I'm gonna go ahead and step in here and ask you guys to back off a bit.
Canon = whatever the IP Holder says. Fans cannot dictate what is and isn't canon. They can only decide what they like and don't like. Trying to decide that DSC is "obviously" an alternate timeline because reasons holds about as much weight as saying that Ash and May should be dating in Pokemon because reasons. Just because fans like that doesn't make it official. The IP Holders have the absolute final say on what is and isn't. CBS has declared DSC to be Prime Universe, which puts it in with TOS and everything else through to Nemesis. Unless otherwise identified as such, there is no debate. The IP Holder has spoken.
So please don't get into yet another canon debate. We've already got one in Ten Forward.
Since DSC is canon as declared by CBS. I can happily be called at Star Trek heretic and continue to ignore and treat DSC as an alternate timeline as much as possible, including all content in STO that is DSC. A personal choice that I am happy with.
It regards to the visuals of the Constitution class from TOS, ENT, and DS9 looking significantly different from DSC, I think of it the same way as the Kelvin version, an alternate reality. As a heretic, I can think that way.
As long as STO keeps the TOS visualizations,gear, uniforms, K-13, and AOY intact in TOS manner. I am happy. If STO were to reboot these in DSC manner, then I would not be.
I honestly though Discovery did a great service in updating the ancient, limited budget Enterprise that was first shown on Screen. It really didn't fit the time period for the era it was claiming to be in. I mean in the 60's we barely had calculator's, and it was a long time before the Intel 8086.
While I admit I don't like the idea of shows that go back to an earlier point in the Timeline, I never really was fond of Enterprise when it started for that reason at first.
So I can't say I was excited by Discovery's decision to the same, yet I greatly enjoyed Discovery Season 1 & 2. But I've gotten even far more interested now that were finally going forward, even if it's the 32nd Century...
I think show runners did that however mostly cause it freed them from the ties from Voyager with the 29th Century (Temporal) vessels we saw. Still they've never really quite explained how we got from that Point to where we are now, perhaps they may approach that in Season 4?
This literally isn't how canon works, how visual reboots works, how IP works, or how anything works. Its just sheer, unadulterated, nonsense.
The only thing that defines a visual reboot is that its set in the same time frame, and things now look different, full stop. And just because you are unable to let go of your near religious worship of pointless visuals doesn't mean most people are unable to let go of their suspension of disbelief in equating Discovery with TOS as being the same, just visually different.
Trying to move the goalposts again, eh? Point out where in my post I used the word "canon" and your argument might have a leg to stand on.
I was talking about the tenets of good storytelling, and the disparity between what they say off camera and what they show in the show itself is very poor storytelling that erodes suspension of disbelief. It is at least as bad as the awkward b-grade melodramatic/kitschy dialog that often plagues DSC.
I honestly though Discovery did a great service in updating the ancient, limited budget Enterprise that was first shown on Screen. It really didn't fit the time period for the era it was claiming to be in. I mean in the 60's we barely had calculator's, and it was a long time before the Intel 8086.
While I admit I don't like the idea of shows that go back to an earlier point in the Timeline, I never really was fond of Enterprise when it started for that reason at first.
So I can't say I was excited by Discovery's decision to the same, yet I greatly enjoyed Discovery Season 1 & 2. But I've gotten even far more interested now that were finally going forward, even if it's the 32nd Century...
I think show runners did that however mostly cause it freed them from the ties from Voyager with the 29th Century (Temporal) vessels we saw. Still they've never really quite explained how we got from that Point to where we are now, perhaps they may approach that in Season 4?
It was more of a disservice actually, all the DSC people did was hit the "Easy" button over and over. TOS was bleeding edge for its time, doing it a service would have been to make DSC bleeding edge instead of the generic, middle of the pack approach they took and depending on mindless action movie elements to distract people from the fact that it is all off-the-shelf bland otherwise.
Roddenberry, Jefferies, and the rest took a lot of chances and put a lot of thought into the various design elements using the most most modern and controversial styles and ideas as a base to build TOS upon. DSC didn't bother and just moves with the current herd.
The style the ship and a number of other things (like the starbase mat paintings) was designed in was "googie", and unlike what a lot of people here seem to think it was not the "go to" look for Hollywood science fiction at the time (in fact, only TWO shows actually used it much in the '60s, Star Trek in a serious way and The Jetsons in an exaggerated humorous way), the rest mainly used the older and more industrial looking art deco which is the style Star Wars and practically everything since is done in to this day.
The fact that when you strip away the difference in production values the current stuff looks like an older style than TOS to a lot of the fans who actually lived in the 1960s is because it actually IS an older style. In fact, to create the NX from the Akira Drexler mainly just had to change a few of the key queues from the current iteration of art deco back to the 1940s interpretation of it using the P-38 as the template.
Same thing with the uniforms. The miniskirt and go-go boots were strong symbols of freedom for women back then and quite controversial. What did DSC do? Far from bleeding edge modern, they hit the easy button again and went with safe and stodgy 1980's unisex as their starting point. The sad fact is that the fashion trends in 2017 were much closer to TOS than they were to DSC since miniskirts and soft rich velvet were all the rage when DSC was in pre-production.
I could give a lot more style examples but those are the most noticeable and style is not even the end of it, they went with the same approach for plotting.
