Sorry for the terrible real life situations described.
With that out of the way there is more to this story clearly. Leadership is offered to Rank 6 first. Only if no one in such a position takes over does it get offered to low level people. When I say more is unsaid.. I think there are two major issues here that may have played into this. Either everyone at the second highest rank where also AFK for a month... or this fleet was setup in a paranoid way where the leader never bumped anyone up from pleb status.
Ok to be fair its not like everything in STO isn't a bit Cryptic (oh man pun intended) its possible you guys didn't know how to structure your fleet leadership. For anyone reading that doesn't understand the fleet system. Ensure your fleet has a proper structure setup. Real life happens... if your fleet is led by someone who doesn't put anyone in the top rank but themselves understand your just upgrading their personal fleet. If you have a group of friends fleeted up... make sure you have people at the right rank who are current. To make
maintenance easier its also a good idea to keep a AFK rank, and if its a one of those big fleets that brings anyone in from zone chat... have TWO AFK ranks one for no one over mid rank and a AFK fleet admiral rank, that way you won't run into a situation down the road where a leader has to leave for a few months, and everyone in Rank 6 is AFK. If the fleet gets to a point where all the leadership is parked in AFK... you know someone needs to get moved up.
By "ensign", are you referring to in-game rank, or positioning in your fleet? Because if some "random (fleet) ensign" were offered the leadership role, this would indicate that every single officer superior to this person had failed to assumed the leadership for months. Did *all* of them lose their computers in a fire?
We have in-fleet ranks. I didn't make the system, i only play in it. All I can say for sure is no one knows who this jerk is or how he even got into the fleet. No one remembers inviting them and no one has a clue how they got top rank and stole the fleet. No point in making another if we can just loose that as well.
I am wondering if this is the best cryptic has to offer, if I should just quit the game and move on. Seems like if this happens, it can happen again; so best to move on. Enough do that, game dies and room is made for a newer/better game. I am thinking if it were not for the name, this game would have been long dead otherwise.
Did your Fleet Leader not have any Vice Admirals sitting at Rank 6? Or none active? Because as was stated there is a tiered system in place to largely prevent just this sort of thing. This does not become possible until a lot of Fleet Officers have ignored it for a substantial period of time. I'm gonna guess no Tier 6 officer or none still playing. Everybody in the Fleet has invite privileges and the ability to promote up to full member? It sucks, but your fleets failure to utilize the tools available to secure itself does not make this a failing or a problem of Cryptic's. As you point out they have no way of determining anything about you vs the player that claimed the fleet when it went up for grabs. Everybody ignored the problem until the Fleet went free for all. They likely aren't communicating back with you because they've investigated or are investigating. Are communicating or have attempted communications with the Fleet officers, And you really aren't in a position of standing to be a party to any of this. Cryptic, and any MMO company will view what you are doing here as an attempt at a Fleet Theft far more than how they will view a Fleet transfer that happened via structured in game mechanics. It sucks to have Fleet Leadership change in this way. It sucks that the guy who clicked to take it over is apparently a jackass and a troll. But I kind of doubt there is a remedy for it.
Five of my toons are the rank one before the top rank. I personally have never held the top post. We didn't have many at the top and no one in fleet knows who this !@#$ is. I have been here the better part of a decade and have no clue who took control. Never saw the handle before this.
It seems it doesn't matter to cryptic because my fleet leader has been suspended for trying to get his fleet back. I am now convinced Cryptic and it's staff are the problem. I am also far more inclined to believe hacking/cheating if this looser is being covered from within Cryptic itself. As such, Cryptic is getting no more money from me. And I mean all the games not just this one.
Moral of the story, Do not support corrupt companies who shield the criminal and punish the victims.
So, are there any good space ship based MMO's? I read that Eve is not for the casual player and I tried SWTOR, sadly all ground.
Sorry for the terrible real life situations described.
With that out of the way there is more to this story clearly. Leadership is offered to Rank 6 first. Only if no one in such a position takes over does it get offered to low level people. When I say more is unsaid.. I think there are two major issues here that may have played into this. Either everyone at the second highest rank where also AFK for a month... or this fleet was setup in a paranoid way where the leader never bumped anyone up from pleb status.
