> @mikewallace#2209 said:
> Legal but really deceiving from their part. Really quick to hit it with the nerf hammer and DOA.
Take it as a display of incompetence rather than foul play ok?
I actually think it’s a mix of both.
They introduce stuff that’s insanely over powered because they have no idea how the game actually works. Once they are surprised by how powerful their new item is, they look at rather or not people are buying it. If so, they work on the fix at a leisurely rate and then implement it when sales slow. Look at what they did with the original Advanced Phasers.. yes, they said early that they were going to nerf them, but the fix didn’t go in until the ship was no longer for sale. There have been plenty of examples of this over the course of the games life.
It’s absolutely incompetence, but they have learned how to profit from said incompetence.
Maybe if they actually tested things before they threw them in game....or even just cared about balance. But why would they care about such a thing? They benefited from this...players buying out
I'm sure this bait and switch netted them a few dollars
So, the question is, if the problem was that it gave the crit chance boost on ALL foes rather than just the ones held, was that not fixable? Why completely change it to bonus damage to held foes?
And in that case, shouldn't the announcements and descriptions be changed to match? Let people know what they might be buying after the changes.
The majority of the replies I have read don't say the item couldn't or shouldn't have been changed if it was broken. There are, however, possible questions to be asked about how it was done and communicated.
I don't like it when stuff is busted anymore than anyone else does, but folks also need to realize that sometimes things simply go south and don't go as planned. Sometimes things break. As to why it was changed from crit chance to bonus damage, that's one you would have to ask them ultimately. As to why it might change I can think of an easy one off the top of my head, every build would now suddenly have tractor beam on the build just to pop an extra 20% crit chance on a target. They didn't want it becoming the second coming of Plasmonic Leech and the Plasma Exploders. Folks might say they should have thought about that before making it crit chance, but at the end of the day it's been changed. Folks don't have to like the change, and are free to say they don't like it and wish it had stayed crit chance. We can also debate whether it was communicated well or not.
Folks are also under no obligations to drop cash on it. That's 100% on you if you decide to drop cash to buy it out early instead of just earning it for free. Again I get that folks don't like the changes, but folks also need to realize that if something needs to be changed for the overall health of the game, it's going to be changed. It's unreasonable that some folks expect no changes to ever occur to an item unless it's a buff, simply because they dropped cash to get it early in a free to play game.
> @mikewallace#2209 said:
> Legal but really deceiving from their part. Really quick to hit it with the nerf hammer and DOA.
Take it as a display of incompetence rather than foul play ok?
I actually think it’s a mix of both.
They introduce stuff that’s insanely over powered because they have no idea how the game actually works. Once they are surprised by how powerful their new item is, they look at rather or not people are buying it. If so, they work on the fix at a leisurely rate and then implement it when sales slow. Look at what they did with the original Advanced Phasers.. yes, they said early that they were going to nerf them, but the fix didn’t go in until the ship was no longer for sale. There have been plenty of examples of this over the course of the games life.
It’s absolutely incompetence, but they have learned how to profit from said incompetence.
Maybe if they actually tested things before they threw them in game....or even just cared about balance. But why would they care about such a thing? They benefited from this...players buying out
I'm sure this bait and switch netted them a few dollars
As I said years ago when folks complained about the Kemocite fix, them fixing a broken item isn't a bait and switch. They said up front the console was broken, just like they said Kemocite was broken. Folks continued to buy the console out early just like people continued to invest into kemocite. If one invests into something they know is broken, they have no business complaining when it eventually gets fixed. Folks not liking the change doesn't constitute a bait and switch, it's Cryptic changing an item and them being offended. There is no grand conspiracy against the players that some people seem to think there is.
Lastly Cryptic like alot of companies works in cycles. If an issue isn't caught until the tip end of the development cycle, there may not be time to fix it until the next cycle rolls over.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
And while it's not quite the same console it was first planned as, still a very good console for those who have Tetryon Energy builds as it was designed.
your use of the word „sometimes“ is breathtaking! You should be in game as long as I am. Veterans not only make fun of cryptics regular poo ups for years but also fully calculate that items have a massive chance to be released broken and wait it out accordingly by now. It’s really only about the small group of peeps who get lost to this place who still feel puzzled or upset and naturally wonder if those are just unavoidable mistakes or calculated business practices as they happen so often and require invests. Those poor guys only look for second opinions.
Respect man, I really could not bring my self to deliver yours.
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They release something broken.. put out one line in twitter saying it's broken and will be fixed 'later.'
Then they leave it in game, let people buy it up and then when they have a good sum of money from it.. then they 'fix' it. And everyone is just supposed to know that because they tweet one or two lines? Anyone that acquired the item in that window is supposed to automatically know?
Sure, that sounds fair. They continually release things that are broken.. they do it over and over again for years.. sometimes they take literally YEARS to fix (nerf) an item.. and then when the players don't like it.. it's their fault.
So, the question is, if the problem was that it gave the crit chance boost on ALL foes rather than just the ones held, was that not fixable? Why completely change it to bonus damage to held foes?
