test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Willfully obtuse Tholians

2»

Comments

  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,899 Arc User
    Fair point. I nonetheless think having a genuinely friendly Tholian is a nice touch.

    I heard he's from the IDW Comics, I personally never read any of the Star Trek Comics, so for me, Bright Eyes just comes completely out of left field, I never even heard of this character before this Arc, plus I associate the name "Bright Eyes" more with the Planet of Apes franchise.

    Apparently so.

    I didn't know about the character either until I looked him up at Memory Beta, but immediately recognized him as a popular avatar in sci-fi forums and whatnot in the last few years, of a really short Tholian wearing something that looked like a TAS life support belt on his back like a backpack. I just thought it was just a funny picture someone did, but it is not the case.

    It turns out he is from IDC's TOS series called Year Five and was a young Tholian that Kirk and company rescued and who apparently stayed on the ship for a while.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,478 Arc User
    Planet of the Apes? My first thought was Bonnie Tyler, and "Total Eclipse of the Heart".

    (Also the first nickname I gave my daughter, as when she was born she didn't come out crying, she was too busy looking around and trying to make sense of the information her new eyes were giving her. Doctor thought she might have breathing issues, but it turns out she was just autistic and didn't see any reason to cry right then.)
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 11,031 Community Moderator
    jonsills wrote: »
    Planet of the Apes? My first thought was Bonnie Tyler, and "Total Eclipse of the Heart".

    Yeah, Planet of the Apes. It's what I first thought, too. Don't tell me that you don't recall that, jon. 😊 "Bright Eyes" is what Doctor Zira called Taylor before she realized he could speak.
    GrWzQke.png
    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
    Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
    Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
    ----> Contact Customer Support <----
    Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
    Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
    Want the latest information on Star Trek Online?
    Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
  • dragon#2626 dragon Member Posts: 276 Arc User
    Fair point. I nonetheless think having a genuinely friendly Tholian is a nice touch.

    I heard he's from the IDW Comics, I personally never read any of the Star Trek Comics, so for me, Bright Eyes just comes completely out of left field, I never even heard of this character before this Arc, plus I associate the name "Bright Eyes" more with the Planet of Apes franchise.

    Apparently so.

    I didn't know about the character either until I looked him up at Memory Beta, but immediately recognized him as a popular avatar in sci-fi forums and whatnot in the last few years, of a really short Tholian wearing something that looked like a TAS life support belt on his back like a backpack. I just thought it was just a funny picture someone did, but it is not the case.

    It turns out he is from IDC's TOS series called Year Five and was a young Tholian that Kirk and company rescued and who apparently stayed on the ship for a while.

    That must've been interesting considering Tholian environmental requirements.
    I swim through a sea of stars. . . .
  • mez83mez83 Member Posts: 255 Arc User
    It wouldn't be the first time we encountered a species who's perception of reality was different from our own that we could really comprehend it. Remember that Sisko had to explain liner time to the Prophets.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,478 Arc User
    mez83 wrote: »
    It wouldn't be the first time we encountered a species who's perception of reality was different from our own that we could really comprehend it. Remember that Sisko had to explain liner time to the Prophets.
    [standing in his memory of the wreckage of the Saratoga and the death of his wife] "Then why do you exist here?"
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,478 Arc User
    Okay, finally played the mission today (instead of the TFO), and it's become apparent that there are players who absolutely do not ever read the dialog boxes.

    We're shutting down those projectors not just to thwart the eeeevil Tholian plans, but because the method the Tholians are trying to use to fix the anomaly, pretty much brute-forcing it into nonexistence, is setting up a feedback in the local spacetime that's going to make what's left of Na'khul's star go supernova. While you examine the Tholian data, Kuumarke comes up with a way of solving the issue that can both fix the anomaly and save the star - but the Tholians, xenophobic as they are, are unwilling to listen. Then after you kill the captain, Bright Eyes (who is apparently the first officer) takes command. He does listen to Kuumarke, and quickly expands on her idea to use protomatter along with the web-spinners to basically "sew" spacetime back together. Then you have to implement the idea, with the assistance of the Tholians but with opposition from the Na'khul (who also don't want to listen to anyone).

    The initial Tholian commander was indeed "willfully obtuse", as xenophobia tends to result in that (much like the American farmers who set up the Dust Bowl in part because they didn't want to listen to Natives' advice on contour plowing), but once a more, well, reasonable commander was set in place, a solution to the problem became available. And no, you're not just "shrugging and turning everything back on", you're aware that the anomaly left to itself is an existential threat to at least this entire system, if not the quadrant at large. You only shut them down in an attempt to save Na'khul, with the understanding that you'd turn them back on once the Lukari technology had been integrated with the Tholian.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,408 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Okay, finally played the mission today (instead of the TFO), and it's become apparent that there are players who absolutely do not ever read the dialog boxes.

