Except that Picard left willingly? And even the reflection of Guinan said he could leave willingly. Not only that, Guinan herself was technically yanked out of there by the Enterprise-B back in the 23rd Century, thus her being able to run Ten Forward aboard the Enterprise-D.
Its not that you could never leave, its that most people don't WANT to leave.
Except that Picard left willingly? And even the reflection of Guinan said he could leave willingly. Not only that, Guinan herself was technically yanked out of there by the Enterprise-B back in the 23rd Century, thus her being able to run Ten Forward aboard the Enterprise-D.
Its not that you could never leave, its that most people don't WANT to leave.
well true, but that leaves a plot hole and a big one, how did his body survive the nexus energy, and if I was to create my own universe where would I put my self, ego says in control, and why we see refits in Star Trek Picard, because he hasn't seen the newest ships,
It's pretty obvious that Picard left the Nexus. This is like those claims that all characters die when they step on a transporter, and a transporter clone takes over. The show is very clear that this is not what happens, it's also very clear that Picard is not still in the Nexus.
And the timeline in PIC is Q's work. And Picard is very much not in control of it, neither literally nor figuratively
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
There is still quite a bit about the Nexus that is unknown. It doesn't seem to be inherrantly dangerous to organic life. Just ships. When Kirk was pulled in, there was no sign of injury or anything to him. Just the damage to the Enterprise-B. And again, when Soren succeeded in diverting the Nexus into Viridian III, when the energy swept across that mountain with him and Picard on it, there was no ill effects on either of them. They just got swept up like it was a fishing net.
It could very well be that the Nexus is a gateway of sorts. A volitile one towards ships, but not to living beings.
sorry I deal in real physics, and to be unexposed to the nexus energy unprotected a force that can rip ships apart, and yet Picard survives sorry plot hole and the ego fact is true Picard never left the nexus no matter wha you want there is no HUMAN way
Again... the Nexus is an unknown anomaly. Starfleet doesn't know how it works, and we've seen it in action in Generations.
Real Physics kinda go out the window when dealing with fantastic anomalies in Star Trek. Honestly I don't even know if Two Dimensional Life is possible, or time travel via slingshot around a star at faster than light speeds, or any of the various things that happen.
For all we know the Nexus realm is one influenced by pure thought and willpower alone. If someone wishes to leave, and to a certain place and time, then it is entirely possible. As Guinan said in there, Time has no meaning.
see the thing is that it was said in the movie that you can never leave the nexus, and the fact that the nexus has the force to rip ships apart, and yet you say he just willed him self a brand new flesh and blood body, for him and his crew, I really don't care what kind of physics you use that is still a stretch, and how do you explain all the refits, i say that he feels that he left the nexus but never did, to him it real but it also not, the nexus is a trap of a kind, and the most evil of traps, it gives you what you want and you have no way to see that its not real, so to Picard it is real to Picard he did will him self out, but he never got out
The cause of ships being ripped apart is never mentioned, it could be a dimentional thing that acts on all the subspace transstator technology Federation ships contain. It is not unreasonable to think that the ships are ripped apart because their structural integrity fields and/or various reactors go crazy because of the interaction of the rift and the transstators.
The cause of ships being ripped apart is never mentioned, it could be a dimentional thing that acts on all the subspace transstator technology Federation ships contain. It is not unreasonable to think that the ships are ripped apart because their structural integrity fields and/or various reactors go crazy because of the interaction of the rift and the transstators.
again it falls back on the nexus energy, I mean just because it looks like your out of a dream doesn't mean your really awake,
but I see that alot of yous want him to be alive no matter what
you all have been really blind to what I am trying to do for Star Trek, I mean this is the last season of Picard, and we need fresh story lines and just think what has been going on in the other universe the universe outside of the nexus, and how did Picards action affect the out come of the time line
see the thing is that it was said in the movie that you can never leave the nexus
By whom? Have you actually watched the film?
PICARD: Guinan, ...can I leave the Nexus?
GUINAN: Where would you go?
PICARD: I don't understand.
GUINAN: But as I said, time has no meaning here. So if you leave you can go anywhere, any time.
read the OP I've dated it so to end this waist of time, it seems you want to forget every other possible story line that is not Picard so be it, I never said a thing
It would be great if at the end of it they would put the timeline back in a way that would actually connect with TOS instead of attempting to trample it under, but since it is Kurtzman in charge and he has said he does not like TOS, that is almost certainly not going to happen.
