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The Premade vs. PUG problem
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I am going to relate this in a way most can understand.
Every night a group of 10 guys stands around a public park and get together to just play some football. Maybe they get another 10, maybe they just make a couple of groups of 5. Either way, they just get together every night and play a game and have a good time.
Eventually, a professional football team hears of the nightly game and decides that they want to jump in. So the professional football team comes in one night, having training and knowing each others strengths. Well, the group of guys just wanting to have fun are not only beaten.. they are destroyed.
The professional football team then decides that it is time to start yelling "L2P" and "this is where you went wrong.. blah blah blah" when you were just an average guy with a random team..TRYING to have fun.
Well, as time goes on, the professional team starts to show up every night. And as time goes by the guys who used to hang out at that park have either quit coming or have moved on to another park, in hopes that they can have fun again.
The professional football team gets upset that the people are not there any more and decides that it is the other guy's fault for not "learning to play" and just leaving. They then pat themselves on the back for "pwning the nubs" as they wait weeks for a potential game again, until they hear about a NEW park..and go repeat this story again.
This is basically what premades are doing to STO.. and any other darn game they find.
Make a queue for random players only and get the premades out of the way of the guys who just want to play the darn game.
Give them a queue, a ladder.. or whatever feeds their E-peens and let the rest of us have fun.
Or sit around in your empty park slapping each other on the back, congratulating yourselves on how you now rule this empty place.
Every night a group of 10 guys stands around a public park and get together to just play some football. Maybe they get another 10, maybe they just make a couple of groups of 5. Either way, they just get together every night and play a game and have a good time.
Eventually, a professional football team hears of the nightly game and decides that they want to jump in. So the professional football team comes in one night, having training and knowing each others strengths. Well, the group of guys just wanting to have fun are not only beaten.. they are destroyed.
The professional football team then decides that it is time to start yelling "L2P" and "this is where you went wrong.. blah blah blah" when you were just an average guy with a random team..TRYING to have fun.
Well, as time goes on, the professional team starts to show up every night. And as time goes by the guys who used to hang out at that park have either quit coming or have moved on to another park, in hopes that they can have fun again.
The professional football team gets upset that the people are not there any more and decides that it is the other guy's fault for not "learning to play" and just leaving. They then pat themselves on the back for "pwning the nubs" as they wait weeks for a potential game again, until they hear about a NEW park..and go repeat this story again.
This is basically what premades are doing to STO.. and any other darn game they find.
Make a queue for random players only and get the premades out of the way of the guys who just want to play the darn game.
Give them a queue, a ladder.. or whatever feeds their E-peens and let the rest of us have fun.
Or sit around in your empty park slapping each other on the back, congratulating yourselves on how you now rule this empty place.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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not in mine.
Also, I guess you didn't read the post, because what you stated here.. has little do to with what I wrote.
Yes that type of organizes group activity is clearly bad for the game...
Or not.
Are you unable to read and comprehend what I wrote?
Because your response would indicate that you missed the meaning of every single word and then decided to extrapolate your own secret meaning to create your counter-argument... if you can call it that.
Where did I say "solo"?
Nowhere.
Guild Wars has PUG and Premade Queues. Not hard to do.
Read it again.. think about it. THEN post.
Thanks :-) I will.
i have been in many pug groups that organized very very well, we have even destroyed some of your so called premade fleet groups.
i presume you play fed in pvp mostly based upon what you are saying. (i will freely admit this is a pure speculation on my part). sad thing is klingons tend to be much better in pvp and can pug more effectively then the feds because at least 3/4 of their leveling (before the season 1 patch it was almost all pvp based) is pvp. not only agains fed player, but also against other, more skilled klingons.
klingon pugs work together as a team far better than fed pugs.
lord help the feds if there were as many klingons as feds...
\\\discliaimer - i have a radm5 fed and regularly pvp vs both fed and klink
i have a commander klingon and regularly pvp vs both fed and klink
above statement based upon observations made while pvpin and from my friends that pvp
and other pvp threads on these forums.
The goal is to provide a more 'balanced' -- or normalised -- win:loss ratio for all players. So everyone will not only be matched with and against equivalent players, but they will also be assured more of a challenge.
Check out the thread I linked above. It is also in my signature.
I gave your analogy the dignity it earned. It makes no sense, and doesn't apply. I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, and believe you weren't trying to legitimately suggest that the average joe football team should be able to beat the professional team... right?
