I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
In 1997, after running for only two years, Ultima Online released 'Kingdom Reborn', which included an entirely new game engine. It was free to all players.
In 2010, Square Enix re-wrote Final Fantasy XIV v.2 from square one after the fiasco of FFXIV v.1
They wrote it in secret.
In two years.
While continuing to patch v.1 regularly to try and fix some of the ridiculous problems it had.
Don't say 'it can't be done'. It has been done. More than once.
However In 2010 Square Enix DIDN'T rewrite the engine, they re-did the game is the SAME engine, using pretty much the same art assets. (And that Engine still has major database issues that hobble them in adding or updating certain functions. The original FFXIV issues weren't caused by the engine per se - it was the design and implementation of many of the original game systems. But again, they spent two years redesigning their game in the SAME engine.
As for Ultima Online - "A Kingdome Reborn" was released in 2007 - not 1999. Also they just updated the player CLIENT, not the underlying engine.
It wasn't exactly the same engine, but yes they moved from one descendent of Crystal Tools to Lumos, which is itself just a different and somewhat more radical and advanced branch of the Crystal engine line that natively handles scalability and other MMO issues better than the kludges the game was running on before that. Their assets (many of which were new anyway) and even a significant amount of the game code itself could be ported over with just the refactoring that they were going to put in the first time around but it missed the deadline for that.
In short, it wasn't a total rewrite, it was a major refactor, and the timeframe was about right for that all things considered. On the other hand, there are no public releases of the Cryptic engine like there was with Crystal so there are no "cousins" to the engine out there to port to, and going to something like Unreal or Unity would be essentially recreating STO almost from scratch, which would take longer.
Still it wasn't something trivial and is still causing issues to this day and that was 2 semi-related game engines, while the engine STO runs on isn't at all related to Unreal Engine 5 or what ever people want STO to swap to.
Yes it's technically possible for STO to swap engines, however would it be even close being worth the cost, probably not.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,829Community Moderator
It would basically be making a game from scratch, borderline STO2 talk.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
You have no idea what you are talking about. UO launched in 1997 so you couldn't even get that right. kingdom reborn was in 2007 and had over six years of full time development with an absolutely massive team and funding
Nobody writes an entire mmo engine and game in two years with little funding and a tiny team. Its never been done, never will be done and cannot be done
Hmmm...you're right. I have no idea how I got my dates so far off on Ultima Online. I suppose I could blame lack of sleep and pain medications...I legitimately did try to look things up and verify my dates...hell, I'm a Charter Subscriber to UO. So I pooched that one...my bad. Not sure Origin could afford a 'massive team and funding', but I don't have those numbers.
My information on FFXIV is correct, however. Complete rewrite, ground up, two years. And while Square Enix is a large company, and may have a larger wallet, they did not have a -huge- team (305 in-house, 17 outsourced, based on 2.0 in-game credits). Their team numbers are about average for an A-List MMO. There's whole documentaries on the Realm Reborn project.
"Little funding, tiny team"...those are excuses used by people and companies who have bought into the line that it takes huge amounts of people and money to do anything. It doesn't. It takes dedicated people, and time. Apple started as three guys in a garage.
The game makes money, or it wouldn't be active. MMOs don't operate on a loss leader dynamic. Re-invest where it does the most good, for the longest amount of time. Step away from the lockboxes and the promotional ships for a bit...pretty sure the players as a group wouldn't mind, if there's a new engine with fewer glaring bugs in it for them.
And while I don't know the specifics of Gearbox/Cryptic's licensing arrangement with Paramount/CBS, I do know this: IP licensing is -never- permanent, and is -always- subject to review by the IP owner. The instant a 'little funded tiny team' comes up with a better engine, and can show it off? That license becomes the prize.
You either keep up, or get dropped for someone who can. Nature of the game, unless you own the IP outright.
You do realize that "not huge" team is still like a dozen times larger than STO has, right? Last I heard, Cryptic has a grand total of two programmers working on the game. No, Cryptic cannot pull a Realm Reborn.
sure they could. they choose not to. (also the parent company chooses not to) either way, its pathetic to use the "small team, many hats" over and over as an excuse all the time. it gets old.
they cant, or dont want to fix the myriad of bugs, for all types of excuses, so at this juncture, a rebuild on a new engine seems more logical and productive than to continually divert owning the issues that plaque the game.
i know it wont happen, however.