And in that case, shouldn't the announcements and descriptions be changed to match? Let people know what they might be buying after the changes.
The majority of the replies I have read don't say the item couldn't or shouldn't have been changed if it was broken. There are, however, possible questions to be asked about how it was done and communicated.
I don't like it when stuff is busted anymore than anyone else does, but folks also need to realize that sometimes things simply go south and don't go as planned. Sometimes things break. As to why it was changed from crit chance to bonus damage, that's one you would have to ask them ultimately. As to why it might change I can think of an easy one off the top of my head, every build would now suddenly have tractor beam on the build just to pop an extra 20% crit chance on a target. They didn't want it becoming the second coming of Plasmonic Leech and the Plasma Exploders. Folks might say they should have thought about that before making it crit chance, but at the end of the day it's been changed. Folks don't have to like the change, and are free to say they don't like it and wish it had stayed crit chance. We can also debate whether it was communicated well or not.
Folks are also under no obligations to drop cash on it. That's 100% on you if you decide to drop cash to buy it out early instead of just earning it for free. Again I get that folks don't like the changes, but folks also need to realize that if something needs to be changed for the overall health of the game, it's going to be changed. It's unreasonable that some folks expect no changes to ever occur to an item unless it's a buff, simply because they dropped cash to get it early in a free to play game.
> @mikewallace#2209 said:
> Legal but really deceiving from their part. Really quick to hit it with the nerf hammer and DOA.
Take it as a display of incompetence rather than foul play ok?
I actually think it’s a mix of both.
They introduce stuff that’s insanely over powered because they have no idea how the game actually works. Once they are surprised by how powerful their new item is, they look at rather or not people are buying it. If so, they work on the fix at a leisurely rate and then implement it when sales slow. Look at what they did with the original Advanced Phasers.. yes, they said early that they were going to nerf them, but the fix didn’t go in until the ship was no longer for sale. There have been plenty of examples of this over the course of the games life.
It’s absolutely incompetence, but they have learned how to profit from said incompetence.
Maybe if they actually tested things before they threw them in game....or even just cared about balance. But why would they care about such a thing? They benefited from this...players buying out
I'm sure this bait and switch netted them a few dollars
As I said years ago when folks complained about the Kemocite fix, them fixing a broken item isn't a bait and switch. They said up front the console was broken, just like they said Kemocite was broken. Folks continued to buy the console out early just like people continued to invest into kemocite. If one invests into something they know is broken, they have no business complaining when it eventually gets fixed. Folks not liking the change doesn't constitute a bait and switch, it's Cryptic changing an item and them being offended. There is no grand conspiracy against the players that some people seem to think there is.
Lastly Cryptic like alot of companies works in cycles. If an issue isn't caught until the tip end of the development cycle, there may not be time to fix it until the next cycle rolls over.
We should stay focussed on the pure 'bait & switch' elements here, and not start a strawman about whether broken stuff should stay broken -- as namely literally no one is arguing the latter.
The console promised an insane amount of extra crits. Then the part that was broken didn't just get fixed, but the proc materially changed into a lame bit of extra dmg. That is not fixing stuff: that is simply 'bait & switch' at its finest.
Also, not buying into the whole 'But we tweeted about it' spiel. They have an official forum. Twitter ain't it.
We can also debate whether it was communicated well or not.
I'm not sure how much of a debate it would be. As I have said a few times now, the bigger problem I see is that the changes to the console are still not reflected in either the original announcement or the in-game description when you click "reward info" to see what you will be getting. Both still have the crit increase listed.
Folks are also under no obligations to drop cash on it. That's 100% on you if you decide to drop cash to buy it out early instead of just earning it for free. Again I get that folks don't like the changes, but folks also need to realize that if something needs to be changed for the overall health of the game, it's going to be changed. It's unreasonable that some folks expect no changes to ever occur to an item unless it's a buff, simply because they dropped cash to get it early in a free to play game.
No argument from me. I think buying out the events that early is both a risk and a waste. But if someone were to look at the announcement now? Or go into the game and look at the console description toward the end of the event when they don't have enough time to get the 14 days? They would still see that it "dramatically improves Critical Strike Chance against Held enemies". And that is not what they would be buying.
So yes, no argument that broken things need to be changed. No argument that sometimes a broken thing goes live and that does not automatically mean any malicious intent. But when they do need to change something so significantly and then don't do the work to communicate it properly, that is on them.
That is the core of my issue here. Nothing to do with not liking the change. I happen to think the console is still pretty decent and plan to try a build using it for fun.
We can also debate whether it was communicated well or not.
I'm not sure how much of a debate it would be. As I have said a few times now, the bigger problem I see is that the changes to the console are still not reflected in either the original announcement or the in-game description when you click "reward info" to see what you will be getting. Both still have the crit increase listed.
