I about a year ago suggested a Ferengi Drozana Station update, I made it in the older thread Kael is requesting Dilithium (DIL) idea's thread, and perhaps another around the same time. Since the old stations Exterior and Interior are always in poor repair never been updated; yet idea would not require Fleet Membership too just like today.
I mean they could even have a members of the Ferengi Commerce Commission NPC's in time setup a new table, everyone as upgrades progressed could unlock and buy things with. Yet not being a Fleet Holding wouldn't unlock a Transwarp either. Perhaps also be far larger contributions of Fleet Marks, Common Duty Officers, and several others as well. Still I think challenge to Cryptic would find right balance and how many tiers of upgrades to unlock things... ...how many, or what things could it unlock would be unknown. The problem being a Community Holding, more might be less likely to donate DIL to upgrades, at least in larger #'s; still they'd need to ask for some. So perhaps they instead approached it different, ask for more at purchase?
It also be WISE for Ferengi to ask for GPL to buy things with Commerce Credits, in addition to Dilithium.
They shouldn't show how much each Character has contributed in a common Community Holding, or the list be miles long. Though you'd see your progress of Commerce Credits maximum earned, and that remaining on each Character for sure. I'd recommend they just show which Faction Fed or KDF, or Sub-Faction Romulan or Dominion had contributed to each phase of community holding upgrade? So Fed, KDF, Romulan's or Dominion, I'm sure that's how they'd approach it as well... ...could also inspire which Faction helps redesign the broken station arm, or perhaps updates the interior a bit too?
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Still I'd be fine if they instead upgraded all existing Tier III Holdings, 1 every year or two out to Tier IV... ...as that also require far less time to update as well, with only a few minor updates to looks, and also expand items to purchase at each Holding too. Both however have existing models that be easy to update.
For example: Drozanna some Station Arms are fine, so copy a non broken one, then reinforce Hull given with Federation modern supplies to update the look by various Alliance Factions, inspired by the Faction or Sub-Faction who contributes the most.
One or more fleet holdings would be a great way to burn off a ton of the excess Dil. Maybe a Borg themed one Ala “The Artifact” from Picard S1? A mirror themed one?
One or more fleet holdings would be a great way to burn off a ton of the excess Dil. Maybe a Borg themed one Ala “The Artifact” from Picard S1? A mirror themed one?
That is another interesting idea as well, and I'd like it very much!
I prefer Holdings that are maintained and managed by the Fleets themselves. I still like the Fleet Holding growing Tier III out to IV, because it wouldn't require a whole new holding being designed, mostly as it be faster to update with a few subtle changes. It also allow them to introduce one every year or two for the next 5-10; people also only be expanding from where they left off. It also allow some new things to purchase at some older holdings as well...
Even though some donate more DIL than others. If you have a lot of credit there are things you can buy, and have lots of choices with what to do with it, as there options to spend a lot of it. So no complains what-ever they choose.
Still I like the Community Holding idea I presented about Drozana Station, solely because it's always in Neglect by the Ferengi.
▬▬♫♪♫♪♪▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬♫♪▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ NOTE: It was down to 2.5 million backlog a week ago, down from 4.2 million 5-6 weeks before. Yet now up to almost 3. Be NICE if they though up some new Fleet Holding like the Artifact, or expanded Tier III out to IV for 1 every year or two...
I'd support this if Cryptic were to institute some sort of a Fleet Dilithium tax mechanic along with any new holdings.
You want to see everything associated with STO go nuclear? Because a Dilithium Tax is guaranteed to ignite ALL social media/forum/reddit locations with flame posts.
It would make the flames of Delta Rising look like a candle.
A forced tax is not the answer to the Exchange Rate.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
I'd support this if Cryptic were to institute some sort of a Fleet Dilithium tax mechanic along with any new holdings.
You want to see everything associated with STO go nuclear? Because a Dilithium Tax is guaranteed to ignite ALL social media/forum/reddit locations with flame posts.
It would make the flames of Delta Rising look like a candle.
A forced tax is not the answer to the Exchange Rate.
Agreed -- charging rent for fleet holdings on top of the hundreds of millions of dil we've already pouring into building up the holdings would not make anyone happy. We already pay dil for every piece of fleet gear we get, that's enough.
I'd support this if Cryptic were to institute some sort of a Fleet Dilithium tax mechanic along with any new holdings.
You want to see everything associated with STO go nuclear? Because a Dilithium Tax is guaranteed to ignite ALL social media/forum/reddit locations with flame posts.
It would make the flames of Delta Rising look like a candle.
A forced tax is not the answer to the Exchange Rate.
