And creates more problems than it solves as has been discussed ad nauseam on these forums.
No, it really doesn't. In addition to STO I also play WoW, which has ALWAYS had a kick feature, and I almost never see it get abused, infact the last time I can remember witnessing attempted kick abuse was five or so years ago during Warlords of Draenor, and the vote failed because the rest of us saw what was going on and voted no. That's in WOW, a game with a much more toxic player base than STO has. Sure, there's POTENTIAL for abuse, but the vast majority of people aren't going to do that.
I really don't understand the irrational fear some people have over a basic vote-kick option.
I've seen it abused in WoW A LOT.
Maybe we have different definitions of "abuse", idk. For the instance I mentioned happening back in WoD I was doing some low level dungeons while leveling a new character, and the tank tried to kick one of the DPS because they didn't have heirlooms. Someone called them out for the petty kick reason and we voted no.
What I do NOT consider abuse are things like extreme performance issues (healer can't keep people alive, tank can't hold aggro, DPS constantly face pulls extra stuff, someone constantly "standing in the bad", etc), none of which would be an issue in STO because of how different the game is. I also don't have a problem with kicking people who have an attitude problem, but I haven't seen people chat during a STO Queue in many years.
What I DO see far more frequently than kick abuse is trolls. I run normal/heroic with a team so I don't do LFR (queueable raids) much, but every time I do there are always several trolls intentionally causing wipes (usually these are elitest players that can't stand the fact that LFR even exists at all), without the kick feature those would often be impossible to complete at all. Thankfully this kind of thing doesn't happen in STO, and AFKers are admittedly rare as well so I wouldn't say STO NEEDS a kick feature, but the claims people make of potential abuse are WAY overblown.
> @valoreah said: > And creates more problems than it solves as has been discussed ad nauseam on these forums. No thank you.
What problems does it create, exactly? You right click a person's name, flag as AFK, and then the group votes. Three out of five votes equals a kick. The person who is removed has to go wait in the 2-ish minute queue for the next TFO. Boo hoo.
The kind of "problems" you are talking about are manufactured hysteria.
Timer's in those TFO's are a big part of the problem. So many timers and no reason for me to actually upgrade my ship. If I can do stuff faster because I have a good build I do want to see that progress otherwise why have a good build to begin with. Problem is Cryptic can't do TFO's anymore or Missions without timer. They aren't creative enough and they want the game held so easy a 3 year old can do it and get rewarded. So if people feel underwhelmed and unchallenged but still need to farm their dillicium they won't put the effort in. You can get a box and extra marks for every random TFO you do and most of the time you can't fail.
C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
> @valoreah said: > You cannot be that naive. Vote kicking can be initiated for any reason. Where to begin?* Initiating a vote kick because someone is "flying the wrong ship" > * Initiating a vote kick because someone is not "playing right" > * Initiating a vote kick because someone does not like the costume someone else has > * Initiating a vote kick because they feel like it > * Initiating a vote kick because someone is using Phasers instead of Disruptors > * Initiating a vote kick because someone playing a Tellarite > * Initiating a vote kick because someone went right instead of left in ISA > > > The list of how people can abuse this to troll others is endless. Again, are you ok with people kicking you for any of those reasons? > > Here is an example from this very thread-
Again, this is manufactured hysteria. It almost impossible to get a kick to go through in a game like FFXIV - most people aren't vindictive, aren't looking to punish, or simply aren't paying attention. I'd watch it calling someone naive when you're apparently so closeted and inexperienced that you haven't the slightest idea of how difficult it is to herd cats.
You already saw in this thread people saying they have no issue kicking someone who "has an attitude problem."
Are you saying toxic behavior isn't a valid reason to kick someone!? The "attitude problem" I was referring to are the people who send all caps messages filled with profanity due to things like someone's DPS being low, people DEMANDING that others give them their loot (WoW loot can sometimes be traded to group members), people cussing out a healer after getting killed by avoidable damage, and the extra toxic people who apparently think it's ok to tell a group member to kill themselves over their performance. No, I do not have any problem with kicking these kinds of people.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,673Community Moderator
I play FF14 alongside STO, and have dabbled in TOR and ESO. Granted I haven't played ESO in a while due to hard drive space and TOR kinda sucks without a sub.