Again, they do not have the resources that SE has for FFXIV. You're literally suggesting a company that has a grand total of two programmers on the project can do what a company with dozens did. If they don't have the people, they don't have the people. I don't see why you're calling it an "excuse" when it's physical reality.
In 1997, after running for only two years, Ultima Online released 'Kingdom Reborn', which included an entirely new game engine. It was free to all players.
In 2010, Square Enix re-wrote Final Fantasy XIV v.2 from square one after the fiasco of FFXIV v.1
They wrote it in secret.
In two years.
While continuing to patch v.1 regularly to try and fix some of the ridiculous problems it had.
Don't say 'it can't be done'. It has been done. More than once.
However In 2010 Square Enix DIDN'T rewrite the engine, they re-did the game is the SAME engine, using pretty much the same art assets. (And that Engine still has major database issues that hobble them in adding or updating certain functions. The original FFXIV issues weren't caused by the engine per se - it was the design and implementation of many of the original game systems. But again, they spent two years redesigning their game in the SAME engine.
As for Ultima Online - "A Kingdome Reborn" was released in 2007 - not 1999. Also they just updated the player CLIENT, not the underlying engine.
It wasn't exactly the same engine, but yes they moved from one descendent of Crystal Tools to Lumos, which is itself just a different and somewhat more radical and advanced branch of the Crystal engine line that natively handles scalability and other MMO issues better than the kludges the game was running on before that. Their assets (many of which were new anyway) and even a significant amount of the game code itself could be ported over with just the refactoring that they were going to put in the first time around but it missed the deadline for that.
In short, it wasn't a total rewrite, it was a major refactor, and the timeframe was about right for that all things considered. On the other hand, there are no public releases of the Cryptic engine like there was with Crystal so there are no "cousins" to the engine out there to port to, and going to something like Unreal or Unity would be essentially recreating STO almost from scratch, which would take longer.
^^^
And you could say the Cryptic Engine has had a similar level of refactoring over the years. The player client certainly did when they took it from 32-bit to 64-bit. The fact it - the engine all Cryptic games run on has also had a number of refactors and upgrades since 2009 (and the 2009 version was also a rewrite of the 2003 version of the engine they used when they launched City of Heroes.)
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
You have no idea what you are talking about. UO launched in 1997 so you couldn't even get that right. kingdom reborn was in 2007 and had over six years of full time development with an absolutely massive team and funding
Nobody writes an entire mmo engine and game in two years with little funding and a tiny team. Its never been done, never will be done and cannot be done
Hmmm...you're right. I have no idea how I got my dates so far off on Ultima Online. I suppose I could blame lack of sleep and pain medications...I legitimately did try to look things up and verify my dates...hell, I'm a Charter Subscriber to UO. So I pooched that one...my bad. Not sure Origin could afford a 'massive team and funding', but I don't have those numbers.
My information on FFXIV is correct, however. Complete rewrite, ground up, two years. And while Square Enix is a large company, and may have a larger wallet, they did not have a -huge- team (305 in-house, 17 outsourced, based on 2.0 in-game credits). Their team numbers are about average for an A-List MMO. There's whole documentaries on the Realm Reborn project.
"Little funding, tiny team"...those are excuses used by people and companies who have bought into the line that it takes huge amounts of people and money to do anything. It doesn't. It takes dedicated people, and time. Apple started as three guys in a garage.
The game makes money, or it wouldn't be active. MMOs don't operate on a loss leader dynamic. Re-invest where it does the most good, for the longest amount of time. Step away from the lockboxes and the promotional ships for a bit...pretty sure the players as a group wouldn't mind, if there's a new engine with fewer glaring bugs in it for them.
And while I don't know the specifics of Gearbox/Cryptic's licensing arrangement with Paramount/CBS, I do know this: IP licensing is -never- permanent, and is -always- subject to review by the IP owner. The instant a 'little funded tiny team' comes up with a better engine, and can show it off? That license becomes the prize.
You either keep up, or get dropped for someone who can. Nature of the game, unless you own the IP outright.
You do realize that "not huge" team is still like a dozen times larger than STO has, right? Last I heard, Cryptic has a grand total of two programmers working on the game. No, Cryptic cannot pull a Realm Reborn.
sure they could. they choose not to. (also the parent company chooses not to) either way, its pathetic to use the "small team, many hats" over and over as an excuse all the time. it gets old.
they cant, or dont want to fix the myriad of bugs, for all types of excuses, so at this juncture, a rebuild on a new engine seems more logical and productive than to continually divert owning the issues that plaque the game.
i know it wont happen, however.
