Oh and thank you Sevenblade for showing the reletive "path to 2409" segments and putting them in proper context. Its nice to know people are using the actual game back story to help interpret what is likely to happen in the game.;)
I can see how that could be the case. To me, I see it more parallel to real life politics, where allies oppose the actions of other countries, but it never is a prelude to conflict. US and French relations for example, or even relations with Israel.
So I do not see the situations described in the 'Path' stories creating such an urgency that the task force dissolution is an obvious step.
Again, I maintain that it could be argued reasonably either way --- again the Irony of the parallel of Starfleet vs. Anika, and our division on the forums.
I can see how that could be the case. To me, I see it more parallel to real life politics, where allies oppose the actions of other countries, but it never is a prelude to conflict. US and French relations for example, or even relations with Israel.
So I do not see the situations described in the 'Path' stories creating such an urgency that the task force dissolution is an obvious step.
Again, I maintain that it could be argued reasonably either way --- again the Irony of the parallel of Starfleet vs. Anika, and our division on the forums.
I think no matter what this game is gonna be great and its nice to see people who really appreciate star trek and are not afraid or expressing themselves. I apologize for overreacting and I hope this game really meets up to all our expectations. Hey who knows when the game comes out me, you, sevenblade, and zombie could be killing borg together.:cool:
Incase anyone missed it (no idea if it's been posted here or not) here's alivet (she wrote the log and possibly future stuff as well?): http://www.champions-online.com/node/15272
I think no matter what this game is gonna be great and its nice to see people who really appreciate star trek and are not afraid or expressing themselves. I apologize for overreacting and I hope this game really meets up to all our expectations. Hey who knows when the game comes out me, you, sevenblade, and zombie could be killing borg together.:cool:
I agree. No worries from me as I did not think any responses were out of line.
I think the diversity of opinions is a good sign with the fiction -- meaning the fiction might actually be written 'Grey', rather than Black/White -- which means it is open to various interpretations, and hopefully means there will a few different 'paths' with in the game.
I can see how that could be the case. To me, I see it more parallel to real life politics, where allies oppose the actions of other countries, but it never is a prelude to conflict. US and French relations for example, or even relations with Israel.
So I do not see the situations described in the 'Path' stories creating such an urgency that the task force dissolution is an obvious step.
Again, I maintain that it could be argued reasonably either way --- again the Irony of the parallel of Starfleet vs. Anika, and our division on the forums.
No problem. And I get what you're saying here, and for the most part it makes sense/parallels the situation, but then again, the French never kicked U.S. citizens off French soil when they condemned us for invading Iraq. That the Klingons did that could definitely be a prelude to conflict. So yeah, it's a similar situation, but different in terms of severity. The Klingon/Federation tensions are definitely much higher than a general disapproval from the French lol.
And remember, I wasn't ever really disagreeing with you entirely. Mostly I was arguing for the sake of posters like dr. watson on page 7 who stated that Cryptic's version of the timeline didn't make sense or fit with accepted Star Trek history. I was trying to challenge this very limited viewpoint.
But yeah, it could be argued either way, and I thought you actually did a very good job in defending your position. I agree with a good many more parts than my stance made it seem lol. Especially since your posts including very good reasons about why the Federation shouldn't forget about the Borg, which will probably come back to bite them, if the trailer is any indication.
I have to thank you, actually, for giving me such a good verbal sparring:);). Every time I find someone who is willing to have this in-depth of a discussion and present their opinions logically, calmly, and back them up with facts, I get back just a little bit more faith in the population of this forum, and maybe (though this could be stretching it) the Internet/people in general.
Been a Trekkie since I was 6 and ST TNG premiered - that got me into the TOS and DS9 and VOY as it was released.
ENT was disappointing, there were good eps and story ideas, but it just fell through on overall delivery and I wanted to see the Earth-Rom War! Also the tech for the era was all over the place - I wanted gritty, hard as nails, pioneering feel to the tech - I wanted lasers, nukes, Point defense, no shields - with only the Vulcans being 'advanced' as the elder race of the era.