Unfortunately the "manufactured hysteria" isn't so manufactured. Don't forget we used to have a whole fleet who specialized in Trolling running around. One of the reasons why Cover Shields were changed was because of Trolls using them to block areas during TFOs and "demanding payment to pass". While we do need SOMETHING to deal with toxic behavior, until we can solve a couple other problems a vote kick as it stands in the current enviornment is just going to be another Troll tool. I have seen in the past where someone will purposefully AFK and berate another player for "not measuring up" to their standards. There are people who WILL declare you to be a bad player just because you may like Tetryon or run a ship that isn't the current meta...
Just because someone doesn't see it happening doesn't mean it never happens.
One of the key problems with a Vote Kick is lack of communication. How can the one who is the target of a Vote Kick defend themselves if no one communicates or calls out BS behavior? Right now it would probably just be like our current Need/Greed system which is somewhat pointless in STO. They see it pop up, they're probably just going to click yes and move on without even knowing what they're voting over.
And then we have the issue of replacing kicked players. 90% of the time, depending on how far in it is... our current queue system doesn't replace missing players. If its early enough it does happen, but halfway through? Generally not.
Any system is open to abuse. No amount of wishful thinking is going to change that fact.
And this is true. As mentioned above, people already abuse TFOs by doing so called "AFK runs" of certain things, doing the bare minimum to be counted as not AFK.
Again I am not againt a method of dealing with Toxic players in a TFO, I just don't feel that slapping a Vote Kick in with the current player enviornment will help, and may just cause more problems than it solves.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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> @valoreah said: > Except it is not manufactured hysteria. Are you honestly claiming this would never happen? You already saw in this thread people saying they have no issue kicking someone who "has an attitude problem." > > I would be careful calling someone closeted and inexperienced. I have been here long enough to understand there are elements among the playerbase here who will thoroughly enjoy abusing any kind of vote kick system. If you are open to get spammed with vote kick requests for arbitrary reasons every TFO or deal with discussions about who should or should not get kicked from a team instead of actually playing, more power to you. > > Any system is open to abuse. No amount of wishful thinking is going to change that fact.
I am not interested in shielding an infinitesimally small minority from the unlikely scenario that a vote kick system may occasionally be abused (because, like I said, heaven forefend anyone have to sit in STO's often-insta-queue again) preferentially over a much larger portion of the community impacted by scummy AFKers. It is far more likely that an individual lazy player will exploit the current system than a majority-rules plurality abuse the proposed one. I've played multiple, multiple MMORPGs with vote-kick systems and, no, Chicken Little, the sky didn't cave in.
something is REALY WRONG with the players these days.. and it is getting worse over time!
i mainly play advanced random TFOs (on ps4), and in 99% of all TFOs these days, there are people behaving very much like a******s..
this needs a fix of any kind.. this cannot stay that way
The nature of pugs is taking the good with the... not so good.
Sometimes I like to focus on some of the exceptional players and fine examples of working together as a team I've experienced in other pugs when having a bad run.
If things don't go as planned I can take pride in the fact that I'm doing my best or I can look upon what's unfolding as a few minutes of comic relief.
In the past I've found I sometimes take things too seriously.
Don't let a bad run of pugs ruin your day. It's not worth it.
As much as folks don't want to hear it, a kick feature solves alot 99% of this mess. When folks are kicked enough for their shenanigans they'll either get the hint and knock it off, or never get to play with anyone anymore. Either one works. Yeah there's the whole "but a kick feature would get abused" thing. As dark as this is going to sound, you're going to face some kind of abuse in an MMO regardless, the question is whether you want to be able to do anything about it or not. Status quo folks are able to abuse the TFO group and 4 other people in a run while they have no restitution. One person is allowed to abuse 4 other people with no consequences. At least with a kick system the other 4 have a means of kicking the abuser. Folks need to realize that automated systems are what we have now and on their own are NOT enough, Never have been, never will be. All it takes is them to figure out the thresholds of the automated systems and then you're right back to square one with the automated systems doing nothing. There's a reason that even Geordi didn't hand everything over to the computer in TNG to escape the Aceton Assimilator trap.