Ok to be fair its not like everything in STO isn't a bit Cryptic (oh man pun intended) its possible you guys didn't know how to structure your fleet leadership. For anyone reading that doesn't understand the fleet system. Ensure your fleet has a proper structure setup. Real life happens... if your fleet is led by someone who doesn't put anyone in the top rank but themselves understand your just upgrading their personal fleet. If you have a group of friends fleeted up... make sure you have people at the right rank who are current. To make
maintenance easier its also a good idea to keep a AFK rank, and if its a one of those big fleets that brings anyone in from zone chat... have TWO AFK ranks one for no one over mid rank and a AFK fleet admiral rank, that way you won't run into a situation down the road where a leader has to leave for a few months, and everyone in Rank 6 is AFK. If the fleet gets to a point where all the leadership is parked in AFK... you know someone needs to get moved up.
Ironically we had trouble in the past so only fleet leaders were top tier command. We have/had five fleets in the armada. so only 5+ in the top seats. Seems fishy to me the more I hear and see about this.
@gaming1ogre - I understand that you're upset, but your latest accusations about Cryptic staff and about why your former leader is now suspended are not credible.
It seems it doesn't matter to cryptic because my fleet leader has been suspended for trying to get his fleet back. I am now convinced Cryptic and it's staff are the problem. I am also far more inclined to believe hacking/cheating if this looser is being covered from within Cryptic itself. As such, Cryptic is getting no more money from me. And I mean all the games not just this one.
Moral of the story, Do not support corrupt companies who shield the criminal and punish the victims.
So, are there any good space ship based MMO's? I read that Eve is not for the casual player and I tried SWTOR, sadly all ground.
There is no conspiracy here, it's prefectly normal for for a MMO developer to refuse to get involved with fleet/guild business like this site to the potential for things to have been discussed outside of in-game chat. They give leaders the tools to set permissions and the rest is on the fleet/guild. If it can be proven that a compromised account was used to invite and promote the individual in question then they MIGHT intervene then, but other than that the only option is to leave and start fresh.
I have been in multiple fleets where the "claim leadership" mechanic has activated in the past.
...
Now, in order to fully take over, the new rank 7 would have to demote the other rank 7s, which does have a waiting period and can only be done one at a time.
Good point. The mechanic you described increases the time necessary for somebody to take over a fleet as each rank 7 has this additional waiting period until the demote goes through. Believe the waiting period is 2 weeks per r7.
It should be said: in my armadas (Fed and KDF) we do recommend, though not all of the fleets do this, that there only be one r7 character (not even player, just character) per fleet, because it makes certain armada-related things easier. As long as everyone at r6 is trusted in case the claim becomes necessary, it works very well. And any fleet management (projects, etc) can be unlocked for r6.
While this might make some armada related things easier I have a different approach.
Most of my characters are at rank 7. If I have 10 characters this extends possible fleet loss to taking 2 weeks x 10 or 5 months.
Having more than one individual at rank 7 can also be a long term goal. Over a period of many years I got to know the 2 leaders of another fleet very well and we helped each other accomplish goals as they were KDF primary and I was FED primary at the time. They have both been rank 7 in my own fleets for quite some time now which reduces risk. We are even geographically diverse... Canada, USA, and Germany.
Stuff happens... be prepared. I came close to not being around in late 2018. If that were to happen succession by like minded individuals I trust has already been taken care of.
Well yes, but not in the way you think. Your claims get harder to believe the more you go on. Things don’t work the way you claim. There would appear to be lots of months long holes in your story. You might want to go back an re-examine the story you’re being told by your ex-guild leader with the fire, because not a lot of any of it makes much sense.
For all we know the fleet leader sold the fleet to another player and now is claiming it was stolen to cover themselves.
Or they could even be the "troll" themselves using an alternate account. Back in the early days of WoW there were two people I had first met in SWG, and then followed to WoW, who I considered to be close friends. After years of being friends me and one of the friends discovered that the other was not who they said they were, and everything they had ever told us was a lie just to mess with us. Online you can really never know for sure how trustworthy someone actually is.
IIRC A gaming company could get into serious legal trouble if they tried to police things like what happened here without evidence and even if that's true it could be a major blow to their reliability should they make a ruling in such case and it came to light they in fact ruled in favor of the bully.
