Generative ai for npcs

jaymaverick007

Is there any chance we could see this slowly added to new missions or new battle zones?

Here is to hoping. I think it would add more flavor to the game.

angrytarg

Could you elaborate what you mean, exactly?​​

spiritborn

angrytarg wrote: »

Could you elaborate what you mean, exactly?​​

Yeah I'd like to know that's talked about here as "generative AI" is a bit of buzzword and could mean a lot of things, from "maybe possible" to "utterly impossible"

jaymaverick007

This is the quoted description from google. ( artificial intelligence (generative AI) is a type of AI that can create new content and ideas)

jaymaverick007

Also quoted . ( The Role of Generative AI in Gaming:
Instead of following pre-determined scripts, NPCs can now learn from player actions and adapt their behavior accordingly. This technology has the potential to transform the way NPCs interact with players, adding depth and realism to virtual worlds.Oct 7, 2023)

I was thinking
generative ai for npcs in new battle zones or missions. Maybe opened up deep space for Star Trek’s intended purpose of learning and exploration. Maybe they could implement generative ai to create a deep space sector block that is ever changing and manages its self and create its own unique events missions and dangers that traveling players could encounter and experience. With more interactive contacts, npcs and npcs ships.

Npcs ships that let you defeat them in other manners such as they retreat, they surrender or ram their ship into yours or self destruct.


They could even give an over seeing ai control over space weather ion stoms , nebula, mysteries aliens that try to capture you, and other star trek related space phenomena . Deep space encounters,That makes you question or tactically fly your ship

spiritborn

Ah so the utterly impossible version then

jaymaverick007

I have no idea . That is why I posted it. There is another game Futurable that has every npc generative ai so i was thinking it’d be possible for sto to have 1 or 2 depending upon how it is implemented

inferiority

We already had this kind of feature in the game *cough* exploration clusters *cough* and it worked quite well, if a little repetitive.

Star Cluster maps are no longer available to access for all factions.

It was removed some time ago because it was felt their quality wasn't up to the current game standard.
They were actually quite fun and gave you a seemingly randomly generated mission to run.

leemwatson

jaymaverick007 wrote: »

Also quoted . ( The Role of Generative AI in Gaming:
Instead of following pre-determined scripts, NPCs can now learn from player actions and adapt their behavior accordingly. This technology has the potential to transform the way NPCs interact with players, adding depth and realism to virtual worlds.Oct 7, 2023)

I was thinking
generative ai for npcs in new battle zones or missions. Maybe opened up deep space for Star Trek’s intended purpose of learning and exploration. Maybe they could implement generative ai to create a deep space sector block that is ever changing and manages its self and create its own unique events missions and dangers that traveling players could encounter and experience. With more interactive contacts, npcs and npcs ships.

Npcs ships that let you defeat them in other manners such as they retreat, they surrender or ram their ship into yours or self destruct.


They could even give an over seeing ai control over space weather ion stoms , nebula, mysteries aliens that try to capture you, and other star trek related space phenomena . Deep space encounters,That makes you question or tactically fly your ship

You are initially talking about Adaptive, not Generative. Whilst Adaptive AI would be fun, it wouldn't make it past the first month because it would then become 'too hard' for certain players.

Generative AI creates content, and unless it's extremely tightly controlled, it will quick fall into the dubious territory of infringement and plagiarism. AI isn't that great at the moment, but creating new worlds isn't something new; 'procedural generation' has been used in alot of games and is something we've been asking for for years.

At the end, it's cost and time vs player platform specs. It's unlikely we will see this happen, because it may impact on too many people.

fleetcaptain5

jaymaverick007 wrote: »

Also quoted . ( The Role of Generative AI in Gaming:
Instead of following pre-determined scripts, NPCs can now learn from player actions and adapt their behavior accordingly. This technology has the potential to transform the way NPCs interact with players, adding depth and realism to virtual worlds.Oct 7, 2023)

I was thinking
generative ai for npcs in new battle zones or missions. Maybe opened up deep space for Star Trek’s intended purpose of learning and exploration. Maybe they could implement generative ai to create a deep space sector block that is ever changing and manages its self and create its own unique events missions and dangers that traveling players could encounter and experience. With more interactive contacts, npcs and npcs ships.