Try to remain calm. It can be all too easy to get the torches and pitchforks out after getting overcome with emotion. Try not to focus on anything about candles, flames, ignition, going nuclear, or Delta Rising as they can all be triggering.
I'm trying to address where all this dilithium is going to come from for those proposing expanded fleet holdings as a dil sink.
I never said forced tax, I suggested a Fleet Dilithium tax mechanic and also mentioned an alternative.
I prefer Holdings that are maintained and managed by the Fleets themselves.
Unfortunately proceeding along this route offloads the responsibility and cost for things like dilithium contributions onto what's possibly a very small number of players yet again.
Adding a Fleet dilithium tax mechanic would allow Fleets to manage and perhaps partially offset this to a degree. Just something to help fill projects like the one in the photo.
On the other hand, making new holdings personal could have each player enjoying something that they alone are responsible for.
They would have a choice of progressing their own holding while at the same time helping balance the dilex, or saving up for their next dil to Zen order.
Either of the two systems above would help distribute costs, even though it's unlikely many would like them.
I suspect Rattler is anticipating the extra work load such a thing would introduce.
I could get behind an individual holding setup. You'd have to also introduce a decent carrot to get people to get onboard with it though and Cryptic aren't great with carrots.
Another idea would be moving some stuff from the c-store into the dil store, ship slots, T5U tokens just the smaller stuff. They've shown willing with fleet modules in the rep system. You could tie the individual fleet idea and that together.
Taxes would be the end of the game. As others have said it would make the down shift that happened with delta seem like a road bump. I doubt the game would survive.
A tax system of anykind would be my exit... not because you can't have what's mine... more because it would be proof Cryptic has no intention of continued development.
The answer to the dill issue is simple and we all know what it is... Development >.<
If they seriously want to correct the situation they would develop new holdings, or new gear that requires Dill to upgrade... ect.
There is no quick fix. However there is quick content. IMO they could add gear to the rep systems easy enough... they sunk some Dil when they went to Rep Tier 6 and gave people access to different weapon type rep weapons. They could easily add new or trait spun rep weapons/ship gear/ground gear ect. That is quick and dirty and an on going dill sink as people buy gear and upgrade gear. A fleet holding would be more work... but some of the holdings where much less work then others, a simple holding would be acceptable. Another "lazy" content add on would be to push old holdings out a tier. No reason we couldn't have a new Tier 4 for some of the smaller old holdings... and add some new upgraded versions of old power creeped consoles. As an example does anyone buy Romulan embassy consoles anymore ? No cause they aren't all that useful... but what if a new version with another stat got added to a tier 4 upgrade ?
If Cryptic wants to fix the issue they will need to develop. A tax would signal to me and most people that they have no intention of doing even simple development. If they want to fix the dill market they could with pretty low effort development. So we'll see what they do over the next few months. I get the feeling the game shrunk a bit already... I don't know they have the numbers we'll see what they actually do if anything.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,696Community Moderator
Try to remain calm. It can be all too easy to get the torches and pitchforks out after getting overcome with emotion. Try not to focus on anything about candles, flames, ignition, going nuclear, or Delta Rising as they can all be triggering.
I'm trying to address where all this dilithium is going to come from for those proposing expanded fleet holdings as a dil sink.
I never said forced tax, I suggested a Fleet Dilithium tax mechanic and also mentioned an alternative.
You didn't really elaborate, which implied a forced tax on fleets to maintain their holdings. That in turn implies that if you don't pay the tax, you are punished in some way.
Even if it was "voluntary" and able to be set up by fleet leadership, there are so many ways this can get abused. "Pay your dues in dilithium or get booted out of the fleet" being one example. Any of the more respectable fleets might just ignore the tax option altogther, while some of the more cringe fleets might enforce the tax to weed out casual or inactive members.
And as someone who was around when the forums lit on fire back in Delta Rising... yea... I know how bad things can get here, and that was long before I became a volunteer moderator.
Again, a tax is NOT the answer. It has to be worthwhile and encourage spending dilithium. Not blackmail and force people into another job.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
a tax is NOT the answer. It has to be worthwhile and encourage spending dilithium. Not blackmail and force people into another job.
This - Any new Dil Sink has to be seen as a value added positive to the player base (Dilithium goes in, something cool and useful comes out), not as a punishment or seen as taking away something,
The problem with the fleet dilithium costs is that while it's intended to be a shared burden, it's mostly shouldered by a few individuals. A *better* approach is to make the dilithium costs for fleet holdings and projects lower but greatly increase (by a factor of 10) the costs of fleet items. That makes the dilithium 'cost' of fleet rewards more distributed and the rewards themselves more tangible, as well as increasing the 'on-going' dilithium sink for new players who join the fleet for gear after fleet holdings are complete. It's not 3 *players* spending 500k dilithium. Is dozens of captains spending 250k dilithium each.