In 99% of the cases there simply isn't enough reliable information for a company to the risk of make a ruling either way, now I'm not accusing anyone of lying here but I'm pointing out that Cryptic (or any other company on the planet) has no way of knowing who is in the right and if the arguments put out are being truthful so it's more beneficial for them to stay out.
Especially since Cryptic (or Blizzard or Square-Enix or any other company running MMOs) has at most access to the chat logs from the in-game chat (and considering that even STO has thousands of players that a lot of lines to shift thru to find out things even if the company was willing to do so) and thus could be missing context due not having access to the "guild" forums, discord or what ever else they use to communicate outside of in-game chat.
If they have access to the chat logs and still did nothing for us, then they deserve to loose players and go out of business. Your words help me see I am wasting time with this game, so if this is not fixed soon, i am leaving. Otherwise my compliance would show I approve of this nightmare. In other words, I feel I must quit over principle. Is there a third option?
Well you might as well quit MMOs totally then as Cryptic is following the norm here, the log files for STO alone will be massive (as in GT or TT sized text files).
And you also conveniently utterly ignored by point about external info that Cryptic (or any other western company) would have no access to.
The "issue" will not ever be fixed as fixing it would mean massive legal troubles for the company involved and Cryptic aren't really interested at getting sued for things they can't really do anything about anyway.
TL:DR You're probably gonna find any gaming company willing to get involved in internal "guild" issues like this anytime soon.
EDIT:Now if a player is harassing others, get screenshots of it and provide those to Cryptic as evidence, no one is actively reading the logs as they're made but those logs will be checked if there's sufficient evidence to suggest violation of rules.
Oh and of 5 MMOs I've played not a single one had a policy of getting involved in "guild" drama unless rules were broken.
For all we know the fleet leader sold the fleet to another player and now is claiming it was stolen to cover themselves.
Or they could even be the "troll" themselves using an alternate account. Back in the early days of WoW there were two people I had first met in SWG, and then followed to WoW, who I considered to be close friends. After years of being friends me and one of the friends discovered that the other was not who they said they were, and everything they had ever told us was a lie just to mess with us. Online you can really never know for sure how trustworthy someone actually is.
While it's true that you cannot know for sure, being lied to for years is quite an extreme example.
I don't know anyone from my fleet in real life, but after having played for years together I know I can trust them to act in the fleet's best interest.
A quick look at the website and the wiki shows no obvious documentation of this feature. It may have been previously documented in a blog by Cryptic when it was introduced, but I'm scratching my head as to how somebody who doesn't religiously follow the blog and/or is newer than that was supposed to find out about it—especially considering the last major revamp to fleet mechanics (armadas notwithstanding) happened before Legacy of Romulus.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
A quick look at the website and the wiki shows no obvious documentation of this feature. It may have been previously documented in a blog by Cryptic when it was introduced, but I'm scratching my head as to how somebody who doesn't religiously follow the blog and/or is newer than that was supposed to find out about it—especially considering the last major revamp to fleet mechanics (armadas notwithstanding) happened before Legacy of Romulus.
The Wiki is player operated, so that one is simply a case of no one bothering to add it there.
A quick look at the website and the wiki shows no obvious documentation of this feature. It may have been previously documented in a blog by Cryptic when it was introduced, but I'm scratching my head as to how somebody who doesn't religiously follow the blog and/or is newer than that was supposed to find out about it—especially considering the last major revamp to fleet mechanics (armadas notwithstanding) happened before Legacy of Romulus.
The link did take a bit to find but if anybody has to follow things religiously or endeavor to equip themselves with the necessary knowledge with regard to fleet mechanics it would probably be fleet leaders.
Online you can really never know for sure how trustworthy someone actually is.
where did you get my picture?
seriously, though, this is just one reason why i will not ever join a fleet. I'm not submitting to the whims of 3-4 people who demand I turn over thousands of EC and Dil a day for the privilege of MAYBE getting access to gear and ships
Online you can really never know for sure how trustworthy someone actually is.