If they did though, it could be interesting if they had two 'seasons' of DSC per year, one far future one continuing from where they are now, and one created by solving the problem Q sets Picard on the trail of set back in their original timeframe but more TOS compatible and interacting with SNW and Section 31.
If they treated Starfleet more like the UN security forces or NATO (that eventually tightens up until in late 2266 they start referring to it as "UFP Starfleet" instead of by the names of the individual members forces, such as UESPA) they could get the in-service rivalry and friction they were trying for in first season DSC in a way that was actually plausible, and even better it builds on the hints given in TOS so it would tend to attract the traditional fans instead of alienate them.
It would be great if at the end of it they would put the timeline back in a way that would actually connect with TOS instead of attempting to trample it under, but since it is Kurtzman in charge and he has said he does not like TOS, that is almost certainly not going to happen.
If they did though, it could be interesting if they had two 'seasons' of DSC per year, one far future one continuing from where they are now, and one created by solving the problem Q sets Picard on the trail of set back in their original timeframe but more TOS compatible and interacting with SNW and Section 31.
If they treated Starfleet more like the UN security forces or NATO (that eventually tightens up until in late 2266 they start referring to it as "UFP Starfleet" instead of by the names of the individual members forces, such as UESPA) they could get the in-service rivalry and friction they were trying for in first season DSC in a way that was actually plausible, and even better it builds on the hints given in TOS so it would tend to attract the traditional fans instead of alienate them.
to tell the truth, it is more about a Star Trek but like Q said, the road not taken (by Picard) or it could focus on another ship, I mean look at discovery, but would be able to take us back to the 24c Star Trek, and we could see a expansion of the explored map and more races and ships,
It would be great if at the end of it they would put the timeline back in a way that would actually connect with TOS instead of attempting to trample it under, but since it is Kurtzman in charge and he has said he does not like TOS, that is almost certainly not going to happen.
If they did though, it could be interesting if they had two 'seasons' of DSC per year, one far future one continuing from where they are now, and one created by solving the problem Q sets Picard on the trail of set back in their original timeframe but more TOS compatible and interacting with SNW and Section 31.
If they treated Starfleet more like the UN security forces or NATO (that eventually tightens up until in late 2266 they start referring to it as "UFP Starfleet" instead of by the names of the individual members forces, such as UESPA) they could get the in-service rivalry and friction they were trying for in first season DSC in a way that was actually plausible, and even better it builds on the hints given in TOS so it would tend to attract the traditional fans instead of alienate them.
the thing is TOS was actually kinda a continality mess, I mean it took them some time to decide that they where the "Starfleet" serving the "united federated of planets" IIRC an episode or two had kirk refer to himself as serving the "UN space probe agency" or something
It would be great if at the end of it they would put the timeline back in a way that would actually connect with TOS instead of attempting to trample it under, but since it is Kurtzman in charge and he has said he does not like TOS, that is almost certainly not going to happen.
If they did though, it could be interesting if they had two 'seasons' of DSC per year, one far future one continuing from where they are now, and one created by solving the problem Q sets Picard on the trail of set back in their original timeframe but more TOS compatible and interacting with SNW and Section 31.
If they treated Starfleet more like the UN security forces or NATO (that eventually tightens up until in late 2266 they start referring to it as "UFP Starfleet" instead of by the names of the individual members forces, such as UESPA) they could get the in-service rivalry and friction they were trying for in first season DSC in a way that was actually plausible, and even better it builds on the hints given in TOS so it would tend to attract the traditional fans instead of alienate them.
the thing is TOS was actually kinda a continality mess, I mean it took them some time to decide that they where the "Starfleet" serving the "united federated of planets" IIRC an episode or two had kirk refer to himself as serving the "UN space probe agency" or something
That really isn't a continuity issue because they made sure to do it as an evolution, not sudden back and forth shifts. If they has started out introducing the ship as belonging to "United Federation of Planets Starfleet", then shifted to UESPA, then back to UFP Starfleet then that would be a continuity issue. But they didn't do that.
What they did was use was use an organization name that implied that the Federation was more like the realworld European Union than a tighter, more centralized government (like the present-day US is) back in its early days. Starfleet was probably more like realworld NATO back then, and Starfleet probably had some vestige of that multinational type of organization long after it became moot.
A Vulcan ship would probably have used the name of whatever replaced High Command, an Andorian ship would probably have been introduced as being a part of the Andorian Imperial Guard, etc. until Starfleet did a reorganization and cleared out all the old alliance name cruft from the early days (which was finished by season one episode nine obviously since they used UFP Starfleet consistently ever since).