I've been reading over the story prequels and articles of STOnline now, and everything is cool, except it seems endemic that writers want the Federation to shoot itself in the foot. The interview with Anika Hansen(7of9) summed it up neatly. How many more lessons does the UFP need that 'Utopia' cannot be achieved and maintained without the 'power' to protect it?
'Oh the Borg has not been seen in seven years, they're gone, so lets just dismantle the task force whose sole job it is to protect our butts from being assimilated.' It seems 'stupidity' cough, cough Necheyev cough, is still as common in the 24/25th Centuries as it is in the 21st. Maybe Q needs to pop up and give the NextGen a lesson again.
I've been reading over the story prequels and articles of STOnline now, and everything is cool, except it seems endemic that writers want the Federation to shoot itself in the foot. The interview with Anika Hansen(7of9) summed it up neatly. How many more lessons does the UFP need that 'Utopia' cannot be achieved and maintained without the 'power' to protect it?
One wouldn't want the Federation to be presented as infallible. I appreciate this element of the story as a representation of the kind of political differences and competing priorities that exist in a complex society and its military, and as a mark of the story's depth.
I agree that their is an illogical nature of humans and even the Feds of 23rd century and on. However, in my opinion, that is what gives humans their charm.
I agree that their is an illogical nature of humans and even the Feds of 23rd century and on. However, in my opinion, that is what gives humans their charm.
Yeah, to get somewhat serious for a moment, you can't have it set up so that the Fed is doing everything perfectly. There has to be conflict and captains making up for deficiencies of their faction. That makes each captain feel much more epic.
That, and it would probably feel much worse to fail as a SF Captain if SF was built up to be infallible.
I'm an outsider here so I can't help but look at what Star Trek is compared to all of the other settings I've researched in my years as a roleplayer.
There's really nothing like the Federation anywhere else. You want gritty politics and treachery? Sure, there have been episodes of even TNG or DS9 that looked at internal moral and strategic failings in The Federation. The Romulans especially but also the Klingons, Ferengi and Cardassians among others are motivated by generally more real politik and less idealistic motives.
However the uniqueness is that The Federation knows better. The one thing you think when you see them fall down is "They should be ashamed of themselves, they know better than this." There's an underlaying ideal of The Federation that produced people like Picard who, later, end up having to sometimes hold a mirror to it and remind it of what it stands for.
There's something very comforting and inspiring in this vision, realistic or not, to many people. If Star Trek was really just action-adventure and shoot 'em ups and the Federation was a morally compromised, byzantine, web of murky self-interested ethically lapsed manipulators would it really have the following it does? I don't think so.
There's nothing else quite like it out there.
If you want to see the "other side" of what The Federation could be I'd recommend looking at The Alliance in Firefly. Kind, benevolent on the surface but steely, manipulative and self-interested when necessary at the core. I'm looking forward to a Firefly MMO one day too, believe me, I like the gritty swashbuckling thing in a big way.
But that's not what I want here. I can get that elsewhere. The Federation and its ideals are unique and I'll never see that anywhere else but STO. Let's do it right.
I actually think it's smart from the Federation's point of view to temporarily dismantle the Borg taskforce. However, I believe it would be prudent to have some uber-long range scouts keeping tabs on the Borg just in case. But to pour tons of resources into defending against a threat that will return at an unknown time isn't exactly the best use of resources.
Imagine the scenario in which the Federation keeps the Borg taskforce. High amounts of military spending for a prolonged period of time is what leads to the downfall of great civilizations. The Borg are smart, and probably have their eyes on the Federation. All the Borg have to do in this scenario is wait for the Federation to collapse (or even just hiccup) due to their military spending and then invade.
I believe that the best attribute of a civilization's military is not how well it can fight at all times, but how swiftly it can move from a peacetime footing to a wartime footing. So I applaude the Federation for focusing more on science and exploration during this relatively peaceful time. I just hope it can switch back to a war setting fast when the time comes.
