imply an expiration date. Unless the exclusivity is specifically modified with an expiration date then one is not assumed to exist.
("Definitionally?" That's not a word. You mean "by definition.")
You do realize those definitions support what I've said, right?
None of them imply an expiration date, but none imply the lack of an expiration date either. You'll notice that the definitions don't all include the term "limited time offer." The items were exclusive, limited at launch and for five months afterwards, to those who purchased them in the specified ways. They are still exclusive, as now they are only available to those people and those who buy them from the C-Store and everyone else is still excluded from having the items.
By your own definition the items were exclusive, and are exclusive, and what you presented doesn't do anything to suggest one way or other that "exclusivity" is limited by time, which makes sense since the word itself does nothing to indicate it.
If you read further I did list at least one other example, but off the top of my head dozens of WOW examples, EVE Online had special gifts for participating in event, Anarchy Online had the pioneer backpack, Hell Gate London had the dye packs. For MMOs, it is generally understood that if you buy a limited edition exclusive item it will not be available anymore (except maybe perhaps in another similarly limited fashion)
The problem here is that you're mostly using in-game awards as examples. Things achieved for doing something in game or being there at a certain time, and not bonus items offered with purchase. Really, the entire idea is relatively new, one pioneered in the console market where more often than not we do see exclusives disseminating over time (I don't even think I need to give examples here). Pre-order bonuses for MMOs aren't exactly a common thing, so having expectations of them is questionable.
The only things so far which mirror these are the Tamarian Items, the Borg Tribble, and the Veteran Rewards which aren't in the C-Store (beyond the reoccurring Veteran bonuses like character slots).
The only real exception you offer here is Hellgate, a game that's gone free-to-play in some areas and had it's support terminated in the US and EU. A dead game not to be used as a model.
As far as stuff that are given out at purchase in the retail box, we mostly see that from games with online stores, and we see the content released to the store. Cryptic's first game, City of Heroes/Villains, is a good example of this. Purchase of a boxed copy of CoX allows access to a choice of free content with it that can also be purchased in the NCSoft Store, by either new or old customers.
You and I define free differently. I paid for my game. With money. In the case of items that were included in the purchase price the price I paid for them (in addition to the money) is the time value of money, since I had to be an early adopter in order to acquire those items (or so I thought)
You're intentionally trying to ignore your own logic now. Your entire stance relies on the idea that these items were marketed as "exclusive" and thus you feel they should be (even though to an extent they still are, and there was never a limit to that exclusivity established). Your entire stance relies on a term used in the marketing.
You can't now say they weren't free bonuses when they were also marketed as such.
You're cherry picking and that just doesn't work. They were items offered at no extra charge to customers of certain places, and not others who bought the same products elsewhere. Thus they were free. If they were a paid part of the product as you're now trying to suggest and not a bonus than you should have no issue with everyone getting them as everyone paid for the product, and they are not a "bonus" but instead an integral part of the product included in the associated cost that everyone paid.
Discount the marketing and they need not be exclusive as the marketing doesn't matter, include it and they were free.
And if these editions are still available for purchase, why do the items need to be in the C-Store?
Conversely, why not? If I can still get them from GameStop why should I not be able to get them from Cryptic? Your argument is that they should be unavailable to the average consumer, which they aren't and never have been.
Well, I generally work under the assumption that whats on store shelves today wont be there forever. But thats beside the point. Cryptic has now removed any doubt that I can wait forever before getting something from the store. If I wasnt 100% sure maybe I would have bought something that Im now going to wait on, perhaps for eternity
Quick! Go buy a lifetime supply of Oreos! They could be gone tomorrow!
Seriously? You actually thought for a second they were going to stop offering a digital product while the game is still viable?
Budgeting doesnt imply knowledge of marketing decisions and how they impact, you know, the budget?
Actually no, it doesn't. A knowledge of accounting does not apply an in depth understanding of marketing anymore than a knowledge of marketing implies an in depth understand of accounting. There will be frames of reference that crossover, but the two fields are distinct. That's why the majority of companies have both a marketing division and an accounting division which consult each other.
Companies are, without exception, a financial endeavour and thus are top to bottom about money and a function of budget. If accountants were, on average, knowledgeable enough to offer sage advice on all of the financial concerns of a marketing matter then marketing divisions would not exist and their duties would be handled by the accountants. Maybe you have this knowledge. Perhaps you are a marketing wizard, but that would make you the exception and not the rule.
Also, Oreos. Just... Oreos. Kinda has me thinking you're not the exception. You may be a great accountant, but I have to question your take on marketing there.
Bottom line, one of the most important marketing and sales tools is the promotion. Cryptic has disarmed itself of this tool. That will likely have long term financial consequences.
They've offered part of a package deal that is still on sale today, and a few one-time free promotions as paid products now as opposed to being given away. You think this has removed the value of future promotions? No, lessened it sure, but value is still there. You should be able to recognize that.
I would bet anything that this is completely driven by the designers and their concept of fairness and not a marketing team that understands the importance of limited time offers and promotions. Management would have had to sign off on it, but dont kid yourself where this idea came from.
Yes. That makes sense. Businessmen always let artists make the important decisions.
Limited time offers are of value, but so is selling a product, and in this case the commodity in question was being given away initially as a limited time offer, and then sold later. So that offer still has some worth, or the object in question would be free. And in the video game industry this has become par for the course. Selling pre-order bonuses down the line is the standard. Hell, the exclusive content from the Limited Edition version of Jade Empire on the Xbox (which was ten dollars more) has since been given away to all owners, and was included free, along with other content, in the PC version released later. That extra ten dollars on the Limited Edition bought exclusive access to a character and a weapon for several months.You don't seem to recognize that early access to something is a perk in and of itself, and that it is worth something. That is why people become early adopters despite knowing full well that there will be price drops in the future.
This is the way the industry exists today, if you can't accept this you might want to start shopping for a new hobby where you can be assured of limited runs like stamp collecting.
4.
Right now, that effect early adopters. But if the same stuff is in place a year from now it no longer is a reward for being a first adaptor. So maybe something will be in place permanently that will only be within the reach of the early adopters. But right now Im betting against it based on the fungible definition of exclusive
You will ALWAYS be ahead of the game because you've subscribed earlier. You will always have something that people who subscribed 100 days or more after you do not have.
Wrong on both counts. A) I purchased one of the limited quantity cups from someone who did participate in the promotion. That doesnt undermine the rareness of the promotion in any way because the promotion is still limited to the same number of cups with the code
Except that you purchased one of the limited quantity cups from someone who did participate in the promotion, and did not participate in the promotion yourself. You were arguing that the reward should be for participation or early adoption, and not just given to those who pay.
Sammy Somebody can do the same. They can log onto Ebay or go to a store that still had the limited in quantity code and purchase it. Again, that in no way undermines the promotion. Having new codes created in addition to the promotion codes does undermine the promotion.
Except that none of the promotions were advertised to be of limited quantities that I know of, except perhaps the shuttle and that's not in the C-Store. I seem to recall all pre-orders being honoured with bonuses, thus quantities weren't limited, just demand at the time.
Everyone here realizes that these items were never promised that they would not be sold in something like the C-Store right....?