    We're shutting down those projectors not just to thwart the eeeevil Tholian plans, but because the method the Tholians are trying to use to fix the anomaly, pretty much brute-forcing it into nonexistence, is setting up a feedback in the local spacetime that's going to make what's left of Na'khul's star go supernova. While you examine the Tholian data, Kuumarke comes up with a way of solving the issue that can both fix the anomaly and save the star - but the Tholians, xenophobic as they are, are unwilling to listen. Then after you kill the captain, Bright Eyes (who is apparently the first officer) takes command. He does listen to Kuumarke, and quickly expands on her idea to use protomatter along with the web-spinners to basically "sew" spacetime back together. Then you have to implement the idea, with the assistance of the Tholians but with opposition from the Na'khul (who also don't want to listen to anyone).

    The initial Tholian commander was indeed "willfully obtuse", as xenophobia tends to result in that (much like the American farmers who set up the Dust Bowl in part because they didn't want to listen to Natives' advice on contour plowing), but once a more, well, reasonable commander was set in place, a solution to the problem became available. And no, you're not just "shrugging and turning everything back on", you're aware that the anomaly left to itself is an existential threat to at least this entire system, if not the quadrant at large. You only shut them down in an attempt to save Na'khul, with the understanding that you'd turn them back on once the Lukari technology had been integrated with the Tholian.
    Yeah I said it already on page 1, we're not stopping the Tholian because are doing evil for the sake of evil, but rather because what they're doing is right but they're doing it the wrong way and their cure is worse then the disease.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,899 Arc User
    Fair point. I nonetheless think having a genuinely friendly Tholian is a nice touch.

    I heard he's from the IDW Comics, I personally never read any of the Star Trek Comics, so for me, Bright Eyes just comes completely out of left field, I never even heard of this character before this Arc, plus I associate the name "Bright Eyes" more with the Planet of Apes franchise.

    Apparently so.

    I didn't know about the character either until I looked him up at Memory Beta, but immediately recognized him as a popular avatar in sci-fi forums and whatnot in the last few years, of a really short Tholian wearing something that looked like a TAS life support belt on his back like a backpack. I just thought it was just a funny picture someone did, but it is not the case.

    It turns out he is from IDC's TOS series called Year Five and was a young Tholian that Kirk and company rescued and who apparently stayed on the ship for a while.

    That must've been interesting considering Tholian environmental requirements.

    That is why Brighteyes was wearing the TAS-era life support field generator in that backpack-like arrangement, on the inside of the field it is toasty Tholian temperature and atmosphere, outside of it is the normal Starfleet standard conditions.
  • annemarie30annemarie30 Member Posts: 2,698 Arc User
    edited May 2023

    I'd have to play it again to read the exact lines once more, but I don't think it was implied that they are incapable of distinguishing different political entities and parallel individuals from alternate realities. To me, it seems that they just never really saw those alternate realities as truly alternate - which might precisely be a result of their enhanced dimensional mobility.

    I see it more of a laziness of sorts. People don't say that's a tank full of Trout, bass, and grouper, they say that's a tank of fish.
    they don't say the Guenons Capuchins and Macaques were funny at the Zoo, they say monkeys. definitely no reason to get undergarments bunched up, as said above, Tholians are gonna Tholian. If they are gonna be the big bad for the next few episodes, I'd love to see an easter egg, where it goes to a cut scene, the team is pinned down, and one of the Bridge officers says, "I got this" pulls out a can of Raid or Black Flag and the tholians run away screaming.
    We Want Vic Fontaine
  • paradox#7391 paradox Member Posts: 1,800 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    We're shutting down those projectors not just to thwart the eeeevil Tholian plans, but because the method the Tholians are trying to use to fix the anomaly, pretty much brute-forcing it into nonexistence, is setting up a feedback in the local spacetime that's going to make what's left of Na'khul's star go supernova. While you examine the Tholian data, Kuumarke comes up with a way of solving the issue that can both fix the anomaly and save the star - but the Tholians, xenophobic as they are, are unwilling to listen. Then after you kill the captain, Bright Eyes (who is apparently the first officer) takes command. He does listen to Kuumarke, and quickly expands on her idea to use protomatter along with the web-spinners to basically "sew" spacetime back together. Then you have to implement the idea, with the assistance of the Tholians but with opposition from the Na'khul (who also don't want to listen to anyone).

    Seems like Protomatter is a really useful tool that can fix every problem these days, it seems to be a Deus Ex Machina,

    Hmmm... What if I reverse engineer this Protomatter into Anti-Protomatter, would I now have the perfect tool for breaking stuff?
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,408 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    We're shutting down those projectors not just to thwart the eeeevil Tholian plans, but because the method the Tholians are trying to use to fix the anomaly, pretty much brute-forcing it into nonexistence, is setting up a feedback in the local spacetime that's going to make what's left of Na'khul's star go supernova. While you examine the Tholian data, Kuumarke comes up with a way of solving the issue that can both fix the anomaly and save the star - but the Tholians, xenophobic as they are, are unwilling to listen. Then after you kill the captain, Bright Eyes (who is apparently the first officer) takes command. He does listen to Kuumarke, and quickly expands on her idea to use protomatter along with the web-spinners to basically "sew" spacetime back together. Then you have to implement the idea, with the assistance of the Tholians but with opposition from the Na'khul (who also don't want to listen to anyone).