Again, they do not have the resources that SE has for FFXIV. You're literally suggesting a company that has a grand total of two programmers on the project can do what a company with dozens did. If they don't have the people, they don't have the people. I don't see why you're calling it an "excuse" when it's physical reality.
because it is an excuse. they can certainly hire more people. it not like they dont make money. they have resources, they choose not to use them. thus, they make excuses for everything.
and i am certain they adore people such as yourself who always come to the rescue on their behalf.
my viewpoint is mine, it shall not change.
Unless you have inside knowledge of Cryptic's budget, you don't know that. The game being profitable is not proof they have the funds to hire more staff.
And BTW, you clearly haven't seen many of my forum posts here if you think I'm the type to "always come to the rescue" on Cryptic's behalf. On the contrary, the vast majority of my posts here have been extremely critical of them. But this? You are reasoning without sufficient evidence, to put it mildly.
You have no idea what you are talking about. UO launched in 1997 so you couldn't even get that right. kingdom reborn was in 2007 and had over six years of full time development with an absolutely massive team and funding
Nobody writes an entire mmo engine and game in two years with little funding and a tiny team. Its never been done, never will be done and cannot be done
Hmmm...you're right. I have no idea how I got my dates so far off on Ultima Online. I suppose I could blame lack of sleep and pain medications...I legitimately did try to look things up and verify my dates...hell, I'm a Charter Subscriber to UO. So I pooched that one...my bad. Not sure Origin could afford a 'massive team and funding', but I don't have those numbers.
My information on FFXIV is correct, however. Complete rewrite, ground up, two years. And while Square Enix is a large company, and may have a larger wallet, they did not have a -huge- team (305 in-house, 17 outsourced, based on 2.0 in-game credits). Their team numbers are about average for an A-List MMO. There's whole documentaries on the Realm Reborn project.
"Little funding, tiny team"...those are excuses used by people and companies who have bought into the line that it takes huge amounts of people and money to do anything. It doesn't. It takes dedicated people, and time. Apple started as three guys in a garage.
The game makes money, or it wouldn't be active. MMOs don't operate on a loss leader dynamic. Re-invest where it does the most good, for the longest amount of time. Step away from the lockboxes and the promotional ships for a bit...pretty sure the players as a group wouldn't mind, if there's a new engine with fewer glaring bugs in it for them.
And while I don't know the specifics of Gearbox/Cryptic's licensing arrangement with Paramount/CBS, I do know this: IP licensing is -never- permanent, and is -always- subject to review by the IP owner. The instant a 'little funded tiny team' comes up with a better engine, and can show it off? That license becomes the prize.
You either keep up, or get dropped for someone who can. Nature of the game, unless you own the IP outright.
You do realize that "not huge" team is still like a dozen times larger than STO has, right? Last I heard, Cryptic has a grand total of two programmers working on the game. No, Cryptic cannot pull a Realm Reborn.
sure they could. they choose not to. (also the parent company chooses not to) either way, its pathetic to use the "small team, many hats" over and over as an excuse all the time. it gets old.
they cant, or dont want to fix the myriad of bugs, for all types of excuses, so at this juncture, a rebuild on a new engine seems more logical and productive than to continually divert owning the issues that plaque the game.
i know it wont happen, however.
Again, they do not have the resources that SE has for FFXIV. You're literally suggesting a company that has a grand total of two programmers on the project can do what a company with dozens did. If they don't have the people, they don't have the people. I don't see why you're calling it an "excuse" when it's physical reality.
Okay - but it isn't just about resources. SE had the balls to step back and admit that 1.0 was a damn mess. THAT is where improvements start.
Not burying your head in the sand and saying "nah, everything is fine - carry on".
Should be noted STO, while it has its problems, isn't the nigh-irredeemable mess that the initial launch of FFXIV was.
California class with be coming May 10th along with the Stormfall release
Turning off other players visuals in space is an ongoing conversation, big issue is finding a way to turn things off, but still getting the visual information you need to know whats going on.
We will have access to the new bridge. Kael isn't sure if it will be immediately at release, or come later like the the Klingon bridge.
The conversation last week about changing what the Dominion Wingmen ships look like started a longer conversation between Jeremy and Thomas after last week's stream. Kael isn't sure what conclusion they came to regarding if you can change them, what options you would have if they do, or if they get changed to look like the legendary Dom ship model permanently.
