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So a franz joseph design appears in SNW
nixie50
Member Posts: 1,332 Arc User
Odds that we will see in game?? For those who have not seen it, it's a take on the Saladin class destroyer/scout
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Link to the image there BTW
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/5/51/USS_Archer.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/912?cb=20220505143417&path-prefix=en
Mem Alpha doesn't seem to like hot linking, so it's probably better to link the page it's from instead: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Archer_(NCC-627)
The issue was ownership of the design. The original Hermes/Saladin design fell under the same umbrella as the Federation, Larson, Nelson, and Loknar classes. Franz Joseph owned and only appearing in a technical manual. The reason they also appeared in a couple movies as diagrams is because they used those images for the screens on the Bridge. Other than that they were pretty much off limits due to legal reasons. Same reason we don't have the Kzinti in game.
Now that we've seen a modern take on a Hermes/Saladin in SNW, it is POSSIBLE that its fair game for Cryptic.
CBS does not own the Saladin class, nor do they own the original Hermes class, though Paramount Pictures may have named a different ship the Hermes class. The single-engine Saladin heavy destroyer, the Hermes long-range-sensor scout, Ptolemy tug, and Federation-class three engine dreadnaught are all owned by Franz Joeseph Designs.
The funny thing is that all of them have appeared in canon, but just as line drawings and floorplans on the various secondary screens.
CBS is actually more likely to be able to license the Wanderer from FASA to STO for use in the game than they are to be able to do that with the Franz Joseph ships because according to the wording of the license FASA was working under Paramount had joint-rights to things like ships and whatnot (though there was something unusual enough about it that Paramount was hesitant to actually use it to any real extent, though I don't remember exactly what it was).
> I'd ask them to give us the ship but it'd almost certainly be shoved in a lockbox
>
> Link to the image there BTW
> https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/5/51/USS_Archer.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/912?cb=20220505143417&path-prefix=en
Wow cool! I wish the bussard was TOS red instead of Kelvin blue. But cool ship overall!
Is this Franz Joseph (sounds like a german emperor) supposed to be well known?
Either way, the one nacelle designs look odd in my opinion, but as the saying goes"your millage may vary".
Franz Joseph designed several popular, non-canon ships such as the Federation class Dreadnaught that would appear in the old tabletop Starfleet Battles. The designs also appeared in the Starfleet Technical Manual, which had a few pages used for displays in TMP and Wrath of Khan, so ships like the Federation and Saladin are ambiguously canon via schematics.
https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Fleet_Technical_Manual
However, the Franz Joseph designs are in the same boat as the Vesta class, owned by the designer and not CBS and only appeared in books. That is why Cryptic has not been able to impliment the much requested Federation Class Dreadnaught for TOS Feds.
The inclusion of a Hermes class, which shares the same design but is smaller than a Saladin class, in the pilot for Strange New Worlds could mean that a deal was made with Franz Joseph, allowing for at least some of his designs to be remade for SNW, and thus fully canonized. Which in turn means fair game for STO.
I remember how the Devs were saying it was a legal headache to get permission to make the Vesta when it first came out because not only did they have to negotiate with CBS, but the owner of the Vesta design as well.
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True, it is considerably different from the Franz Joseph Designs version aesthetics wise, though I am not sure it would qualify 25% different to a judge (though the two ships have very little resemblance to me except for overall general shape).
The Franz Joseph Hermes-class was made with all Constitution-class parts in the classic googie style which included Euler spiral curves and golden-ratio angles and proportions, and it had the same (though slightly more grayish) white ceramic coating over the armored hull. The only noticeable difference to the saucer was that the deflector dish was swivel mounted on a stalk that took up most of the apex of the ventral sensor dome. Overall it has a clean look with crisp lines just like the TOS Enterprise.
The NuTrek Hermies-class has a rather blunt, stamped sheet-metal look, in fact the saucer sort of resembles an old-time trashcan lid right down to the galvanized finish (whoever did the azteching must never have seen one unless they actually wanted to have it look silly, because it looks exactly like the kind of pattern a very rushed galvanized coating has).
The whole ship exterior is made with a distinctly art deco/streamline moderne aesthetic instead of the googie of the FJD version. It appears to lack a dish-style deflector though it looks like it has a pit-type deflector in the front edge of the oval ventral dome.
The neck is vaguely 'U' shape with two curved, spindly uprights between the nacelle and the saucer. The nacelle itself has a low ridge along top of it, and a blue bussard with a shock-needle in the center like the nacelles in the first and second TOS pilot episodes. Except for the ridge along the top, the nacelles themselves are the same tapering classic streamline moderne style as the ones the SNW Enterprise sports.
