It def seems like the larger the starting power gap, the smaller the pvp community. and the majority of problems people have with pvp basically comes down to "I dont like the power gap, i want to have a chance." just lower the power gap and up the rewards, and pvp will become mainstream again. it's got great bones, people just need to be able to actually compete against the people at the top end of the power gap. doing no dmg while getting killed very quickly isnt fun for anyone. change that and watch the pvp community thrive again.
It's way too late. The Endeavour system removes any semblance of 'fair game' unless they are the exact level, and with the system integrated across the account, it's going to cause more problems seperating it from PvP than it causes. PvP in STO was and never has been mainstream....like....ever!
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
It's way too late. The Endeavour system removes any semblance of 'fair game' unless they are the exact level, and with the system integrated across the account, it's going to cause more problems seperating it from PvP than it causes. PvP in STO was and never has been mainstream....like....ever!
just remove (or greatly reduce) endeavor bonuses on pvp maps, boom, problem solved. and yes, pvp did used to be mainstream, cause the pvp queues used to pop all the time back in the day. and if you check the feedback section of the forums, you can see that the pvp section had way more activity in there than any other specialized section had, by far. it used to be very popular and the queues were poppin.
btw, Baseball wouldnt be popular if everyone who played was told they couldnt use a glove or a hat the first year, and instead of a bat they have to use a pencil
and if you check the feedback section of the forums, you can see that the pvp section had way more activity in there than any other specialized section had, by far.
That doesn't prove anything.
In STO, just like in any other MMO, the PvP-minority has a lot to say, creating the false impressing that they are a significant portion of the playerbase.
All they are really doing is constantly complaining about balance, asking for nerfs, creating a toxic atmosphere and attempting to divert unreasonable amounts of dev-resources that could have been put to better use.
Luckily cryptic doesn't fall for that, and I'd be glad if they keep it that way.
The typical PvP "feedback" goes like this: Please Nerf rock, it's OP.
Paper is fine.
Regards, Scissors
It's way too late. The Endeavour system removes any semblance of 'fair game' unless they are the exact level, and with the system integrated across the account, it's going to cause more problems seperating it from PvP than it causes. PvP in STO was and never has been mainstream....like....ever!
just remove (or greatly reduce) endeavor bonuses on pvp maps, boom, problem solved. and yes, pvp did used to be mainstream, cause the pvp queues used to pop all the time back in the day. and if you check the feedback section of the forums, you can see that the pvp section had way more activity in there than any other specialized section had, by far. it used to be very popular and the queues were poppin.
The thing is, the entire industry was different back in the day, before gaming itself went mainstream to the point where casuals vastly outnumbered the more hardcore players who typically like PvP. The middle of last decade was the tipping point so a lot of games, STO included, found they had to adapt to the new player balance in the market which generally led to building out the PvE side and downplaying or partitioning off the PvP in order to attract more of the new players.
With small dev teams like STO has that means the PvP side gets very little (if any) attention nowadays because they don't have enough people to cover more than the mainstream aspects of the game, and shifting some of the few over to working on PvP would be risking the mainstream PvE starting to stagnate. It is not an easy balance when the resources to do things like that are short.
"All of this has happened before and will happen again."
I'd like a couple new PvP maps. Just that. And no more than that. I think Cryptic could pull this off successfully. But I am unsure.
Around here any post or thread on PvP seems to bring out people who swoop in with all guns blazing. And the thread seems to
degenerate badly after that.
Would I like to see PvP become a viable part of STO? You betcha! Anything about this game which increases players' enjoyment of it I'm always all for. Even if it is only a very few players.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
"All of this has happened before and will happen again."
Would I like to see PvP become a viable part of STO? You betcha! Anything about this game which increases players' enjoyment of it I'm always all for. Even if it is only a very few players.
I'm not against that either, except that development is a zero-sum game. Putting resources into PVP for those few players means taking away resources from the majority who want PVE.
If STO had a budget like WoW or Final Fantasy XIV that would be OK, but the STO team is much too small for that to work well.
I don't think making a couple or three PvP maps is going to bring the game to a crashing halt development wise. That's hyperbole. And Cryptic has been starved of resources from the first day they took over this game.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
I don't think making a couple or three PvP maps is going to bring the game to a crashing halt development wise. That's hyperbole. And Cryptic has been starved of resources from the first day they took over this game.