Tutorial revamp coming out May 10th alongside Stormfall release
The playable Farpoint alien ship was originally the winter ship before they used the Eisenberg class. Kael isn't sure how its going to be released now but he thinks it likely to be an event ship.
No ETA on when any removed missions will be coming back.
More dil sinks are coming, Keal isn't sure of the ETA for them though.
They are putting more stuff in the Phoenix Box. Kael can't say when, but he has an idea on what that would happen.
My thoughts on the 2nd Point (above) is why don't they just make more of the VFX spam, 50-75% more transparent (depending how big & obtrusive it is; then your still aware it's there, yet can see partially thru it far more so it's less blinding like some!
That alone wouldn't even require redesigning how the FX look, or SETUP a VFX Transparency Setting on Graphics (tab) that moves between 15-85% based on everyone's individual preference.
You have no idea what you are talking about. UO launched in 1997 so you couldn't even get that right. kingdom reborn was in 2007 and had over six years of full time development with an absolutely massive team and funding
Nobody writes an entire mmo engine and game in two years with little funding and a tiny team. Its never been done, never will be done and cannot be done
Hmmm...you're right. I have no idea how I got my dates so far off on Ultima Online. I suppose I could blame lack of sleep and pain medications...I legitimately did try to look things up and verify my dates...hell, I'm a Charter Subscriber to UO. So I pooched that one...my bad. Not sure Origin could afford a 'massive team and funding', but I don't have those numbers.
My information on FFXIV is correct, however. Complete rewrite, ground up, two years. And while Square Enix is a large company, and may have a larger wallet, they did not have a -huge- team (305 in-house, 17 outsourced, based on 2.0 in-game credits). Their team numbers are about average for an A-List MMO. There's whole documentaries on the Realm Reborn project.
"Little funding, tiny team"...those are excuses used by people and companies who have bought into the line that it takes huge amounts of people and money to do anything. It doesn't. It takes dedicated people, and time. Apple started as three guys in a garage.
The game makes money, or it wouldn't be active. MMOs don't operate on a loss leader dynamic. Re-invest where it does the most good, for the longest amount of time. Step away from the lockboxes and the promotional ships for a bit...pretty sure the players as a group wouldn't mind, if there's a new engine with fewer glaring bugs in it for them.
And while I don't know the specifics of Gearbox/Cryptic's licensing arrangement with Paramount/CBS, I do know this: IP licensing is -never- permanent, and is -always- subject to review by the IP owner. The instant a 'little funded tiny team' comes up with a better engine, and can show it off? That license becomes the prize.
You either keep up, or get dropped for someone who can. Nature of the game, unless you own the IP outright.
You do realize that "not huge" team is still like a dozen times larger than STO has, right? Last I heard, Cryptic has a grand total of two programmers working on the game. No, Cryptic cannot pull a Realm Reborn.
sure they could. they choose not to. (also the parent company chooses not to) either way, its pathetic to use the "small team, many hats" over and over as an excuse all the time. it gets old.
they cant, or dont want to fix the myriad of bugs, for all types of excuses, so at this juncture, a rebuild on a new engine seems more logical and productive than to continually divert owning the issues that plaque the game.
i know it wont happen, however.
Again, they do not have the resources that SE has for FFXIV. You're literally suggesting a company that has a grand total of two programmers on the project can do what a company with dozens did. If they don't have the people, they don't have the people. I don't see why you're calling it an "excuse" when it's physical reality.
Okay - but it isn't just about resources. SE had the balls to step back and admit that 1.0 was a damn mess. THAT is where improvements start.
Not burying your head in the sand and saying "nah, everything is fine - carry on".
Should be noted STO, while it has its problems, isn't the nigh-irredeemable mess that the initial launch of FFXIV was.
The game isn't. The engine is.
Were that the case, this game would be hemorrhaging players. Vast majority of bugs I've seen are minor annoyances; most of my issues stem from ill-conceived design choices (excessively high CPU kinetic damage, for example). And I still love the game.
no one knows the budget, not even you. but given the words from them, that the past year, was best on record ever for the game. also, given the powerpoint that was put out during the buyout, showed numbers. those statements, along with the numbers shown, would more than support additional staffing for the game.
Whoever said this would be cleaning out their desk if they said anything else. It has been said before but is worth repeating: PR announcements by mouthpieces with legal and/or employment obligations to say good things about the company are not a reliable source of factual data about how well any given business decision has played out.
