Assuming the Dev's want to take this on, it would be interesting if instead of bog fleets, we get a massive size increase to the Cube and just have a single cube that requires all 5 players to coordinate to destroy. Special nodes to hit,, on all 6 sides, while the cube picks your ships off one by one.
The music should be more mennacing and have that V-ger/borg twang.
The borg beam weapons are cool too, would be nice to see those used by the borg, seeing as we actually got them in the bog lock box.
Also, return to random cubes roaming sector space.
The borg deserve a revamp as they are a key part of the game.
Could be very interesting.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,829Community Moderator
As for overwhelming adapted shields, it would depend on if the Borg negate or absorb the energy. Considering the Cubes are capable of immense power generation, if they simple negate the energy, they can probably just sit there and have cake and tea. If the energy is absorbed, then the attackers would have a chance to cause an overload, however, remember, Wolf 359 didn't go so well with 40 ships attacking simultaniously. Numbers would only count for something if every ship fired on different rotating AND random frequencies as shown in First Contact.
Cubes also have the 'Death Star' weaknesses too. They struggle greatly with close combat, as Voyager caused alot of trouble and caused more damage than 40 ships did at Wolf 359, even the Delta Flyer was effective (though swatted eventually).
There's a problem with this comparison as well.
Wolf 359 was the first major battle between the Federation and the Borg. They knew NOTHING of the Borg, and also apparently tried a wave style attack in an attempt to wear down the enemy with fresh ships when already engaged ships weakened. At least that's how I heard Wolf 359 went down.
That tactic changed with Sector 001 where Starfleet just blitz'd the Cube with everything they could gather in the region in one go rather than wave attack. The only "wave" to arrive later was Enterprise-E ignoring orders to stay out of it.
The reason Voyager caused more damage was because by the time of Voyager's launch, Starfleet knew more about the Borg. Not only that, I believe Seven of Nine was aboard at that time, and her knowledge of the Borg greatly helped in fighting the Cube, not unlike Picard's knowledge of the Cube in First Contact.
Again, its a case of the opposition force adapting to the Borg.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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I've played a bunch of dranuur gauntlets and the Borg are close to easiest enemy you can get. I'm not saying, that the Borg should be impossible to destroy, but is silly that breen give me more trouble, than the scourge of milky way...
Whats interesting is that the Borg only adapt on the ground and not in space. Then again I can imagine trying to change the weapon frequency mid flight would be cancer so... XD
Ummm, the borg adapted their shields to species 10026 weapons in the Voyager episode "Dark Frontier"
The Borg Queen's vessel and the two escort Borg cubes arrive at the Species 10026 planet to begin assimilation. The Borg Queen manipulates Seven into suggesting a way to adapt to Species 10026 weapons fire, a modulating phaser pulse that can penetrate Borg deflector shields. Initially Seven refuses to provide a strategy stating, "You are the Borg, you tell me." The Queen does not respond; instead, she lets the aliens bombard the Borg diamond until Seven becomes alarmed. She then calmly looks at Seven and repeats her question: How does she propose they adapt? Not wanting to die, Seven instinctively suggests a strategy. The Queen smiles, agrees with Seven's assessment and communicates it to the drones for implementation. Immediately the weapons' fire is rendered completely ineffective.
And what I just described is usually given as a reason why kinetic weapons can't be countered by them - but I doubt there are good reasons why only kinetic effects would work like this. Fire, charged particles, radiation or bullets: damage is damage and each of them will keep having SOME detrimental effect to whatever protection they build. Unless they can just completely change the entire composition of what they're wearing and shielding, but that makes no sense and indeed comes closer to magic tricks than actual realistic solutions.
Momentum is the reason why kinetic attacks work this way, as bullets or other physical attacks are most likely gonna have more momentum then your typical "energy" weapon and momentum cannot be destroyed only moved so as a result a shield might block a .50 cal shot but the generator would get ripped of from its mountings thanks to momentum transfer and that would not be very healthy to the drone.
In the show they could adapt to kinetic attacks like bullets without trouble, the tommygun only worked because up until that part of the movie no one used slugthrowers against them yet, what they had trouble with was low-velocity attacks (like they could not adapt to being crushed or falling long distances), and handheld bladed attacks.