Folks are also under no obligations to drop cash on it. That's 100% on you if you decide to drop cash to buy it out early instead of just earning it for free. Again I get that folks don't like the changes, but folks also need to realize that if something needs to be changed for the overall health of the game, it's going to be changed. It's unreasonable that some folks expect no changes to ever occur to an item unless it's a buff, simply because they dropped cash to get it early in a free to play game.
No argument from me. I think buying out the events that early is both a risk and a waste. But if someone were to look at the announcement now? Or go into the game and look at the console description toward the end of the event when they don't have enough time to get the 14 days? They would still see that it "dramatically improves Critical Strike Chance against Held enemies". And that is not what they would be buying.
So yes, no argument that broken things need to be changed. No argument that sometimes a broken thing goes live and that does not automatically mean any malicious intent. But when they do need to change something so significantly and then don't do the work to communicate it properly, that is on them.
That is the core of my issue here. Nothing to do with not liking the change. I happen to think the console is still pretty decent and plan to try a build using it for fun.
I think part of it is that they cannot change the "more information" descriptions without a recompile, and they are probably too busy with the YoK end patch to do that for what they probably see as a minor typo.
So, the question is, if the problem was that it gave the crit chance boost on ALL foes rather than just the ones held, was that not fixable? Why completely change it to bonus damage to held foes?
And in that case, shouldn't the announcements and descriptions be changed to match? Let people know what they might be buying after the changes.
The majority of the replies I have read don't say the item couldn't or shouldn't have been changed if it was broken. There are, however, possible questions to be asked about how it was done and communicated.
I don't like it when stuff is busted anymore than anyone else does, but folks also need to realize that sometimes things simply go south and don't go as planned. Sometimes things break. As to why it was changed from crit chance to bonus damage, that's one you would have to ask them ultimately. As to why it might change I can think of an easy one off the top of my head, every build would now suddenly have tractor beam on the build just to pop an extra 20% crit chance on a target. They didn't want it becoming the second coming of Plasmonic Leech and the Plasma Exploders. Folks might say they should have thought about that before making it crit chance, but at the end of the day it's been changed. Folks don't have to like the change, and are free to say they don't like it and wish it had stayed crit chance. We can also debate whether it was communicated well or not.
Folks are also under no obligations to drop cash on it. That's 100% on you if you decide to drop cash to buy it out early instead of just earning it for free. Again I get that folks don't like the changes, but folks also need to realize that if something needs to be changed for the overall health of the game, it's going to be changed. It's unreasonable that some folks expect no changes to ever occur to an item unless it's a buff, simply because they dropped cash to get it early in a free to play game.
> @mikewallace#2209 said:
> Legal but really deceiving from their part. Really quick to hit it with the nerf hammer and DOA.
Take it as a display of incompetence rather than foul play ok?
I actually think it’s a mix of both.
They introduce stuff that’s insanely over powered because they have no idea how the game actually works. Once they are surprised by how powerful their new item is, they look at rather or not people are buying it. If so, they work on the fix at a leisurely rate and then implement it when sales slow. Look at what they did with the original Advanced Phasers.. yes, they said early that they were going to nerf them, but the fix didn’t go in until the ship was no longer for sale. There have been plenty of examples of this over the course of the games life.
It’s absolutely incompetence, but they have learned how to profit from said incompetence.
Maybe if they actually tested things before they threw them in game....or even just cared about balance. But why would they care about such a thing? They benefited from this...players buying out
I'm sure this bait and switch netted them a few dollars
As I said years ago when folks complained about the Kemocite fix, them fixing a broken item isn't a bait and switch. They said up front the console was broken, just like they said Kemocite was broken. Folks continued to buy the console out early just like people continued to invest into kemocite. If one invests into something they know is broken, they have no business complaining when it eventually gets fixed. Folks not liking the change doesn't constitute a bait and switch, it's Cryptic changing an item and them being offended. There is no grand conspiracy against the players that some people seem to think there is.
Lastly Cryptic like alot of companies works in cycles. If an issue isn't caught until the tip end of the development cycle, there may not be time to fix it until the next cycle rolls over.
Once again, maybe it wouldn't be if they tested this stuff...but they don't because they're lazy. They're quick to deploy without testing things and when they're broke the players suffer for dev laze and incompetence
This isn't the first time it's happened and you can bet your bottom dollar this definitely wont be the last time
They release something broken.. put out one line in twitter saying it's broken and will be fixed 'later.'
Then they leave it in game, let people buy it up and then when they have a good sum of money from it.. then they 'fix' it. And everyone is just supposed to know that because they tweet one or two lines? Anyone that acquired the item in that window is supposed to automatically know?
Sure, that sounds fair. They continually release things that are broken.. they do it over and over again for years.. sometimes they take literally YEARS to fix (nerf) an item.. and then when the players don't like it.. it's their fault.
Sure.. whatever.