If you read the pre order FAQ... or one of those FAQ's (I forget which one) it said that all the items would eventually be sold in the C-Store after launch.
FYI - Lifer here and multi box purchaser for various items and no I am not ****ed at all.
I was going to fisk you, but you keep repeating the same nonsense over and over, so Ill hit the key points and wish you on your way
1) Once an exclusive promotion is opened up the entire population of the game it ceases to be exclusive. There is no longer any practical limit to the number of these items that can be in existence where as previously there was. Thus, the claim on the box that this was exclusive content was a lie.
2) You seem pretty well obsessed with my qualifications to judge the truthfulness and effectiveness of Cryptics departure from the games claim of exclusive content. I wonder, what makes you so qualified?
3) And, yes, when you say reasonable you mean someone who agrees with you. As you have stated, the boxes with the content are out there. Since I am not removing them from the shelves I am denying nobody anything.
4) Stuff I pay for isnt free. If I give you money for a box, with the understanding that the stuff inside the box is now my property, then I have paid for it.
5) A huge problem with a number of game companies, in many mediums, is that the creative team so often functions, at least partly, as the administration team. Which is why so many of them fail miserably.
This last one is crucial, so pay attention Cryptic
In business there is a very simple concept of supply and demand. So simple that every person reading this has already heard of it and can probably give a decent definition of what it means. One of the key elements here is scarcity. If an item is scarce and the demand exceeds the supply whatever the object were talking about is becomes more valuable. If supply exceeds demand the object becomes less valuable. In between the two extremes of zero supply and infinite supply is where you will find your maximum profit level. You have chosen infinite supply, and in the long term it will hurt you. It will hurt you in future sales of games, in your ability to attract early adopters, and in your ability to upsell.
I don't think they should add everything to the C-Store, I'm fine with the uniforms, and all that other cosmetic stuff that they just added, being there, but I have to agree with cryptic's current C-store policy regarding the other stuff. They shouldn't offer game changing items in C-Store, you shouldn't be able to buy an advantage over other players, if cryptic did that, they might as well be promoting Goldselling and powerleveling.
I was going to fisk you, but you keep repeating the same nonsense over and over, so Ill hit the key points and wish you on your way
I'd make a pot/kettle comment here... except what I've posted isn't nonsense. You're just being childish.
1) Once an exclusive promotion is opened up the entire population of the game it ceases to be exclusive. There is no longer any practical limit to the number of these items that can be in existence where as previously there was. Thus, the claim on the box that this was exclusive content was a lie.
Okay, so where is my Next Generation Uniform that I've never bought? By your logic I should have it, as it's not exclusive. Apparently I'm not excluded, yet I can't select that option in the game. I am just as excluded now as I was at launch, due to the fact that I have not gone out of my way to get it. I could do that then, and I can do it now, but I chose and choose not to. Thus I am excluded, and you can go back to feeling good about yourself.
2) You seem pretty well obsessed with my qualifications to judge the truthfulness and effectiveness of Cryptics departure from the games claim of exclusive content. I wonder, what makes you so qualified?
When did I say I was qualified, or make a claim in an attempt to try and give my opinion more weight than it would be able to garner on it's own merit? I've never made more of my opinion than simple opinion, you on the other hand are trying to pass yourself as an expert despite what you're presenting suggesting otherwise. I wasn't the one self-aggrandizing with the likes of, "Oh, what would someone like *ME* know about this, I'm just an expert of a field I just stated is not entirely my own!"
I've questioned your qualifications because you seemed fit to present them as though they were meaningful, all while apparently being unable to grasp simple related concepts.
You can't grasp that timed exclusive access is meaningful, and one of the primary reasons early adopters of just about anything exist (pre-order bonuses aren't the reason, FYI, considering most things don't even offer them). You thought Cryptic was going to pull products off their digital store in time based on nothing, despite them being able to keep them up at basically no cost to themselves and garner a continued stream of revenue, and you believe this is a sound move, from a marketing standpoint (basically tossing money down the drain for no reason other than to do so). You also apparently didn't bother to read the disclaimer in the FAQ that Cryptic had up prior to launch saying that this might happen, so you didn't bother to read the fine print in a marketing campaign and now are complaining because you didn't think to be bothered. You also frequently keep trying to misrepresent how the product was marketed and rely on that marketing, all the while discounting portions of the marketing when it's in your best interest (and only then). Really? I mean... really? And you want us to weight your words more heavily because you believe yourself to be some kind of expert?
3) And, yes, when you say reasonable you mean someone who agrees with you. As you have stated, the boxes with the content are out there. Since I am not removing them from the shelves I am denying nobody anything.
Except of course you keep wavering back and forth between the pre-order bonuses AND the special edition bonuses. Some are available easily in boxes on store shelves, some are not. And if you're not denying anyone anything, then why do you care if the wares are disseminated via another method (which we were told might happen) at a fee to those who want them?
I am starting to believe you bought a plethora of copies at launch with the bonus items and have been holding onto them in some grand half-baked scheme to sell them later on EBay to make copious amounts of money, and now you're of course heartbroken because Cryptic has foiled your scheme. Haven't you ever read Batman or seen a James Bond movie? You should know by now that all schemes get foiled.
4) Stuff I pay for isnt free. If I give you money for a box, with the understanding that the stuff inside the box is now my property, then I have paid for it.
Well, if you discount the marketing and they weren't a free bonus, but a part of the product and a part which you paid for then they weren't exclusive either. They were a part of the product everyone bought and should not only be available in the marketplace, but free to everyone since they paid what you paid for a boxed copy of Star Trek Online, thus obviously they paid for them as well, including the ones they did not receive. Apparently their content just got lost in the shuffle...
5) A huge problem with a number of game companies, in many mediums, is that the creative team so often functions, at least partly, as the administration team. Which is why so many of them fail miserably.
You make broad, generalized statements about things obviously not your field, even by your own admission. And you wonder why I question your qualifications...? Are you running the majority of video game publishers and thus intimately familiar with their relationship with the involved development houses? Because I somehow doubt it.
Also, very few publishers are going out of business (you do know the difference between a developer and a publisher, right?). And actually the major qualm that developers tend to have is that publishers don't give them enough power or say... on the creative end of things. If you think any developer short of Bioware or Valve is given ANY say on the business end of their wares then I have to question if you've ever even taken a passing glance at the video game industry.
This last one is crucial, so pay attention Cryptic
In business there is a very simple concept of supply and demand. So simple that every person reading this has already heard of it and can probably give a decent definition of what it means. One of the key elements here is scarcity. If an item is scarce and the demand exceeds the supply whatever the object were talking about is becomes more valuable. If supply exceeds demand the object becomes less valuable. In between the two extremes of zero supply and infinite supply is where you will find your maximum profit level. You have chosen infinite supply, and in the long term it will hurt you. It will hurt you in future sales of games, in your ability to attract early adopters, and in your ability to upsell.
These items were scare for five months. They are only on sale now, giving the previous owners five months of exclusive use. You completely discount the value of that, which is laughable. There is a reason we see corporations like Microsoft entering into agreements with Activision for exclusivity (even time-limited) of the content to be released for their Call of Duty games. Early access has value which you seem to miss. This is also why people buy games, consoles and PC hardware like graphics cards at launch, despite knowing full well that prices will drop. They get to enjoy and experience those things before others, and thus the value comes from that; the enjoyment.