So, to me at least, the ships are not very similar at all but like I said a judge might not see it that way in an IP dispute.
yea, even the Disco-prise looks like it's made from cheap sheet metal or something. The designers and staff must think all ship building is gonna remain the same post 1950, it seems. Funny how they say the connecting structs were so spindly and weak looking in TOS, yet they made it look even more fragile in these new 'visual reboots'. Irony.
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Unknown. Could it be a one off deal with him or does this open the door to others he designed.
Also I have no problem with the Atlas class. It looks like the granddaddy of the Command Battlecruisers.
The picture you posted is of the original Franz Joseph Designs Hermes-class and is the one most people think of as the Hermes. The other one (the streamline moderne one that looks like a trashcan lid) is the one that CBS just canonized in Strange New Worlds by way of Una's over-automated destroyer-scout, the USS Archer.
While I like the look of the original more than the new one, the way the canon and IP works the SNW Hermies class will almost certainly be the official version from now on, and STO will probably still not have access to the original.
Thought that childish tug of war between CBS, paramont and whomever was settled.
And I STILL wanna know WHY a Saladin is OKAY to use in ST Fleet Command.
What is the actual crew complement for that size?
Unknown, but I'd wager 100-150 for normal staffing, considering that a Connie has a crew complement of around 400. It's also known that you can run a Connie with a staff of five, as long as "the energizer's bypassed like a Christmas tree".
Star Fleet Command can use the Saladin and the other Franz Joseph Designs ships because it is a spinoff of Star Fleet Battles, which uses a license from FJD, not CBS.
It is a sort of Red/Blue situation in a way, STO can use stuff from CBS without extra expense but not from FJD, while SFC can use FJD stuff but would have to negotiate with CBS separately and pay extra to use anything except the Constitution class from the CBS library.
Warp Nacelles only work in pairs.
The original premise by Matt Jeffries was that they created a field BETWEEN them that formed the warp bubble.
The area between the two had to be clear for this to work and this is borne out with ALL the original ship designs such as the Klingon D7, Romulan Bird of Prey and even the Class F Shuttle.
The only exception to this was the Class J vessel Aurora {the kit-bashed Tholian looking version} featured in "The Way to Eden", but it was late in the production season and I figure the modeling team was given like twelve minutes to come up with something unique and exciting.
Even the first movies adhered to this convention, but as time went on, I guess the designers forgot or stopped caring about it.
{I'm looking at YOU Star Trek III Romulan Bird of Prey that got changed at the very last minute to a Klingon design because the script changed the villains from Romulans to Klingons in the eleventh hour and they didn't take or have the time/money to come up with a new model. They didn't even change the Romulan green paint job with the red bird of prey markings.}
Add to this the fact that in 1975, there was almost no merchandise for adult fans of the show, the focus being on kids.
Franz dropped a very professional looking product into this vacuum and this accounts for it's enduring popularity.
{That and he even included sewing patterns so people could make their own Starfleet uniforms...}
CBS/Paramount even used his designs for monitor displays in some of the subsequent films, so everyone figured they were at least somewhat cannon.
Still, {and I stress this} in my opinion, odd numbers of nacelles look...wrong to me and violate the original intent of the wacky idea of how warp drive actually works.
The Kelvin and Reboot Connie feel like abominations to me, but J.J.'s contempt for established design convention is well documented.
{A Klingon D4 the size of a shuttle? A smaller shuttle bay on the Enterprise with DOZENS of shuttles parked inside? The man has no engineering sense at all, Mystery Box indeed!}
They obviously paid fees that were agreeable to both parties (IE the Franz Joseph estate, and William Shatner.) Hell, if STO had the funds available - they could probably get Shatner (money 'heals' a number of insulsts) - Stewart and Spiner; but they have a budget.
^^^
FYI - that 'convention' only came about when Gene Roddenberry spoke with Franz Joseph (because they wanted to show a version of his Hermes Scout Class design in ST:TMP for a shot - they still have audio only communications to a Scout class ship in the film) - and GR found that Paramount had made the deal where FJ OWNED the rights and GR would have to pay him a royalty fee to use the design...
Then suddenly it was "Federation Ships ALWAYS have TWO Nacelles..."
(Although ultimately Paramount did pony up fees to FJ to use his schematics for some of its computer displays in TMP and later Star Trek films and productions.)
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according to the TM 20 officers 180/175 crew depending on destroyer or scout. apparently the extra 5 bodies are torpedo guys, since the difference is 2 phaser bank and 2 torpedo banks