I know folks don't like this and probably think I'm talking out of my aft shuttle bay when I say this, but it takes time to fix things properly when dealing with games. Most of the time it's not an immediate fix. If folks want it done right it won't be quick, and if they want it done quick it won't be done right. That's generally the case most of the time. Simply because they don't fix something as fast as you would like does NOT mean they're doing nothing about it. The Kemocite issue was known for a good long while before the fix made it to live servers. Cryptic had already made known it was broken and was going to be fixed. Because it took a long time to get the fix out, people made the assumption that because it wasn't fixed in X timeframe it must have been working as intended, even though Cryptic never said it was working correctly. When it was finally fixed folks threw a massive hissy fit because they grew accustomed to Kemocite being in its broken state. I mention the Kemocite issue because folks need to understand that just because a fix doesn't come in the time they think it should come, does not mean a fix will never come.
People also need to understand that Cryptic is not a studio like Blizzard and does not have the manpower or cash reserves that a company like Blizzard does. They are a smaller company with a much smaller team and will not always catch as much before hand as Blizzard would. As they have said before, Cryptic also works in cycles like alot of companies do. Sometimes issues are not caught until the tip end of a current cycle, and they aren't able to fix it until the next cycle rolls over. No one likes when that happens but it is what it is. It's not the fault of the players when something gets released in a bugged state. However it's absolutely the fault of the player if they choose not to keep up with news and official statements, then get caught unprepared for said fix.
You don't like hearing those things, and I don't like having to say them, but it is what it is.
We should stay focussed on the pure 'bait & switch' elements here, and not start a strawman about whether broken stuff should stay broken -- as namely literally no one is arguing the latter.
The console promised an insane amount of extra crits. Then the part that was broken didn't just get fixed, but the proc materially changed into a lame bit of extra dmg. That is not fixing stuff: that is simply 'bait & switch' at its finest.
Also, not buying into the whole 'But we tweeted about it' spiel. They have an official forum. Twitter ain't it.
There is no bait and switch here save in the minds of a few people. I don't know why they changed it from crit chance on hold to a hefty cat2 bonus, that's one you would have to ask them. Regardless the console had issues and was changed because of issues they noticed. Perhaps they couldn't fix the console without changing it from crit chance to something else, perhaps they changed it because they were afraid it would become another must have like Plasmonic Leech and Plasma Exploders were considered for a time. All one would need to do is drop a hold on a boss ship or something a boom, insta 20% crit chance which is a HUGE boost that people would be foolish to pass up given the chance. The last thing this game needs is another Plasmonic Leech, Plasma Exploder, or Kemocite type situation. Until they come out and say one way or another why it was changed from crit chance to a flat cat2 bonus, it's nothing but speculation as to why it changed on either side. You not liking a change doesn't automatically make it bait and switch. Not to mention you know full well they can change stuff at any time, so why are you dropping cash for something you know good and well could change at any time?
When issuing statements, companies are going to post where they know they can reach the most people, which is generally something like facebook or twitter. Having official forum doesn't mean they're always obligated to post in said official forum at all times.
Also please explain this to me. Folks admit that only a small percentage of the playerbase actually comes here to the forums for anything. When Cryptic posts something strictly to the forums, people complain they don't post where the most people are. As such Cryptic posts more on facebook and twitter. Then people complain they don't use the forums enough, even though they admit that most of playerbase doesn't come here. So what exactly do you people want them to do short of writing you a personalized letter with a quill pen and having it delivered by a guy on horseback? All Cryptic can do is post stuff where people can see it, it's up to the playerbase to actually read what's put out there.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Once again, maybe it wouldn't be if they tested this stuff...but they don't because they're lazy. They're quick to deploy without testing things and when they're broke the players suffer for dev laze and incompetence
This isn't the first time it's happened and you can bet your bottom dollar this definitely wont be the last time
You do realize how small their staff is right? At one point on a stream Rose had even said they only had 5 people at a low point for QA. Even the most well staffed QA department isn't going to catch everything, and expecting them to do so is an unrealistic and unreasonable standard. Simply because they missed something that annoys you doesn't automatically make one lazy, it's a bug existing and you being offended. The QA department is a small group of people with limited potential variety in their builds. The playerbase is millions of people with potentially millions of brains building stuff, that is going to think of something the devs didn't from time to time.
You will NEVER have a 100% bug free program in today's day and age, it's impossible. All you can do is try to minimize them. Again no one here likes bugs when they crop up. I don't like them because they effect a game I enjoy and it means paperwork of firing a report up the chain for me. Devs don't like it because it means extra work for them on top of everything else. Some people in here have an extremely unreasonable standard when it comes to game development.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
When issuing statements, companies are going to post where they know they can reach the most people, which is generally something like facebook or twitter. Having official forum doesn't mean they're always obligated to post in said official forum at all times.
Also please explain this to me. Folks admit that only a small percentage of the playerbase actually comes here to the forums for anything. When Cryptic posts something strictly to the forums, people complain they don't post where the most people are. As such Cryptic posts more on facebook and twitter. Then people complain they don't use the forums enough, even though they admit that most of playerbase doesn't come here. So what exactly do you people want them to do short of writing you a personalized letter with a quill pen and having it delivered by a guy on horseback? All Cryptic can do is post stuff where people can see it, it's up to the playerbase to actually read what's put out there.