    Seems like Protomatter is a really useful tool that can fix every problem these days, it seems to be a Deus Ex Machina,

    Hmmm... What if I reverse engineer this Protomatter into Anti-Protomatter, would I now have the perfect tool for breaking stuff?

    Well it's been that for as long as I've been alive, previous it was just a case that protomatter was unstable and thus couldn't be used as often.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,699 Community Moderator
    Hmmm... What if I reverse engineer this Protomatter into Anti-Protomatter, would I now have the perfect tool for breaking stuff?

    We already have something for that. Its called our starships. ;)
    spiritborn wrote: »
    Well it's been that for as long as I've been alive, previous it was just a case that protomatter was unstable and thus couldn't be used as often.

    We also haven't had a species that practically perfected using it. Starfleet's last experience with Protomatter was Project Genesis back in the 23rd Century. Didn't really work out very well in the end, extenuating circumstances aside.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    We're shutting down those projectors not just to thwart the eeeevil Tholian plans, but because the method the Tholians are trying to use to fix the anomaly, pretty much brute-forcing it into nonexistence, is setting up a feedback in the local spacetime that's going to make what's left of Na'khul's star go supernova. While you examine the Tholian data, Kuumarke comes up with a way of solving the issue that can both fix the anomaly and save the star - but the Tholians, xenophobic as they are, are unwilling to listen. Then after you kill the captain, Bright Eyes (who is apparently the first officer) takes command. He does listen to Kuumarke, and quickly expands on her idea to use protomatter along with the web-spinners to basically "sew" spacetime back together. Then you have to implement the idea, with the assistance of the Tholians but with opposition from the Na'khul (who also don't want to listen to anyone).

    Seems like Protomatter is a really useful tool that can fix every problem these days, it seems to be a Deus Ex Machina,


    Every game has its own Deus Ex Machina:

    Shepard: "Remember the good ol' days when you could just slap Omni-Gel on everything?!"
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 5,051 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    We're shutting down those projectors not just to thwart the eeeevil Tholian plans, but because the method the Tholians are trying to use to fix the anomaly, pretty much brute-forcing it into nonexistence, is setting up a feedback in the local spacetime that's going to make what's left of Na'khul's star go supernova. While you examine the Tholian data, Kuumarke comes up with a way of solving the issue that can both fix the anomaly and save the star - but the Tholians, xenophobic as they are, are unwilling to listen. Then after you kill the captain, Bright Eyes (who is apparently the first officer) takes command. He does listen to Kuumarke, and quickly expands on her idea to use protomatter along with the web-spinners to basically "sew" spacetime back together. Then you have to implement the idea, with the assistance of the Tholians but with opposition from the Na'khul (who also don't want to listen to anyone).

    Seems like Protomatter is a really useful tool that can fix every problem these days, it seems to be a Deus Ex Machina,

    Hmmm... What if I reverse engineer this Protomatter into Anti-Protomatter, would I now have the perfect tool for breaking stuff?

    I thought the same thing. It's a bit too easy a solution.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Hmmm... What if I reverse engineer this Protomatter into Anti-Protomatter, would I now have the perfect tool for breaking stuff?

    We already have something for that. Its called our starships. ;)

    And sticks Lirpa's and stones micro-photon torpedoes.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,699 Community Moderator
    I thought the same thing. It's a bit too easy a solution.

    I don't think its the end all solution you're thinking right now. If this new arc goes the way I think it might be going, Protomatter is nothing more than a band-aid solution and is absolutely dependant on KNOWING where these rifts are and getting TO them BEFORE too much damage is done.

    The solution may require going to the SOURCE and stopping it there rather than just reacting.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,408 Arc User

    I'd have to play it again to read the exact lines once more, but I don't think it was implied that they are incapable of distinguishing different political entities and parallel individuals from alternate realities. To me, it seems that they just never really saw those alternate realities as truly alternate - which might precisely be a result of their enhanced dimensional mobility.

    I see it more of a laziness of sorts. People don't say that's a tank full of Trout, bass, and grouper, they say that's a tank of fish.
    they don't say the Guenons Capuchins and Macaques were funny at the Zoo, they say monkeys. definitely no reason to get undergarments bunched up, as said above, Tholians are gonna Tholian.

    Tholian Xenophobia has been a thing since TOS so it honestly makes perfect sense they paint non-Tholians with a broad brush, I mean how often IRL we hear the terms African or Asian used by racist in a way that implies those places are culturally monolithic despite both of those being continents bigger then Europe, yet in truth for example a Zulu and a Somali have very little ethnically in common other then that their skin is darker then your average white European.

    In similar vein Tholians (well most of them anyway) never bothered to learn the difference between a prime universe human and a terran to them they're just humans, same for any other non-Tholian culture.
This discussion has been closed.