In your world, apparently, the only enjoyment one can have is in the bragging rights of depriving others eternally of things to which you have gained access since you seem to discount all else.
You're also ignoring that game prices are pretty much fixed at launch, and only go down from there. So your supply and demand idea is... kind of absurd. They aren't going to drive up Star Trek Online sales by not selling the game or content for it.
The most they will be doing is withering their ability to sell multiple boxes to single consumers in the future. Not entirely eliminating it as some people will still always want early access, but reducing it to a degree, perhaps even a significant one.
Here's the thing... who bloody cares? That is not a business where the bulk of revenue comes from boxes in stores. Why do you think MMOs are marked down so quickly at retail? Where the money comes from is subscriptions and expansions, not trying to get Norman Nobody to buy eight boxes of the game at launch so he can get six extra in-game shirts, a whistle and a bell to tie around his neck.
This game, at least in part, is meant to appeal to Star Trek fans. Forever locking out access to iconic Star Trek items (like the uniforms) in your estimation is going to win them a plethora of new subscriptions? Seems more likely to drive away those who've only recently become interested in the title in my estimation. But hey, you're probably a Professional Star Trek Fan Evaluator too and you'll be able to assure me now how in your expert opinion that keeping classically themed Star Trek items out of a Star Trek game makes Star Trek fans giddy. Right? I mean, you know accounting, you know marketing, you know the video game industry from both the developer's and publisher's standpoint... you gotta know this too I'm sure.
Ok, seriously, Im done. Claim victory you like, for I yield. Your last couple of posts have been little more than throwing accusations around me and talking in circles. As you really have no new questions or new arguments aside from those presented I dont anticipate myself having anything new to say. Your arguments of full of contradictions (theyre on the shelf now and theyre scarce, for example). And Im well the past the age where Im willing to just shout back and forth about the same thing until someone gets carpel tunnel and forfeits on account of injury.
For the myriad of reasons Ive stated this is a bad decision, one that can potentially cause a significant future revenue problem. But maybe it might not, I dont have a crystal ball, just a lot of experience with this kind of thing. But, and I mean this sincerely, you need scarcity to drive demand. Targeted timed promotions would be much more effective than what theyre doing now. And while I allege no legal wrong doing making exclusive content (whether it was explicity stated online or not, since we all know game forums are generally used by a very small portion of the games populace) available like this breaks trust with customers. Certainly not all of them as a big chunk of you have no problem with it, but once you lose trust, even with a relatively small portion of your base, youve lost it, and you likely wont get it back.
The funny Déjà vu for me here is I had almost this exact same conversation with the Neocron people right before that game disappeared (although I hear its sequel has/had some life to it in Europe) and then a few years later having the same conversation with the 3DO people right before Heroes Vs lack of multi-player put the final nail in their coffin.
These kind of things matter. And if the a population of users on the forums dont appreciate it thats certainly their right. But I hope the folks at Cryptic think long and hard about the message they just sent, and how it could impact them in the future.
And just to address your final point. No, I dont necessarily think its a great idea to keep star trek fans from using their favorite uniforms. But, I dont think its a good idea to market them as exclusives and then change your mind. Even accepting the Cryptic realizes now it made a mistake and it wants to put them in the C-Store now I continue to believe (as I said in another post) that some sort of other item should be offered to players that registered with the appropriate CD key. I get wanting to walk back something that they may regret, but the way theyre doing it is going to create a distrust that will likely have consequences beyond this single game.
No one here knew that before the game launched cryptic said all the pre order items would be made available to everyone though something like the C-Store?
No one here knew that before the game launched cryptic said all the pre order items would be made available to everyone though something like the C-Store?
I don't know about anyone else, but i'm just irked that they're out so soon on the C-Store. I would have no problem at all had they simply waited a few months more.
I don't know about anyone else, but i'm just irked that they're out so soon on the C-Store. I would have no problem at all had they simply waited a few months more.
*shrug* I do not honestly mind. I mean most of them I do not even use these days the few that I do I am well over caring if someone else runs around in the same outfit as me or not. Sure the exclusivity is fun but at the same time... well it does nothing at the end game which is where I have been for quite a while.
This month, last month or another 6 months from now at some point they release them and they are out there so I figure might as well let go sooner than later other wise no matter when they release them I could find reasons to be upset about it.
Ok, seriously, Im done. Claim victory you like, for I yield.
Why does everyone always say they're done right before they continue to argue some more? It seems the hope is, of course, that if they claim some form of finality there before throwing one last punch that they believe they're going to get in the last hit with impunity. For the record, that never works, and also it's exceedingly infrequent that when someone says that it actually ends up being their last post in the topic where they say it.
Your last couple of posts have been little more than throwing accusations around me and talking in circles.
Throwing accusations? Beyond questioning your expertise, which you were so intent on sharing, the closest I came was a joke about an Ebay scheme. As far as talking in circles goes, well there's one way to stop me from repeating my responses to your arguments: address them. You don't. You provided a stance, I rebutted and you... restated your stance without addressing my rebuttal at all, and then occasionally you've chosen things I've said out of context about another related matter, and tried to apply them improperly to the first matter to show a non-existent flaw in my argument, when you're in fact generating a second argument that doesn't pan, that I never made, and attributing it to me in an attempt to discredit me. That's called a "straw man."
Your arguments of full of contradictions (theyre on the shelf now and theyre scarce, for example).
*sigh* And here we will get to your Straw Man. I'd like to think it was a simple mistake on your part, but I blatantly pointed out the flaw in your attempt with my last post, making that unlikely, and instead probably a simple attempt at obfuscation, at trying to muddy my argument with trickery.
If you want to follow the twisted path of the matter you're referring to here backward, it started with me making a statement about someone else entirely being reasonable. At this point, my first post in this thread, in response to you I specifically made note of "free pre-order bonuses which are now being charged for" and placed emphasis there. You jumped on what I said to the other poster like a starved cougar on a one-legged doe, suggesting that I define reasonable as someone who agrees with me, to which I replied to with, "No, reasonable being defined as not seeking to deny others something which costs you nothing."
You followed this by suggesting that YOU were being reasonable by referencing something I said previously to another poster about the Collector's Edition and Deluxe Edition, and how they were still on shelves, and thus you were not trying to deny anyone anything, entirely ignoring how the pre-order bonus items that I specifically mentioned to you are not in either of those editions and that you very much are arguing for denying people them, making your statement a blatant untruth.
You're now specifically trying to blur the two issues (pre-order items and CE/DE items) and rely on something unrelated to poke imaginary holes in my argument. I have specifically pointed to pre-order items in terms of rarity, and not the CE/DE items. I have pointed out the difference between the two, and you have ignored it in favour of your straw man.
