Dyson Battlezone, power creep, camping etc. Thread #474.747

fleetcaptain5

I was in the Dyson battlezone. The V-Rex appeared and immediately lost one third of its hit points, right through its shields - which didn't take any damage. That's 10.000 hit points of shield-ignoring damage. Three seconds later, it was dead. I'm not even exaggerating.

Then the player who did this ran away faster than I've ever seen anyone run.


Now, I don't care about the dilithium, I still got - surprisingly - credit for that one V-Rex but I doubt everyone else present did. But again, I genuinely do not care that I almost missed out. This complaint isn't written for my own benefit. I'm writing this out of concern for others, those many players who have, time and again, pointed out the problems here.

Cryptic, do you think instances like these give off a good impression to newer players (who make up a significantly bigger part of the playerbase nowadays)?
How are newer players - or even veterans who occasionally visit the zone - supposed to compete against this ridiculous amount of power creep, camping and zone-specific min-maxing?


Fix it, or delete it already for Q's sake. Your content is prone to exploiting and abuse, thereby contributing to game-wide issues like the broken DilEX. It has been for years, in fact. Players have told you so for years and they have suggested - for just as many years - countless ways of solving these issues.


How, I ask you, can you justify keeping this situation as it is?

fleetcaptain5

I don't like having to write this aggressively and complain about things, but damn.

At some point it becomes very annoying if serious problems like these keep being ignored.

baddmoonrizin

Aggressively? Maybe. But still respectfully. It's much appreciated. Thank you.

cxeronockx

A while ago I asked a question in the forum that may have been about a similar problem https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1268458/cant-the-devs-do-something-about-the-campers-in-the-dyson-ground-batlezone then there were several responses, but no solution and strange but true, there were even those who even defended the campers. Now, as that questioner, I've come to the conclusion that I'll only enter that zone if it seems opportune for an endeavor and then I'll do only the bare necessities and be out of there. However, if you ask the endeavor to defeat the end boss, I must admit that I now do as so many do (sorry for the capital letters) and that is CAMPEN because apparently that is rewarded more than unlocking zones and then defeating the end boss. I've always played it fair and played a big part in unlocking zones, but to be honest that time is over for me now. Once again I'm still going there just for an endeavor.

krisxr400

In the past if i got there first I'd wait for others to show up. I can't insta melt him anyways. I also do it in tfo's, I don't wana be "that player" that spoils the fun for others. In these modern times of poor sportsmanship and no consequences it seems the majority of ppl in general are a bunch self righteous and self entitled legends in their own minds, in game or in the real world. I didn't even bother to do that endeavour the other day, I knew what was gonna happen, and saw the complaints in the chat over that two day period. Power creep needs to be addressed, either nerf op skills/weapons/abilities or buff the heck out of the enemies. I even tuned down my ship load outs, because it isn't fun to one hit everything.

fleetcaptain5

krisxr400 wrote: »

In the past if i got there first I'd wait for others to show up. I can't insta melt him anyways. I also do it in tfo's, I don't wana be "that player" that spoils the fun for others. In these modern times of poor sportsmanship and no consequences it seems the majority of ppl in general are a bunch self righteous and self entitled legends in their own minds, in game or in the real world. I didn't even bother to do that endeavour the other day, I knew what was gonna happen, and saw the complaints in the chat over that two day period. Power creep needs to be addressed, either nerf op skills/weapons/abilities or buff the heck out of the enemies. I even tuned down my ship load outs, because it isn't fun to one hit everything.

A couple of days ago, with the universal endeavour being centred around the Battlezone, I saw people mention something similar in zone chat there. Something along the lines of 'if you're going to camp, you're likely to get credit anyway, so why take it down all the way?'

Unfortunately, as you rightly observe, few people seem to take in mind the needs of others. Which means that yes, I'm afraid that nerfs might be necessary.
For this particular instance though, it would even suffice if some of the other suggestions (automatic beaming to the V-rex, a short countdown, beaming everyone to the command centre) were finally implemented.

captainkoltar

This is one of my biggest frustrations with the game (which may say a lot about my priorities).