I'm an outsider here so I can't help but look at what Star Trek is compared to all of the other settings I've researched in my years as a roleplayer.
There's really nothing like the Federation anywhere else. You want gritty politics and treachery? Sure, there have been episodes of even TNG or DS9 that looked at internal moral and strategic failings in The Federation. The Romulans especially but also the Klingons, Ferengi and Cardassians among others are motivated by generally more real politik and less idealistic motives.
However the uniqueness is that The Federation knows better. The one thing you think when you see them fall down is "They should be ashamed of themselves, they know better than this." There's an underlaying ideal of The Federation that produced people like Picard who, later, end up having to sometimes hold a mirror to it and remind it of what it stands for.
There's something very comforting and inspiring in this vision, realistic or not, to many people. If Star Trek was really just action-adventure and shoot 'em ups and the Federation was a morally compromised, byzantine, web of murky self-interested ethically lapsed manipulators would it really have the following it does? I don't think so.
There's nothing else quite like it out there.
If you want to see the "other side" of what The Federation could be I'd recommend looking at The Alliance in Firefly. Kind, benevolent on the surface but steely, manipulative and self-interested when necessary at the core. I'm looking forward to a Firefly MMO one day too, believe me, I like the gritty swashbuckling thing in a big way.
But that's not what I want here. I can get that elsewhere. The Federation and its ideals are unique and I'll never see that anywhere else but STO. Let's do it right.
all of this can be summed up by the man who can say it the best
"I have nothing but admiration for this silly race of ours. Even with the Hitlers in it and so on. Sometimes it goes into ugliness, but, in all though, it is a beauty. It's like a rose, which also has thorns. We're something."
- Eugene Wesley Roddenberry, from personal conversations with Gene in 1990 at La Costa, CA
Very Interesting read!!! I enjoy reading the regular Paths, and I also like reading the Supplemental Logs--and this one is really good!
Do you remain in contact with Captain Chakotay?
Im afraid I do not see the relevance of your question.
Please, humor me.
Naturally, I remain in contact with most of the crewmembers from Voyager. We all spent a great deal of time together and remain close.
I think the reporter there somehow heard about the Chakotay/Seven of Nine Romance that was going on just before Voyager came home, and was going for a little bit of a Tabloid Approach by asking about it in an indirect way. However, she shot that attempt down in a major big hurry!
I think we all know that the Borg are still a threat and always will be until we know they have been destroyed!! Annika's work at the Daystrom Institute will help a lot when we next meet the Borg but how can Starfleet not have a fleet ready for them! All I know is my ship will be as ready as it can be.
I'm with you there!!!! In fact, I intend to have Transphasic Torpedoes as Standard Armament on ALL of my ships!!! Along with a little something I call the Main Deflector Cannon--which will be a potent weapon not just against the Borg, but also against any kind of enemy!!!
_______________________________________________________________________________________
maybe in path to 2388 chakotay and seven get married. maybe. or much cooler if she dated data. nah, that would never work out. never know.....
ya know if someone can figure an average time between path to....(like 2 a month or so)they can roughly figure the release date out.....
i want someone to try to figure out the release date(i suck at math)
"What would you do?"
- Riker addressing Picard's empty chair in the ready room
(Best of Both Worlds Part ll)
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.'
Wait, how would studying the technological applications of any powerful piece of equipment be short term?
The problem that Hansen mentions, and I quite agree with, is that Starfleet is allowing its current desire for technologies such as the Mobile Emitter to override good, long-term planning. Just as Data had to fight to not be forcably dismantled for study, the Doctor has to fight for his rights as a sentient being. Starfleet is seeing a technology they want, and without regards for the possibility of hurting people (i.e. The Doctor) they are hurting the moral framework of the Federation, to seek out new life.
Is the Federation's myopia (to use the word Hansen did) so great that they cannot ask the question "Should we assume non-organic life forms are not people" before they start limiting the rights of those individuals?