They start off with Burham's war but come to realize it is not popular with the viewers and are apparently at a loss as to how to fix it so they hit the easy button again and end it by deus ex machina. Then, despite a better showing in second season they stop trying to fix the problems of trying to shoehorn in a The Undiscovered Country themed series between The Cage and TOS on the wrong side of the big 2270s refit revolution, and so they bring out the button again to flush it all into a far future where they figure people will stop comparing it to TOS and the various Berman era series.
And before you get the wrong idea, I do not "hate" DSC. I actually like it about as much as most of the other generic modern sci-fi shows despite it falling far short of its potential. I am just pointing out where it could have been so much more.
It was more of a disservice actually, all the DSC people did was hit the "Easy" button over and over. TOS was bleeding edge for its time...
Don't get me wrong, I very much agree with you it was very bleeding edge for it's time, it was more than a decade before Star Wars then raised the bar again.
I just think Discovery did a service to the Enterprise, as it appeared far more like a vessel of it's time. As was also shown by what they did with the Kelvin Enterprise in the films, of the alternative timeline...
Comments
Canon = whatever the IP Holder says. Fans cannot dictate what is and isn't canon. They can only decide what they like and don't like. Trying to decide that DSC is "obviously" an alternate timeline because reasons holds about as much weight as saying that Ash and May should be dating in Pokemon because reasons. Just because fans like that doesn't make it official. The IP Holders have the absolute final say on what is and isn't. CBS has declared DSC to be Prime Universe, which puts it in with TOS and everything else through to Nemesis. Unless otherwise identified as such, there is no debate. The IP Holder has spoken.
So please don't get into yet another canon debate. We've already got one in Ten Forward.
It regards to the visuals of the Constitution class from TOS, ENT, and DS9 looking significantly different from DSC, I think of it the same way as the Kelvin version, an alternate reality. As a heretic, I can think that way.
As long as STO keeps the TOS visualizations,gear, uniforms, K-13, and AOY intact in TOS manner. I am happy. If STO were to reboot these in DSC manner, then I would not be.
While I admit I don't like the idea of shows that go back to an earlier point in the Timeline, I never really was fond of Enterprise when it started for that reason at first.
So I can't say I was excited by Discovery's decision to the same, yet I greatly enjoyed Discovery Season 1 & 2. But I've gotten even far more interested now that were finally going forward, even if it's the 32nd Century...
I think show runners did that however mostly cause it freed them from the ties from Voyager with the 29th Century (Temporal) vessels we saw. Still they've never really quite explained how we got from that Point to where we are now, perhaps they may approach that in Season 4?
Trying to move the goalposts again, eh? Point out where in my post I used the word "canon" and your argument might have a leg to stand on.
I was talking about the tenets of good storytelling, and the disparity between what they say off camera and what they show in the show itself is very poor storytelling that erodes suspension of disbelief. It is at least as bad as the awkward b-grade melodramatic/kitschy dialog that often plagues DSC.
It was more of a disservice actually, all the DSC people did was hit the "Easy" button over and over. TOS was bleeding edge for its time, doing it a service would have been to make DSC bleeding edge instead of the generic, middle of the pack approach they took and depending on mindless action movie elements to distract people from the fact that it is all off-the-shelf bland otherwise.
Roddenberry, Jefferies, and the rest took a lot of chances and put a lot of thought into the various design elements using the most most modern and controversial styles and ideas as a base to build TOS upon. DSC didn't bother and just moves with the current herd.
The style the ship and a number of other things (like the starbase mat paintings) was designed in was "googie", and unlike what a lot of people here seem to think it was not the "go to" look for Hollywood science fiction at the time (in fact, only TWO shows actually used it much in the '60s, Star Trek in a serious way and The Jetsons in an exaggerated humorous way), the rest mainly used the older and more industrial looking art deco which is the style Star Wars and practically everything since is done in to this day.
The fact that when you strip away the difference in production values the current stuff looks like an older style than TOS to a lot of the fans who actually lived in the 1960s is because it actually IS an older style. In fact, to create the NX from the Akira Drexler mainly just had to change a few of the key queues from the current iteration of art deco back to the 1940s interpretation of it using the P-38 as the template.
Same thing with the uniforms. The miniskirt and go-go boots were strong symbols of freedom for women back then and quite controversial. What did DSC do? Far from bleeding edge modern, they hit the easy button again and went with safe and stodgy 1980's unisex as their starting point. The sad fact is that the fashion trends in 2017 were much closer to TOS than they were to DSC since miniskirts and soft rich velvet were all the rage when DSC was in pre-production.
I could give a lot more style examples but those are the most noticeable and style is not even the end of it, they went with the same approach for plotting.
They start off with Burham's war but come to realize it is not popular with the viewers and are apparently at a loss as to how to fix it so they hit the easy button again and end it by deus ex machina. Then, despite a better showing in second season they stop trying to fix the problems of trying to shoehorn in a The Undiscovered Country themed series between The Cage and TOS on the wrong side of the big 2270s refit revolution, and so they bring out the button again to flush it all into a far future where they figure people will stop comparing it to TOS and the various Berman era series.
And before you get the wrong idea, I do not "hate" DSC. I actually like it about as much as most of the other generic modern sci-fi shows despite it falling far short of its potential. I am just pointing out where it could have been so much more.
Don't get me wrong, I very much agree with you it was very bleeding edge for it's time, it was more than a decade before Star Wars then raised the bar again.
I just think Discovery did a service to the Enterprise, as it appeared far more like a vessel of it's time. As was also shown by what they did with the Kelvin Enterprise in the films, of the alternative timeline...