Also, after your suggestion of reasonability and claim that you don't seek to deny access, with the CE/DE in stores being your evidence of that, I asked why you would then balk at items being in the C-Store and got no response. If you aren't trying to deny access, the CE/DE do not qualify as justification, as they do NOT cover the pre-order items. Your evidence also does nothing to explain the objection to anything in the C-Store on any level. If you aren't trying to make access an issue, then why are you apparently trying take issue over a method of distribution meant to ease access? No matter how you slice it, what you said quite simply must contain an element of untruth.
This hearkens back to your reliance on one of the three words used in regards to how these items were marketed, while simultaneously denying two thirds of it outright. You did this specifically in relation to the pre-order content. You point to the "exclusive free bonuses" line that was put out there in regards to these wares, but you focus solely on word "exclusive" and say it must be exclusive (and your own fictitious definition of exclusive which has a lack of any limitation implied in the word, when there is no implication of limits either way) because it was marketed as so. You then abruptly and flatly state that you feel wronged because you paid for this content that was "included in the purchase price."
You just can't do that and be entirely honest. If you believed that content to be an element of what you were paying for, and not a "free bonus" that was being given to you in addition to what was included in the purchase price, then you're disregarding what it was marketed as. You are denying the marketing outright, and yes, you did that. You can't do so without denying the entirety, including that it was exclusive, or else you're trying to pick and choose only that which suits your argument, while disregarding the rest out of hand, simply because it undermines you. This is disingenuous in the extreme, to the point of, again, requiring an element of untruth from you. You must simultaneously suggest that the marketing was gospel with one mouth, while discrediting it all as bull spit with the other. That doesn't work, it's called cherry picking, and like a straw man that does not make for a valid argument.
Very much seems like smoke and mirrors on your part.
The only thing you could arguably say is a contradiction (which still isn't, but could be interpreted as such based off the language), would be my initial response to you, compared to the response I made to the other poster, but that doesn't relate to the argument you're trying to make. For full disclosure and clarity, I'll point out what I'm referring to.
I said both:
The problem being that most of these things aren't particularly rare as many of the items can still be gained by buying the involved product. The Deluxe and Collector's Editions can still easily be purchased, for instance, from many retailers and currently at a discounted price from launch.
... and...
You do realize most of this stuff was free pre-order bonuses which are now being charged for, right? So you actually got a lot of it with the cheapest iteration. The two versions which were offered at a cost (the Deluxe and Collector's Editions) are still available, now at a lower price (as one would expect from an older title).
One could, if they specifically wanted to misinterpret me, take that to mean that I was saying most of the items were both from the CE/DE -and- free pre-orders. Which is not what I stated, in fact. I specifically said in that first portion that "most of these things aren't particularly rare" indicating that some are, and used the DE and CE as a "for instance," meaning they were not the only source I was referring to, just one example, and continued on with, "You can also find a number of code-based items up on Ebay," to show there is still some way to obtain some of the rarer items, as well as the commonly available CE/DE items, thus suggesting that the collective of bonus items weren't that rare, even if some are, and if the items in the CE/DE are the minority of what was offered at launch.
My arguments don't contradict, Heck, what your suggesting was my contradictory argument, that the pre-order items are hard to obtain and the CE/DE are not isn't even an argument it's a statement of fact, or if you'd like to question it's validity, then it's evidence in question. So I definitely didn't contradict my own argument since that doesn't even qualify as an argument.
And just to address your final point. No, I dont necessarily think its a great idea to keep star trek fans from using their favorite uniforms. But, I dont think its a good idea to market them as exclusives and then change your mind.
Which raises two issues, firstly you've been arguing that this is a bad move to offer these items, you have not previously qualified it, and in fact stated this as your expert opinion. You now seem to be acknowledging that not doing so is a bad move as well.
Second, they didn't change their mind. The pre-order FAQ made it clear that the items could eventually be sold in their store, and I can assure that the fine print on the bonus material made no promises about remaining exclusive for more than five months (or even five months).
People just assumed.
The borg captain was marketed as a part of the Lifetime package. The press release never even mentioned exclusivity, many people just assumed that would be the only way to get it even if that was never mentioned. I know because I've had this discussion with someone just after launch who assumed it was an exclusive deal, and I pointed out that it wasn't, even linking to the press material and various websites musing over whether that word not being used might mean it would end up in the C-Store sooner rather than later, some speculating that it could happen within the month. So far it still is exclusive, but there was never any assurances made on that concerning the borg captain.
Assumptions one party might have about a deal, do not shape the reality of the deal.
The information, in relation to the pre-orders and the borg, was available prior to purchase. Is it reasonable to expect everyone to hunt down every piece of information about every product they buy? No. On the other hand, if you're going to do something unreasonable like buy four copies a video game and a Lifetime subscription to it so that you don't need those packages, and are only getting them because you want what is clearly offered as "bonus" with them, then it's not only wise but it should be expected that you're going to do some digging and figure out the exact nature of that "bonus" before plunking down $400+ dollars.
You know this. Objectively you have to know this is correct.
If you thought otherwise, didn't do the research despite the information being there, and made a rash purchase you regret you have every right to feel bad about that. You made a mistake, everyone does occasionally, but the blame is not with Cryptic. Denying your own mistake and blaming them is fruitless and dishonest.
As much as this isnt even close to what some people payed... I payed almost $100 Canadian for the STO Collectors Edition GameStop Preorder so meanwhile now there was almost no point to having payed so much for it when i could have just wait 4 months and gotten my TNG and VOY/DS9 Uniforms for 10 bucks....i dont care about the fact that my TOS Connie is available and i dont care about being special it was just a bad move for Cryptic to put the TNG and VOY/DS9 stuff on the C-Store since now only Trek collectors would by a copy of the collectors STO
Second, they didn't change their mind. The pre-order FAQ made it clear that the items could eventually be sold in their store, and I can assure that the fine print on the bonus material made no promises about remaining exclusive for more than five months (or even five months).
Happyhappyjoyjoy, I don't know if anyone's going to read the entire post you've made. I am sure there was a way for you to make it concise and succinct.
Anyhow, I am not sure if you are aware of this, but the "Pre-Order FAQ" page wasn't available until well after the game was introduced in the market. I hope that this helps with your argument about how the interested buyers should've done "proper" research. In most of the major MMOs, when the Companies claim that the items are exclusive, they usually mean it isn't available by other means besides through the original means.
Happyhappyjoyjoy, I don't know if anyone's going to read the entire post you've made. I am sure there was a way for you to make it concise and succinct.
Well yes, I could have been more concise I suppose. My lengthy posts, however, are in response to multiple arguments made about multiple topics, and they're in response to someone who has already been misinterpreting what I've said, and did so when I was previously being concise. As such, more detail, and thus more words and complexity, are required as a response... and still the person I was mainly responding to (perhaps intentionally) was misinterpreting what I was saying, even attributing arguments to me that I hadn't made.
My first post, in fact was very concise. It was three short paragraphs, two of them only consisting of only two sentences.
You took one word out of it and wrote two paragraphs about that alone. You chided me in both. You used utter tripe to do so. Over one word. That in the scheme of things you got wrong. You weren't so succinct then, were you?
Still being "cute" I see.
Anyhow, I am not sure if you are aware of this, but the "Pre-Order FAQ" page wasn't available until well after the game was introduced in the market.