Thankfully somebody read things in their entirety and came up with a drama free no nonsense suggestion.
You know, I'm honestly getting sick and tired of people bashing other peoples ideas about how to solve the dilex. Why? Because it isn't OUR job to fix this mess, it's Cryptic's.
THEY are the ones not doing their job here. THEY are the ones at fault; NOT some player offering ideas about how to fix their problem.
People need to take all of their time/energy they spend shooting down other peoples ideas to fix the dilex, and direct that time/energy towards Cryptic.
Instead of replying to some person "um sorry your idea won't work", tweet a dev or Kael about this issue. No, not in a rude way, but in a CONSTANT way.
Again: CRYPTIC are the ones at fault here, NOT any person posting ideas in this thread.
The problem with the fleet dilithium costs is that while it's intended to be a shared burden, it's mostly shouldered by a few individuals. A *better* approach is to make the dilithium costs for fleet holdings and projects lower but greatly increase (by a factor of 10) the costs of fleet items. That makes the dilithium 'cost' of fleet rewards more distributed and the rewards themselves more tangible, as well as increasing the 'on-going' dilithium sink for new players who join the fleet for gear after fleet holdings are complete. It's not 3 *players* spending 500k dilithium. Is dozens of captains spending 250k dilithium each.
Thankfully somebody read things in their entirety and came up with a drama free no nonsense suggestion.
It's hard to tell if you're being sarcastic or sincere, and I'm not going to jump to conclusions one way or the other.
100% a compliment (sincere). Your suggestion made good sense to me and seemed reasonable.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,696Community Moderator
The problem with this is that you're assuming that everyone CAN contribute to fleet projects. In the bigger active fleets its more likely that they CAN'T because the projects get filled up quickly. Its first come, first serve on the inputs. All the more common resources everyone would have would fill up first, leaving the harder to acquire resources like DOffs and Dilithium most of the time, and then those fill up too. Can't guarantee you'll be able to contribute at all, and its not by choice either. Someone seen as a "freeloader" might just be unlucky enough to be incapable of contributing because of timing. We can't assume with most players and their situations.
I'm a fleet leader myself, and I maintain my fleet's casual friendly stance. Contribute what you can when you can. Not "Do it now freeloader".
At least we do agree on the tax thing, because that to me is a red line on fleet membership. I would NEVER impose such a thing on my fleet. Hell... we don't even impose any requirements for fleet contributions for promotions. You want more access to the fleet stores? Its pretty easy. Just be social when we're on, or even just contact a leader if you've been in for a while. Easily bumps you from Recruit to Member. Not "contribute x amount of fleet credits for promotion". But... to each their own on how they run their fleets.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
The problem with this is that you're assuming that everyone CAN contribute to fleet projects. In the bigger active fleets its more likely that they CAN'T because the projects get filled up quickly. Its first come, first serve on the inputs. All the more common resources everyone would have would fill up first, leaving the harder to acquire resources like DOffs and Dilithium most of the time, and then those fill up too. Can't guarantee you'll be able to contribute at all, and its not by choice either. Someone seen as a "freeloader" might just be unlucky enough to be incapable of contributing because of timing. We can't assume with most players and their situations.
I'm a fleet leader myself, and I maintain my fleet's casual friendly stance. Contribute what you can when you can. Not "Do it now freeloader".
At least we do agree on the tax thing, because that to me is a red line on fleet membership. I would NEVER impose such a thing on my fleet. Hell... we don't even impose any requirements for fleet contributions for promotions. You want more access to the fleet stores? Its pretty easy. Just be social when we're on, or even just contact a leader if you've been in for a while. Easily bumps you from Recruit to Member. Not "contribute x amount of fleet credits for promotion". But... to each their own on how they run their fleets.
We are in complete agreement.
Many Fleets have their rules clearly posted. I've never seen a Fleet in which contributions are mandatory.
I think a great deal of caution should be used in assigning labels. If a new or casual player has time to do a TFO for their Fleet every Sunday do they deserve a label? We shouldn't make assumptions.
I think Sirsitsalot asks many interesting rhetorical questions as someone who has never been involved in Fleet leadership.
But perhaps there are some more immediate questions to be asked...
Is it reasonable for Cryptic to continue to create deliberate imbalances in holding inputs like they did with the Colony holding in order to provide a dilithium sink or is their a better way ?
Is having players who happen to be associated with Fleets shoulder those costs fair ?