That would be a valid argument if it were a matter of one or the other. But they can post things here AND on social media, yes? Especially when the original announcement was here and no corrections were made? Just tossing out crazy ideas.
Their best bet would probably be a posting bot that sends the same message out to all of the platforms they use for forum-like functions. Of course it could only do announcement-like posts with that so they would still mostly be on twitter instead of their own forums for non-announcement posts.
For anybody who often encounters problems with cryptics „small staff“ when it comes to broken releases I can highly recommend the STO league discord server.
No need to participate, just read the customizable and well structured different chats that interest you. As for releases like this one the chain of events states as follows:
- 1 Hour after a release of a new item/power/trait that appears to be (too) good (to be true) somebody got it via buy out, upgrades it and posts it’s stats for all to see.
-12 Hours after release first players already parsed it, analysed it’s performance and share their experience.
-24 hours after release veteran players discuss it and give their feedback as to how likely a nerf/adjustment is compared to previous/similar releases.
-1 week to 2 years Cryptic begins to act.
With that kind of info I was able to save my resources not to mention nerves a great deal. It also helps to push the replies of some around here in an entirely irrelevant, rather comedic corner.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
When issuing statements, companies are going to post where they know they can reach the most people, which is generally something like facebook or twitter. Having official forum doesn't mean they're always obligated to post in said official forum at all times.
Also please explain this to me. Folks admit that only a small percentage of the playerbase actually comes here to the forums for anything. When Cryptic posts something strictly to the forums, people complain they don't post where the most people are. As such Cryptic posts more on facebook and twitter. Then people complain they don't use the forums enough, even though they admit that most of playerbase doesn't come here.
There's nothing for folks to 'admit'. For any game (not just STO) it holds true that only ever a small percentage of the player base frequents the forums: the active players that care enough to discuss their game. (Now, a grave mistake would be to adopts the CEO-point of view, and brush them off as 'Not enough to matter.' Primarily, and ironically, as those they the ppl that generally pay your bills. Not that this creates some sort of entitlement situation -- just that dismissing them is not a smart move.) Tl;dr: the small percentage of ppl visiting the forums are indeed the ones who'd like to be informed... on said forums.
So what exactly do you people want them to do short of writing you a personalized letter with a quill pen and having it delivered by a guy on horseback? All Cryptic can do is post stuff where people can see it, it's up to the playerbase to actually read what's put out there.
Granted, horseback has a nice appeal to it. Short of seeing that realized, we have a BUGS forum section here. That would be a good place to start. Not a Dev who allegedly said something to someone on Reddit, or Twitter, or Fakebook. Having a BUGS forum section here creates the entirely reasonable expectation that, indeed, matters relating to BUGS are being discussed here.
Think the upcoming lock box holds some more serious stuff to discuss around here. We surely have some fun time ahead. 😂
The trait of the new discovery, some beam dmg increasing trait and one that grants dmg resistance reduction on first sight.
Perhaps we should organize a betting pool as to how much will be wai or coincidently broken. The drr stuff reads like it would already hurt server performance before it is even released so we could already suggest possible nerf excuses here.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Also please explain this to me. Folks admit that only a small percentage of the playerbase actually comes here to the forums for anything. When Cryptic posts something strictly to the forums, people complain they don't post where the most people are. As such Cryptic posts more on facebook and twitter. Then people complain they don't use the forums enough, even though they admit that most of playerbase doesn't come here.
Perhaps it’s high time we start discussing why so few peeps log into STO forums in the first place then nowadays?
I vividly remember a time where things were ten times as lively around here.
*lets wait and see how many posts it takes until somebody concludes that it’s the player‘s fault.*
Yeah, maybe it's time for.. someone.. to start asking themselves why people stopped coming here in the first place. This message board used to be a busy place.. now, not so much.
But you're right, it will once again be the players fault. How could it be anything else?
to be fair, is it not the job of the CM or devs to make the changes expressed in this discussion? at the least, have the CM pop in and advise they see the issue, the wording, etc, and that changes are forthcoming to reflect correct data, and give say a 3 day window to see the updates?
Perhaps... but going down the rabbit hole of listing every little grievence towards said individuals is derailing the thread, and not constructive at all. This is about the console, not the job.
Apologies if it appears I multi-posted; I was trying to post a statement from a Dev on Reddit who answered some of the issues experienced with the new console.
A bit of an official statement on the console, courtesy of a Dev reply on Reddit:
The chain not working is a bug, and weirdly it doesn't occur on the test servers or on internal builds so figuring it out is proving tricky.
The Crit interaction was supposed to be there, but due to some strange and subtle weirdness with the engine, turned out to be impossible to get to work right (I know, learning that made blood come out my ears too). However, bonus damage works fine, so we swapped to a bonus damage vs held instead of crit sev.