Wow, THERE you were concise. Free from all kinds of detail, unfortunately when people are concise they usually cut out the superfluous and leave in all the relevant information. You did not.
The pre-order FAQ page wasn't available when the pre-orders were first announced, but it WAS out well before launch, in fact it was last updated nearly a month prior to the game's release. That is more than enough time to cancel a pre-order at any retailer associated with a pre-order bonus, in fact with most you require as little as one day.
Since your pre-order with these companies actually would have given you access to the week long head start, you actually could have played the game and still cancelled your order. So more than enough time and opportunity was given to evaluate your decisions and change your mind if you felt you were entering into a deal you didn't feel comfortable with.
Cryptic even refunded some of the multiple month and lifetime subscriptions post-launch.
Well yes, I could have been more concise I suppose. My lengthy posts, however, are in response to multiple arguments made about multiple topics, and they're in response to someone who has already been misinterpreting what I've said, and did so when I was previously being concise. As such, more detail, and thus more words and complexity, are required as a response... and still the person I was mainly responding to (perhaps intentionally) was misinterpreting what I was saying, even attributing arguments to me that I hadn't made.
My first post, in fact was very concise. It was three short paragraphs, two of them only consisting of only two sentences.
You took one word out of it and wrote two paragraphs about that alone. You chided me in both. You used utter tripe to do so. Over one word. That in the scheme of things you got wrong. You weren't so succinct then, were you?
Still being "cute" I see.
Wow, THERE you were concise. Free from all kinds of detail, unfortunately when people are concise they usually cut out the superfluous and leave in all the relevant information. You did not.
The pre-order FAQ page wasn't available when the pre-orders were first announced, but it WAS out well before launch, in fact it was last updated nearly a month prior to the game's release. That is more than enough time to cancel a pre-order at any retailer associated with a pre-order bonus, in fact with most you require as little as one day.
Since your pre-order with these companies actually would have given you access to the week long head start, you actually could have played the game and still cancelled your order. So more than enough time and opportunity was given to evaluate your decisions and change your mind if you felt you were entering into a deal you didn't feel comfortable with.
Cryptic even refunded some of the multiple month and lifetime subscriptions post-launch.
My sincere apologies for my misunderstanding or the lack of understanding.
I'd make a pot/kettle comment here... except what I've posted isn't nonsense.
You know how I can tell it's late and I need to get off to bed? I read that as "I'd make a PAKLED comment here ... except what I've posted isn't nonsense" ... and was like ohhhhhh, zing.
Comments
Like BF Bad Company 2, you could buy the pre-order edition, get a few unlocks and slog your way to the top, or you could wait a couple of months, buy a now cheaper copy and just buy the Instant-Win button that levels you to 60 straight away.
Long and short, buying pre-orders and special editions is pointless now unless it comes with an art book and a vinyl of the music score
You and I define free differently. I paid for my game. With money. In the case of items that were included in the purchase price the price I paid for them (in addition to the money) is the time value of money, since I had to be an early adopter in order to acquire those items (or so I thought)
And if these editions are still available for purchase, why do the items need to be in the C-Store?
Yeah, right now. In two weeks, who knows anymore. Well, I generally work under the assumption that whats on store shelves today wont be there forever. But thats beside the point. Cryptic has now removed any doubt that I can wait forever before getting something from the store. If I wasnt 100% sure maybe I would have bought something that Im now going to wait on, perhaps for eternity Budgeting doesnt imply knowledge of marketing decisions and how they impact, you know, the budget? Um, ok, if you say so
Bottom line, one of the most important marketing and sales tools is the promotion. Cryptic has disarmed itself of this tool. That will likely have long term financial consequences.
[quote[ Also, I would hight doubt that it's Cryptic's design staff that is making decisions regarding the C-Store. I don't think the people coming up with game mechanics or making models and textures are the ones behind these decisions. Realistically it might not even be someone at Cryptic, but instead the brass at Atari. [/quote]
I would bet anything that this is completely driven by the designers and their concept of fairness and not a marketing team that understands the importance of limited time offers and promotions. Management would have had to sign off on it, but dont kid yourself where this idea came from.
Yeah, reasonable as being defined as agreeing with your opinion. lol
The Collector's Edition had an art book. And a shiny case. And a communicator.
But it means participating in the sale is forever off the table.
And yes, we were dealing with limited quantities. Theyre limited editions after all. The whole point was to get one of the limited number of boxes that came with promotion x. By putting those items in the C-Store they are no longer limited, but instead unlimited.
4. Right now, that effect early adopters. But if the same stuff is in place a year from now it no longer is a reward for being a first adaptor. So maybe something will be in place permanently that will only be within the reach of the early adopters. But right now Im betting against it based on the fungible definition of exclusive
5. Quote: Really, you bought the promotional item when it was originally offered? Time is a component when dealing with promotions, and not just the money. Unless you spent the money at the right time you were not part of the promotion.
[quote[ You can still buy a lot of this stuff on Ebay, maybe all of it. So you're kind of discounting your own argument. You didn't take part in the Del Taco promotion, you just paid to get the "reward" why do you deserve the reward you paid for, for the promotion you didn't take part in, while Sammy Somebody doesn't get to do the same? [/quote]
Wrong on both counts. A) I purchased one of the limited quantity cups from someone who did participate in the promotion. That doesnt undermine the rareness of the promotion in any way because the promotion is still limited to the same number of cups with the code
("Definitionally?" That's not a word. You mean "by definition.")
You do realize those definitions support what I've said, right?
None of them imply an expiration date, but none imply the lack of an expiration date either. You'll notice that the definitions don't all include the term "limited time offer." The items were exclusive, limited at launch and for five months afterwards, to those who purchased them in the specified ways. They are still exclusive, as now they are only available to those people and those who buy them from the C-Store and everyone else is still excluded from having the items.
By your own definition the items were exclusive, and are exclusive, and what you presented doesn't do anything to suggest one way or other that "exclusivity" is limited by time, which makes sense since the word itself does nothing to indicate it.
The problem here is that you're mostly using in-game awards as examples. Things achieved for doing something in game or being there at a certain time, and not bonus items offered with purchase. Really, the entire idea is relatively new, one pioneered in the console market where more often than not we do see exclusives disseminating over time (I don't even think I need to give examples here). Pre-order bonuses for MMOs aren't exactly a common thing, so having expectations of them is questionable.
The only things so far which mirror these are the Tamarian Items, the Borg Tribble, and the Veteran Rewards which aren't in the C-Store (beyond the reoccurring Veteran bonuses like character slots).
The only real exception you offer here is Hellgate, a game that's gone free-to-play in some areas and had it's support terminated in the US and EU. A dead game not to be used as a model.
As far as stuff that are given out at purchase in the retail box, we mostly see that from games with online stores, and we see the content released to the store. Cryptic's first game, City of Heroes/Villains, is a good example of this. Purchase of a boxed copy of CoX allows access to a choice of free content with it that can also be purchased in the NCSoft Store, by either new or old customers.
You're intentionally trying to ignore your own logic now. Your entire stance relies on the idea that these items were marketed as "exclusive" and thus you feel they should be (even though to an extent they still are, and there was never a limit to that exclusivity established). Your entire stance relies on a term used in the marketing.