There's a reason every other game on the planet has this feature, because it actually works even as crude as it is. As long as folks aren't serial AFKers or abusers themselves, 99% of the time you will never have to worry about a kick feature being used on you. While GMs can help with severe cases, they have better things to do than playing babysitter every single time a queue group goes south.
and just as assuredly the afkers WILL be replaced by the Lord high almighty few that will kick anyone they deem not worthy, I.E. cannot vape a Voth City ship with one alpha strike.
you know it i know it it WILL happen, just like in EVERY MMO i have ever played. at least in STO all I have to do is "Stop playing my game you loser noob" comments, which in itself has compelled me to not play TFOs except for the event grinds.
and reporting the bad behavior? I have captured SCREEN SHOTS and no one ever said sure send them so we can take a look.
the simple fact is, no one in the cryptic hierarchy, from Devs to GMs gives a tinker's damn about bullying. I say NO to any tools that give the bullies more power
No, it's not his fault at all save for possibly not expecting the worst from people as much as I hate to say that. Being a random TFO does not excuse people from pulling their own weight in a team, nor does it give them an excuse to fudge the run up for everyone else, nor should they have to queue exclusively with fleetmates and others because certain people want to grief in a run.
Completely disagree. You cannot - nor will you ever be able to - change the behavior of others. You can however, take control of your own actions to make your life and your gaming experience more enjoyable. You even said so yourself -
As dark as this is going to sound, you're going to face some kind of abuse in an MMO regardless, the question is whether you want to be able to do anything about it or not.
People can control their own actions to avoid putting themselves in these kinds of situations by teaming with friends and/or like minded players they know. Whether you agree or not, socializing and teaming with pre-made teams IS doing something about it. Instead of trying to impose your will on others, use the existing tools available and form your own teams. I and my friends and fleetmates do this near exclusively and we never have problems with AFKers ever.
Yeah actually you can, just not to the degree any of us may wish we could at times. Parents do it all the time when having to discipline their kids. Society does it with laws against unwanted conduct. Fleets do it in game by booting unwanted members. Does this completely eliminate the bad behavior, no it doesn't, but it severely curbs said behavior. In the gaming world if someone is outcast by 95% of the community, they'll either cut the shenanigans, or have to play another game. I'm glad you have people who can be on at any time you want them to be or need them to be, but not everyone has that option, nor should they always have to rely on that option to clear content. What is a person to do if they want to play the game but their friends and fleetmates are not on? I guess by you're logic they're SoL.
Second, if you're going to quote me, do it in context. What I actually said was this: "As much as folks don't want to hear it, a kick feature solves alot 99% of this mess. When folks are kicked enough for their shenanigans they'll either get the hint and knock it off, or never get to play with anyone anymore. Either one works. Yeah there's the whole "but a kick feature would get abused" thing. As dark as this is going to sound, you're going to face some kind of abuse in an MMO regardless, the question is whether you want to be able to do anything about it or not. Status quo folks are able to abuse the TFO group and 4 other people in a run while they have no restitution. One person is allowed to abuse 4 other people with no consequences. At least with a kick system the other 4 have a means of kicking the abuser. Folks need to realize that automated systems are what we have now and on their own are NOT enough, Never have been, never will be. All it takes is them to figure out the thresholds of the automated systems and then you're right back to square one with the automated systems doing nothing. There's a reason that even Geordi didn't hand everything over to the computer in TNG to escape the Aceton Assimilator trap."
I NEVER said folks shouldn't use tools we have now. What I did however say is that current tools are not enough on their own and more is needed. That's a far cry from what you're trying to portray my statement as.
Correct. It is not about you. But not everyone wants to play the way you do. Some people are not interested in completing optional objectives. Some people may need to go AFK during a run. You have no idea what random people may or may not want to do in a random PUG. Trying to impose your will on others via a kick feature is not going to solve the problem for you.
This right here is where your problem lies. You acknowledge that joining a TFO group means it's no longer about just you, yet seem to think you should have a license to go off and do whatever you want while in said TFO. You accuse me of "wanting to impose your will on others" yet seem to have no problem with someone intentionally failing optionals, robbing people of full rewards, or just blitzing the queue because YOU have decided for the team YOU don't want to do the optionals, all while hiding behind the excuse of "not everyone wants to play the way you do." So it's cool if you want to do your own thing in a TFO because "not everyone wants to play the way you do", even if it prevents the team from getting optional objectives, but how dare the other 4 people in the run call you out on deliberate actions that negatively effect them. How dare they not recognize you don't want to play like them and expect you to be a team player. Seriously dude, that's the definition of hypocrisy. If you're not going to be a team player and are going to deliberately fail optionals for people or prevent them from being completed, stay out of randoms as that's a petak move.
By your own logic if they don't want to worry about others who do want to complete optionals, form your own group.