There was even some uniform color shuffling leading up to it (Uhura and Sulu most notably) which hints that they may have been doing an overhaul of the three departments too, which would be entirely consistent with the larger organizational streamlining/consolidation.
It would be great if at the end of it they would put the timeline back in a way that would actually connect with TOS instead of attempting to trample it under, but since it is Kurtzman in charge and he has said he does not like TOS, that is almost certainly not going to happen.
If they did though, it could be interesting if they had two 'seasons' of DSC per year, one far future one continuing from where they are now, and one created by solving the problem Q sets Picard on the trail of set back in their original timeframe but more TOS compatible and interacting with SNW and Section 31.
If they treated Starfleet more like the UN security forces or NATO (that eventually tightens up until in late 2266 they start referring to it as "UFP Starfleet" instead of by the names of the individual members forces, such as UESPA) they could get the in-service rivalry and friction they were trying for in first season DSC in a way that was actually plausible, and even better it builds on the hints given in TOS so it would tend to attract the traditional fans instead of alienate them.
the thing is TOS was actually kinda a continality mess, I mean it took them some time to decide that they where the "Starfleet" serving the "united federated of planets" IIRC an episode or two had kirk refer to himself as serving the "UN space probe agency" or something
That really isn't a continuity issue because they made sure to do it as an evolution, not sudden back and forth shifts. If they has started out introducing the ship as belonging to "United Federation of Planets Starfleet", then shifted to UESPA, then back to UFP Starfleet then that would be a continuity issue. But they didn't do that.
What they did was use was use an organization name that implied that the Federation was more like the realworld European Union than a tighter, more centralized government (like the present-day US is) back in its early days. Starfleet was probably more like realworld NATO back then, and Starfleet probably had some vestige of that multinational type of organization long after it became moot.
A Vulcan ship would probably have used the name of whatever replaced High Command, an Andorian ship would probably have been introduced as being a part of the Andorian Imperial Guard, etc. until Starfleet did a reorganization and cleared out all the old alliance name cruft from the early days (which was finished by season one episode nine obviously since they used UFP Starfleet consistently ever since).
There was even some uniform color shuffling leading up to it (Uhura and Sulu most notably) which hints that they may have been doing an overhaul of the three departments too, which would be entirely consistent with the larger organizational streamlining/consolidation.
no it wasn't world building, it was pure utter "the writers hadn't nailed that down" they admitted as such, you're over thinking
It would be great if at the end of it they would put the timeline back in a way that would actually connect with TOS instead of attempting to trample it under, but since it is Kurtzman in charge and he has said he does not like TOS, that is almost certainly not going to happen.
If they did though, it could be interesting if they had two 'seasons' of DSC per year, one far future one continuing from where they are now, and one created by solving the problem Q sets Picard on the trail of set back in their original timeframe but more TOS compatible and interacting with SNW and Section 31.
If they treated Starfleet more like the UN security forces or NATO (that eventually tightens up until in late 2266 they start referring to it as "UFP Starfleet" instead of by the names of the individual members forces, such as UESPA) they could get the in-service rivalry and friction they were trying for in first season DSC in a way that was actually plausible, and even better it builds on the hints given in TOS so it would tend to attract the traditional fans instead of alienate them.
the thing is TOS was actually kinda a continality mess, I mean it took them some time to decide that they where the "Starfleet" serving the "united federated of planets" IIRC an episode or two had kirk refer to himself as serving the "UN space probe agency" or something
That really isn't a continuity issue because they made sure to do it as an evolution, not sudden back and forth shifts. If they has started out introducing the ship as belonging to "United Federation of Planets Starfleet", then shifted to UESPA, then back to UFP Starfleet then that would be a continuity issue. But they didn't do that.
What they did was use was use an organization name that implied that the Federation was more like the realworld European Union than a tighter, more centralized government (like the present-day US is) back in its early days. Starfleet was probably more like realworld NATO back then, and Starfleet probably had some vestige of that multinational type of organization long after it became moot.
A Vulcan ship would probably have used the name of whatever replaced High Command, an Andorian ship would probably have been introduced as being a part of the Andorian Imperial Guard, etc. until Starfleet did a reorganization and cleared out all the old alliance name cruft from the early days (which was finished by season one episode nine obviously since they used UFP Starfleet consistently ever since).