You can't now say they weren't free bonuses when they were also marketed as such.
You're cherry picking and that just doesn't work. They were items offered at no extra charge to customers of certain places, and not others who bought the same products elsewhere. Thus they were free. If they were a paid part of the product as you're now trying to suggest and not a bonus than you should have no issue with everyone getting them as everyone paid for the product, and they are not a "bonus" but instead an integral part of the product included in the associated cost that everyone paid.
Discount the marketing and they need not be exclusive as the marketing doesn't matter, include it and they were free.
Conversely, why not? If I can still get them from GameStop why should I not be able to get them from Cryptic? Your argument is that they should be unavailable to the average consumer, which they aren't and never have been.
Quick! Go buy a lifetime supply of Oreos! They could be gone tomorrow!
Seriously? You actually thought for a second they were going to stop offering a digital product while the game is still viable?
Actually no, it doesn't. A knowledge of accounting does not apply an in depth understanding of marketing anymore than a knowledge of marketing implies an in depth understand of accounting. There will be frames of reference that crossover, but the two fields are distinct. That's why the majority of companies have both a marketing division and an accounting division which consult each other.
Companies are, without exception, a financial endeavour and thus are top to bottom about money and a function of budget. If accountants were, on average, knowledgeable enough to offer sage advice on all of the financial concerns of a marketing matter then marketing divisions would not exist and their duties would be handled by the accountants. Maybe you have this knowledge. Perhaps you are a marketing wizard, but that would make you the exception and not the rule.
Also, Oreos. Just... Oreos. Kinda has me thinking you're not the exception. You may be a great accountant, but I have to question your take on marketing there.
They've offered part of a package deal that is still on sale today, and a few one-time free promotions as paid products now as opposed to being given away. You think this has removed the value of future promotions? No, lessened it sure, but value is still there. You should be able to recognize that.
Yes. That makes sense. Businessmen always let artists make the important decisions.
Limited time offers are of value, but so is selling a product, and in this case the commodity in question was being given away initially as a limited time offer, and then sold later. So that offer still has some worth, or the object in question would be free. And in the video game industry this has become par for the course. Selling pre-order bonuses down the line is the standard. Hell, the exclusive content from the Limited Edition version of Jade Empire on the Xbox (which was ten dollars more) has since been given away to all owners, and was included free, along with other content, in the PC version released later. That extra ten dollars on the Limited Edition bought exclusive access to a character and a weapon for several months.You don't seem to recognize that early access to something is a perk in and of itself, and that it is worth something. That is why people become early adopters despite knowing full well that there will be price drops in the future.
This is the way the industry exists today, if you can't accept this you might want to start shopping for a new hobby where you can be assured of limited runs like stamp collecting.
No, reasonable being defined as not seeking to deny others something which costs you nothing.
Well, the prices of all games go down with time, with the exceptions of a few rare old cartridge games that are impossible to find.
Yes, the sale IS off the table. The free pre-order bonuses aren't free anymore.
No a Deluxe Edition and a Collector's Edition which are still in production.
You will ALWAYS be ahead of the game because you've subscribed earlier. You will always have something that people who subscribed 100 days or more after you do not have.
No, no one bought them when they were originally offered as they were free. They are for sale now.
Except that you purchased one of the limited quantity cups from someone who did participate in the promotion, and did not participate in the promotion yourself. You were arguing that the reward should be for participation or early adoption, and not just given to those who pay.
Pick an argument.
Except that none of the promotions were advertised to be of limited quantities that I know of, except perhaps the shuttle and that's not in the C-Store. I seem to recall all pre-orders being honoured with bonuses, thus quantities weren't limited, just demand at the time.
If you read the pre order FAQ... or one of those FAQ's (I forget which one) it said that all the items would eventually be sold in the C-Store after launch.
FYI - Lifer here and multi box purchaser for various items and no I am not ****ed at all.
1) Once an exclusive promotion is opened up the entire population of the game it ceases to be exclusive. There is no longer any practical limit to the number of these items that can be in existence where as previously there was. Thus, the claim on the box that this was exclusive content was a lie.
2) You seem pretty well obsessed with my qualifications to judge the truthfulness and effectiveness of Cryptics departure from the games claim of exclusive content. I wonder, what makes you so qualified?
3) And, yes, when you say reasonable you mean someone who agrees with you. As you have stated, the boxes with the content are out there. Since I am not removing them from the shelves I am denying nobody anything.
4) Stuff I pay for isnt free. If I give you money for a box, with the understanding that the stuff inside the box is now my property, then I have paid for it.
5) A huge problem with a number of game companies, in many mediums, is that the creative team so often functions, at least partly, as the administration team. Which is why so many of them fail miserably.
This last one is crucial, so pay attention Cryptic
In business there is a very simple concept of supply and demand. So simple that every person reading this has already heard of it and can probably give a decent definition of what it means. One of the key elements here is scarcity. If an item is scarce and the demand exceeds the supply whatever the object were talking about is becomes more valuable. If supply exceeds demand the object becomes less valuable. In between the two extremes of zero supply and infinite supply is where you will find your maximum profit level. You have chosen infinite supply, and in the long term it will hurt you. It will hurt you in future sales of games, in your ability to attract early adopters, and in your ability to upsell.
I'd make a pot/kettle comment here... except what I've posted isn't nonsense. You're just being childish.
Okay, so where is my Next Generation Uniform that I've never bought? By your logic I should have it, as it's not exclusive. Apparently I'm not excluded, yet I can't select that option in the game. I am just as excluded now as I was at launch, due to the fact that I have not gone out of my way to get it. I could do that then, and I can do it now, but I chose and choose not to. Thus I am excluded, and you can go back to feeling good about yourself.
When did I say I was qualified, or make a claim in an attempt to try and give my opinion more weight than it would be able to garner on it's own merit? I've never made more of my opinion than simple opinion, you on the other hand are trying to pass yourself as an expert despite what you're presenting suggesting otherwise. I wasn't the one self-aggrandizing with the likes of, "Oh, what would someone like *ME* know about this, I'm just an expert of a field I just stated is not entirely my own!"
I've questioned your qualifications because you seemed fit to present them as though they were meaningful, all while apparently being unable to grasp simple related concepts.
You can't grasp that timed exclusive access is meaningful, and one of the primary reasons early adopters of just about anything exist (pre-order bonuses aren't the reason, FYI, considering most things don't even offer them). You thought Cryptic was going to pull products off their digital store in time based on nothing, despite them being able to keep them up at basically no cost to themselves and garner a continued stream of revenue, and you believe this is a sound move, from a marketing standpoint (basically tossing money down the drain for no reason other than to do so). You also apparently didn't bother to read the disclaimer in the FAQ that Cryptic had up prior to launch saying that this might happen, so you didn't bother to read the fine print in a marketing campaign and now are complaining because you didn't think to be bothered. You also frequently keep trying to misrepresent how the product was marketed and rely on that marketing, all the while discounting portions of the marketing when it's in your best interest (and only then). Really? I mean... really? And you want us to weight your words more heavily because you believe yourself to be some kind of expert?