Socializing, making friends who share your play style or joining a fleet that suits your needs so you have known people to team with who share your play style will solve the problem for you. These tools exist already. No development required. It does, however, take effort to socialize. If you want to make the decision to be an introvert and not engage with your fellow players, that is your choice. However, you need to accept the consequences of your choice.
If you don't like the idea of a kick feature, fine you're entitled to that opinion. However if you're going to say you don't want a kick feature, at least provide viable alternative methods that will actually work to address the issues.
See above. Teaming with friends it a totally viable solution that solves the problem 100% of the time for everyone involved.
I'm only going to ask you this once, so I advise you to take your time before you answer this. Are you suggesting that folks who don't play with their fleet or a friends group at all times are anti-social or somehow less than? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. You're making some dangerously bold assumptions about myself and others you know nothing about. By your own logic, playing with others in a random TFO is engaging with fellow players, or do you not consider those folks in the random TFOs to be actual people? See again above, that's great that folks can team with fleets and friends, but that is not always an option for people. People also should not have to join a fleet just to avoid having to deal with trolls and people trying to be tools in queues.
Socializing, making friends who share your play style or joining a fleet that suits your needs so you have known people to team with who share your play style will solve the problem for you. These tools exist already. No development required. It does, however, take effort to socialize. If you want to make the decision to be an introvert and not engage with your fellow players, that is your choice. However, you need to accept the consequences of your choice.
People can control their own actions to avoid putting themselves in these kinds of situations by teaming with friends and/or like minded players they know. Whether you agree or not, socializing and teaming with pre-made teams IS doing something about it. Instead of trying to impose your will on others, use the existing tools available and form your own teams. I and my friends and fleetmates do this near exclusively and we never have problems with AFKers ever.
You claim that you're not telling folks to just "grin and bear it", yet you do exactly that in the bolded sections I've highlighted. You essentially tell folks to just play with their fleetmates and get over it. So yeah you do tell people to just get over it. By your own logic, whether you like it or not, a kick feature does in fact work, has worked for other games and will work here. If you really want to go there we can play that game.
You cannot be that naive. Vote kicking can be initiated for any reason. Where to begin?
Initiating a vote kick because someone is "flying the wrong ship"
Initiating a vote kick because someone is not "playing right"
Initiating a vote kick because someone does not like the costume someone else has
Initiating a vote kick because they feel like it
Initiating a vote kick because someone is using Phasers instead of Disruptors
Initiating a vote kick because someone playing a Tellarite
Initiating a vote kick because someone went right instead of left in ISA
The list of how people can abuse this to troll others is endless. Again, are you ok with people kicking you for any of those reasons?
This is why safeguards are in place or were put in place in games that have kick features. In WoW if you are constantly calling vote kicks, your ability to call vote kicks become greatly diminished. This diminished kick ability is account wide. If someone rarely calls vote kicks their ability to call kicks is uneffected. Most folks are not willing to risk their ability to call votes to troll in this matter. All in all you're talking maybe 1% of the playerbase doing this. Also by your own logic from previous, if you're running with fleetmates as exclusively as you say, you won't have to worry about vote to kick anyways since I highly doubt your fleetmates would simply boot you. Every system can be abused at some point and in some way. If you're waiting for an abuse proof system, you're going to be waiting until the end of time because that's not going to happen.
You will NEVER be 100% rid of trolls, and I really wish people would get that through their heads. However this gives folks an easy way to deal with trolls in the immediate. Saying the vote kick shouldn't exist because folks "might" abuse it is like saying that no one should be allowed to have voice chat because someone "might" say something offensive. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. That's flawed logic. So as others have asked, when is it appropriate to kick someone? When do the other 4 people in the run get their relief?
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
All in all you're talking maybe 1% of the playerbase doing this.
All in all, you're talking about maybe 1% of the playerbase doing AFK runs. So what's the big deal? And why invest the resources creating a system that adds an equal amount of problems in the process?
I don't think we're playing the same game if you honestly believe that
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
All in all you're talking maybe 1% of the playerbase doing this.
All in all, you're talking about maybe 1% of the playerbase doing AFK runs. So what's the big deal? And why invest the resources creating a system that adds an equal amount of problems in the process?
I don't think we're playing the same game if you honestly believe that
I know this is going to be completely subjective, but just out of curiousity what do you think the ballpark number actually is on the AFKing? Just for the sake of 'estimating' the size of the problem.