It was not intended to be a nerf, but realistically cat2 isn't as juicy as crit. The monstrous dps on the dot makes justifying amping up the bonus damage hard. There has been only one intentional change to the item since it shipped, and that's the crit to bonus damage swap.
This item has followed a weird journey, and seems to have landed as Son of Isometric Charge. The chain is definitely coming back, it's a matter of when not if.
So there you have it, Tholian Webspinner Array evolved (devolved?) into Isometric Charge 2.0. Now if only they add some passive boosts to Isometric Charge; maybe a CritX buff that scales with the chain (gets higher the lower)?
Tried posting this earlier, but since the forums are being gorked about me having a link to the original Dev post on Reddit, I'll just quote it without linking to it:
The chain not working is a bug, and weirdly it doesn't occur on the test servers or on internal builds so figuring it out is proving tricky.
The Crit interaction was supposed to be there, but due to some strange and subtle weirdness with the engine, turned out to be impossible to get to work right (I know, learning that made blood come out my ears too). However, bonus damage works fine, so we swapped to a bonus damage vs held instead of crit.
It was not intended to be a nerf, but realistically cat2 isn't as juicy as crit. The monstrous dps on the dot makes justifying amping up the bonus damage hard. There has been only one intentional change to the item since it shipped, and that's the crit to bonus damage swap.
This item has followed a weird journey, and seems to have landed as Son of Isometric Charge. The chain is definitely coming back, it's a matter of when not if.
Tried posting this earlier, but since the forums are being gorked about me having a link to the original Dev post on Reddit, I'll just quote it without linking to it:
The chain not working is a bug, and weirdly it doesn't occur on the test servers or on internal builds so figuring it out is proving tricky.
The Crit interaction was supposed to be there, but due to some strange and subtle weirdness with the engine, turned out to be impossible to get to work right (I know, learning that made blood come out my ears too). However, bonus damage works fine, so we swapped to a bonus damage vs held instead of crit.
It was not intended to be a nerf, but realistically cat2 isn't as juicy as crit. The monstrous dps on the dot makes justifying amping up the bonus damage hard. There has been only one intentional change to the item since it shipped, and that's the crit to bonus damage swap.
This item has followed a weird journey, and seems to have landed as Son of Isometric Charge. The chain is definitely coming back, it's a matter of when not if.
If this is accurate then folks have their explanation as to why things were done the way they were. Sucks but it is what it is. At least they're trying to do right by that console
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Tried posting this earlier, but since the forums are being gorked about me having a link to the original Dev post on Reddit, I'll just quote it without linking to it:
The chain not working is a bug, and weirdly it doesn't occur on the test servers or on internal builds so figuring it out is proving tricky.
The Crit interaction was supposed to be there, but due to some strange and subtle weirdness with the engine, turned out to be impossible to get to work right (I know, learning that made blood come out my ears too). However, bonus damage works fine, so we swapped to a bonus damage vs held instead of crit.
It was not intended to be a nerf, but realistically cat2 isn't as juicy as crit. The monstrous dps on the dot makes justifying amping up the bonus damage hard. There has been only one intentional change to the item since it shipped, and that's the crit to bonus damage swap.
This item has followed a weird journey, and seems to have landed as Son of Isometric Charge. The chain is definitely coming back, it's a matter of when not if.
If this is accurate then folks have their explanation as to why things were done the way they were.
Absolutely. I am fine with it now. But it just goes to show communication is key: silence breeds speculation. Just, hand to god, wish they had explained it HERE.
Comments
Maybe if they actually tested things before they threw them in game....or even just cared about balance. But why would they care about such a thing? They benefited from this...players buying out
I'm sure this bait and switch netted them a few dollars
I don't like it when stuff is busted anymore than anyone else does, but folks also need to realize that sometimes things simply go south and don't go as planned. Sometimes things break. As to why it was changed from crit chance to bonus damage, that's one you would have to ask them ultimately. As to why it might change I can think of an easy one off the top of my head, every build would now suddenly have tractor beam on the build just to pop an extra 20% crit chance on a target. They didn't want it becoming the second coming of Plasmonic Leech and the Plasma Exploders. Folks might say they should have thought about that before making it crit chance, but at the end of the day it's been changed. Folks don't have to like the change, and are free to say they don't like it and wish it had stayed crit chance. We can also debate whether it was communicated well or not.
Folks are also under no obligations to drop cash on it. That's 100% on you if you decide to drop cash to buy it out early instead of just earning it for free. Again I get that folks don't like the changes, but folks also need to realize that if something needs to be changed for the overall health of the game, it's going to be changed. It's unreasonable that some folks expect no changes to ever occur to an item unless it's a buff, simply because they dropped cash to get it early in a free to play game.
As I said years ago when folks complained about the Kemocite fix, them fixing a broken item isn't a bait and switch. They said up front the console was broken, just like they said Kemocite was broken. Folks continued to buy the console out early just like people continued to invest into kemocite. If one invests into something they know is broken, they have no business complaining when it eventually gets fixed. Folks not liking the change doesn't constitute a bait and switch, it's Cryptic changing an item and them being offended. There is no grand conspiracy against the players that some people seem to think there is.
