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Two things i would like to be added
gatsp33d
Member Posts: 2 Arc User
first i would like if the romulan bridge officers that we can recruit could use the full romulan republic costume set and the full starfleet romulan costume set or kdf romulan costume set based on whether you are starfleet or kdf.
second with this new token that lets you change your species can all of the premium species get an extra trait slot on top of what they have so alien is not the best to choose from.
second with this new token that lets you change your species can all of the premium species get an extra trait slot on top of what they have so alien is not the best to choose from.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Extra trait slots already come with the elite captain upgrade. It doesn't need to be incorporated into the species/gender change system (as it forces a shift to unlock a feature that players may well not want to bother with as it alters their character's identity and forces you to rebuild all their costumes).
Moreover, simply giving everyone else a choice of slot would then make Alien the inferior choice (as everyone else gets a unique species trait or two AND the slot). Eg. you're just inverting the problem. What you would need to do is open up the trait slot and make all previously locked species traits freely slottable to their species, and in return for aliens losing their USP, give them a couple unique traits emphasizing their flexibility (ex. general stat buff similar to Veteran or Space Warfare specialist). Personally I'm fine with the system as species traits are (largely) marginal in effect and you can easily fit all the exceptions within a species regular pool of slots. You can fixate on not having as much min-maxed flexibility, but in real gameplay terms you're very likely looking at performance differences beyond the perceptible range of human experience.
Also, as you were corrected this isn't Foundry material. The Foundry was a UGC creation tool pulled from the game because it increasingly did not work with STO as it was updated over time. Please respect the memorial/archive that is the Foundry subforum and not post random stuff there. And in general, look before you leap.
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I like the suggestion of giving premium species (or perhaps all of them) an additional slot. Maybe at launch it made sense to give Aliens that additional slot because they didn't get a species-specific one.
But now there are traits that are so much more powerful, that it's made the rest of the species sub-optimal choices, if we ignore the roleplay-element for a moment.
Besides, I would argue that the increased flexibility in the tailor for Aliens is already interesting enough. No need to let them keep another huge advantage in terms of performance. I think it's time to change it. Other species are sacrificing both a trait slot (to get, in most cases, a rather uninteresting one in return) and get limited flexibility in the tailor, removing one of these would be an improvement.
That I think isn't something we can do. Player continuously ask for things like FED Orion because for whatever we can replicate in alien, the species tag not being present is a MAJOR factor in player headspace. FED Klingon is sold for premium currency despite the fact that Klingon is fully replicable in alien-gen but for a few more recent KDF additions. If players want to play a human, I think it's exceedingly unlikely they'll opt for alien unless they've invested in the end-game to the point where having that extra slot makes a meaningful difference (not only having *some* loot box traits that outperform regular species traits but having more than 10. Eg. reach the 1% of 1% veterans (who are overrepresented in places like this because of complimentary selection bias in frequent posting to forums).
Calling this a huge performance advantage I also think is hugely overstating the differences and setting a very particular view of "species worth" (eg this incredibly marginal, hyper end-game dependent, view of trait selection) is quite liable to be elite projection. It may matter to some players (for which the alien option will be freely available as a swap choice if this niche gameplay need overrules role playing) but it's overwriting the interests of others to say this matters to the vast, vast majority of the population (who do not engage with top end builds to the point where an 11th personal trait slot becomes impactful to real experience, though even then it likely requires a parser to notice).
And if you're going to argue that this performance differential matters, then for consistency you need to act in compensation and give Aliens unique traits of their own if you revamp how trait selection works for other species. As then you just invert this discussion, handwaving matters of role playing for fixated stat differentials (identically) and kicking the can down the road exactly one pace. Progress isn't just about flip flopping haves/have nots. If you're going to invest the dev time, make sure it's equitable from the get-go per the value set you used to justify the decision in the first place.
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Realistically there's no real advantage in playing one species over another. They all have something unique to them. Alien happens to have an extra trait slot for further customization.