Except of course you keep wavering back and forth between the pre-order bonuses AND the special edition bonuses. Some are available easily in boxes on store shelves, some are not. And if you're not denying anyone anything, then why do you care if the wares are disseminated via another method (which we were told might happen) at a fee to those who want them?
I am starting to believe you bought a plethora of copies at launch with the bonus items and have been holding onto them in some grand half-baked scheme to sell them later on EBay to make copious amounts of money, and now you're of course heartbroken because Cryptic has foiled your scheme. Haven't you ever read Batman or seen a James Bond movie? You should know by now that all schemes get foiled.
Well, if you discount the marketing and they weren't a free bonus, but a part of the product and a part which you paid for then they weren't exclusive either. They were a part of the product everyone bought and should not only be available in the marketplace, but free to everyone since they paid what you paid for a boxed copy of Star Trek Online, thus obviously they paid for them as well, including the ones they did not receive. Apparently their content just got lost in the shuffle...
You make broad, generalized statements about things obviously not your field, even by your own admission. And you wonder why I question your qualifications...? Are you running the majority of video game publishers and thus intimately familiar with their relationship with the involved development houses? Because I somehow doubt it.
Also, very few publishers are going out of business (you do know the difference between a developer and a publisher, right?). And actually the major qualm that developers tend to have is that publishers don't give them enough power or say... on the creative end of things. If you think any developer short of Bioware or Valve is given ANY say on the business end of their wares then I have to question if you've ever even taken a passing glance at the video game industry.
These items were scare for five months. They are only on sale now, giving the previous owners five months of exclusive use. You completely discount the value of that, which is laughable. There is a reason we see corporations like Microsoft entering into agreements with Activision for exclusivity (even time-limited) of the content to be released for their Call of Duty games. Early access has value which you seem to miss. This is also why people buy games, consoles and PC hardware like graphics cards at launch, despite knowing full well that prices will drop. They get to enjoy and experience those things before others, and thus the value comes from that; the enjoyment.
In your world, apparently, the only enjoyment one can have is in the bragging rights of depriving others eternally of things to which you have gained access since you seem to discount all else.
You're also ignoring that game prices are pretty much fixed at launch, and only go down from there. So your supply and demand idea is... kind of absurd. They aren't going to drive up Star Trek Online sales by not selling the game or content for it.
The most they will be doing is withering their ability to sell multiple boxes to single consumers in the future. Not entirely eliminating it as some people will still always want early access, but reducing it to a degree, perhaps even a significant one.
Here's the thing... who bloody cares? That is not a business where the bulk of revenue comes from boxes in stores. Why do you think MMOs are marked down so quickly at retail? Where the money comes from is subscriptions and expansions, not trying to get Norman Nobody to buy eight boxes of the game at launch so he can get six extra in-game shirts, a whistle and a bell to tie around his neck.
This game, at least in part, is meant to appeal to Star Trek fans. Forever locking out access to iconic Star Trek items (like the uniforms) in your estimation is going to win them a plethora of new subscriptions? Seems more likely to drive away those who've only recently become interested in the title in my estimation. But hey, you're probably a Professional Star Trek Fan Evaluator too and you'll be able to assure me now how in your expert opinion that keeping classically themed Star Trek items out of a Star Trek game makes Star Trek fans giddy. Right? I mean, you know accounting, you know marketing, you know the video game industry from both the developer's and publisher's standpoint... you gotta know this too I'm sure.
For the myriad of reasons Ive stated this is a bad decision, one that can potentially cause a significant future revenue problem. But maybe it might not, I dont have a crystal ball, just a lot of experience with this kind of thing. But, and I mean this sincerely, you need scarcity to drive demand. Targeted timed promotions would be much more effective than what theyre doing now. And while I allege no legal wrong doing making exclusive content (whether it was explicity stated online or not, since we all know game forums are generally used by a very small portion of the games populace) available like this breaks trust with customers. Certainly not all of them as a big chunk of you have no problem with it, but once you lose trust, even with a relatively small portion of your base, youve lost it, and you likely wont get it back.
The funny Déjà vu for me here is I had almost this exact same conversation with the Neocron people right before that game disappeared (although I hear its sequel has/had some life to it in Europe) and then a few years later having the same conversation with the 3DO people right before Heroes Vs lack of multi-player put the final nail in their coffin.
These kind of things matter. And if the a population of users on the forums dont appreciate it thats certainly their right. But I hope the folks at Cryptic think long and hard about the message they just sent, and how it could impact them in the future.
And just to address your final point. No, I dont necessarily think its a great idea to keep star trek fans from using their favorite uniforms. But, I dont think its a good idea to market them as exclusives and then change your mind. Even accepting the Cryptic realizes now it made a mistake and it wants to put them in the C-Store now I continue to believe (as I said in another post) that some sort of other item should be offered to players that registered with the appropriate CD key. I get wanting to walk back something that they may regret, but the way theyre doing it is going to create a distrust that will likely have consequences beyond this single game.
No one here knew that before the game launched cryptic said all the pre order items would be made available to everyone though something like the C-Store?
I don't know about anyone else, but i'm just irked that they're out so soon on the C-Store. I would have no problem at all had they simply waited a few months more.
*shrug* I do not honestly mind. I mean most of them I do not even use these days
This month, last month or another 6 months from now at some point they release them and they are out there so I figure might as well let go sooner than later other wise no matter when they release them I could find reasons to be upset about it.
Why does everyone always say they're done right before they continue to argue some more? It seems the hope is, of course, that if they claim some form of finality there before throwing one last punch that they believe they're going to get in the last hit with impunity. For the record, that never works, and also it's exceedingly infrequent that when someone says that it actually ends up being their last post in the topic where they say it.
Throwing accusations? Beyond questioning your expertise, which you were so intent on sharing, the closest I came was a joke about an Ebay scheme. As far as talking in circles goes, well there's one way to stop me from repeating my responses to your arguments: address them. You don't. You provided a stance, I rebutted and you... restated your stance without addressing my rebuttal at all, and then occasionally you've chosen things I've said out of context about another related matter, and tried to apply them improperly to the first matter to show a non-existent flaw in my argument, when you're in fact generating a second argument that doesn't pan, that I never made, and attributing it to me in an attempt to discredit me. That's called a "straw man."
*sigh* And here we will get to your Straw Man. I'd like to think it was a simple mistake on your part, but I blatantly pointed out the flaw in your attempt with my last post, making that unlikely, and instead probably a simple attempt at obfuscation, at trying to muddy my argument with trickery.
If you want to follow the twisted path of the matter you're referring to here backward, it started with me making a statement about someone else entirely being reasonable. At this point, my first post in this thread, in response to you I specifically made note of "free pre-order bonuses which are now being charged for" and placed emphasis there. You jumped on what I said to the other poster like a starved cougar on a one-legged doe, suggesting that I define reasonable as someone who agrees with me, to which I replied to with, "No, reasonable being defined as not seeking to deny others something which costs you nothing."
You followed this by suggesting that YOU were being reasonable by referencing something I said previously to another poster about the Collector's Edition and Deluxe Edition, and how they were still on shelves, and thus you were not trying to deny anyone anything, entirely ignoring how the pre-order bonus items that I specifically mentioned to you are not in either of those editions and that you very much are arguing for denying people them, making your statement a blatant untruth.