Like many have already said there isn't really much that can be done. I suppose a kick feature could be implemented, but then instead of dealing with afk peeps you might be dealing with players kicking you at random just to trollolol.
Not by a system managed vote-kick. Simply put, it detects the offence, and puts up a vote to kick prompt. It's run by the system and only the system, so players can't abuse it. Player initiated vote-kicks should never happen.
That does not sound easy to implement.
I've seen it in a few games. Games like CoD also have an auto-kick that will kick you out of a match when it detects afk/leeching behaviour. The technology is there out there already.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
All in all you're talking maybe 1% of the playerbase doing this.
All in all, you're talking about maybe 1% of the playerbase doing AFK runs. So what's the big deal? And why invest the resources creating a system that adds an equal amount of problems in the process?
I don't think we're playing the same game if you honestly believe that
I know this is going to be completely subjective, but just out of curiousity what do you think the ballpark number actually is on the AFKing? Just for the sake of 'estimating' the size of the problem.
Depending on the platform, it varies. AFK'ing isn't as bad on Console once they start getting a ban, simply because they don't realise the 'exploits' that PC players know to get round the system. On Xbox, depends on the TFO. Synth-wave was 1 in 5 runs I'd get an AFK, PC I was seeing about 1 in 3, and yes, I count sitting above the starbase with auto-fire/macro as AFK. When it's something like Breach, it's 1 in 2 on PC (on one occasion 3 players sat AFK, so my team-mate and I went dead slow and took our sweet time), and about 1 in 3 on Xbox.
PC players KNOW they can get away with it.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
Yeah actually you can, just not to the degree any of us may wish we could at times.
This is the key part here in what you are looking for. You want more control over what a random group of people you do not know to enforce your will and play style on them rather than adjusting your behavior to totally avoid the situation. As always, you want to pawn off responsibility on someone else rather than taking control for yourself using what is available right now.
That's not what anyone here wants, the only thing people advocating for a vote-kick feature want is the ability to remove AFKers, Trolls, and toxic individuals. Anyone who kicks people because they aren't playing the meta is abusing the system.
Like I said though most of these issues are rather rare in STO, at least on PC anyway, so I don't know that it's actually NEEDED, I just don't see why people would have a problem with it being added unless they themselves like to AFK or troll in queues.
That's not what anyone here wants, the only thing people advocating for a vote-kick feature want is the ability to remove AFKers, Trolls, and toxic individuals. Anyone who kicks people because they aren't playing the meta is abusing the system.
While I am sure you are approaching this in good faith with the best of intentions, you are only proving my point by adding "trolls" and "toxic individuals" as legitimate reasons for initiating a vote kick. That is absolutely trying to enforce your view and your will on others. It does not work. Again, what you and I consider to be trolling or toxic is going to differ from how others define them.
So if a kick feature was available you don't think people either actively trying to ruin your experience or telling me to kill myself over a mistake would be valid reasons to use the feature? Sure, I can see where there may be some variance in what people consider trolling, but for the toxicity piece at least I think we all know what kind of things are an issue and which things are not.
As an example of what I consider trolling, in WoWs last expansion I did one LFR run of the final raid boss N'zoth, and one of the tanks jumped off the side of the arena as soon as the boss was pulled. Being a Death Knight myself I sent this tank a battle rez (on that fight if you jump off your corpse gets teleported back onto the platform), and then watched him immediately run to the side and jump off again. His intentional actions made it absolutely impossible to kill the boss on that pull, and that is the kind of thing I think merits a kick for trolling.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,673Community Moderator
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,673Community Moderator
Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment here Val, as I don't dispute your findings, is this on PC or the PS4 as mentioned by the OP?
On PC it is rare to have AFKers, except during certain events because "Why bother? I'm gonna get rewarded anyways so let the team carry me".
At least in Mirror Invasion an AFKer can still get attacked. Its the one time I wish we can direct NPCs towards them, or somehow inflate their threat generation enough to attract attention. Bit of a trollish move, but dang it... we're fighting our tails off and every little bit helps!
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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Comments
Maybe we have different definitions of "abuse", idk. For the instance I mentioned happening back in WoD I was doing some low level dungeons while leveling a new character, and the tank tried to kick one of the DPS because they didn't have heirlooms. Someone called them out for the petty kick reason and we voted no.