And you really can't ignore the RP elements because like what was said above, if you make an Alien look like an Orion, in your head that is not just an "alien" that is a legit Orion and you will play it that way. Same for people who made Alien Cardassians before Cardassians were playable. And Alien is probably the closest we'll ever get to any kind of shapeshifter species, but again it would only be from an RP perspective as there are no shape changing abilities other than maybe a Kit Module from Lower Decks.
People will play their characters how they want to play them regardless of the species of their "alien".
Now can we get some variation of some of the options from Champions ported over and polished up? I wouldn't mind making a Kitsune.
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I'd think we'd hear a certain player's reaction from space if we got that..
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Yup
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I think that you're in fact over-estimating the importance of roleplaying. The reality is that most players look at performance first, roleplaying generally comes second.
The fact that Aliens get an additional trait slot, is quite important then. It's probably also why you can see Aliens walking around in-game, who look exactly like an Andorian.
Besides all that, the 11th trait slot isn't just interesting to DPS'ers or people interested in having top end builds. The average player who struggles to do well in even normal type content will probably benefit much more from having an additional trait slot.
As for compensating Aliens if they lose their advantage in terms of trait slots: I don't think it's needed. As noted, they already get a huge advantage in the tailor, with much more flexibility.
Ideally, Aliens are picked for the roleplay element - because someone wants to create their own species or wants that tailor freedom. There's no need for them to outperform all other species by having one more trait slot. It should be the go-to option if you want to implement your own ideas for a certain species, not be the equivalent of TAC captains' APA being more interesting than Sensor Scan, resulting in many players picking that career simply because it performs better. Performance matters to many players (as also indicated by that example I guess), hence why one species shouldn't outshine all others in that regard.
We also see folks continuously ask for FED Orions even though this is replicable with Alien. Between performance and role playing there's a simple way of breaking this out: when does an 11th trait slot start mattering to builds? There's no conceivable argument that this starts anywhere near early, mid, or reasonably well into the end-game experience because it's contingent on amassing 10 great traits and caring about the 11th slot (and preferring, for reasons of RP, not to use an alien at present). That point may never be reached given a players habits, investment, and inclinations. You can insist otherwise but laying out the facts, it's a VERY select circumstances to which any probability estimate will say "it's unlikely."
Compare that to species choice and getting a feel for your character. You know when that can hit? Day one, minute one, of a player's starting experience. We can compare personal anecdotes all day but there's no mechanism behind the argument that the 11th trait slots and accompanying stat considerations matters more than role playing. Which matters in trying to decide with the barest objectivity which is the more pressing population concern. You can't just take what you notice, and feel is right, and assume that as the correct path here. As that is hugely liable to the aforementioned Elite Projection problem.
And I don't think other species losing their advantage in terms of trait slots currently matters because they already get a huge advantage in their ease of role playing as those canon species, including some bespoke options not available to alien-gen. See. additional facial features for Klingon or Romulan tattoos. Eg. if you're going to take the position that stats matter to the nth degree, necessary to call for a sizable system update, it seems to me insincere to say you don't need to do anything for aliens because their RP is a comparable advantage. Pick a lane and act accordingly. If you're going to assume the dev time required to revamp how traits work for all species is something we can do, it's a drop in the bucket to add a unique option or two for aliens, even among existing generalist traits (ex. Space Warfare Specialist).
Ie. it's a false premise to pose that the aliens need to lose something here to get this update out the door (as that assumes an incredibly fine balance of unknowable available dev time, enough for the big update but not the tiny), and it shows that you're willing to compromise on a stated value. In which case: why isn't the current compromise fine? Why bother with the dev time required if you're just shifting the particulars of how this system is imbalanced, giving free fodder to future threads to come back to the same problem after the update?
The role playing benefit of alien is also traded off in the lack of codification. Eg. you already have trade offs at play when it comes to customization. Invoking them for stats is not reasonable. As stated, pick a lane. If RP matters, go with RP. If stats matters, then even within existing species options there are "correct" and "incorrect" choices for picking a correct species. Aliens aside, I shouldn't be "forced" to pick a Romulan if I want an assumed "optimal" stats experience, by your reasoning. Remove the alien "advantage" and you've just shifted the species with the best default traits as the clearest mechanical choice (because it will help across the time required to amass 11 other best in slot traits over SRO.) Fix Romulans and next Nausicaans, Saurians, Liberated Borg become the "best" choice. In with the new boss, same as the old boss. What'll help: deciding what actually matters to you, role playing or stats. Because the two provide different considerations on starting experiences and will *inevitably* lead to different decisions based on priorities.