The problem with the fleet dilithium costs is that while it's intended to be a shared burden, it's mostly shouldered by a few individuals. A *better* approach is to make the dilithium costs for fleet holdings and projects lower but greatly increase (by a factor of 10) the costs of fleet items. That makes the dilithium 'cost' of fleet rewards more distributed and the rewards themselves more tangible, as well as increasing the 'on-going' dilithium sink for new players who join the fleet for gear after fleet holdings are complete. It's not 3 *players* spending 500k dilithium. Is dozens of captains spending 250k dilithium each.
Finally, an actual rational idea!
It's tiring seeing the same people over and over implying that new holdings are the 'magic bullet' when in reality, all they are is a tax and a burden on fleet leaders. This suggestion actually spreads the burden to fleet members and doesn't just depend on punishing fleet leadership for Cryptic's incompetent handling of the in game economy.
Most good ideas get ignored around here, but thanks anyway for posting it. It was a refreshing blast of common sense.
The problem with the fleet dilithium costs is that while it's intended to be a shared burden, it's mostly shouldered by a few individuals. A *better* approach is to make the dilithium costs for fleet holdings and projects lower but greatly increase (by a factor of 10) the costs of fleet items. That makes the dilithium 'cost' of fleet rewards more distributed and the rewards themselves more tangible, as well as increasing the 'on-going' dilithium sink for new players who join the fleet for gear after fleet holdings are complete. It's not 3 *players* spending 500k dilithium. Is dozens of captains spending 250k dilithium each.
Finally, an actual rational idea!
It's tiring seeing the same people over and over implying that new holdings are the 'magic bullet' when in reality, all they are is a tax and a burden on fleet leaders. This suggestion actually spreads the burden to fleet members and doesn't just depend on punishing fleet leadership for Cryptic's incompetent handling of the in game economy.
Most good ideas get ignored around here, but thanks anyway for posting it. It was a refreshing blast of common sense.
Well increasing costs on items that have been around for years is a non starter I think. That just punishes new players. Having said that... we have a bunch of old fleet gear no one uses that could use improvement. Perhaps it is time to add a fourth tier to holdings like the mine/embassy/k13... They don't have to add a ton of high dill costs to upgrade it, but perhaps +1 versions of all the fleet consoles and gear with much higher dill costs would be a good quick fix. They could do one holding every 3-6 months and stretch it out for a couple years of Dill sink. Perhaps they could make exploders good again... or take the mine armor consoles and add a +crit chance to them or something.
Another idea... we have T6x ship upgrades. Why not have x version upgrades for ALL gear. Only don't sell the upgrades in the store. Sell them for a set Dill cost, or phoenix tokens. The x tokens could unlock one more Mod for items. Cryptic could select 3-4 possible mods per item, and then also sell rerolls on them. So as an example a Damage console could be xd and add one of [crtx] [crtd] [crth]. A engine could be xd and add one of of [speed] [turn] [aux].
Sell Item x class upgrades for 20,000 dill each... or one purple phoenix token or something. Its a way of going to MK 15.5 and charging MORE Dill instead of just bumping everything up a mark.
Fleet holdings are at best a stop gap measure because once they're complete the system will be back to the broken state it's been in since cryptics greedonomics nuke on the zen store caused the dilex to march steadily upwards exactly as predicted by pretty much everyone.
Muggs market has reduced the desirability of phoenix outside upgrading, which serves no real purpose in a game with such a horizontal difficulty curve so again the panic measure of making those boxes available all the time was just another finger in the TRIBBLE trying to stop things getting too bad too quickly. Awful drop chance for the higher grade tokens also doesn't incentivise them either.
I've said in the past instead of burying the cosmetic shields in a chance of a chance gamblebox nonsense (you need to gamble for the weapon crate and then gamble that it has the shield) they use those as a dil sink item on a per character basis. Way back when, you could buy ship cosmetics in the cash shop so why not bring those back but to the dil store.
Fleet tax was mentioned but that reduces the incentive to be in a fleet unless it was to pay for a buff of some sort, although don't know what buff you'd apply given the aforementioned flat difficulty curve.
The current state of the exchange was very predictable and something that was warned about but cryptic stuck to their policy of greedonomics over the long term health of the game. The buyout by gearbox does seem to have shone a light on a possible reason but I'd love to see how they tried to explain to the new owners what they planned to do to rectify the situation.
I prefer Holdings that are maintained and managed by the Fleets themselves.
Unfortunately proceeding along this route offloads the responsibility and cost for things like dilithium contributions onto what's possibly a very small number of players yet again.
Adding a Fleet dilithium tax mechanic would allow Fleets to manage and perhaps partially offset this to a degree. Just something to help fill projects like the one in the photo.