What I do NOT consider abuse are things like extreme performance issues (healer can't keep people alive, tank can't hold aggro, DPS constantly face pulls extra stuff, someone constantly "standing in the bad", etc), none of which would be an issue in STO because of how different the game is. I also don't have a problem with kicking people who have an attitude problem, but I haven't seen people chat during a STO Queue in many years.
What I DO see far more frequently than kick abuse is trolls. I run normal/heroic with a team so I don't do LFR (queueable raids) much, but every time I do there are always several trolls intentionally causing wipes (usually these are elitest players that can't stand the fact that LFR even exists at all), without the kick feature those would often be impossible to complete at all. Thankfully this kind of thing doesn't happen in STO, and AFKers are admittedly rare as well so I wouldn't say STO NEEDS a kick feature, but the claims people make of potential abuse are WAY overblown.
> And creates more problems than it solves as has been discussed ad nauseam on these forums. No thank you.
What problems does it create, exactly? You right click a person's name, flag as AFK, and then the group votes. Three out of five votes equals a kick. The person who is removed has to go wait in the 2-ish minute queue for the next TFO. Boo hoo.
The kind of "problems" you are talking about are manufactured hysteria.
> You cannot be that naive. Vote kicking can be initiated for any reason. Where to begin?* Initiating a vote kick because someone is "flying the wrong ship"
> * Initiating a vote kick because someone is not "playing right"
> * Initiating a vote kick because someone does not like the costume someone else has
> * Initiating a vote kick because they feel like it
> * Initiating a vote kick because someone is using Phasers instead of Disruptors
> * Initiating a vote kick because someone playing a Tellarite
> * Initiating a vote kick because someone went right instead of left in ISA
>
>
> The list of how people can abuse this to troll others is endless. Again, are you ok with people kicking you for any of those reasons?
>
> Here is an example from this very thread-
Again, this is manufactured hysteria. It almost impossible to get a kick to go through in a game like FFXIV - most people aren't vindictive, aren't looking to punish, or simply aren't paying attention. I'd watch it calling someone naive when you're apparently so closeted and inexperienced that you haven't the slightest idea of how difficult it is to herd cats.
Are you saying toxic behavior isn't a valid reason to kick someone!? The "attitude problem" I was referring to are the people who send all caps messages filled with profanity due to things like someone's DPS being low, people DEMANDING that others give them their loot (WoW loot can sometimes be traded to group members), people cussing out a healer after getting killed by avoidable damage, and the extra toxic people who apparently think it's ok to tell a group member to kill themselves over their performance. No, I do not have any problem with kicking these kinds of people.
Unfortunately the "manufactured hysteria" isn't so manufactured. Don't forget we used to have a whole fleet who specialized in Trolling running around. One of the reasons why Cover Shields were changed was because of Trolls using them to block areas during TFOs and "demanding payment to pass". While we do need SOMETHING to deal with toxic behavior, until we can solve a couple other problems a vote kick as it stands in the current enviornment is just going to be another Troll tool. I have seen in the past where someone will purposefully AFK and berate another player for "not measuring up" to their standards. There are people who WILL declare you to be a bad player just because you may like Tetryon or run a ship that isn't the current meta...
Just because someone doesn't see it happening doesn't mean it never happens.
One of the key problems with a Vote Kick is lack of communication. How can the one who is the target of a Vote Kick defend themselves if no one communicates or calls out BS behavior? Right now it would probably just be like our current Need/Greed system which is somewhat pointless in STO. They see it pop up, they're probably just going to click yes and move on without even knowing what they're voting over.
And then we have the issue of replacing kicked players. 90% of the time, depending on how far in it is... our current queue system doesn't replace missing players. If its early enough it does happen, but halfway through? Generally not.
And this is true. As mentioned above, people already abuse TFOs by doing so called "AFK runs" of certain things, doing the bare minimum to be counted as not AFK.
Again I am not againt a method of dealing with Toxic players in a TFO, I just don't feel that slapping a Vote Kick in with the current player enviornment will help, and may just cause more problems than it solves.
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> Except it is not manufactured hysteria. Are you honestly claiming this would never happen? You already saw in this thread people saying they have no issue kicking someone who "has an attitude problem."
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> I would be careful calling someone closeted and inexperienced. I have been here long enough to understand there are elements among the playerbase here who will thoroughly enjoy abusing any kind of vote kick system. If you are open to get spammed with vote kick requests for arbitrary reasons every TFO or deal with discussions about who should or should not get kicked from a team instead of actually playing, more power to you.