Mainly I think because it's so fixable. The three suggestions in fleetcaptain5's last sentence are all viable and all doable. The countdown thing is already implemented for the final fight in the space battlezones anyway.

-K

krisxr400

I remember that thread a little while ago, @fleetcaptain5. I agree there were some really good suggestions there. I also agree with the current state of power creep and enemy hit points and resistances that those suggestions may not be enough. I honestly think the state of the game play prior to 2017 was better in some ways. Although some of the choices in that balance pass did make the load outs more evenly matched, and allowed for more unique and fun" load outs possible. I still don't care for experimental weapons and the cannon cycle time nerf. I'd rather loose that experimental slot and have the old cannons back.

Back on topic, lol, I do think another balance pass is needed across player and npc ground and space. Maybe with more of a focus on npc. And not cheesy buffs for npc's like rooting, shutting down boff abilities, teleporting, stuff. Maybe instead give them more hp, resistance to (armor/shield type), and amp up there weapons a bit.

rattler2

krisxr400 wrote: »

And not cheesy buffs for npc's like rooting, shutting down boff abilities, teleporting, stuff. Maybe instead give them more hp, resistance to (armor/shield type), and amp up there weapons a bit.

The last time they did something like that, the forums lit on fire. Delta Rising had HP sponge enemies that weren't very well received.

annemarie30

krisxr400 wrote: »

I remember that thread a little while ago, @fleetcaptain5. I agree there were some really good suggestions there. I also agree with the current state of power creep and enemy hit points and resistances that those suggestions may not be enough. I honestly think the state of the game play prior to 2017 was better in some ways. Although some of the choices in that balance pass did make the load outs more evenly matched, and allowed for more unique and fun" load outs possible. I still don't care for experimental weapons and the cannon cycle time nerf. I'd rather loose that experimental slot and have the old cannons back.

Back on topic, lol, I do think another balance pass is needed across player and npc ground and space. Maybe with more of a focus on npc. And not cheesy buffs for npc's like rooting, shutting down boff abilities, teleporting, stuff. Maybe instead give them more hp, resistance to (armor/shield type), and amp up there weapons a bit.

yes and no. if you triple the V-rex HP, and you happen to be in a battlezone with only 4-8 other players who are not DPS gods, you may be blasting away at him and not be able to take him down.
I can tell you the number 1 reason they go down so easy. PETS. when the rexes were implemented, I think the only combat pet was the Mastiff for KDF. Now, my sci boff has the 2 targs, my first engineer has the android, my second engineer has the walker, my tac has the tardigrade, and i have a horta. I've DOUBLED my firepower ( ok not doubled but you get the drift. Add to that, the echo papa drone, the solar gateway, those beetles I've seen, and I don't know what else pet in a kit wise there is.

But if you are new, you may not have the pets. and speaking of pets.. how good are the freaking dinos with the lasers on their head?

ussvaliant2

Another thing that grinds my gears with this zone is how battlezone credits are rewarded. Many a time I've soloed a capture point and just as it's completed another Player runs through and scoops up those pink orbs.

krisxr400

I see your points @rattler2 and @annemarie30 and i agree. I have those pets but i don't use them. My weapons hit hard enough. I tuned down my load outs (space and ground) over a year ago, because stuff was melting too quick and stole some fun out of it. As far as players getting miffed, oh well. I've been through many nerfs across lots of games, and that's just how it rolls, part of the gaming experience. I don't quit a game for it. I member those delta nerf's, i wasn't thrilled, but after a short while realized it was for the better. Some stuff and load outs were waaay op.