On the other hand, making new holdings personal could have each player enjoying something that they alone are responsible for.
They would have a choice of progressing their own holding while at the same time helping balance the dilex, or saving up for their next dil to Zen order.
Either of the two systems above would help distribute costs, even though it's unlikely many would like them.
Disagree, people need to have the choice where, and when they want to deposit their DIL. I'd fear if you'd want to see people leave Fleets far faster than they join, a Tax would would accomplish that in spades. The current system is JUST FINE, as it lets people donate when they choose; yet if they want to earn rewards in their Fleet, they have to earn Fleet Credit to unlock options for purchase at those Holdings in addition to saving some DIL.
The current system is very fair, and for those who have 10's of Millions of Credit's, go buy Fleet DOFF (Starbase & Colony) and then sell them on the Exchange for added Credit. There are options for everyone, regardless what path you take!
I have ZERO problems if they introduced a new Holding, or if they just expanded one Tier III Holding out to IV once every 1-2 years. Leaders can also choose to be a bit more patient, not everything needs to be a rush either, some players are casual and working on upgrading their gear.
Everyone has a different focus, nothing wrong with that either!
I prefer Holdings that are maintained and managed by the Fleets themselves.
Unfortunately proceeding along this route offloads the responsibility and cost for things like dilithium contributions onto what's possibly a very small number of players yet again.
Adding a Fleet dilithium tax mechanic would allow Fleets to manage and perhaps partially offset this to a degree. Just something to help fill projects like the one in the photo.
On the other hand, making new holdings personal could have each player enjoying something that they alone are responsible for.
They would have a choice of progressing their own holding while at the same time helping balance the dilex, or saving up for their next dil to Zen order.
Either of the two systems above would help distribute costs, even though it's unlikely many would like them.
Disagree, people need to have the choice where, and when they want to deposit their DIL.
I agree. I also want the choice where and when I want to deposit my DIL but haven't had that option in many years due to Cryptic's current Fleet tax.
I'd fear if you'd want to see people leave Fleets far faster than they join, a Tax would would accomplish that in spades.
I agree. Cryptic's current Fleet tax has already seen Fleet members leave the game at an unprecedented rate. Adding a second mechanic on top of the current one wouldn't be popular which is exactly the reason I suggested it while simultaneously providing other possible options for people to discuss.
The current system is JUST FINE, as it lets people donate when they choose; yet if they want to earn rewards in their Fleet, they have to earn Fleet Credit to unlock options for purchase at those Holdings in addition to saving some DIL.
I disagree. The current system is nothing more than a product of Cryptic creating a deliberate imbalance in Fleet holding inputs in order to provide a dilithium sink. It's a TAX in itself and one that makes it difficult at best for new and casual players to get the Fleet credits they need with such a high cost per Fleet mark input.
The current system is very fair, and for those who have 10's of Millions of Credit's, go buy Fleet DOFF (Starbase & Colony) and then sell them on the Exchange for some added Credit. Their are options to everyone, regardless what path you take.
The current system isn't fair to those left with the bill for Cryptic's Fleet tax.
I have ZERO problems if they introduced a new Holding, or if they just expanded one Tier III Holding out to IV once every 1-2 years. Leaders can also choose to be a bit more patient, not everything needs to be a rush either, some players are casual and working on upgrading their gear.
Everyone has a different focus, nothing wrong with that either!
I'm working on upgrading my gear as well and have complete respect for casual and newer players. That is why I try to pay their portion of Cryptic's Fleet tax prior to further developing any of my own characters.
I don't mind that it took A DECADE to finally fully upgrade the gear on one character or not having the DIL to create even ONE dil to Zen order even after playing STO continuously since 2011 because I try to be patient and put others first.
It doesn't mean I want Cryptic's current Fleet tax to continue though. I hope that there's another way that's fair for everyone.
Well increasing costs on items that have been around for years is a non starter I think.
Disagreed. There is nothing preventing them from re-balancing costs. Sure, some people would complain, but not like people are happy now.
That just punishes new players.
Again, I don't see it. Everything in the game rewards Dilithium, players need something to spend it on. Putting the added cost on fleet gear is the only way to effectively spread the cost to ALL players and not just fleet leaders. If a new fleet holding is added, fleets are likely to start requiring contributions to unlock the right to buy fleet gear because they want everyone to contribute. Either way, that new player is going to have to pay for fleet gear.. just like everyone else. It's not like new players are starved for Dilithium, it's awarded to them at every turn.