It doesn't have to be crashing halt, all it needs is take more resources to make the potential returns, if 99% of your players (not true number as far I know just used for illustration) of your players want PvE and don't want/care about PvP putting more then 1% of your resources into that will not yield enough returns for it be worth it.
And that's more important the less resources you have in the first place.
After all if couple new PvP maps won't solve the issue with the popularity of PvP and from what I've gathered the problem most people have with PvP isn't the lack of maps then those resources have been wasted.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,696Community Moderator
I wouldn't mind seeing PvP given a once over for those who enjoy it. However the biggest issue is that as things stand now, its next to impossible to balance for PvP alongside builds that absolutely wreck anything in sight in PvE.
STO can't really do what FF14 does, which is pretty much have a whole PvP specific set of abilities, because then we'd have people ranting about how they can't use their own builds in PvP that they worked so hard on.
We can't really just duplicate everything and give separate PvE and PvP stats because that will more than double the size of the database. While some abilities do have stipulation regarding their effectiveness against players vs NPCs... the disparity between casual and PvPer can be measured in lightyears.
And we can't just use premade PvP ships because people want to fly their own ships. Anyone who was around when Battle of the Binary Stars came out remembers how people were complaining over a simple cosmetic change to their ships. Its their same ships, with the same builds, but they took on the appearance of a DSC era ship for that one TFO. And that was more than enough to cause some people to rage as if they were taken out of their own ships and put into a Cryptic build. (admittedly Cryptic builds tend to be a bit iffy, but that's beside the point.)
So literally... its a case of Cryptic cannot win on this one. No matter what they do, it is not what is wanted or capable of being done.
That doesn't prove anything.
In STO, just like in any other MMO, the PvP-minority has a lot to say, creating the false impressing that they are a significant portion of the playerbase.
All they are really doing is constantly complaining about balance, asking for nerfs, creating a toxic atmosphere and attempting to divert unreasonable amounts of dev-resources that could have been put to better use.
Luckily cryptic doesn't fall for that, and I'd be glad if they keep it that way.
The typical PvP "feedback" goes like this: Please Nerf rock, it's OP.
Paper is fine.
Regards, Scissors
Yea that's pretty much true too. Everyone wants their own particular stick to be the best, and anything that can counter it is OP and needs to be nerfed. And most of the time its whatever the current Meta is that wants potential counters nerfed. There was a time where this game was basically Escorts Online, where Escorts dominated. Then the Meta changed. Currently... I don't even know what the Meta is but its still kinda revolving around the concept of "it cannot hurt you if it is already dead". Which, unfortunately, in a PvP setting those kinds of builds just dominate. Whoever shoots first wins because 9 times out of 10... the target dies INSTANTLY since its a build designed for targets with vastly higher HP pools than what Players have access to.
And I don't know about you, but getting vaped without even being able to fire a shot is not fun. Feels more like EVE level ganking at that point. Why bother?
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
It's way too late. The Endeavour system removes any semblance of 'fair game' unless they are the exact level, and with the system integrated across the account, it's going to cause more problems seperating it from PvP than it causes. PvP in STO was and never has been mainstream....like....ever!
just remove (or greatly reduce) endeavor bonuses on pvp maps, boom, problem solved. and yes, pvp did used to be mainstream, cause the pvp queues used to pop all the time back in the day. and if you check the feedback section of the forums, you can see that the pvp section had way more activity in there than any other specialized section had, by far. it used to be very popular and the queues were poppin.
Not boom....probably never will be a boom, because the system afaik is hard-coded to apply across every toon on the account. The bonuses are not applied contextually like equipment is either. They are always 'on.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
it's actually very easy to prove that PVP is not worth the time to revamp. the Devs can program instance, say 7 as a PVP instance. no matter where you go what you do you are subject to PVP. within 3 months that instance will be empty of all but a doze3n predators waiting to gank someone new
The talk of a few PvP maps is pretty much a non starter. The issue is the PvP code is so old Cryptic doesn't know how it works. (I'm not being mean its just the truth) They have said a few times over the years they would fix Kerat and haven't been able to do anything. They basically have to completely remake it they can't even fix the warping borg.
The arena is the same situation... anyone seen a working score board in 10 years ? lol Those maps used have the score board in the corner. It doesn't follow their current code conventions and they haven't been able to figure out how to fix it.
With PvP its a complete rebuild or nothing. That is the issue. Cryptic would have to dedicate some actual real labour to the project. Which is unlikely.