Even a M2 style .50cal would stop working before long (the energy at the emitter of one of the TNG season one phaser-SMG 'rifles' is the same as the combined muzzle energies of a quad .50cal M2 antiaircraft turret) so if anything momentum might push them back a little, like a firehose, but like a ship's shield it would probably spread the force out across the whole surface instead of just causing the generator alone to buck back.
In the show they could adapt to kinetic attacks like bullets without trouble,
you of course have on screen examples of them doing this?
Yes, in First Contact, after Picard machinegunned the Borg in the holodeck he threw the tommygun down and Lilly said something about taking it with them, he muttered something about it not able to leave the holodeck and that they Borg would have adapted to it anyway (it has been too long since I saw the movie to remember the exact words). Also, the first one was killed in a quick spray but the last one took hosing down at close range to drop, just like what happens with phasers as they adapt to them.
I don't remember Picard saying such a thing, or Lily asking. It doesn't seem to be part of the dialogue, which I quickly checked (look for 'Nicky' with ctrl-f to get to the right part).
Something that should be kept in mind btw, is that Picard was firing holographic bullets. One might wonder how these work anyway and whether they're comparable to normal bullets, rockets, stones or whatever. A hologram, after all, is merely a projection. Photons held in a containment field. Are there any physical components, any particles involved here besides those photons? I wouldn't think so, also because The Doctor could disappear into nothingness (or, actually, you'd just stop seeing him once his program was shut down).
I'm not entirely sure what the implications are, but I'd argue that holographic bullets aren't all that different from other weapons that use charged particles. Which, in turn, would imply that there's little reason why the Borg should be able to adapt to phasers, but not to holographic bullets.
As for overwhelming adapted shields, it would depend on if the Borg negate or absorb the energy. Considering the Cubes are capable of immense power generation, if they simple negate the energy, they can probably just sit there and have cake and tea. If the energy is absorbed, then the attackers would have a chance to cause an overload, however, remember, Wolf 359 didn't go so well with 40 ships attacking simultaniously. Numbers would only count for something if every ship fired on different rotating AND random frequencies as shown in First Contact.
Cubes also have the 'Death Star' weaknesses too. They struggle greatly with close combat, as Voyager caused alot of trouble and caused more damage than 40 ships did at Wolf 359, even the Delta Flyer was effective (though swatted eventually).
There's a problem with this comparison as well.
Wolf 359 was the first major battle between the Federation and the Borg. They knew NOTHING of the Borg, and also apparently tried a wave style attack in an attempt to wear down the enemy with fresh ships when already engaged ships weakened. At least that's how I heard Wolf 359 went down.
That tactic changed with Sector 001 where Starfleet just blitz'd the Cube with everything they could gather in the region in one go rather than wave attack. The only "wave" to arrive later was Enterprise-E ignoring orders to stay out of it.
The reason Voyager caused more damage was because by the time of Voyager's launch, Starfleet knew more about the Borg. Not only that, I believe Seven of Nine was aboard at that time, and her knowledge of the Borg greatly helped in fighting the Cube, not unlike Picard's knowledge of the Cube in First Contact.
Again, its a case of the opposition force adapting to the Borg.
Didn't it take 2 Janeways to completely destroy the Borg.
Another factor is that if Borg could not adapt to slugthrowers, then why not equip ant-Borg arms lockers on starships and bases filled with tommyguns and other firearms?
Another factor is that if Borg could not adapt to slugthrowers, then why not equip ant-Borg arms lockers on starships and bases filled with tommyguns and other firearms?
Probably a symptom of technological advancement. Its primitive technology, and far more damaging to the environment (aka consoles and stuff). I don't know. But we did see Starfleet develop a projectile weapon to deal with environments that rendered hand phasers inoperable (TR-116). What happened? They developed a phaser that could overcome that problem and rendered the TR-116 pointless.