In your analogy you compare a professional football team with organized player groups in STO, and the average joe football team to PUGs in STO. Big problem - it doesn't apply at all to STO. No one can join a professional football team, average people can't simply sign up for the New York Giants. BUT ANYONE in STO can join an organized fleet and become a contributing member of an organized PvP team.
Your problem is you want to be successful in PvP, but PvP in STO requires a team (you cannot even enter a PvP match without a minimum of 5 players on your TEAM). That word "team" is apparently too high of a benchmark for you, and the result is you want Cryptic to fix that problem for you with code?
So I read your post and I asked myself - is this guy just being too lazy to organize himself for the competition of PvP in STO?
The answer I concluded was - YEP!
There are numerous options that any player can take action on when in your situation, and the one you decided to act upon was to complain that in a massive multiplayer online game where PvP is group centric, the people who organize are the problem. Your analysis completely ignores how PUG teams lose, and how that in and of itself may suggest the individual PUGs are each individually the problem.
Nope, you didn't do that, because to do so would be to reflect the possibility that you are somehow not doing something right, that in a perfect world disorganized and unplanned individuals will be able to come together and quickly compete against high level competition...
To reflect on any possible solution other than the merits and tranquility of chaotic team play, you would had to reflect that somehow what you were doing was probably not optimal. Surely not a perfect soul such as yourself...
And after considerable effort at the keyboard, you took the high road of telling every one who works to be part of a team how they are the problem...
Are you feeling me yet? Is the sarcasm hitting home? Who is missing whose point?
Maybe instead of saying people who organize are the problem, you should try joining a better fleet that is more active and inline with your playstyle? Who knows, maybe you'll have fun when you get to know all those thousands of people out there in the galaxy, and you may learn to stop losing to those you call "professional" - who are really nothing more than people who work together.
Of course you will get groups that play like that from time to time. But the frequency is far less than actual premades.
It is well outside the standard deviation, and I think not really related to the overall subject.
I do understand what you are saying though.
QFT,
Premades aren't the problem. People who think they can accomplish anything by themselves are.
Nope, i was suggesting that it is rather rude for the profession football team to ruin the fun of the guys hanging out trying to have fun, without being hassled and berated.
The analogy is that a group that is constant, works together, has builds to support one another is like a professional football team. You missed this point as well. The guys who just meet in the part as opposed to the guys who play together constantly and know each other's moves.
Guild Wars does this very well. It has been done before and it can be done again. Also don't tell me what my benchmarks are. You don't know me. There are a lot of guys who don't have fleets or are in small friend based fleets and they are not always on at the same time. These guys (and there are more of THEM than in fleets, THAT much I am sure of) are unable to put together a 5 man constantly. I am barely ever able to put together 3 man's, because I am not in a fleet and my friends live in different countries. There are factors here you are not considering. Lots of people are in this boat.
I noticed you like to answer your own questions. Next time ask me. Or don't bother posting it. See above paragraph.
My analysis was showing the basic idea of why pugs lose to premades. Sure there are LOT of factors.. almost infinite actually. The post would be endless if I was to make a case for every variable that MIGHT satisfy your needs. Once again.. I said just some random guys in the park. Did you see me talk about these random guys skills or prowess?
When I am doing a capture and hold (which I don't see a lot of premades it) I have typically been going 30-0 kill to death ratio. I am doing fine. When I am in the premade fest of "kill 15" then you die in 2 seconds. I am doing fine, Thanks for asking though. Also, once again you missed the point of the post. Please read it again. This has nothing to do with "unplanned individuals will be able to come together and quickly compete against high level competition". This is about a place for the "rest of us" to play. The guys with lives who don't want to or are unable to spend HOURS trying to coordinate a mass group of players into a premade. Some of us log in for a few minutes.. and then have stuff to do. What about those guys?.. and there are more of us than not.
You are. Read it again. You have missed nearly every point, twisted it and replied to your own mental version of what you recreated in your head. I don't know how to make it simpler for you. Do you need crayons and a big chief pad?
You missed the point of nearly everything I said. Good job. I wish there was an award for somebody like you.
Read this man's post for a deeper explanation. But since you have not grasped this simple one... good luck
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=127714
and you missed the point as well. Grats
No I got the point. You made a bad comparison. Even if you had made a better one, I dont see how premades are a problem in STO or any other game.
In STO, everyone has access to the same Bridge Office Skills, Equipment, Weapons, Ships and the ability to work in a team. In the case of a professional football team against a amateur league, the pro footballers have access to the best physical training and best equipment.