To make species truly agnostic of stats, you need to *abolish* species traits and replace them with the alien's slot. Which notably isn't what's being asked (as priorities are being mixed without resolution, which will find other alternatives first).
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(Emphasis added)
Yes, that's what you think. My point, backed up with evidence from inside the game *, is that greater ease-of-roleplaying for non-Alien species is hardly an advantage because roleplaying is (compared with performance) not as important to the overall majority of players as it seems to be for you.
I mean, it's quite funny that you suggest that I'm biased.
As for the lane-picking: I've already picked one. I explained that Aliens currently have two comparative advantages, something no other species gets, therefore it's reasonable to reduce this to only one: the roleplaying advantage.
Why would they need to be compensated for the loss of one advantage if they're going to maintain the other one and have in fact been enjoying two advantages for years now? It's basically correcting what I - and others - consider unfair advantages that make other options less interesting.
Players interested primarily in performance would benefit, players who are primarily interested in roleplaying shouldn't have to worry that others are getting an option to boost their performance. What's even the problem here? Cause I honestly don't see it.
* Which you didn't really address as you ignored the skewed distribution of careers being picked.
And DSC Andorians being requested doesn't refute my point that performance matters more to many. SF 2409 captains are playing Alien-Andorians because they can perform better with the additional trait slot. DSC Andorians are requested because the option for Andorians isn't available at all for that faction. The (probably role-)players requesting Andorians for the relatively small DSC faction are, likely, different players than those playing 2409 Alien-Andorians.
As much as I don't consider it a necessity, I'll happily support it if I think it's a good suggestion.
That's just inserting a value set into the equation. The two are different, and deciding one category is an advantage or not is projection as a judgement is literally being applied to say which separate facet is better, the apple or the orange. You are, in fact, biased in your reasoning as you're interpreting this dynamic through the lens of personal priority, without asking how they could organically develop in other players (and when, and to what extent given clearly stated conditional probabilities.) It's a personal judgement call, and thus inevitably carries with it your biases. You are not an omniscient robot god and your judgements should not be assumed to be unbiased by default (such that you object to the mere thought bias could be at play). This is made without value judgement, and is simply describing your behavior and the problems posed. I am simply drawing attention to where consternation is arising (and thus can be most effectively solved...to which a hefty number of Trek episodes provide great models for how personal reconciliation can sometimes solve major extrinsic conflicts folks initially took at face value).
If you picked a lane and decided characters per a clear sense of what matters to you, the choice of species isn't contentious. Even with the current alien "problem," the flexibility in making the "correct" stat choice so freely flexible to RP means you can chose that option and make nearly any character you want. You sacrifice less in playing to both priority sets than if the "correct" stats choice was literally any other species (ex. Romulan, Cardassian, or Nausicaan). Where there's an issue is having this flexibility WITHOUT a codified species tag, which tells me that this facet of RP deeply matters to you. As it's the ontogenetic path to arrive at your argument, and find existing alternatives unacceptable. Alien being "good" to both forms of min-maxing is *already* a neat compromise choice to lessen conflict between mindsets. Where one creates conflict is by inflating the drawbacks to alien for RP (lack of codification) and frame that in a stats context. Being able to create a stat-optimal Bolian in all but name isn't enough. You need the label, combined with the stat optimization (in roughly equal measure) to satisfy.
You're here because you have a conflicted view of what matters most, as two separate facets of the game have been forced into a single model where not having a codified species tag makes having a flexible default for stat-focused players unappealing. Eg. not every frustration found with the game is something that the game is at fault for, beyond not making itself so simple that the choice literally doesn't exist in the first place (ex. having only one species option across the entire game). This matters to what suggestion you ultimately advocate for, as finding reconciliation will lead to different perceived needs.