Npcs ships that let you defeat them in other manners such as they retreat, they surrender or ram their ship into yours or self destruct.


They could even give an over seeing ai control over space weather ion stoms , nebula, mysteries aliens that try to capture you, and other star trek related space phenomena . Deep space encounters,That makes you question or tactically fly your ship

It all sounds interesting, but it would still need to be programmed. We're not at that point yet where a game can basically develop its own scenario's, these options would still have to be manually added by the devs for now. Since they haven't done that much, it's probably not feasible to do it.

And, personally, I will flat out boycot any content that was created using AI, as I'm not going to support the replacement of art teams and writers (not just on STO, but in a broader social context). These should be human endeavours.

angrytarg

> @fleetcaptain5#1134 said:
> It all sounds interesting, but it would still need to be programmed. We're not at that point yet where a game can basically develop its own scenario's, these options would still have to be manually added by the devs for now. Since they haven't done that much, it's probably not feasible to do it.
>
> And, personally, I will flat out boycot any content that was created using AI, as I'm not going to support the replacement of art teams and writers (not just on STO, but in a broader social context). These should be human endeavours.


The biggest issue creatively with AI is that it doesn't create anything, it cuts real creative work into little pieces and glues it together. It does cannibalise real people's work.

AI is not intelligent, it's a marketing euphemism. It's simply algorithms throwing stuff together. We used to say "hundred thousand monkeys on typewriters will write one great script" - that's what AI is.

spiritborn

The problem with adaptive AI is that they're very good at adapting up but not down and what's average DPS isn't even remotely same as DPS that average player does

pottsey5g

jaymaverick007 wrote: »

Is there any chance we could see this slowly added to new missions or new battle zones?

Here is to hoping. I think it would add more flavor to the game.

Given how many problems Generative AI has, why would anyone want it in game? You want even more broken NPC, missions and battle zones? Generative AI would just make a mess of things.

We used to have Generative AI maps and missions in game a long time ago and they got removed because of all the problems Generative AI has.

baddmoonrizin

STO isn't designed for this anyway. The Genesis system is as close as we had, and it was not the greatest thing, which is why it was removed. This is a pipe dream, best suited for a game that is actually designed around the concept.

sthe91

Please no. I would rather the pathing for BOFFs be fixed than this. I am leery of AI in general.

rattler2

I was there when the Third Borg Dynasty was a thing.

Also enemies spawning underground.

Also doing pretty much ever variation of "Kill 5 enemy groups" or "Scan 5 gubbins", which was pretty much the extent of the detail.

protoneous

jaymaverick007 wrote: »

<Generative AI for NPCs>

Is there any chance we could see this slowly added to new missions or new battle zones?

Here is to hoping. I think it would add more flavor to the game.

Yes, I think it could add more flavor. Things have come a long way since the Genesis system which is based upon old technology. It can be all to easy to fail to embrace the value in new ways of doing things.

It may not have been perfect but the Genesis system did introduce many players to the Borg Dynasty well before they encountered any Borg Queen or King.

I feel the story of the Borg Dynasty could very well be one of the greatest unexplored parts of the game. When combined with new technology that gives players an increased sense of exploration with their starship and crew it's just not possible for me to simply dismiss so much potential with the wave of a hand.

fleetcaptain5

Honestly though, is the Third Borg Dynasty that much worse than Borg King Harry?

jaymaverick007

I was hear for the nebula exploration zones. Im not suggesting a repeat, but having it being used sparingly and creatively. To add flavor to the game especially for end gamers. Adaptive ai could be reset each map and have it reset to a baseline intelligence/level . So it would not continue to evolve beyond an individual mission but the are so many ideas its hard to say where to begin. Even something along the lines of improving our ship interiors and crews into a more realistic environment. The could add more missions related to being on our own ships similar to the shows. Ai would not need to create the missions but could select which senarios to send us and control the npcs which could help interact with players in a more realistic manner

jonsills

Generative "AI" quickly descends into what its creators euphemistically call "hallucinations". It would make the Third Borg Dynasty look like fracking Shakespeare.

I keep reminding people - "Artificial Intelligence" at current technology levels is nothing more than a marketing buzzword. It's predictive text with good PR, like starting a text, hitting the middle suggestion repeatedly, and expecting to write the massively successful sequel to War and Peace.

jaymaverick007

That sounds about right. Too much work , impossible and such at last .