Its dangerous! If we (humanity) cannot empathize with the Doctor, who actually looks and sounds like us, then I fear for our collective ability to recognize and respect life that is vastly different (Species 8472, for starters).
This is very interesting. I look forward to hearing more about characters in the Star Trek Universe and what they are doing now. Star Fleet is foolish to not think the Borg is not a threat.
Comments
I can see how that could be the case. To me, I see it more parallel to real life politics, where allies oppose the actions of other countries, but it never is a prelude to conflict. US and French relations for example, or even relations with Israel.
So I do not see the situations described in the 'Path' stories creating such an urgency that the task force dissolution is an obvious step.
Again, I maintain that it could be argued reasonably either way --- again the Irony of the parallel of Starfleet vs. Anika, and our division on the forums.
I think no matter what this game is gonna be great and its nice to see people who really appreciate star trek and are not afraid or expressing themselves. I apologize for overreacting and I hope this game really meets up to all our expectations. Hey who knows when the game comes out me, you, sevenblade, and zombie could be killing borg together.:cool:
I agree. No worries from me as I did not think any responses were out of line.
I think the diversity of opinions is a good sign with the fiction -- meaning the fiction might actually be written 'Grey', rather than Black/White -- which means it is open to various interpretations, and hopefully means there will a few different 'paths' with in the game.
No problem. And I get what you're saying here, and for the most part it makes sense/parallels the situation, but then again, the French never kicked U.S. citizens off French soil when they condemned us for invading Iraq. That the Klingons did that could definitely be a prelude to conflict. So yeah, it's a similar situation, but different in terms of severity. The Klingon/Federation tensions are definitely much higher than a general disapproval from the French lol.
And remember, I wasn't ever really disagreeing with you entirely. Mostly I was arguing for the sake of posters like dr. watson on page 7 who stated that Cryptic's version of the timeline didn't make sense or fit with accepted Star Trek history. I was trying to challenge this very limited viewpoint.
But yeah, it could be argued either way, and I thought you actually did a very good job in defending your position. I agree with a good many more parts than my stance made it seem lol. Especially since your posts including very good reasons about why the Federation shouldn't forget about the Borg, which will probably come back to bite them, if the trailer is any indication.
I have to thank you, actually, for giving me such a good verbal sparring:);). Every time I find someone who is willing to have this in-depth of a discussion and present their opinions logically, calmly, and back them up with facts, I get back just a little bit more faith in the population of this forum, and maybe (though this could be stretching it) the Internet/people in general.
Been a Trekkie since I was 6 and ST TNG premiered - that got me into the TOS and DS9 and VOY as it was released.
ENT was disappointing, there were good eps and story ideas, but it just fell through on overall delivery and I wanted to see the Earth-Rom War! Also the tech for the era was all over the place - I wanted gritty, hard as nails, pioneering feel to the tech - I wanted lasers, nukes, Point defense, no shields - with only the Vulcans being 'advanced' as the elder race of the era.
I've been reading over the story prequels and articles of STOnline now, and everything is cool, except it seems endemic that writers want the Federation to shoot itself in the foot. The interview with Anika Hansen(7of9) summed it up neatly. How many more lessons does the UFP need that 'Utopia' cannot be achieved and maintained without the 'power' to protect it?
'Oh the Borg has not been seen in seven years, they're gone, so lets just dismantle the task force whose sole job it is to protect our butts from being assimilated.' It seems 'stupidity' cough, cough Necheyev cough, is still as common in the 24/25th Centuries as it is in the 21st. Maybe Q needs to pop up and give the NextGen a lesson again.
See ya.
See ya.
One wouldn't want the Federation to be presented as infallible. I appreciate this element of the story as a representation of the kind of political differences and competing priorities that exist in a complex society and its military, and as a mark of the story's depth.
Im not sure if there was a pun there or not. But I laughed out loud anyways. Thanks for that.
Yeah, to get somewhat serious for a moment, you can't have it set up so that the Fed is doing everything perfectly. There has to be conflict and captains making up for deficiencies of their faction. That makes each captain feel much more epic.