Lastly Cryptic like alot of companies works in cycles. If an issue isn't caught until the tip end of the development cycle, there may not be time to fix it until the next cycle rolls over.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
your use of the word „sometimes“ is breathtaking! You should be in game as long as I am. Veterans not only make fun of cryptics regular poo ups for years but also fully calculate that items have a massive chance to be released broken and wait it out accordingly by now. It’s really only about the small group of peeps who get lost to this place who still feel puzzled or upset and naturally wonder if those are just unavoidable mistakes or calculated business practices as they happen so often and require invests. Those poor guys only look for second opinions.
Respect man, I really could not bring my self to deliver yours.
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Then they leave it in game, let people buy it up and then when they have a good sum of money from it.. then they 'fix' it. And everyone is just supposed to know that because they tweet one or two lines? Anyone that acquired the item in that window is supposed to automatically know?
Sure, that sounds fair. They continually release things that are broken.. they do it over and over again for years.. sometimes they take literally YEARS to fix (nerf) an item.. and then when the players don't like it.. it's their fault.
Sure.. whatever.
We should stay focussed on the pure 'bait & switch' elements here, and not start a strawman about whether broken stuff should stay broken -- as namely literally no one is arguing the latter.
The console promised an insane amount of extra crits. Then the part that was broken didn't just get fixed, but the proc materially changed into a lame bit of extra dmg. That is not fixing stuff: that is simply 'bait & switch' at its finest.
Also, not buying into the whole 'But we tweeted about it' spiel. They have an official forum. Twitter ain't it.
No argument from me. I think buying out the events that early is both a risk and a waste. But if someone were to look at the announcement now? Or go into the game and look at the console description toward the end of the event when they don't have enough time to get the 14 days? They would still see that it "dramatically improves Critical Strike Chance against Held enemies". And that is not what they would be buying.
So yes, no argument that broken things need to be changed. No argument that sometimes a broken thing goes live and that does not automatically mean any malicious intent. But when they do need to change something so significantly and then don't do the work to communicate it properly, that is on them.
That is the core of my issue here. Nothing to do with not liking the change. I happen to think the console is still pretty decent and plan to try a build using it for fun.
I think part of it is that they cannot change the "more information" descriptions without a recompile, and they are probably too busy with the YoK end patch to do that for what they probably see as a minor typo.
Once again, maybe it wouldn't be if they tested this stuff...but they don't because they're lazy. They're quick to deploy without testing things and when they're broke the players suffer for dev laze and incompetence
This isn't the first time it's happened and you can bet your bottom dollar this definitely wont be the last time
I know folks don't like this and probably think I'm talking out of my aft shuttle bay when I say this, but it takes time to fix things properly when dealing with games. Most of the time it's not an immediate fix. If folks want it done right it won't be quick, and if they want it done quick it won't be done right. That's generally the case most of the time. Simply because they don't fix something as fast as you would like does NOT mean they're doing nothing about it. The Kemocite issue was known for a good long while before the fix made it to live servers. Cryptic had already made known it was broken and was going to be fixed. Because it took a long time to get the fix out, people made the assumption that because it wasn't fixed in X timeframe it must have been working as intended, even though Cryptic never said it was working correctly. When it was finally fixed folks threw a massive hissy fit because they grew accustomed to Kemocite being in its broken state. I mention the Kemocite issue because folks need to understand that just because a fix doesn't come in the time they think it should come, does not mean a fix will never come.
People also need to understand that Cryptic is not a studio like Blizzard and does not have the manpower or cash reserves that a company like Blizzard does. They are a smaller company with a much smaller team and will not always catch as much before hand as Blizzard would. As they have said before, Cryptic also works in cycles like alot of companies do. Sometimes issues are not caught until the tip end of a current cycle, and they aren't able to fix it until the next cycle rolls over. No one likes when that happens but it is what it is. It's not the fault of the players when something gets released in a bugged state. However it's absolutely the fault of the player if they choose not to keep up with news and official statements, then get caught unprepared for said fix.
You don't like hearing those things, and I don't like having to say them, but it is what it is.
There is no bait and switch here save in the minds of a few people. I don't know why they changed it from crit chance on hold to a hefty cat2 bonus, that's one you would have to ask them. Regardless the console had issues and was changed because of issues they noticed. Perhaps they couldn't fix the console without changing it from crit chance to something else, perhaps they changed it because they were afraid it would become another must have like Plasmonic Leech and Plasma Exploders were considered for a time. All one would need to do is drop a hold on a boss ship or something a boom, insta 20% crit chance which is a HUGE boost that people would be foolish to pass up given the chance. The last thing this game needs is another Plasmonic Leech, Plasma Exploder, or Kemocite type situation. Until they come out and say one way or another why it was changed from crit chance to a flat cat2 bonus, it's nothing but speculation as to why it changed on either side. You not liking a change doesn't automatically make it bait and switch. Not to mention you know full well they can change stuff at any time, so why are you dropping cash for something you know good and well could change at any time?