While I would agree that having supply of projectile weapons would probably be a good idea, the problem is ammo storage and the fact that it is a niche weapon at this point in time, really only usable against the Borg and doesn't have the utility of a phaser. Its not like in Halo where the UNSC was basically "if it ain't broke don't fix it" with projectile tech advancement.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Well, without posting any spoilers, the direction 'Picard' has taken with the Borg somewhat conflicts with what we see of them in STO.
That is not surprising since a lot of the new stuff conflicts with the traditional stuff. Kurtzman was never any good with building on someone else's work realistically and staying consistent with established continuity/lore.
Comments
The music should be more mennacing and have that V-ger/borg twang.
The borg beam weapons are cool too, would be nice to see those used by the borg, seeing as we actually got them in the bog lock box.
Also, return to random cubes roaming sector space.
The borg deserve a revamp as they are a key part of the game.
Could be very interesting.
There's a problem with this comparison as well.
Wolf 359 was the first major battle between the Federation and the Borg. They knew NOTHING of the Borg, and also apparently tried a wave style attack in an attempt to wear down the enemy with fresh ships when already engaged ships weakened. At least that's how I heard Wolf 359 went down.
That tactic changed with Sector 001 where Starfleet just blitz'd the Cube with everything they could gather in the region in one go rather than wave attack. The only "wave" to arrive later was Enterprise-E ignoring orders to stay out of it.
The reason Voyager caused more damage was because by the time of Voyager's launch, Starfleet knew more about the Borg. Not only that, I believe Seven of Nine was aboard at that time, and her knowledge of the Borg greatly helped in fighting the Cube, not unlike Picard's knowledge of the Cube in First Contact.
Again, its a case of the opposition force adapting to the Borg.
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colored text = mod mode
Oh I meant in the game haha
In the show they could adapt to kinetic attacks like bullets without trouble, the tommygun only worked because up until that part of the movie no one used slugthrowers against them yet, what they had trouble with was low-velocity attacks (like they could not adapt to being crushed or falling long distances), and handheld bladed attacks.
Even a M2 style .50cal would stop working before long (the energy at the emitter of one of the TNG season one phaser-SMG 'rifles' is the same as the combined muzzle energies of a quad .50cal M2 antiaircraft turret) so if anything momentum might push them back a little, like a firehose, but like a ship's shield it would probably spread the force out across the whole surface instead of just causing the generator alone to buck back.
you of course have on screen examples of them doing this?
Yes, in First Contact, after Picard machinegunned the Borg in the holodeck he threw the tommygun down and Lilly said something about taking it with them, he muttered something about it not able to leave the holodeck and that they Borg would have adapted to it anyway (it has been too long since I saw the movie to remember the exact words). Also, the first one was killed in a quick spray but the last one took hosing down at close range to drop, just like what happens with phasers as they adapt to them.
http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie8.html
Something that should be kept in mind btw, is that Picard was firing holographic bullets. One might wonder how these work anyway and whether they're comparable to normal bullets, rockets, stones or whatever. A hologram, after all, is merely a projection. Photons held in a containment field. Are there any physical components, any particles involved here besides those photons? I wouldn't think so, also because The Doctor could disappear into nothingness (or, actually, you'd just stop seeing him once his program was shut down).
I'm not entirely sure what the implications are, but I'd argue that holographic bullets aren't all that different from other weapons that use charged particles. Which, in turn, would imply that there's little reason why the Borg should be able to adapt to phasers, but not to holographic bullets.
Didn't it take 2 Janeways to completely destroy the Borg.
Probably a symptom of technological advancement. Its primitive technology, and far more damaging to the environment (aka consoles and stuff). I don't know. But we did see Starfleet develop a projectile weapon to deal with environments that rendered hand phasers inoperable (TR-116). What happened? They developed a phaser that could overcome that problem and rendered the TR-116 pointless.
While I would agree that having supply of projectile weapons would probably be a good idea, the problem is ammo storage and the fact that it is a niche weapon at this point in time, really only usable against the Borg and doesn't have the utility of a phaser. Its not like in Halo where the UNSC was basically "if it ain't broke don't fix it" with projectile tech advancement.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
That is not surprising since a lot of the new stuff conflicts with the traditional stuff. Kurtzman was never any good with building on someone else's work realistically and staying consistent with established continuity/lore.