Comments
I mean they could even have a members of the Ferengi Commerce Commission NPC's in time setup a new table, everyone as upgrades progressed could unlock and buy things with. Yet not being a Fleet Holding wouldn't unlock a Transwarp either. Perhaps also be far larger contributions of Fleet Marks, Common Duty Officers, and several others as well. Still I think challenge to Cryptic would find right balance and how many tiers of upgrades to unlock things... ...how many, or what things could it unlock would be unknown. The problem being a Community Holding, more might be less likely to donate DIL to upgrades, at least in larger #'s; still they'd need to ask for some. So perhaps they instead approached it different, ask for more at purchase?
It also be WISE for Ferengi to ask for GPL to buy things with Commerce Credits, in addition to Dilithium.
They shouldn't show how much each Character has contributed in a common Community Holding, or the list be miles long. Though you'd see your progress of Commerce Credits maximum earned, and that remaining on each Character for sure. I'd recommend they just show which Faction Fed or KDF, or Sub-Faction Romulan or Dominion had contributed to each phase of community holding upgrade? So Fed, KDF, Romulan's or Dominion, I'm sure that's how they'd approach it as well... ...could also inspire which Faction helps redesign the broken station arm, or perhaps updates the interior a bit too?
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Still I'd be fine if they instead upgraded all existing Tier III Holdings, 1 every year or two out to Tier IV... ...as that also require far less time to update as well, with only a few minor updates to looks, and also expand items to purchase at each Holding too. Both however have existing models that be easy to update.
For example: Drozanna some Station Arms are fine, so copy a non broken one, then reinforce Hull given with Federation modern supplies to update the look by various Alliance Factions, inspired by the Faction or Sub-Faction who contributes the most.
I'd support this if Cryptic were to institute some sort of a Fleet Dilithium tax mechanic along with any new holdings.
Another option would be to have any new holding as personal holdings so individuals could be in charge of their own progress.
This would enable each player to fill their own projects at a pace that's comfortable to them.
That is another interesting idea as well, and I'd like it very much!
I prefer Holdings that are maintained and managed by the Fleets themselves. I still like the Fleet Holding growing Tier III out to IV, because it wouldn't require a whole new holding being designed, mostly as it be faster to update with a few subtle changes. It also allow them to introduce one every year or two for the next 5-10; people also only be expanding from where they left off. It also allow some new things to purchase at some older holdings as well...
Even though some donate more DIL than others. If you have a lot of credit there are things you can buy, and have lots of choices with what to do with it, as there options to spend a lot of it. So no complains what-ever they choose.
Still I like the Community Holding idea I presented about Drozana Station, solely because it's always in Neglect by the Ferengi.
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NOTE: It was down to 2.5 million backlog a week ago, down from 4.2 million 5-6 weeks before. Yet now up to almost 3. Be NICE if they though up some new Fleet Holding like the Artifact, or expanded Tier III out to IV for 1 every year or two...
You want to see everything associated with STO go nuclear? Because a Dilithium Tax is guaranteed to ignite ALL social media/forum/reddit locations with flame posts.
It would make the flames of Delta Rising look like a candle.
A forced tax is not the answer to the Exchange Rate.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Agreed -- charging rent for fleet holdings on top of the hundreds of millions of dil we've already pouring into building up the holdings would not make anyone happy. We already pay dil for every piece of fleet gear we get, that's enough.
Try to remain calm. It can be all too easy to get the torches and pitchforks out after getting overcome with emotion. Try not to focus on anything about candles, flames, ignition, going nuclear, or Delta Rising as they can all be triggering.
I'm trying to address where all this dilithium is going to come from for those proposing expanded fleet holdings as a dil sink.
I never said forced tax, I suggested a Fleet Dilithium tax mechanic and also mentioned an alternative.
Unfortunately proceeding along this route offloads the responsibility and cost for things like dilithium contributions onto what's possibly a very small number of players yet again.
Adding a Fleet dilithium tax mechanic would allow Fleets to manage and perhaps partially offset this to a degree. Just something to help fill projects like the one in the photo.
On the other hand, making new holdings personal could have each player enjoying something that they alone are responsible for.
They would have a choice of progressing their own holding while at the same time helping balance the dilex, or saving up for their next dil to Zen order.
Either of the two systems above would help distribute costs, even though it's unlikely many would like them.
I could get behind an individual holding setup. You'd have to also introduce a decent carrot to get people to get onboard with it though and Cryptic aren't great with carrots.
Another idea would be moving some stuff from the c-store into the dil store, ship slots, T5U tokens just the smaller stuff. They've shown willing with fleet modules in the rep system. You could tie the individual fleet idea and that together.
Just spitballing here.
A tax system of anykind would be my exit... not because you can't have what's mine... more because it would be proof Cryptic has no intention of continued development.