<image>
where did you get my picture?
seriously, though, this is just one reason why i will not ever join a fleet. I'm not submitting to the whims of 3-4 people who demand I turn over thousands of EC and Dil a day for the privilege of MAYBE getting access to gear and ships
Don't be silly. Turning over thousands of EC and Dilithium daily isn't something I'm familiar with after running and being a member of multiple fleets for over a decade
Most members submit mainly Fleet marks and promotion to store access is automatic after a token amount of Fleet credits are earned. The amount can vary a bit but I use 100K (garnered from 2000 Fleet marks or equivalent) as the promo point. You'd need >300K just to basically outfit a ship.
If you're getting a different deal than this go elsewhere. Your earned Fleet marks stay with you.
Putting tribbles in the Fleet bank is punishable by death though
You do realize loosing the computer and phone took our fleet leaders ability to tell anyone about it. No one knew. Besides the leadership position should have passed to one of the actual leaders "Fleet admiral".
The more I think about your response, the more it feels like your shaming the victim in this disaster; and thereby shaming all us us who have had no choices in this.
I probably would not be so pissed if this individual wasn't taunting us, holding control hostage, and constantly demoting individuals prevents us from running the fleet! You can't tell me this is in the best interests of the game's community.
Tend to agree with foxman00. "If you snooze, you lose." Sounds a bit callous, perhaps, at first face; but, indeed, the game did not assign leadership to just a random Ensign. If one of your actual Fleet Admirals wanted to take over after 30 days, then one of you should have taken the game up on its offered link to claim leadership, maybe?
Also, the game acts appropriately, IMHO. Imagine it didn't eventually offer leadership to lower ranked officers. Then you'd be here, bitterly complaining the game 'took your Fleet away' because you're locked out, for ever. You can't have your cookie and eat it: either one of your Fleet Admirals steps up and takes the game's offer of Leadership (instead of snoozing, whilst, at long last, an Ensign will walk away with it), or you stay for ever locked out of your Fleet.
Like Nixie, my experience with fleets have included what was essentially daily dues to be in the fleet. the moment they said that i was pushing the leave fleet button
Like Nixie, my experience with fleets have included what was essentially daily dues to be in the fleet. the moment they said that i was pushing the leave fleet button
You can always start your own fleet. Way back before all these silly fleet bases and holdings people started fleets all the time... now ya upgrading fleets is a PITA. Having said that... all you really have to do to get anything outside of some fleet ships... is get tier 1 in most things so you can earn provisions. Once you have provisions you can get an invite to a base from anyone in a T5 fleet and buy whatever you want and use your own provisions. The only exception being ships.
Really find 5 or 6 friends start a small fleet and just get Tier 1s in most things. Perhaps unlock a bit more on the main base so you can grab fleet versions of a few ships. For most newer ships the fleet versions tend to have low level req for unlocks. I think Cryptic learned a few years ago making Tier 5 a requirement for a fleet version cut into sales.
There are even few somewhat out of date holdings you can probably just skip. Or worry about down the road if you are so inclined.
A quick look at the website and the wiki shows no obvious documentation of this feature. It may have been previously documented in a blog by Cryptic when it was introduced, but I'm scratching my head as to how somebody who doesn't religiously follow the blog and/or is newer than that was supposed to find out about it—especially considering the last major revamp to fleet mechanics (armadas notwithstanding) happened before Legacy of Romulus.
This is a good point. It is certainly not documented anywhere in the actual game, like so many things.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
seriously, though, this is just one reason why i will not ever join a fleet. I'm not submitting to the whims of 3-4 people who demand I turn over thousands of EC and Dil a day for the privilege of MAYBE getting access to gear and ships
My fleet doesn't do that at all. Hell... we're super casual, maybe semi active honestly. Only requirement really for a promotion from recruit to member is just interact with us when we're online. Say hi, have a little bit of conversation. Other than that... no "tribute" requirements for being in. You can do your own thing, run whatever you want, contribute whatever you feel comfortable with...
Different fleets tend to have different rules. Sounds like you kept running into hardcore fleets that request compensation or something. IMO demanding in game "dues" to be a member of the fleet is a load of shtako. Honestly the idea of fleet credit requirements for promotion within the fleet is also kinda bad because you end up in a rat race with the other members for access to fleet projects, otherwise you might as well get comfortable being at the bottom since everything is filled already before you get there.
But again... like I said, different fleets have different rules. Some are more relaxed than others.