What difference does it make that one species gets advantages in both areas vs. splitting that out between two species? Especially when the current choice provides the most accommodation to combined RP and stat interests? Take the Romulan example. If players are "forced" to make a stats based decision for their characters, then within codified species we already have one that provides a clear advantage per most impactful stats. Remove the alien advantage and Romulan comes back to prominence for more easily filling the extra slot over a player's career. The identity of the species has no impact to the problems cited. You can make the same cry, why is the game forcing me to pick this species for the stats when I want to RP something else, when one poses some mechanical advantage per species stats. Which is just a statement for not having picked a lane, straddling priority sets and bouncing between them, unable to find happy resolution. The RP mindset will pick a human character. The stat mindset will create one out of an alien. Each without issue. And even if you want to play as a stat optimal Caitian, a stat minded player could see the disadvantage as a motivating influence to make the most of a build despite the handicap. See. playing an RPG for challenge (however incremental) rather than seeking every silver platter available (as with an abundance of silver platters for your starting build, is what you accomplish a matter of your given advantages or the skills exhibited in build crafting and gameplay?) which only a subset of performance minded players will see as undesirable. To feel fervently that something here needs to change, you need a very careful mix of priorities.
Eg. it's not a game design problem, as no matter what Cryptic does to balance specific species your stated issue remains. The only way to wholly decouple traits and species is to abolish all differences between them (thus removing the stat mindset from RPG species selection...which isn't great as jumping to species you wouldn't otherwise play at for the stats archetype is a valid mindset to approach the game with. See. encouraging unusual decisions through game design, with some players value as much as you do optimization in species choices). Which again, isn't the topic of this thread. Another solution was posed, which doesn't address the dichotomy between species choices for RP and stats. They interact. If a suggestion leaves that interaction intact, the problem remains.
So you can advocate for the removal of all species differences (which is perfectly fine) or treat issues of one field (stats) independent of another (RP) with whatever interaction between them being incidental. Ex. revamping how species traits work mechanically with respect to occupied trait slots, while (from that stats mindset) compensating for aliens having their USP nerfed. Whatever value the species is to RP is a separate topic (with the appeals/disadvantages resonating differently between players interests/biases, and assuming one side is paramount to the other is simply projection as there's no available data or developmental model to split them by.) The problem arises from picking the wrong suggestion to stated needs, as you and likeminded players will be unsatisfied with the output despite calling for the change (thus, why bother? If we're going to do this, let's actually solve an issue, one way or the other).
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A lot of the 'alien tab Andorians' are not Andorians as such, many of them are Aenar or Aenar/Andorian hybrids (the hybrid shown in ENT has a greenish cast to her skin instead of the usual blue, and they are seen in social areas of the game reasonably often), and some are something entirely different that have Andorian antennae because they are the only antennae available in the game.
And yes, some of them are minmaxers who think that trading the equivalent of several "lesser" traits for one incredibly expensive "meta" trait is a great idea, never mind that taking full advantage of that idea requires spending billions of EC buying enough of those meta traits to make a significant difference DPS wise.
Thing is, probably not many out of the game's population make everything with 'alien' just to get one more empty slot since there are an amazing number of people who don't even know you can buy an extra trait slot at Fleet Research station, let alone actually buy it, and unless they do buy that last possible slot then the traits that are standard for that race being baked in is not an issue yet since they are still leaving one empty, if locked.
A lot of the people asking for Fed side Orions are probably doing so for the traditional Orion outfits as much as anything else, though their pheromone attack is rather nice too, that and the vague hope that maybe sometime down the road the scenarios might have custom dialog that recognizes Orions.
Exactly, RP comes first when it comes to creating a character, performance can suck it, why use Alien-Gen to recreate Iconic trek aliens if the traits mattered at all, Have you seen player made Hirogens, Ocampas and Denobulans, if the RP wasn't important, people would've made their own species instead of recreating species from the very shows,
And I got one Alien who I happen to RP as an Orion female who can't seduce. She gets really annoyed about people bringing that up. They generally end up with Neon Pink hair by the end of the day depending on who did it because she's an Engineer who is really good at what she does.
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