The answer to the dill issue is simple and we all know what it is... Development >.<
If they seriously want to correct the situation they would develop new holdings, or new gear that requires Dill to upgrade... ect.
There is no quick fix. However there is quick content. IMO they could add gear to the rep systems easy enough... they sunk some Dil when they went to Rep Tier 6 and gave people access to different weapon type rep weapons. They could easily add new or trait spun rep weapons/ship gear/ground gear ect. That is quick and dirty and an on going dill sink as people buy gear and upgrade gear. A fleet holding would be more work... but some of the holdings where much less work then others, a simple holding would be acceptable. Another "lazy" content add on would be to push old holdings out a tier. No reason we couldn't have a new Tier 4 for some of the smaller old holdings... and add some new upgraded versions of old power creeped consoles. As an example does anyone buy Romulan embassy consoles anymore ? No cause they aren't all that useful... but what if a new version with another stat got added to a tier 4 upgrade ?
If Cryptic wants to fix the issue they will need to develop. A tax would signal to me and most people that they have no intention of doing even simple development. If they want to fix the dill market they could with pretty low effort development. So we'll see what they do over the next few months. I get the feeling the game shrunk a bit already... I don't know they have the numbers we'll see what they actually do if anything.
You didn't really elaborate, which implied a forced tax on fleets to maintain their holdings. That in turn implies that if you don't pay the tax, you are punished in some way.
Even if it was "voluntary" and able to be set up by fleet leadership, there are so many ways this can get abused. "Pay your dues in dilithium or get booted out of the fleet" being one example. Any of the more respectable fleets might just ignore the tax option altogther, while some of the more cringe fleets might enforce the tax to weed out casual or inactive members.
And as someone who was around when the forums lit on fire back in Delta Rising... yea... I know how bad things can get here, and that was long before I became a volunteer moderator.
Again, a tax is NOT the answer. It has to be worthwhile and encourage spending dilithium. Not blackmail and force people into another job.
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This - Any new Dil Sink has to be seen as a value added positive to the player base (Dilithium goes in, something cool and useful comes out), not as a punishment or seen as taking away something,
THEY are the ones not doing their job here. THEY are the ones at fault; NOT some player offering ideas about how to fix their problem.
People need to take all of their time/energy they spend shooting down other peoples ideas to fix the dilex, and direct that time/energy towards Cryptic.
Instead of replying to some person "um sorry your idea won't work", tweet a dev or Kael about this issue. No, not in a rude way, but in a CONSTANT way.
Again: CRYPTIC are the ones at fault here, NOT any person posting ideas in this thread.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
100% a compliment (sincere). Your suggestion made good sense to me and seemed reasonable.
I'm a fleet leader myself, and I maintain my fleet's casual friendly stance. Contribute what you can when you can. Not "Do it now freeloader".
At least we do agree on the tax thing, because that to me is a red line on fleet membership. I would NEVER impose such a thing on my fleet. Hell... we don't even impose any requirements for fleet contributions for promotions. You want more access to the fleet stores? Its pretty easy. Just be social when we're on, or even just contact a leader if you've been in for a while. Easily bumps you from Recruit to Member. Not "contribute x amount of fleet credits for promotion". But... to each their own on how they run their fleets.
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Many Fleets have their rules clearly posted. I've never seen a Fleet in which contributions are mandatory.
I think a great deal of caution should be used in assigning labels. If a new or casual player has time to do a TFO for their Fleet every Sunday do they deserve a label? We shouldn't make assumptions.
I think Sirsitsalot asks many interesting rhetorical questions as someone who has never been involved in Fleet leadership.
But perhaps there are some more immediate questions to be asked...
Is it reasonable for Cryptic to continue to create deliberate imbalances in holding inputs like they did with the Colony holding in order to provide a dilithium sink or is their a better way ?
Is having players who happen to be associated with Fleets shoulder those costs fair ?
Finally, an actual rational idea!
It's tiring seeing the same people over and over implying that new holdings are the 'magic bullet' when in reality, all they are is a tax and a burden on fleet leaders. This suggestion actually spreads the burden to fleet members and doesn't just depend on punishing fleet leadership for Cryptic's incompetent handling of the in game economy.
Most good ideas get ignored around here, but thanks anyway for posting it. It was a refreshing blast of common sense.
Well increasing costs on items that have been around for years is a non starter I think. That just punishes new players. Having said that... we have a bunch of old fleet gear no one uses that could use improvement. Perhaps it is time to add a fourth tier to holdings like the mine/embassy/k13... They don't have to add a ton of high dill costs to upgrade it, but perhaps +1 versions of all the fleet consoles and gear with much higher dill costs would be a good quick fix. They could do one holding every 3-6 months and stretch it out for a couple years of Dill sink. Perhaps they could make exploders good again... or take the mine armor consoles and add a +crit chance to them or something.