And it could become the terminator when we all look away.

Was just a thought I had which is nothing to worry about. Just thought people that know more than me could figure it out.

Have a good day everyone.

davefenestrator

It never hurts to open a discussion.

Current generative AI and neural nets in general don't think or understand, they are fancy approximation functions. Play with the Bing image generator a bit and you'll see it creates something connected to your keywords but it often misses the point. Not to mention missing the correct number of fingers and toes, arms and legs. If your description is vague and generic enough like "a cat sitting on a couch" it seems like magic because it can spit out any cat and couch it grabbed from other people's photos. Try a more detailed description of a scene and watch it go wrong in strange new ways.

spiritborn

davefenestrator wrote: »

It never hurts to open a discussion.

Current generative AI and neural nets in general don't think or understand, they are fancy approximation functions. Play with the Bing image generator a bit and you'll see it creates something connected to your keywords but it often misses the point. Not to mention missing the correct number of fingers and toes, arms and legs. If your description is vague and generic enough like "a cat sitting on a couch" it seems like magic because it can spit out any cat and couch it grabbed from other people's photos. Try a more detailed description of a scene and watch it go wrong in strange new ways.

I remember that making a dark skinned elf was beyond one such generation tool, it could make an elf or a dark skinned person but combining the two was impossible.

leemwatson

jonsills wrote: »

Generative "AI" quickly descends into what its creators euphemistically call "hallucinations". It would make the Third Borg Dynasty look like fracking Shakespeare.

I keep reminding people - "Artificial Intelligence" at current technology levels is nothing more than a marketing buzzword. It's predictive text with good PR, like starting a text, hitting the middle suggestion repeatedly, and expecting to write the massively successful sequel to War and Peace.

Hallucinations I experienced when I was using a certain 'AI' app to help me find papers for a Research Project I did last year. About a fifth of the papers it said to look at just didn't exist, and it simply couldn't accept they didn't exist even after I followed every possible path to find them. It was only after strictly refining how I defined the parameters for it to search for that it stopped.

vetteguy904

ok y'all are talking cutting edge tech here. you all think that anyone at cryptic has learned the new tech? I can virtually guarantee the answer is no. those who can program that sort of thing are not working for a tiny little company like Cryptic, when the big boys like Bing and google are snapping all the talent up

spiritborn

leemwatson wrote: »

jonsills wrote: »

Generative "AI" quickly descends into what its creators euphemistically call "hallucinations". It would make the Third Borg Dynasty look like fracking Shakespeare.

I keep reminding people - "Artificial Intelligence" at current technology levels is nothing more than a marketing buzzword. It's predictive text with good PR, like starting a text, hitting the middle suggestion repeatedly, and expecting to write the massively successful sequel to War and Peace.

Hallucinations I experienced when I was using a certain 'AI' app to help me find papers for a Research Project I did last year. About a fifth of the papers it said to look at just didn't exist, and it simply couldn't accept they didn't exist even after I followed every possible path to find them. It was only after strictly refining how I defined the parameters for it to search for that it stopped.

Yeah from what I've gathered current AI simply makes up stuff if it can't find what is wanted. It really boils down the fact that these systems don't really understand what is asked, they understand the basic command, but not the why said command is meant to be executed.

So they understand the command "find research papers" but not that those should be valid and usable papers so if the result for the search is "null" (aka no papers were found) the make up a result that it wouldn't look like the system couldn't find any and thus isn't what hype made it up to be, even though those papers are neither valid or usable as they don't exist.

phoenixc

A certain big webstore's automated helper suffers from hallucinations like that. Among other occasional bizarre responses, a recent request for it to play "songs by Neil Diamond and similar artists" resulted in one song by Diamond followed immediately by one from Twisted Sister....

davefenestrator

phoenixc#0738 wrote: »

A certain big webstore's automated helper suffers from hallucinations like that. Among other occasional bizarre responses, a recent request for it to play "songs by Neil Diamond and similar artists" resulted in one song by Diamond followed immediately by one from Twisted Sister....

LOL. Extreme's "More Than Words" or other power ballads maybe, but "We're Not Going to Take It" not so much.