When I first joined my fleet, I didn't just jump in. I hung out with them a bit, got to know them, got a sense of how the fleet is run... all because I wanted to be sure that it was the right fleet for me. When I felt I had enough information to make a decision... I pulled the trigger. Been with them ever since. Things may have changed over the years due to members going inactive, but I am still friends with a lot of them even today.
I can understand something like earning a one-time 100,000 fleet credits before getting access to gear, mainly because every piece of gear costs provisions, which requires projects that cost dil to run.
The fleets I'm in do not have an ongoing tax though.
Comments
With that out of the way there is more to this story clearly. Leadership is offered to Rank 6 first. Only if no one in such a position takes over does it get offered to low level people. When I say more is unsaid.. I think there are two major issues here that may have played into this. Either everyone at the second highest rank where also AFK for a month... or this fleet was setup in a paranoid way where the leader never bumped anyone up from pleb status.
Ok to be fair its not like everything in STO isn't a bit Cryptic (oh man pun intended) its possible you guys didn't know how to structure your fleet leadership. For anyone reading that doesn't understand the fleet system. Ensure your fleet has a proper structure setup. Real life happens... if your fleet is led by someone who doesn't put anyone in the top rank but themselves understand your just upgrading their personal fleet. If you have a group of friends fleeted up... make sure you have people at the right rank who are current. To make
maintenance easier its also a good idea to keep a AFK rank, and if its a one of those big fleets that brings anyone in from zone chat... have TWO AFK ranks one for no one over mid rank and a AFK fleet admiral rank, that way you won't run into a situation down the road where a leader has to leave for a few months, and everyone in Rank 6 is AFK. If the fleet gets to a point where all the leadership is parked in AFK... you know someone needs to get moved up.
Five of my toons are the rank one before the top rank. I personally have never held the top post. We didn't have many at the top and no one in fleet knows who this !@#$ is. I have been here the better part of a decade and have no clue who took control. Never saw the handle before this.
Moral of the story, Do not support corrupt companies who shield the criminal and punish the victims.
So, are there any good space ship based MMO's? I read that Eve is not for the casual player and I tried SWTOR, sadly all ground.
Ironically we had trouble in the past so only fleet leaders were top tier command. We have/had five fleets in the armada. so only 5+ in the top seats. Seems fishy to me the more I hear and see about this.
There is no conspiracy here, it's prefectly normal for for a MMO developer to refuse to get involved with fleet/guild business like this site to the potential for things to have been discussed outside of in-game chat. They give leaders the tools to set permissions and the rest is on the fleet/guild. If it can be proven that a compromised account was used to invite and promote the individual in question then they MIGHT intervene then, but other than that the only option is to leave and start fresh.
While this might make some armada related things easier I have a different approach.
Most of my characters are at rank 7. If I have 10 characters this extends possible fleet loss to taking 2 weeks x 10 or 5 months.
Having more than one individual at rank 7 can also be a long term goal. Over a period of many years I got to know the 2 leaders of another fleet very well and we helped each other accomplish goals as they were KDF primary and I was FED primary at the time. They have both been rank 7 in my own fleets for quite some time now which reduces risk. We are even geographically diverse... Canada, USA, and Germany.
Stuff happens... be prepared. I came close to not being around in late 2018. If that were to happen succession by like minded individuals I trust has already been taken care of.
We forum members have no way of knowing what really happened, and Cryptic might not have the right logs to be able to determine things either.
Or they could even be the "troll" themselves using an alternate account. Back in the early days of WoW there were two people I had first met in SWG, and then followed to WoW, who I considered to be close friends. After years of being friends me and one of the friends discovered that the other was not who they said they were, and everything they had ever told us was a lie just to mess with us. Online you can really never know for sure how trustworthy someone actually is.
And you also conveniently utterly ignored by point about external info that Cryptic (or any other western company) would have no access to.
The "issue" will not ever be fixed as fixing it would mean massive legal troubles for the company involved and Cryptic aren't really interested at getting sued for things they can't really do anything about anyway.
TL:DR You're probably gonna find any gaming company willing to get involved in internal "guild" issues like this anytime soon.
EDIT:Now if a player is harassing others, get screenshots of it and provide those to Cryptic as evidence, no one is actively reading the logs as they're made but those logs will be checked if there's sufficient evidence to suggest violation of rules.