When issuing statements, companies are going to post where they know they can reach the most people, which is generally something like facebook or twitter. Having official forum doesn't mean they're always obligated to post in said official forum at all times.
Also please explain this to me. Folks admit that only a small percentage of the playerbase actually comes here to the forums for anything. When Cryptic posts something strictly to the forums, people complain they don't post where the most people are. As such Cryptic posts more on facebook and twitter. Then people complain they don't use the forums enough, even though they admit that most of playerbase doesn't come here. So what exactly do you people want them to do short of writing you a personalized letter with a quill pen and having it delivered by a guy on horseback? All Cryptic can do is post stuff where people can see it, it's up to the playerbase to actually read what's put out there.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
You do realize how small their staff is right? At one point on a stream Rose had even said they only had 5 people at a low point for QA. Even the most well staffed QA department isn't going to catch everything, and expecting them to do so is an unrealistic and unreasonable standard. Simply because they missed something that annoys you doesn't automatically make one lazy, it's a bug existing and you being offended. The QA department is a small group of people with limited potential variety in their builds. The playerbase is millions of people with potentially millions of brains building stuff, that is going to think of something the devs didn't from time to time.
You will NEVER have a 100% bug free program in today's day and age, it's impossible. All you can do is try to minimize them. Again no one here likes bugs when they crop up. I don't like them because they effect a game I enjoy and it means paperwork of firing a report up the chain for me. Devs don't like it because it means extra work for them on top of everything else. Some people in here have an extremely unreasonable standard when it comes to game development.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
That would be a valid argument if it were a matter of one or the other. But they can post things here AND on social media, yes? Especially when the original announcement was here and no corrections were made? Just tossing out crazy ideas.
No need to participate, just read the customizable and well structured different chats that interest you. As for releases like this one the chain of events states as follows:
- 1 Hour after a release of a new item/power/trait that appears to be (too) good (to be true) somebody got it via buy out, upgrades it and posts it’s stats for all to see.
-12 Hours after release first players already parsed it, analysed it’s performance and share their experience.
-24 hours after release veteran players discuss it and give their feedback as to how likely a nerf/adjustment is compared to previous/similar releases.
-1 week to 2 years Cryptic begins to act.
With that kind of info I was able to save my resources not to mention nerves a great deal. It also helps to push the replies of some around here in an entirely irrelevant, rather comedic corner.
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There's nothing for folks to 'admit'. For any game (not just STO) it holds true that only ever a small percentage of the player base frequents the forums: the active players that care enough to discuss their game. (Now, a grave mistake would be to adopts the CEO-point of view, and brush them off as 'Not enough to matter.' Primarily, and ironically, as those they the ppl that generally pay your bills. Not that this creates some sort of entitlement situation -- just that dismissing them is not a smart move.) Tl;dr: the small percentage of ppl visiting the forums are indeed the ones who'd like to be informed... on said forums.
Granted, horseback has a nice appeal to it. Short of seeing that realized, we have a BUGS forum section here. That would be a good place to start. Not a Dev who allegedly said something to someone on Reddit, or Twitter, or Fakebook. Having a BUGS forum section here creates the entirely reasonable expectation that, indeed, matters relating to BUGS are being discussed here.
A true pearl of wisdom!
> A true pearl of wisdom!
Think the upcoming lock box holds some more serious stuff to discuss around here. We surely have some fun time ahead. 😂
The trait of the new discovery, some beam dmg increasing trait and one that grants dmg resistance reduction on first sight.
Perhaps we should organize a betting pool as to how much will be wai or coincidently broken. The drr stuff reads like it would already hurt server performance before it is even released so we could already suggest possible nerf excuses here.
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[Citation needed]
I vividly remember a time where things were ten times as lively around here.
*lets wait and see how many posts it takes until somebody concludes that it’s the player‘s fault.*
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Yeah, maybe it's time for.. someone.. to start asking themselves why people stopped coming here in the first place. This message board used to be a busy place.. now, not so much.
But you're right, it will once again be the players fault. How could it be anything else?
Perhaps... but going down the rabbit hole of listing every little grievence towards said individuals is derailing the thread, and not constructive at all. This is about the console, not the job.
A bit of an official statement on the console, courtesy of a Dev reply on Reddit:
So there you have it, Tholian Webspinner Array evolved (devolved?) into Isometric Charge 2.0. Now if only they add some passive boosts to Isometric Charge; maybe a CritX buff that scales with the chain (gets higher the lower)?
If this is accurate then folks have their explanation as to why things were done the way they were. Sucks but it is what it is. At least they're trying to do right by that console
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Absolutely. I am fine with it now. But it just goes to show communication is key: silence breeds speculation. Just, hand to god, wish they had explained it HERE.
I remember when the last CM was here Trendy these forums where a graveyard of banned accounts and it wasn't due to her doing her job properly.