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> Any system is open to abuse. No amount of wishful thinking is going to change that fact.
I am not interested in shielding an infinitesimally small minority from the unlikely scenario that a vote kick system may occasionally be abused (because, like I said, heaven forefend anyone have to sit in STO's often-insta-queue again) preferentially over a much larger portion of the community impacted by scummy AFKers. It is far more likely that an individual lazy player will exploit the current system than a majority-rules plurality abuse the proposed one. I've played multiple, multiple MMORPGs with vote-kick systems and, no, Chicken Little, the sky didn't cave in.
Sometimes I like to focus on some of the exceptional players and fine examples of working together as a team I've experienced in other pugs when having a bad run.
If things don't go as planned I can take pride in the fact that I'm doing my best or I can look upon what's unfolding as a few minutes of comic relief.
In the past I've found I sometimes take things too seriously.
Don't let a bad run of pugs ruin your day. It's not worth it.
and just as assuredly the afkers WILL be replaced by the Lord high almighty few that will kick anyone they deem not worthy, I.E. cannot vape a Voth City ship with one alpha strike.
you know it i know it it WILL happen, just like in EVERY MMO i have ever played. at least in STO all I have to do is "Stop playing my game you loser noob" comments, which in itself has compelled me to not play TFOs except for the event grinds.
and reporting the bad behavior? I have captured SCREEN SHOTS and no one ever said sure send them so we can take a look.
the simple fact is, no one in the cryptic hierarchy, from Devs to GMs gives a tinker's damn about bullying. I say NO to any tools that give the bullies more power
Yeah actually you can, just not to the degree any of us may wish we could at times. Parents do it all the time when having to discipline their kids. Society does it with laws against unwanted conduct. Fleets do it in game by booting unwanted members. Does this completely eliminate the bad behavior, no it doesn't, but it severely curbs said behavior. In the gaming world if someone is outcast by 95% of the community, they'll either cut the shenanigans, or have to play another game. I'm glad you have people who can be on at any time you want them to be or need them to be, but not everyone has that option, nor should they always have to rely on that option to clear content. What is a person to do if they want to play the game but their friends and fleetmates are not on? I guess by you're logic they're SoL.
Second, if you're going to quote me, do it in context. What I actually said was this: "As much as folks don't want to hear it, a kick feature solves alot 99% of this mess. When folks are kicked enough for their shenanigans they'll either get the hint and knock it off, or never get to play with anyone anymore. Either one works. Yeah there's the whole "but a kick feature would get abused" thing. As dark as this is going to sound, you're going to face some kind of abuse in an MMO regardless, the question is whether you want to be able to do anything about it or not. Status quo folks are able to abuse the TFO group and 4 other people in a run while they have no restitution. One person is allowed to abuse 4 other people with no consequences. At least with a kick system the other 4 have a means of kicking the abuser. Folks need to realize that automated systems are what we have now and on their own are NOT enough, Never have been, never will be. All it takes is them to figure out the thresholds of the automated systems and then you're right back to square one with the automated systems doing nothing. There's a reason that even Geordi didn't hand everything over to the computer in TNG to escape the Aceton Assimilator trap."
I NEVER said folks shouldn't use tools we have now. What I did however say is that current tools are not enough on their own and more is needed. That's a far cry from what you're trying to portray my statement as.
This right here is where your problem lies. You acknowledge that joining a TFO group means it's no longer about just you, yet seem to think you should have a license to go off and do whatever you want while in said TFO. You accuse me of "wanting to impose your will on others" yet seem to have no problem with someone intentionally failing optionals, robbing people of full rewards, or just blitzing the queue because YOU have decided for the team YOU don't want to do the optionals, all while hiding behind the excuse of "not everyone wants to play the way you do." So it's cool if you want to do your own thing in a TFO because "not everyone wants to play the way you do", even if it prevents the team from getting optional objectives, but how dare the other 4 people in the run call you out on deliberate actions that negatively effect them. How dare they not recognize you don't want to play like them and expect you to be a team player. Seriously dude, that's the definition of hypocrisy. If you're not going to be a team player and are going to deliberately fail optionals for people or prevent them from being completed, stay out of randoms as that's a petak move.
By your own logic if they don't want to worry about others who do want to complete optionals, form your own group.