You're now specifically trying to blur the two issues (pre-order items and CE/DE items) and rely on something unrelated to poke imaginary holes in my argument. I have specifically pointed to pre-order items in terms of rarity, and not the CE/DE items. I have pointed out the difference between the two, and you have ignored it in favour of your straw man.
Also, after your suggestion of reasonability and claim that you don't seek to deny access, with the CE/DE in stores being your evidence of that, I asked why you would then balk at items being in the C-Store and got no response. If you aren't trying to deny access, the CE/DE do not qualify as justification, as they do NOT cover the pre-order items. Your evidence also does nothing to explain the objection to anything in the C-Store on any level. If you aren't trying to make access an issue, then why are you apparently trying take issue over a method of distribution meant to ease access? No matter how you slice it, what you said quite simply must contain an element of untruth.
This hearkens back to your reliance on one of the three words used in regards to how these items were marketed, while simultaneously denying two thirds of it outright. You did this specifically in relation to the pre-order content. You point to the "exclusive free bonuses" line that was put out there in regards to these wares, but you focus solely on word "exclusive" and say it must be exclusive (and your own fictitious definition of exclusive which has a lack of any limitation implied in the word, when there is no implication of limits either way) because it was marketed as so. You then abruptly and flatly state that you feel wronged because you paid for this content that was "included in the purchase price."
You just can't do that and be entirely honest. If you believed that content to be an element of what you were paying for, and not a "free bonus" that was being given to you in addition to what was included in the purchase price, then you're disregarding what it was marketed as. You are denying the marketing outright, and yes, you did that. You can't do so without denying the entirety, including that it was exclusive, or else you're trying to pick and choose only that which suits your argument, while disregarding the rest out of hand, simply because it undermines you. This is disingenuous in the extreme, to the point of, again, requiring an element of untruth from you. You must simultaneously suggest that the marketing was gospel with one mouth, while discrediting it all as bull spit with the other. That doesn't work, it's called cherry picking, and like a straw man that does not make for a valid argument.
Very much seems like smoke and mirrors on your part.
The only thing you could arguably say is a contradiction (which still isn't, but could be interpreted as such based off the language), would be my initial response to you, compared to the response I made to the other poster, but that doesn't relate to the argument you're trying to make. For full disclosure and clarity, I'll point out what I'm referring to.
I said both:
... and...
One could, if they specifically wanted to misinterpret me, take that to mean that I was saying most of the items were both from the CE/DE -and- free pre-orders. Which is not what I stated, in fact. I specifically said in that first portion that "most of these things aren't particularly rare" indicating that some are, and used the DE and CE as a "for instance," meaning they were not the only source I was referring to, just one example, and continued on with, "You can also find a number of code-based items up on Ebay," to show there is still some way to obtain some of the rarer items, as well as the commonly available CE/DE items, thus suggesting that the collective of bonus items weren't that rare, even if some are, and if the items in the CE/DE are the minority of what was offered at launch.
My arguments don't contradict, Heck, what your suggesting was my contradictory argument, that the pre-order items are hard to obtain and the CE/DE are not isn't even an argument it's a statement of fact, or if you'd like to question it's validity, then it's evidence in question. So I definitely didn't contradict my own argument since that doesn't even qualify as an argument.
Which raises two issues, firstly you've been arguing that this is a bad move to offer these items, you have not previously qualified it, and in fact stated this as your expert opinion. You now seem to be acknowledging that not doing so is a bad move as well.
Second, they didn't change their mind. The pre-order FAQ made it clear that the items could eventually be sold in their store, and I can assure that the fine print on the bonus material made no promises about remaining exclusive for more than five months (or even five months).
People just assumed.
The borg captain was marketed as a part of the Lifetime package. The press release never even mentioned exclusivity, many people just assumed that would be the only way to get it even if that was never mentioned. I know because I've had this discussion with someone just after launch who assumed it was an exclusive deal, and I pointed out that it wasn't, even linking to the press material and various websites musing over whether that word not being used might mean it would end up in the C-Store sooner rather than later, some speculating that it could happen within the month. So far it still is exclusive, but there was never any assurances made on that concerning the borg captain.
Assumptions one party might have about a deal, do not shape the reality of the deal.
The information, in relation to the pre-orders and the borg, was available prior to purchase. Is it reasonable to expect everyone to hunt down every piece of information about every product they buy? No. On the other hand, if you're going to do something unreasonable like buy four copies a video game and a Lifetime subscription to it so that you don't need those packages, and are only getting them because you want what is clearly offered as "bonus" with them, then it's not only wise but it should be expected that you're going to do some digging and figure out the exact nature of that "bonus" before plunking down $400+ dollars.
You know this. Objectively you have to know this is correct.
If you thought otherwise, didn't do the research despite the information being there, and made a rash purchase you regret you have every right to feel bad about that. You made a mistake, everyone does occasionally, but the blame is not with Cryptic. Denying your own mistake and blaming them is fruitless and dishonest.
Happyhappyjoyjoy, I don't know if anyone's going to read the entire post you've made. I am sure there was a way for you to make it concise and succinct.
Anyhow, I am not sure if you are aware of this, but the "Pre-Order FAQ" page wasn't available until well after the game was introduced in the market. I hope that this helps with your argument about how the interested buyers should've done "proper" research. In most of the major MMOs, when the Companies claim that the items are exclusive, they usually mean it isn't available by other means besides through the original means.
Well yes, I could have been more concise I suppose. My lengthy posts, however, are in response to multiple arguments made about multiple topics, and they're in response to someone who has already been misinterpreting what I've said, and did so when I was previously being concise. As such, more detail, and thus more words and complexity, are required as a response... and still the person I was mainly responding to (perhaps intentionally) was misinterpreting what I was saying, even attributing arguments to me that I hadn't made.
My first post, in fact was very concise. It was three short paragraphs, two of them only consisting of only two sentences.
You took one word out of it and wrote two paragraphs about that alone. You chided me in both. You used utter tripe to do so. Over one word. That in the scheme of things you got wrong. You weren't so succinct then, were you?
Still being "cute" I see.
Wow, THERE you were concise. Free from all kinds of detail, unfortunately when people are concise they usually cut out the superfluous and leave in all the relevant information. You did not.
The pre-order FAQ page wasn't available when the pre-orders were first announced, but it WAS out well before launch, in fact it was last updated nearly a month prior to the game's release. That is more than enough time to cancel a pre-order at any retailer associated with a pre-order bonus, in fact with most you require as little as one day.
Since your pre-order with these companies actually would have given you access to the week long head start, you actually could have played the game and still cancelled your order. So more than enough time and opportunity was given to evaluate your decisions and change your mind if you felt you were entering into a deal you didn't feel comfortable with.
Cryptic even refunded some of the multiple month and lifetime subscriptions post-launch.
My sincere apologies for my misunderstanding or the lack of understanding.
You know how I can tell it's late and I need to get off to bed? I read that as "I'd make a PAKLED comment here ... except what I've posted isn't nonsense" ... and was like ohhhhhh, zing.
Not entirely true. Have you checked the prices on vintage guitars lately? :cool: