Kahless III was a throwaway line at the end of Home - J'mpok mentioned the high council was considering making another clone of him
I'm guessing that went nowhere then, or maybe they're saving it for another time. Throwaway lines like that doesn't have to mean they're seriously planning anything at the time the line was written, at most it could be Future Proofing in-case they want to bring that character back.
Well, there is the option that J'mpok does/did have him cloned, without the same soul/teachings that the original and II had. Then uses him like say...a "perfect" Klingon that is more to the style of his thinking instead of the general collective of the Klingon people, and using them to state that everyone else is wrong.
This has the implications that it could also expand into destabilizing the religion of the Klingon people, that Grethor would be where Kahless is instead of Stovokor, or that they are the same place, so no point in being "honorable" and then everyone falls to J'mpok's rule because no reason to follow the old thinking since it was "wrong" since Kahless is just like J'mpok's corrupt way.
BUT I'm not sure that is where Cryptic is going with this.
J'ula is also not a sympathetic character. I don't really want to play as her, because she isn't redeeming herself or realizing the error of her ways, she's just continuing on doing what she's always wanted to do. J'mpok is no saint either, obviously, but it isn't about who is right, it is simply like sitting through a murder trial where the murderer is trying to get you to believe that murdering all those people was important for the greater good, and that greater good may well exist, but the methods are clearly just wrong. The whole time I'm playing J'ula I'm remembering the past encounters with her while the mission is sort of building her up as some important chess piece, and that doesn't work for me.
Exactly, instead of her going 'I might have gone a little overboard there' her whole 'redemtion arc' is: You have been wrong all the time, and i can do no wrong. The whole 'redemtion' isn't presented as two sides of a medal, it more like 'I was the hero all along, and you have to accept it'.
It's a shame, this could have been a good mission, the voiceover and acting is really good, the graphics and artwork are good (given the age of the game). A little less enemy waves (they get annoying real quick) and it would have been a pretty decent mission. But noooo they had to force us to play as one of the (in my opinion) most unlikeably characters in all of STO. Playing as someone else than my char is bad enough, playing as her made it sooo much worse.
Sadly for me this is now the new 'worst mission in game'. And only because they seem to think if people express their dislike in J'Ula, the best thing they can do is push even harder to show us how 'great' and 'awesome' she actually is.
Side note 1: Why is J'ula allowed to 'cheat' the timestone thing? Captain Pike HAD to take the first stone he touched, regardless of the dark future it was showing him. J'ula is given a very dark future in the first one, an is like 'Nah, i'll take that other one instead, that one is much cooler anyways'. wtf?! That's very bad writing...
Side note 2: I haven't played the second mission but by the looks of it we now get a 'recycled' Klingon Chancelor? C'mon STO you are better than this, please be a little bit more creative and give us someone interessting instead of just recyceling stuff that was already on TV...thats boring AF
To be fair, you just said it - Pike TOOK the Crystal. I don't think J'ula actually took any Crystal - she just touched it, and as per DSC, touching has a lesser effect than actually breaking off and removing one.
point. and i dont recall seeing her actually take one. as per your statement, and the mish, it seems she took the latter of the two, but i dont recall a visual that she actually did. i dont even recall if any voice overs said she did either.
Tenavik even states that taking the crystal is what seals your fate, merely touching one seems to give a vision of a potential future.
And yea J'Ula only touches Crystals (she intentionally touches one and then while panicking about her vision accidently touches another).
Ok, they didn't say that she took a crystal, good point, but...here is the thing that doesn't really make sense storywise. If touching different crystals leads to a different result, then why the heck did Pike take literarily the FIRST crystal which showed him a very dark future. If TAKING the crystal is what locks this future in place, why didn't he take, well, one that showed him something better? He isn't a moron.
I think what happend is: They didn't quite think this through and just wanted to have a 'shocking' future scene. So they 'allowed' her to touch different stones with different results, completely foregtting that, if that would be an option, Pike most likely would have considered it as well.
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Oh and i played the second mission today, looks like we are from 'J'Ula is the lesser of two evils' right to 'Praise the great J'Ula, for she is the greatest of all'. So yeah, i think shes officially off the hook for everything she did. If i had to guess i would say she will be the right hand of L'rell, and we will be forced to like her, even if we can't stand her (i.e.: Our Charakter will like her, even if we don't).
J'ula is also not a sympathetic character. I don't really want to play as her, because she isn't redeeming herself or realizing the error of her ways, she's just continuing on doing what she's always wanted to do. J'mpok is no saint either, obviously, but it isn't about who is right, it is simply like sitting through a murder trial where the murderer is trying to get you to believe that murdering all those people was important for the greater good, and that greater good may well exist, but the methods are clearly just wrong. The whole time I'm playing J'ula I'm remembering the past encounters with her while the mission is sort of building her up as some important chess piece, and that doesn't work for me.
Exactly, instead of her going 'I might have gone a little overboard there' her whole 'redemtion arc' is: You have been wrong all the time, and i can do no wrong. The whole 'redemtion' isn't presented as two sides of a medal, it more like 'I was the hero all along, and you have to accept it'.
It's a shame, this could have been a good mission, the voiceover and acting is really good, the graphics and artwork are good (given the age of the game). A little less enemy waves (they get annoying real quick) and it would have been a pretty decent mission. But noooo they had to force us to play as one of the (in my opinion) most unlikeably characters in all of STO. Playing as someone else than my char is bad enough, playing as her made it sooo much worse.
Sadly for me this is now the new 'worst mission in game'. And only because they seem to think if people express their dislike in J'Ula, the best thing they can do is push even harder to show us how 'great' and 'awesome' she actually is.
Side note 1: Why is J'ula allowed to 'cheat' the timestone thing? Captain Pike HAD to take the first stone he touched, regardless of the dark future it was showing him. J'ula is given a very dark future in the first one, an is like 'Nah, i'll take that other one instead, that one is much cooler anyways'. wtf?! That's very bad writing...
Side note 2: I haven't played the second mission but by the looks of it we now get a 'recycled' Klingon Chancelor? C'mon STO you are better than this, please be a little bit more creative and give us someone interessting instead of just recyceling stuff that was already on TV...thats boring AF
To be fair, you just said it - Pike TOOK the Crystal. I don't think J'ula actually took any Crystal - she just touched it, and as per DSC, touching has a lesser effect than actually breaking off and removing one.
point. and i dont recall seeing her actually take one. as per your statement, and the mish, it seems she took the latter of the two, but i dont recall a visual that she actually did. i dont even recall if any voice overs said she did either.
Tenavik even states that taking the crystal is what seals your fate, merely touching one seems to give a vision of a potential future.
And yea J'Ula only touches Crystals (she intentionally touches one and then while panicking about her vision accidently touches another).
Ok, they didn't say that she took a crystal, good point, but...here is the thing that doesn't really make sense storywise. If touching different crystals leads to a different result, then why the heck did Pike take literarily the FIRST crystal which showed him a very dark future. If TAKING the crystal is what locks this future in place, why didn't he take, well, one that showed him something better? He isn't a moron.
I think what happend is: They didn't quite think this through and just wanted to have a 'shocking' future scene. So they 'allowed' her to touch different stones with different results, completely foregtting that, if that would be an option, Pike most likely would have considered it as well.
My experience of the episode was that Pike was honestly willing to accept what his fate was from the start, especially since they were also in a hurry, so he was willing to take the first crystal he got access to.
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Oh and i played the second mission today, looks like we are from 'J'Ula is the lesser of two evils' right to 'Praise the great J'Ula, for she is the greatest of all'. So yeah, i think shes officially off the hook for everything she did. If i had to guess i would say she will be the right hand of L'rell, and we will be forced to like her, even if we can't stand her (i.e.: Our Charakter will like her, even if we don't).
My impression of J'Ula being off the hook is that we (as the character) witness her willing to give up her soul and take her place so that L'Rell's soul could be liberated (as in, she was literally willing to die for the Empire) and that could be seen as a redemption, since it wasn't her time to die yet.
I don't like Discovery or Picard, though I haven't given both of them a fair chance yet. Region restrictions do not help.
I've disliked all the new content, except for the current missions. I am enjoying those a lot, and the more I play. The more and more I am starting to like J'Ula.
I had no problems with the enemies though? I died a few times, but usually the hyposprays saved me. But from reading through the topic, it seems like the mission was going to be almost impossible to beat? Huh, weird.
I must be odd out. I enjoyed these two episodes a lot!
Playing someone else or another ship temporarily is a situation I take as a skill check. "Can I do this with a stock build?" J'ula was fun to control, and the fights having some more mechanics was a nice change. Yeah, the Akar fight is tough, having to deal with all of the temporal hazards. At least Kahless himself saw no shame in my Hypo usage.