I'm only going to ask you this once, so I advise you to take your time before you answer this. Are you suggesting that folks who don't play with their fleet or a friends group at all times are anti-social or somehow less than? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. You're making some dangerously bold assumptions about myself and others you know nothing about. By your own logic, playing with others in a random TFO is engaging with fellow players, or do you not consider those folks in the random TFOs to be actual people? See again above, that's great that folks can team with fleets and friends, but that is not always an option for people. People also should not have to join a fleet just to avoid having to deal with trolls and people trying to be tools in queues.
You claim that you're not telling folks to just "grin and bear it", yet you do exactly that in the bolded sections I've highlighted. You essentially tell folks to just play with their fleetmates and get over it. So yeah you do tell people to just get over it. By your own logic, whether you like it or not, a kick feature does in fact work, has worked for other games and will work here. If you really want to go there we can play that game.
This is why safeguards are in place or were put in place in games that have kick features. In WoW if you are constantly calling vote kicks, your ability to call vote kicks become greatly diminished. This diminished kick ability is account wide. If someone rarely calls vote kicks their ability to call kicks is uneffected. Most folks are not willing to risk their ability to call votes to troll in this matter. All in all you're talking maybe 1% of the playerbase doing this. Also by your own logic from previous, if you're running with fleetmates as exclusively as you say, you won't have to worry about vote to kick anyways since I highly doubt your fleetmates would simply boot you. Every system can be abused at some point and in some way. If you're waiting for an abuse proof system, you're going to be waiting until the end of time because that's not going to happen.
You will NEVER be 100% rid of trolls, and I really wish people would get that through their heads. However this gives folks an easy way to deal with trolls in the immediate. Saying the vote kick shouldn't exist because folks "might" abuse it is like saying that no one should be allowed to have voice chat because someone "might" say something offensive. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. That's flawed logic. So as others have asked, when is it appropriate to kick someone? When do the other 4 people in the run get their relief?
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
"Let not a console, nor a console kiddie be."
I don't think we're playing the same game if you honestly believe that
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
I know this is going to be completely subjective, but just out of curiousity what do you think the ballpark number actually is on the AFKing? Just for the sake of 'estimating' the size of the problem.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I've seen it in a few games. Games like CoD also have an auto-kick that will kick you out of a match when it detects afk/leeching behaviour. The technology is there out there already.
Depending on the platform, it varies. AFK'ing isn't as bad on Console once they start getting a ban, simply because they don't realise the 'exploits' that PC players know to get round the system. On Xbox, depends on the TFO. Synth-wave was 1 in 5 runs I'd get an AFK, PC I was seeing about 1 in 3, and yes, I count sitting above the starbase with auto-fire/macro as AFK. When it's something like Breach, it's 1 in 2 on PC (on one occasion 3 players sat AFK, so my team-mate and I went dead slow and took our sweet time), and about 1 in 3 on Xbox.
PC players KNOW they can get away with it.
That's not what anyone here wants, the only thing people advocating for a vote-kick feature want is the ability to remove AFKers, Trolls, and toxic individuals. Anyone who kicks people because they aren't playing the meta is abusing the system.
Like I said though most of these issues are rather rare in STO, at least on PC anyway, so I don't know that it's actually NEEDED, I just don't see why people would have a problem with it being added unless they themselves like to AFK or troll in queues.
So if a kick feature was available you don't think people either actively trying to ruin your experience or telling me to kill myself over a mistake would be valid reasons to use the feature? Sure, I can see where there may be some variance in what people consider trolling, but for the toxicity piece at least I think we all know what kind of things are an issue and which things are not.
As an example of what I consider trolling, in WoWs last expansion I did one LFR run of the final raid boss N'zoth, and one of the tanks jumped off the side of the arena as soon as the boss was pulled. Being a Death Knight myself I sent this tank a battle rez (on that fight if you jump off your corpse gets teleported back onto the platform), and then watched him immediately run to the side and jump off again. His intentional actions made it absolutely impossible to kill the boss on that pull, and that is the kind of thing I think merits a kick for trolling.
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On PC it is rare to have AFKers, except during certain events because "Why bother? I'm gonna get rewarded anyways so let the team carry me".
At least in Mirror Invasion an AFKer can still get attacked. Its the one time I wish we can direct NPCs towards them, or somehow inflate their threat generation enough to attract attention. Bit of a trollish move, but dang it... we're fighting our tails off and every little bit helps!
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colored text = mod mode