As usual, it is easy for people who claim to want PvP to be fixed to come in here and run someone else's suggestion into the ground. And then turn around and claim their suggestion is the only way to make PvP perform like they demand.
Thank you for making it easier for Cryptic to say, "Naah. We're not doing that. Because reasons."
The new maps suggestion is a starting point. A. Starting. Point. A place to begin addressing the many corrections which will be required to bring PvP back into STO as a viable part of the game. And a thirteen year old game will probably sunset long before most of them could be implemented.
If you're that keen on Space PvP please go and play EVE.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
As usual, it is easy for people who claim to want PvP to be fixed to come in here and run someone else's suggestion into the ground. And then turn around and claim their suggestion is the only way to make PvP perform like they demand.
Thank you for making it easier for Cryptic to say, "Naah. We're not doing that. Because reasons."
The new maps suggestion is a starting point. A. Starting. Point. A place to begin addressing the many corrections which will be required to bring PvP back into STO as a viable part of the game. And a thirteen year old game will probably sunset long before most of them could be implemented.
If you're that keen on Space PvP please go and play EVE.
Not trying to stop anyone from making suggestions or shooting people down. Just sharing some reality. This was asked for 10 years ago. This is a 14 year old game now. The devs at the time agreed. They actually got on our vent server and talked to us directly. They said sure first we are going to fix Kerrat. Then weeks went by then months went by. The only answer we from a dev that no longer worked there was... the code is a mess no way its happening without a 100% re write. Which said dev suggested and was told NO. And that was a long time ago.
Hey perhaps the people at Cryptic are now more capable... or have different management that might agree to spending some more resources. I am simply sharing some history. It seems its really not possible to just add a new arena map... or for that matter even make minor changes to the existing ones and maps like kerrat. When they tried they broke it more then it already was. They gave us warping borg, and broken score boards trying to tweak it.
So ask for minor adjustments if you like... but if you really want them to do something you will have to push an overhaul because as I understand it on their end that is pretty much the only way to do it. The PVP code predates the games launch, it was rushed and I don't know all the nuance that makes a PITA. Be it noting, or not respecting global settings or whatever its just not in a state where they can easily add too it.
I'll be honest. I do miss the PvP endeavour (I'd take the former over Galaxy kills anyday). The essential issue is that PvP builds are radically different to PvE builds. Dedicated pvp builds will smoke top range PvE builds, which is extremely disheartening to new players. Just do pvp with standard random t1 ships and equipment, problem solved.
Comments
It's way too late. The Endeavour system removes any semblance of 'fair game' unless they are the exact level, and with the system integrated across the account, it's going to cause more problems seperating it from PvP than it causes. PvP in STO was and never has been mainstream....like....ever!
just remove (or greatly reduce) endeavor bonuses on pvp maps, boom, problem solved. and yes, pvp did used to be mainstream, cause the pvp queues used to pop all the time back in the day. and if you check the feedback section of the forums, you can see that the pvp section had way more activity in there than any other specialized section had, by far. it used to be very popular and the queues were poppin.
That doesn't prove anything.
In STO, just like in any other MMO, the PvP-minority has a lot to say, creating the false impressing that they are a significant portion of the playerbase.
All they are really doing is constantly complaining about balance, asking for nerfs, creating a toxic atmosphere and attempting to divert unreasonable amounts of dev-resources that could have been put to better use.
Luckily cryptic doesn't fall for that, and I'd be glad if they keep it that way.
The typical PvP "feedback" goes like this:
Please Nerf rock, it's OP.
Paper is fine.
Regards, Scissors
The thing is, the entire industry was different back in the day, before gaming itself went mainstream to the point where casuals vastly outnumbered the more hardcore players who typically like PvP. The middle of last decade was the tipping point so a lot of games, STO included, found they had to adapt to the new player balance in the market which generally led to building out the PvE side and downplaying or partitioning off the PvP in order to attract more of the new players.
With small dev teams like STO has that means the PvP side gets very little (if any) attention nowadays because they don't have enough people to cover more than the mainstream aspects of the game, and shifting some of the few over to working on PvP would be risking the mainstream PvE starting to stagnate. It is not an easy balance when the resources to do things like that are short.
I'd like a couple new PvP maps. Just that. And no more than that. I think Cryptic could pull this off successfully. But I am unsure.
Around here any post or thread on PvP seems to bring out people who swoop in with all guns blazing. And the thread seems to
degenerate badly after that.