There was even some uniform color shuffling leading up to it (Uhura and Sulu most notably) which hints that they may have been doing an overhaul of the three departments too, which would be entirely consistent with the larger organizational streamlining/consolidation.
no it wasn't world building, it was pure utter "the writers hadn't nailed that down" they admitted as such, you're over thinking
I hate to burst your bubble, but worldbuilding does not stop in series preproduction, it continues on from the framework initially set down throughout a well-written series (the ones which don't do that quickly begin to feel stale and static). And building on that initial framework, even tweaking parts of that framework to smooth some of the new parts, is not a "continuity mess" as long as it is done in a way that makes it feel like a clarification or eliminating an in-story coverup instead of arbitrary change. And the way they did it in TOS qualifies as that ongoing evolution.
It is analysis, not overthinking.
The ironic part about DSC is that if the producers of that show did not dismiss in contempt anything that came from TOS they could have used that vestige of multinational internal organization to base the internal friction they so obviously wanted in the Federation and Starfleet on in DSC. It would also have been a good reason to have several types of uniform and insignia so they would not have had to use the TOS uniforms they apparently hated when DSC was in run-up.
All they had to do was to make an effort to look into TOS for what it was and what it was intended to be and then updated and added to it instead of just glancing at the 1960's production values and turning their noses up in contempt and going for The Undiscovered Country as their touchstone for the new series.
see the thing is that it was said in the movie that you can never leave the nexus
By whom? Have you actually watched the film?
PICARD: Guinan, ...can I leave the Nexus?
GUINAN: Where would you go?
PICARD: I don't understand.
GUINAN: But as I said, time has no meaning here. So if you leave you can go anywhere, any time.
well before he went in to the nexus she said that no one could truly leave the nexus, but once he was in he was told he could leave, so what one is it, because if you listen to her both times she contradicted her self,
You also have to consider the circumstances.
Guinen didn't leave by choice. She was ripped out of there by the Enterprise-B, so a piece of her stayed behind. Picard left by choice.
There is also the factor that they said time is meaningless there. In a way it is true that no one can truly leave once they have been there since they were there at one time, so even if they leave they are still there from before and can still be interacted with by people just coming in since all times are one.
There is also the factor that they said time is meaningless there. In a way it is true that no one can truly leave once they have been there since they were there at one time, so even if they leave they are still there from before and can still be interacted with by people just coming in since all times are one.
I do not think that is the correct interpretation. If you leave, you are gone from the Nexus. Part of you does not stay there. Nor are all time periods for everyone there merged into one.
Time has no meaning in that while inside the Nexus, linear time does not exist. You can exist at any point in time, so you do not have to experience the passage of time in a pure linear manner as we do in the outside world. You essentially become immortal while in the Nexus and can move about back and forth through time as easily as you like. We know this from key lines in the dialogue -
SORAN: Nice try. ...You know, there was a time when I wouldn't hurt a fly. Then the Borg came. And they showed me that if there is one constant in this whole universe. ...It's death. ...Afterwards I began to realize it didn't really matter. We're all going to die sometime. It's just a question of how and when. You will too, Captain. Aren't you beginning to feel time gaining on you? ...It's like a predator. It's stalking you. ...Oh, you can try and outrun it with doctors, medicines, new technologies, but in the end time is going to hunt you down, ...and make the kill.
PICARD: It's our mortality that defines us, Soran. It's part of the truth of our existence.
SORAN: What if I told you I've found a new truth.
PICARD: The Nexus?
SORAN: Time has no meaning there. The predator has no teeth.
...
GUINAN: Of course. Time has no meaning here. So you can go back and see them born, or go forward and see your grandchildren.
Then why are you bothering with a discussion of the Nexus, which has as much to do with real physics as phlogiston has to do with real chemistry?
nice reply, can you add some context please, I mean, I guess Picard is so great he can live with out a body, I guess any human can live with out a body
The context is that the Nexus is a place outside space/time; the body Picard had when he left it was the same one he had when he entered it. If you want consistent rules, you need to deal with something that isn't basically a spatiotemporal anomaly that may or may not be literal Heaven. This is like arguing about how Sisko can possibly perceive what's going on in the Celestial Temple, where linear time does not exist.
wildman38e
Member Posts: 43 Arc User
Comments
Its not that you could never leave, its that most people don't WANT to leave.
And the timeline in PIC is Q's work. And Picard is very much not in control of it, neither literally nor figuratively
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
It could very well be that the Nexus is a gateway of sorts. A volitile one towards ships, but not to living beings.