And even IF it was the 'best year ever' financially...that may just mean - "Okay, we don't need to sunset it this year..." (and if STO is making 7 million while Neverwinter is making 22 million <--- Guess which game they'd devote more Dev resources and staff to - Hint: It won't be the game netting 7 million...)
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,829Community Moderator
Guys... can we get back on topic and stop discussing finances and resource allocation in Cryptic?
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
no one knows the budget, not even you. but given the words from them, that the past year, was best on record ever for the game. also, given the powerpoint that was put out during the buyout, showed numbers. those statements, along with the numbers shown, would more than support additional staffing for the game.
Whoever said this would be cleaning out their desk if they said anything else. It has been said before but is worth repeating: PR announcements by mouthpieces with legal and/or employment obligations to say good things about the company are not a reliable source of factual data about how well any given business decision has played out.
Whoever said it would almost certainly be lying if they said anything else considering the period they were talking about has the highest concurrency count average in the last five years by a wide margin according to the mmo-population site, so it isn't unreasonable to think it could really have been the most profitable year in the game's history.
It has pretty much fallen back into the regular average since then though, which might be a good reason to be careful about committing to potentially hugely expensive projects.
Comments
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
It wasn't exactly the same engine, but yes they moved from one descendent of Crystal Tools to Lumos, which is itself just a different and somewhat more radical and advanced branch of the Crystal engine line that natively handles scalability and other MMO issues better than the kludges the game was running on before that. Their assets (many of which were new anyway) and even a significant amount of the game code itself could be ported over with just the refactoring that they were going to put in the first time around but it missed the deadline for that.
In short, it wasn't a total rewrite, it was a major refactor, and the timeframe was about right for that all things considered. On the other hand, there are no public releases of the Cryptic engine like there was with Crystal so there are no "cousins" to the engine out there to port to, and going to something like Unreal or Unity would be essentially recreating STO almost from scratch, which would take longer.
Yes it's technically possible for STO to swap engines, however would it be even close being worth the cost, probably not.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Again, they do not have the resources that SE has for FFXIV. You're literally suggesting a company that has a grand total of two programmers on the project can do what a company with dozens did. If they don't have the people, they don't have the people. I don't see why you're calling it an "excuse" when it's physical reality.
And you could say the Cryptic Engine has had a similar level of refactoring over the years. The player client certainly did when they took it from 32-bit to 64-bit. The fact it - the engine all Cryptic games run on has also had a number of refactors and upgrades since 2009 (and the 2009 version was also a rewrite of the 2003 version of the engine they used when they launched City of Heroes.)
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Unless you have inside knowledge of Cryptic's budget, you don't know that. The game being profitable is not proof they have the funds to hire more staff.
And BTW, you clearly haven't seen many of my forum posts here if you think I'm the type to "always come to the rescue" on Cryptic's behalf. On the contrary, the vast majority of my posts here have been extremely critical of them. But this? You are reasoning without sufficient evidence, to put it mildly.
Should be noted STO, while it has its problems, isn't the nigh-irredeemable mess that the initial launch of FFXIV was.
My thoughts on the 2nd Point (above) is why don't they just make more of the VFX spam, 50-75% more transparent (depending how big & obtrusive it is; then your still aware it's there, yet can see partially thru it far more so it's less blinding like some!
That alone wouldn't even require redesigning how the FX look, or SETUP a VFX Transparency Setting on Graphics (tab) that moves between 15-85% based on everyone's individual preference.
Were that the case, this game would be hemorrhaging players. Vast majority of bugs I've seen are minor annoyances; most of my issues stem from ill-conceived design choices (excessively high CPU kinetic damage, for example). And I still love the game.
And even IF it was the 'best year ever' financially...that may just mean - "Okay, we don't need to sunset it this year..." (and if STO is making 7 million while Neverwinter is making 22 million <--- Guess which game they'd devote more Dev resources and staff to - Hint: It won't be the game netting 7 million...)
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Whoever said it would almost certainly be lying if they said anything else considering the period they were talking about has the highest concurrency count average in the last five years by a wide margin according to the mmo-population site, so it isn't unreasonable to think it could really have been the most profitable year in the game's history.
It has pretty much fallen back into the regular average since then though, which might be a good reason to be careful about committing to potentially hugely expensive projects.
Yes, by all means.. lets get back to people pretending they know anything about Game Engines.. that was hilarious!