I think something definitely needs to be done. I think it would also encourage players to change it up a bit and try new tactics. Other than sprint run spam console space bar space bar space bar, objectives, what's objectives? lol look at me, look what i can do! Oh and the copying one another, i swear the majority of players run either disco rep or lukari rep, mostly disco and that's it. Everything just feels so stale, op -(probably mostly endeavour's fault), and lame. I think if you load out your stuff right there's other alternatives that are waaay better than disco or lukari rep for survival and dps. Aaaand I'm waay off topic. Thanks for letting me get in my 2 cents.

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baddmoonrizin

Well, this topic was mentioned briefly in the recent livestream, and internal talks are happening.

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annemarie30

valoreah wrote: »

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

Well, this topic was mentioned briefly in the recent livestream, and internal talks are happening.

There is an old Vulcan proverb - "I'll believe it when I see it."

I thought the proverb was "Only Nixon could go to China"

spiritborn

annemarie30 wrote: »

valoreah wrote: »

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

Well, this topic was mentioned briefly in the recent livestream, and internal talks are happening.

There is an old Vulcan proverb - "I'll believe it when I see it."

I thought the proverb was "Only Nixon could go to China"

That assumes that Vulcans have only 1 proverb

ussvaliant2

Since they changed how tagging worked years ago the zone has turned into every person for themselves, Basically it's a noncontact PvP zone.

fleetcaptain5

ussvaliant2#1952 wrote: »

Since they changed how tagging worked years ago the zone has turned into every person for themselves, Basically it's a noncontact PvP zone.

It's always been every one for themselves, even when 'tagging' was only required. People weren't being more considerate back then.

But ultimately it doesn't matter whether you need to shoot for three seconds or so and then run to the next one - or kill the first one before you run to the next one. If it can be killed in those three seconds, the end result will be the same.

It's more or less a PvP zone indeed. One that brings out the worst in people and which doesn't promote or reward skill. it mostly promotes leeching and AFK'ing and - even worse - it basically punishes everyone who doesn't do these things.

And that needs to stop. I can't actually think of any other zone, mission or TFO that rewards bad behaviour like this battlezone does. And that's a shame, because it is - in my opinion - still one of the best looking zones we have in the game.

ussvaliant2

fleetcaptain5#1134 wrote: »

ussvaliant2#1952 wrote: »

Since they changed how tagging worked years ago the zone has turned into every person for themselves, Basically it's a noncontact PvP zone.

It's always been every one for themselves, even when 'tagging' was only required. People weren't being more considerate back then.

But ultimately it doesn't matter whether you need to shoot for three seconds or so and then run to the next one - or kill the first one before you run to the next one. If it can be killed in those three seconds, the end result will be the same.

It's more or less a PvP zone indeed. One that brings out the worst in people and which doesn't promote or reward skill. it mostly promotes leeching and AFK'ing and - even worse - it basically punishes everyone who doesn't do these things.

And that needs to stop. I can't actually think of any other zone, mission or TFO that rewards bad behaviour like this battlezone does. And that's a shame, because it is - in my opinion - still one of the best looking zones we have in the game.

I agree the zone doesn't promote fair play and nothing epitomizes that more than the Uni Endeavour requiring you kill a V-Rex.

Also maybe people were more considerate back in the day regards to tagging?

Unfortunately the business model is power creep outside of gamble boxes and promoting team play died a long time ago with the introduction of the reputation system.

scorpwanna

I Dyson Ground Battlezone every night across 7 of my characters. I've seen... stuff. Ball Lightning grinds my gears! I have access to it, I could get it, use it and wipe the rex clean, but I don't. Dyson is suppose to be a team effort, not a one shot and it's done deal. Campers can ruin a good run, you're out there capturing points, easing the battlezone closer to rex time, and then boom... An afk player just standing there at the Silo uses the purple/pink kuumarre lightning, Ball Lightning and now vger probes and the rex just stops existing. Then they run off at warp 100 with what seems like stacks upon stacks of Motion Accelerators and who knows what else. I once followed behind someone as soon as they went through the transport from Outskirts to the Park and by the time I got to the Park, they had already ran to the Rex, killed it and were heading back. I then used the city transport and just watched the rex because I knew I'd never make it over there in time. Sure enough, that person zoomed in at the blink of an eye and was just there. I never saw them running, they were just there, as in popped in.