Oh and of 5 MMOs I've played not a single one had a policy of getting involved in "guild" drama unless rules were broken.
While it's true that you cannot know for sure, being lied to for years is quite an extreme example.
I don't know anyone from my fleet in real life, but after having played for years together I know I can trust them to act in the fleet's best interest.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The Wiki is player operated, so that one is simply a case of no one bothering to add it there.
The link did take a bit to find but if anybody has to follow things religiously or endeavor to equip themselves with the necessary knowledge with regard to fleet mechanics it would probably be fleet leaders.
https://arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/1004730-legacy-of-romulus-dev-blog-_41
Edit: It appears that the dev blog index (whose address can be found in the wiki) containing the above article isn't operational - link
where did you get my picture?
seriously, though, this is just one reason why i will not ever join a fleet. I'm not submitting to the whims of 3-4 people who demand I turn over thousands of EC and Dil a day for the privilege of MAYBE getting access to gear and ships
Don't be silly. Turning over thousands of EC and Dilithium daily isn't something I'm familiar with after running and being a member of multiple fleets for over a decade
Most members submit mainly Fleet marks and promotion to store access is automatic after a token amount of Fleet credits are earned. The amount can vary a bit but I use 100K (garnered from 2000 Fleet marks or equivalent) as the promo point. You'd need >300K just to basically outfit a ship.
If you're getting a different deal than this go elsewhere. Your earned Fleet marks stay with you.
Putting tribbles in the Fleet bank is punishable by death though
Tend to agree with foxman00. "If you snooze, you lose." Sounds a bit callous, perhaps, at first face; but, indeed, the game did not assign leadership to just a random Ensign. If one of your actual Fleet Admirals wanted to take over after 30 days, then one of you should have taken the game up on its offered link to claim leadership, maybe?
Also, the game acts appropriately, IMHO. Imagine it didn't eventually offer leadership to lower ranked officers. Then you'd be here, bitterly complaining the game 'took your Fleet away' because you're locked out, for ever. You can't have your cookie and eat it: either one of your Fleet Admirals steps up and takes the game's offer of Leadership (instead of snoozing, whilst, at long last, an Ensign will walk away with it), or you stay for ever locked out of your Fleet.
You can always start your own fleet. Way back before all these silly fleet bases and holdings people started fleets all the time... now ya upgrading fleets is a PITA. Having said that... all you really have to do to get anything outside of some fleet ships... is get tier 1 in most things so you can earn provisions. Once you have provisions you can get an invite to a base from anyone in a T5 fleet and buy whatever you want and use your own provisions. The only exception being ships.
Really find 5 or 6 friends start a small fleet and just get Tier 1s in most things. Perhaps unlock a bit more on the main base so you can grab fleet versions of a few ships. For most newer ships the fleet versions tend to have low level req for unlocks. I think Cryptic learned a few years ago making Tier 5 a requirement for a fleet version cut into sales.
There are even few somewhat out of date holdings you can probably just skip. Or worry about down the road if you are so inclined.
This is a good point. It is certainly not documented anywhere in the actual game, like so many things.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
My fleet doesn't do that at all. Hell... we're super casual, maybe semi active honestly. Only requirement really for a promotion from recruit to member is just interact with us when we're online. Say hi, have a little bit of conversation. Other than that... no "tribute" requirements for being in. You can do your own thing, run whatever you want, contribute whatever you feel comfortable with...
Different fleets tend to have different rules. Sounds like you kept running into hardcore fleets that request compensation or something. IMO demanding in game "dues" to be a member of the fleet is a load of shtako. Honestly the idea of fleet credit requirements for promotion within the fleet is also kinda bad because you end up in a rat race with the other members for access to fleet projects, otherwise you might as well get comfortable being at the bottom since everything is filled already before you get there.
But again... like I said, different fleets have different rules. Some are more relaxed than others.
When I first joined my fleet, I didn't just jump in. I hung out with them a bit, got to know them, got a sense of how the fleet is run... all because I wanted to be sure that it was the right fleet for me. When I felt I had enough information to make a decision... I pulled the trigger. Been with them ever since. Things may have changed over the years due to members going inactive, but I am still friends with a lot of them even today.
The fleets I'm in do not have an ongoing tax though.