Would I like to see PvP become a viable part of STO? You betcha! Anything about this game which increases players' enjoyment of it I'm always all for. Even if it is only a very few players.
I'm not against that either, except that development is a zero-sum game. Putting resources into PVP for those few players means taking away resources from the majority who want PVE.
If STO had a budget like WoW or Final Fantasy XIV that would be OK, but the STO team is much too small for that to work well.
It doesn't have to be crashing halt, all it needs is take more resources to make the potential returns, if 99% of your players (not true number as far I know just used for illustration) of your players want PvE and don't want/care about PvP putting more then 1% of your resources into that will not yield enough returns for it be worth it.
And that's more important the less resources you have in the first place.
After all if couple new PvP maps won't solve the issue with the popularity of PvP and from what I've gathered the problem most people have with PvP isn't the lack of maps then those resources have been wasted.
STO can't really do what FF14 does, which is pretty much have a whole PvP specific set of abilities, because then we'd have people ranting about how they can't use their own builds in PvP that they worked so hard on.
We can't really just duplicate everything and give separate PvE and PvP stats because that will more than double the size of the database. While some abilities do have stipulation regarding their effectiveness against players vs NPCs... the disparity between casual and PvPer can be measured in lightyears.
And we can't just use premade PvP ships because people want to fly their own ships. Anyone who was around when Battle of the Binary Stars came out remembers how people were complaining over a simple cosmetic change to their ships. Its their same ships, with the same builds, but they took on the appearance of a DSC era ship for that one TFO. And that was more than enough to cause some people to rage as if they were taken out of their own ships and put into a Cryptic build. (admittedly Cryptic builds tend to be a bit iffy, but that's beside the point.)
So literally... its a case of Cryptic cannot win on this one. No matter what they do, it is not what is wanted or capable of being done.
Yea that's pretty much true too. Everyone wants their own particular stick to be the best, and anything that can counter it is OP and needs to be nerfed. And most of the time its whatever the current Meta is that wants potential counters nerfed. There was a time where this game was basically Escorts Online, where Escorts dominated. Then the Meta changed. Currently... I don't even know what the Meta is but its still kinda revolving around the concept of "it cannot hurt you if it is already dead". Which, unfortunately, in a PvP setting those kinds of builds just dominate. Whoever shoots first wins because 9 times out of 10... the target dies INSTANTLY since its a build designed for targets with vastly higher HP pools than what Players have access to.
And I don't know about you, but getting vaped without even being able to fire a shot is not fun. Feels more like EVE level ganking at that point. Why bother?
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Not boom....probably never will be a boom, because the system afaik is hard-coded to apply across every toon on the account. The bonuses are not applied contextually like equipment is either. They are always 'on.
The arena is the same situation... anyone seen a working score board in 10 years ? lol Those maps used have the score board in the corner. It doesn't follow their current code conventions and they haven't been able to figure out how to fix it.
With PvP its a complete rebuild or nothing. That is the issue. Cryptic would have to dedicate some actual real labour to the project. Which is unlikely.
Thank you for making it easier for Cryptic to say, "Naah. We're not doing that. Because reasons."
The new maps suggestion is a starting point. A. Starting. Point. A place to begin addressing the many corrections which will be required to bring PvP back into STO as a viable part of the game. And a thirteen year old game will probably sunset long before most of them could be implemented.
If you're that keen on Space PvP please go and play EVE.
Not trying to stop anyone from making suggestions or shooting people down. Just sharing some reality. This was asked for 10 years ago. This is a 14 year old game now. The devs at the time agreed. They actually got on our vent server and talked to us directly. They said sure first we are going to fix Kerrat. Then weeks went by then months went by. The only answer we from a dev that no longer worked there was... the code is a mess no way its happening without a 100% re write. Which said dev suggested and was told NO. And that was a long time ago.
Hey perhaps the people at Cryptic are now more capable... or have different management that might agree to spending some more resources. I am simply sharing some history. It seems its really not possible to just add a new arena map... or for that matter even make minor changes to the existing ones and maps like kerrat. When they tried they broke it more then it already was. They gave us warping borg, and broken score boards trying to tweak it.
So ask for minor adjustments if you like... but if you really want them to do something you will have to push an overhaul because as I understand it on their end that is pretty much the only way to do it. The PVP code predates the games launch, it was rushed and I don't know all the nuance that makes a PITA. Be it noting, or not respecting global settings or whatever its just not in a state where they can easily add too it.