Some of it's campers, some of it's people who just won't share the reward. One thing I do know is, the last time they did something to fix whatever was wrong at Dyson, managed to cause players to log in and instantly get disconnected and crash their client. Then when they "fixed" it, the table behind Commander Arnold was 8 feet in the air, objects throughout the zone were detached and floating, the transporter pads were 5+ feet in the air and you had to jump as hard as you could to get up there. They then "fixed" it again by rolling it back to a previous version or something, but now the City door has an animation glitch, the object that the Outskirts teleporter visual is connected to can be seen as a white box sitting next to it. It's been it's current state like that for over 2 years. It's fun to fall out of the map too. There are 4 places I know to do this heh.

But yeah, I think I'd be a great idea to up the NPCs there, I mean, you're level 65 and they are fighting at like 50. I watch time and time again people using ball lightning on a single average voth to kill it when a shot from a gun will work just as well. The zone is definitely being over powered and is a Dilithium farming community. There's "certain" player names I see there that seem to be on this automatic round they take on a fresh map, I've followed people and just watched, tried to communicate and got no response. Even to the point where I'd use the Cover Shield on an eng to block their path but they keep walking into it expecting to continue forward. It's very odd. Anyway, yeah, good luck... If ya see me, say "POTATO" or something to let me know you're there, I'm always on every night fighting the good voth fight.

krisxr400

I have to agree with everything here in the thread. It has made me not want to even play the ground zone for a few years or more. Player behavior is rather selfish, self centered, and immature. Like online sociopaths, I think they get enjoyment knowing they ruin the fun for others.

Another map that just bugs me and within the last couple of years the game play has gotten obviously selfish, is the romulan minefield. New players get that mission request as part of their story progression, once I got leveled up and realized this, when hitting the random button, I always just meandered along, setting free a few transports, and just kinda letting the newer players do their thing. Sometimes healing and just watching them play. Now there's always 1-3 players that that just mop the map up on those lower level npc's, totally ignore getting alpha, beta, and gamma facilities back online, then after they've mopped the map up, go sit and wait where the falcato spawns and mop that up. All because there's a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd prize of vanilla gear. Some good sportsmanship huh? I've waited before and deliberately not re-activate the facilities, make them do it, they killed the npc's, why not. I've also put into chat before, that they are lousy players and make for a lousy team. I'm sure I'm ignored, because why fess up to your behavior, there's no consequences. And they warp out thinking to themselves, im no1, im no1, look at me, look what i can do, im no1! I took away the newbs fun! lol I had to put that jab in there.

On a side note: I member when sto was heavily populated, you couldn't fly in sector space without running into someone, the community was better, chat was better, players were better, I did notice after disco came out, and the new content in game shifted to that new show, a exodus of players, sometimes vocally in chat, and then a gradual but steady increase of new players. The community, chat, and sportsmanship also changed. I'm not saying everything was perfect, I am saying everything was better, more friendly, and more fun to play.

baddmoonrizin

Ok, let's be careful about we say about others. Thank you.

jonsills

krisxr400 wrote: »

On a side note: I member when sto was heavily populated, you couldn't fly in sector space without running into someone, the community was better, chat was better, players were better, I did notice after disco came out, and the new content in game shifted to that new show, a exodus of players, sometimes vocally in chat, and then a gradual but steady increase of new players. The community, chat, and sportsmanship also changed. I'm not saying everything was perfect, I am saying everything was better, more friendly, and more fun to play.