That, and it would probably feel much worse to fail as a SF Captain if SF was built up to be infallible.
There's really nothing like the Federation anywhere else. You want gritty politics and treachery? Sure, there have been episodes of even TNG or DS9 that looked at internal moral and strategic failings in The Federation. The Romulans especially but also the Klingons, Ferengi and Cardassians among others are motivated by generally more real politik and less idealistic motives.
However the uniqueness is that The Federation knows better. The one thing you think when you see them fall down is "They should be ashamed of themselves, they know better than this." There's an underlaying ideal of The Federation that produced people like Picard who, later, end up having to sometimes hold a mirror to it and remind it of what it stands for.
There's something very comforting and inspiring in this vision, realistic or not, to many people. If Star Trek was really just action-adventure and shoot 'em ups and the Federation was a morally compromised, byzantine, web of murky self-interested ethically lapsed manipulators would it really have the following it does? I don't think so.
There's nothing else quite like it out there.
If you want to see the "other side" of what The Federation could be I'd recommend looking at The Alliance in Firefly. Kind, benevolent on the surface but steely, manipulative and self-interested when necessary at the core. I'm looking forward to a Firefly MMO one day too, believe me, I like the gritty swashbuckling thing in a big way.
But that's not what I want here. I can get that elsewhere. The Federation and its ideals are unique and I'll never see that anywhere else but STO. Let's do it right.
Imagine the scenario in which the Federation keeps the Borg taskforce. High amounts of military spending for a prolonged period of time is what leads to the downfall of great civilizations. The Borg are smart, and probably have their eyes on the Federation. All the Borg have to do in this scenario is wait for the Federation to collapse (or even just hiccup) due to their military spending and then invade.
I believe that the best attribute of a civilization's military is not how well it can fight at all times, but how swiftly it can move from a peacetime footing to a wartime footing. So I applaude the Federation for focusing more on science and exploration during this relatively peaceful time. I just hope it can switch back to a war setting fast when the time comes.
all of this can be summed up by the man who can say it the best
"I have nothing but admiration for this silly race of ours. Even with the Hitlers in it and so on. Sometimes it goes into ugliness, but, in all though, it is a beauty. It's like a rose, which also has thorns. We're something."
- Eugene Wesley Roddenberry, from personal conversations with Gene in 1990 at La Costa, CA
I think the reporter there somehow heard about the Chakotay/Seven of Nine Romance that was going on just before Voyager came home, and was going for a little bit of a Tabloid Approach by asking about it in an indirect way. However, she shot that attempt down in a major big hurry!
I'm with you there!!!! In fact, I intend to have Transphasic Torpedoes as Standard Armament on ALL of my ships!!! Along with a little something I call the Main Deflector Cannon--which will be a potent weapon not just against the Borg, but also against any kind of enemy!!!
_______________________________________________________________________________________
"Kira Yamato!! Freedom!! Let's do it!!!!!"
ya know if someone can figure an average time between path to....(like 2 a month or so)they can roughly figure the release date out.....
i want someone to try to figure out the release date(i suck at math)
"What would you do?"
- Riker addressing Picard's empty chair in the ready room
(Best of Both Worlds Part ll)
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.'
-Theodore Roosevelt
The problem that Hansen mentions, and I quite agree with, is that Starfleet is allowing its current desire for technologies such as the Mobile Emitter to override good, long-term planning. Just as Data had to fight to not be forcably dismantled for study, the Doctor has to fight for his rights as a sentient being. Starfleet is seeing a technology they want, and without regards for the possibility of hurting people (i.e. The Doctor) they are hurting the moral framework of the Federation, to seek out new life.
Is the Federation's myopia (to use the word Hansen did) so great that they cannot ask the question "Should we assume non-organic life forms are not people" before they start limiting the rights of those individuals?
Its dangerous! If we (humanity) cannot empathize with the Doctor, who actually looks and sounds like us, then I fear for our collective ability to recognize and respect life that is vastly different (Species 8472, for starters).