Real Physics kinda go out the window when dealing with fantastic anomalies in Star Trek. Honestly I don't even know if Two Dimensional Life is possible, or time travel via slingshot around a star at faster than light speeds, or any of the various things that happen.
For all we know the Nexus realm is one influenced by pure thought and willpower alone. If someone wishes to leave, and to a certain place and time, then it is entirely possible. As Guinan said in there, Time has no meaning.
see the thing is that it was said in the movie that you can never leave the nexus, and the fact that the nexus has the force to rip ships apart, and yet you say he just willed him self a brand new flesh and blood body, for him and his crew, I really don't care what kind of physics you use that is still a stretch, and how do you explain all the refits, i say that he feels that he left the nexus but never did, to him it real but it also not, the nexus is a trap of a kind, and the most evil of traps, it gives you what you want and you have no way to see that its not real, so to Picard it is real to Picard he did will him self out, but he never got out
again it falls back on the nexus energy, I mean just because it looks like your out of a dream doesn't mean your really awake,
but I see that alot of yous want him to be alive no matter what
If they did though, it could be interesting if they had two 'seasons' of DSC per year, one far future one continuing from where they are now, and one created by solving the problem Q sets Picard on the trail of set back in their original timeframe but more TOS compatible and interacting with SNW and Section 31.
If they treated Starfleet more like the UN security forces or NATO (that eventually tightens up until in late 2266 they start referring to it as "UFP Starfleet" instead of by the names of the individual members forces, such as UESPA) they could get the in-service rivalry and friction they were trying for in first season DSC in a way that was actually plausible, and even better it builds on the hints given in TOS so it would tend to attract the traditional fans instead of alienate them.
the thing is TOS was actually kinda a continality mess, I mean it took them some time to decide that they where the "Starfleet" serving the "united federated of planets" IIRC an episode or two had kirk refer to himself as serving the "UN space probe agency" or something
That really isn't a continuity issue because they made sure to do it as an evolution, not sudden back and forth shifts. If they has started out introducing the ship as belonging to "United Federation of Planets Starfleet", then shifted to UESPA, then back to UFP Starfleet then that would be a continuity issue. But they didn't do that.
What they did was use was use an organization name that implied that the Federation was more like the realworld European Union than a tighter, more centralized government (like the present-day US is) back in its early days. Starfleet was probably more like realworld NATO back then, and Starfleet probably had some vestige of that multinational type of organization long after it became moot.
A Vulcan ship would probably have used the name of whatever replaced High Command, an Andorian ship would probably have been introduced as being a part of the Andorian Imperial Guard, etc. until Starfleet did a reorganization and cleared out all the old alliance name cruft from the early days (which was finished by season one episode nine obviously since they used UFP Starfleet consistently ever since).
There was even some uniform color shuffling leading up to it (Uhura and Sulu most notably) which hints that they may have been doing an overhaul of the three departments too, which would be entirely consistent with the larger organizational streamlining/consolidation.
no it wasn't world building, it was pure utter "the writers hadn't nailed that down" they admitted as such, you're over thinking
I hate to burst your bubble, but worldbuilding does not stop in series preproduction, it continues on from the framework initially set down throughout a well-written series (the ones which don't do that quickly begin to feel stale and static). And building on that initial framework, even tweaking parts of that framework to smooth some of the new parts, is not a "continuity mess" as long as it is done in a way that makes it feel like a clarification or eliminating an in-story coverup instead of arbitrary change. And the way they did it in TOS qualifies as that ongoing evolution.
It is analysis, not overthinking.
The ironic part about DSC is that if the producers of that show did not dismiss in contempt anything that came from TOS they could have used that vestige of multinational internal organization to base the internal friction they so obviously wanted in the Federation and Starfleet on in DSC. It would also have been a good reason to have several types of uniform and insignia so they would not have had to use the TOS uniforms they apparently hated when DSC was in run-up.
All they had to do was to make an effort to look into TOS for what it was and what it was intended to be and then updated and added to it instead of just glancing at the 1960's production values and turning their noses up in contempt and going for The Undiscovered Country as their touchstone for the new series.
well before he went in to the nexus she said that no one could truly leave the nexus, but once he was in he was told he could leave, so what one is it, because if you listen to her both times she contradicted her self,
Guinen didn't leave by choice. She was ripped out of there by the Enterprise-B, so a piece of her stayed behind. Picard left by choice.