I remember those times as well - and you may be wearing rose lenses, because the behavior in zones like Dyson Ground and ground Fleet Ops put me off working with other players for a long time. I still prefer space TFOs, where I might actually get a chance to reach the mission checkpoint before some speedrunner locks me out.

themartian

Having recently come back to the game, I've definitely noticed the power creep. Even in elite TFOs, stuff just melts. The Dyson battle zone has always had a problem with people either snatching the pink tokens without having contributed or camping on the dinos. I've seen zone progression halt because the zone is close to completion and everyone just runs to the silos instead of doing any of the objectives.

It's a shame because I do like that zone and I like the idea of it in theory with players grouping together with their Boffs. There's not enough places you can do that. I'd appreciate the tokens being awarded directly to players and there being a countdown before the dinos appear, possibly with the option to emergency transport to them.

vetteguy904

Well, one solution I can think of is if you are idle and stationary in the T-rex zone, more and more sentinels start coming at you. I don't care how high you can DPS, the number of sentinels will eventually overwhelm you. It would also make sense as well. If you have an enemy that is stationary, you would send security out to neutralize the threat, especially at the silos

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rattler2

I'd have to agree with Val on this one. Spawning a bunch of Sentinels to overwhelm is not a viable counter to camping the V-Rex. Not only would they remain until dealt with by everyone else, I don't know if the code can handle that kind of thing in a persistant environment like the Battlezone.

Anyone who remembers when Nukara was first added probably also remember the bug that allowed Drones to persist there. A whole area of Nukara was heavily populated by Drones killing Tholians the second they spawned. We might end up with a similar situation in the Dyson Battlezone, but with US being the Tholians. Not only that, how do you determine if someone is idle or active? Will these Sentinels keep spawning DURING the fight with the V-Rex, thus overwhelming the players and making the fight itself impossible?

There's way too many ways that idea can go wrong or be used AGAINST other players. And as we know... if there is a way to grief other players with something in game, someone will eventually do it for their own amusement, just like some griefers back when Delta Rising added fail conditions to the Borg TFOs.

baddmoonrizin

How about, instead of having the V-Rex spawn at a fixed site, have it spawn at the last flipped zone? That way most players actually playing are already there, and campers cannot camp, because they'll never know exactly which zone will flip last.

fleetcaptain5

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

How about, instead of having the V-Rex spawn at a fixed site, have it spawn at the last flipped zone? That way most players actually playing are already there, and campers cannot camp, because they'll never know exactly which zone will flip last.

I don't think that would really work.

Imagine a situation where a few people are capturing one zone in, say, the Park. While a few others are simultaneously capturing a zone in the Outskirts.

Several things could happen, including the Park getting flipped and everyone who's there running to the next red zone of the Park - and then the Outskirts getting flipped and triggering the final fight. Or the Park gets flipped first, that triggers the final fight and everyone in the Outskirts (who are now at a point that cannot be captured anymore) has to try and figure out which zone there got flipped last, before they went to the point they're currently at.

Or, even worse: imagine a situation where two groups of players are capturing two different zones in the Park and no one knowing which one is going to get flipped first. One group would then have to traverse the entire zone if they're unlucky.

And there are situations where it might be worse compared to what we have now, for example: when the last zone to be flipped is that very distant point, far away from the transporter in the Park. While those in the City, fully captured long before the other two areas, are waiting at their last flipped point until the Park people get their stuff done. There'd still be camping, just in different spots. It would mainly make things less predictable - perhaps even punishment - for everyone, including for those who do want to put in some effort.

I also imagine that changing the spawn points carries with it the risk of introducing unforeseen consequences, since it probably means changing more of how the battlezone itself works.

Personally I'm more in favour of less drastic measures. I don't think things need to be made more complicated than necessary.

annemarie30

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

How about, instead of having the V-Rex spawn at a fixed site, have it spawn at the last flipped zone? That way most players actually playing are already there, and campers cannot camp, because they'll never know exactly which zone will flip last.

Rex is suppose to protect the silo. but you could have 3 or 4 silos, and a random spawn