A more suited comparison would be two pro football teams, one who plays as a team and a team that focuses on individual plays.
Sure, premade teams do tend to be a little vocal about winning, but losing teams are just as vocal, if not more so. I can't tell you how many times our fleet has been called exploiters, how many times we've been accused of using cheap tactics and skills that everyone has access to.
Premades are not the problem, fools who expect to go up against a premade teams and win because they are so awesome are.
You want to put premades in a seperate Queues? We jump at the chance to fight other premades. We even made a chat channel about it. But the truth is, not that many premades exist out there.
You want to penalize us because you cant be bothered to get in a group and play with a team? Sadly, this is the mentality in STO right now. Players level up thinking they are the bomb because they can take on 10 enemies at once in PvE and then complain about PvP.
And this only proves you missed my point.
See, we DON'T have an option to NOT run into premades. Also the whole "cant be bothered to get in a group and play with a team" junk was also in the post, but you missed that as well.
I am more of a PvP Guy that a PvE guy so your "Players level up thinking they are the bomb because they can take on 10 enemies at once in PvE and then complain about PvP." statment is pointless. Please read it again, because you missed it. Still are missing it. And.. well... I have a feeling you will keep on missing it.
in fact.. tell you what. Until you manage to actually POST why my point was,.. You are not even worth replying to any more
So post what my point is, and I will let you know if you are right.
I don't see that happening though.
The above posts seem to describe -symptoms- of the problem, not the actual problem or its cause.
The problem is 'imbalanced' win:loss ratios (i.e., not 1:1).
The cause is poor matchmaking, because there is no implemented system yet that can 1) evaluate 'skill' (in terms of output) of players, and 2) remember that evaluation and rate different players accordingly (in order to match up similarly rated players).
My solution is linked above, and in my signature. Check it out. Comment on it. Let's get enough support to escalate it. We need this.
yeah, I read your post. It was great. I agree it would be hard to measure the value of what a capture point is worth. Maybe if there are 1200 total points in capture and your captures are responsible for say 600 points / number of people involved in capture, then it could be a mathematical bonus to your overall score... the added value of the overall performance.
yes,. this.
Thank you for understanding.
This has been done in many games successfully.
But please post all feedback in that thread. It keeps it concentrated and easier to use.
Also, posts of support in that thread are more tangible and easier to show to the DEVs.
Just in case anyone missed it, here is a link to the thread explaining how to make a better matchmaking system (click me!).
done and posted
1) QQ
2) That you say "I'm a casual player and don't want to fight against people who do this for a living because they are ruining my experience of the game! Please make it so I don't have to fight them anymore if I don't want to".
I would think that fighting superior opponent(s) would make you reconsider tactics and skill sets in an effort to become better. At least, that's the though process I go through when my TRIBBLE is handed to me.
Instead, you accused all premade groups of being nothing more than no-life bullies intent on ruining experience for everyone else just for the sake of ego-stroking and self worth.
Since you are so keen on using real life examples. If you were a member of a militia, would you disobey your CO if he ordered you to take on trained soldiers and not enemy militia instead?
I don't even care if I am still missing your point.
lol, pathetic.
Exacly why I have no respect for you and other federation players who QQ on the forums about OP-this and OP-that.
See, Matt has a way with words. Instead of QQ, I read an actual issue that I can agree with.
Jaruslothran, if instead of accusing every premade group ever created of being in here just to ruin everyone else's day, how about you try and not alienate people right off the bat.
Once again, you have read into something that I have not said. But that is ok.
You can't grasp what I wrote. I blame either genetics or the educational system.
Don't worry.. I don't really blame you.
Also one of Matt's solutions is the same as I have suggested... which you still have missed...but others on this posting have understood.
Sigh
He's actually for what you and I want Ipigi, you just are reading something different from his post.
Only thing I noticed is how rapidly resort to personal insults when your point of view is threatened. What do you know of my education level or my lineage?
You made your point of view clear from the start, in both this thread and in the name the player thread. You think premade groups are a plague that ruin the game for everyone.
Yes. I was laying out a scenario using real world sports to try to relate to those against dividing the pvp queues in this way. You can't have a pro football team take on the guys in the park and expect them to want to participate any more.
That is all... it is not complex.
Premades get to fight other Premades and have more real challenges and fun
Pugs get to fight Pugs and have more fun too
What is the downside to this?
Wrong again. Read previous post. You are not good at this.
I am extrapolating your educational level because your reading comprehension is miserable.