Another idea... we have T6x ship upgrades. Why not have x version upgrades for ALL gear. Only don't sell the upgrades in the store. Sell them for a set Dill cost, or phoenix tokens. The x tokens could unlock one more Mod for items. Cryptic could select 3-4 possible mods per item, and then also sell rerolls on them. So as an example a Damage console could be xd and add one of [crtx] [crtd] [crth]. A engine could be xd and add one of of [speed] [turn] [aux].
Sell Item x class upgrades for 20,000 dill each... or one purple phoenix token or something. Its a way of going to MK 15.5 and charging MORE Dill instead of just bumping everything up a mark.
Muggs market has reduced the desirability of phoenix outside upgrading, which serves no real purpose in a game with such a horizontal difficulty curve so again the panic measure of making those boxes available all the time was just another finger in the TRIBBLE trying to stop things getting too bad too quickly. Awful drop chance for the higher grade tokens also doesn't incentivise them either.
I've said in the past instead of burying the cosmetic shields in a chance of a chance gamblebox nonsense (you need to gamble for the weapon crate and then gamble that it has the shield) they use those as a dil sink item on a per character basis. Way back when, you could buy ship cosmetics in the cash shop so why not bring those back but to the dil store.
Fleet tax was mentioned but that reduces the incentive to be in a fleet unless it was to pay for a buff of some sort, although don't know what buff you'd apply given the aforementioned flat difficulty curve.
The current state of the exchange was very predictable and something that was warned about but cryptic stuck to their policy of greedonomics over the long term health of the game. The buyout by gearbox does seem to have shone a light on a possible reason but I'd love to see how they tried to explain to the new owners what they planned to do to rectify the situation.
Disagree, people need to have the choice where, and when they want to deposit their DIL. I'd fear if you'd want to see people leave Fleets far faster than they join, a Tax would would accomplish that in spades. The current system is JUST FINE, as it lets people donate when they choose; yet if they want to earn rewards in their Fleet, they have to earn Fleet Credit to unlock options for purchase at those Holdings in addition to saving some DIL.
The current system is very fair, and for those who have 10's of Millions of Credit's, go buy Fleet DOFF (Starbase & Colony) and then sell them on the Exchange for added Credit. There are options for everyone, regardless what path you take!
I have ZERO problems if they introduced a new Holding, or if they just expanded one Tier III Holding out to IV once every 1-2 years. Leaders can also choose to be a bit more patient, not everything needs to be a rush either, some players are casual and working on upgrading their gear.
Everyone has a different focus, nothing wrong with that either!
I agree. Cryptic's current Fleet tax has already seen Fleet members leave the game at an unprecedented rate. Adding a second mechanic on top of the current one wouldn't be popular which is exactly the reason I suggested it while simultaneously providing other possible options for people to discuss.
I disagree. The current system is nothing more than a product of Cryptic creating a deliberate imbalance in Fleet holding inputs in order to provide a dilithium sink. It's a TAX in itself and one that makes it difficult at best for new and casual players to get the Fleet credits they need with such a high cost per Fleet mark input.
The current system isn't fair to those left with the bill for Cryptic's Fleet tax.
I'm working on upgrading my gear as well and have complete respect for casual and newer players. That is why I try to pay their portion of Cryptic's Fleet tax prior to further developing any of my own characters.
I don't mind that it took A DECADE to finally fully upgrade the gear on one character or not having the DIL to create even ONE dil to Zen order even after playing STO continuously since 2011 because I try to be patient and put others first.
It doesn't mean I want Cryptic's current Fleet tax to continue though. I hope that there's another way that's fair for everyone.
Disagreed. There is nothing preventing them from re-balancing costs. Sure, some people would complain, but not like people are happy now.
Again, I don't see it. Everything in the game rewards Dilithium, players need something to spend it on. Putting the added cost on fleet gear is the only way to effectively spread the cost to ALL players and not just fleet leaders. If a new fleet holding is added, fleets are likely to start requiring contributions to unlock the right to buy fleet gear because they want everyone to contribute. Either way, that new player is going to have to pay for fleet gear.. just like everyone else. It's not like new players are starved for Dilithium, it's awarded to them at every turn.
Agreed. And a poor one at that. It's a stop gap tax on fleet leadership and an overall bad idea.
Fleet Holdings as a Dilithium Sink is just doing things the way they have always been done. A system proven not to work.