I did it again on advanced and died a couple times. It made me rethink crouching, aiming, which weapon to use. And in one case, hearing Martok say, "That looked painful" in the most deadpan, it made me burst out laughing.
I loved the writing, the plot development, and the art, especially recreating the monastery from Season 2 so well. And to get help from Gowron of all people! And giving some of his classic lines. The plot isn't any crazier than resurrecting Kahless, or trying to redeem B'ellana's mother. Definitely more believable than Spock's Brain.
My biggest gripe in the 1st episode is the pacing of the KDF allies arriving in the final chapter. Usually the fight is over before anyone shows up. I think they should speed that up. But be careful, as there's still plenty of places where people speak over each other.
And I can't wait to see what the Mother of Klingons will do next!
Call me "El," she/her only. I love my wife and I don't care who knows it!
J'ula is also not a sympathetic character. I don't really want to play as her, because she isn't redeeming herself or realizing the error of her ways, she's just continuing on doing what she's always wanted to do. J'mpok is no saint either, obviously, but it isn't about who is right, it is simply like sitting through a murder trial where the murderer is trying to get you to believe that murdering all those people was important for the greater good, and that greater good may well exist, but the methods are clearly just wrong. The whole time I'm playing J'ula I'm remembering the past encounters with her while the mission is sort of building her up as some important chess piece, and that doesn't work for me.
Exactly, instead of her going 'I might have gone a little overboard there' her whole 'redemtion arc' is: You have been wrong all the time, and i can do no wrong. The whole 'redemtion' isn't presented as two sides of a medal, it more like 'I was the hero all along, and you have to accept it'.
It's a shame, this could have been a good mission, the voiceover and acting is really good, the graphics and artwork are good (given the age of the game). A little less enemy waves (they get annoying real quick) and it would have been a pretty decent mission. But noooo they had to force us to play as one of the (in my opinion) most unlikeably characters in all of STO. Playing as someone else than my char is bad enough, playing as her made it sooo much worse.
Sadly for me this is now the new 'worst mission in game'. And only because they seem to think if people express their dislike in J'Ula, the best thing they can do is push even harder to show us how 'great' and 'awesome' she actually is.
Side note 1: Why is J'ula allowed to 'cheat' the timestone thing? Captain Pike HAD to take the first stone he touched, regardless of the dark future it was showing him. J'ula is given a very dark future in the first one, an is like 'Nah, i'll take that other one instead, that one is much cooler anyways'. wtf?! That's very bad writing...
Side note 2: I haven't played the second mission but by the looks of it we now get a 'recycled' Klingon Chancelor? C'mon STO you are better than this, please be a little bit more creative and give us someone interessting instead of just recyceling stuff that was already on TV...thats boring AF
To be fair, you just said it - Pike TOOK the Crystal. I don't think J'ula actually took any Crystal - she just touched it, and as per DSC, touching has a lesser effect than actually breaking off and removing one.
point. and i dont recall seeing her actually take one. as per your statement, and the mish, it seems she took the latter of the two, but i dont recall a visual that she actually did. i dont even recall if any voice overs said she did either.
Tenavik even states that taking the crystal is what seals your fate, merely touching one seems to give a vision of a potential future.
And yea J'Ula only touches Crystals (she intentionally touches one and then while panicking about her vision accidently touches another).
Ok, they didn't say that she took a crystal, good point, but...here is the thing that doesn't really make sense storywise. If touching different crystals leads to a different result, then why the heck did Pike take literarily the FIRST crystal which showed him a very dark future. If TAKING the crystal is what locks this future in place, why didn't he take, well, one that showed him something better? He isn't a moron.
I think what happend is: They didn't quite think this through and just wanted to have a 'shocking' future scene. So they 'allowed' her to touch different stones with different results, completely foregtting that, if that would be an option, Pike most likely would have considered it as well.
What Tenavik implied in the mission is that there's 1 Crystal that's meant for J'Ula, the one she touched first and taking any crystal would lock her into that fate, so essentially there was never a choice.
Even so these things are complicated to the Nth degree and it's possible it's wouldn't have mattered which Crystal Pike took as it would have always been the one he was meant to take.
as I said in another thread any story element with "temporal" in their name will cause you a major Migraine if you try think about them too hard.
Kahless III was a throwaway line at the end of Home - J'mpok mentioned the high council was considering making another clone of him
I'm guessing that went nowhere then, or maybe they're saving it for another time. Throwaway lines like that doesn't have to mean they're seriously planning anything at the time the line was written, at most it could be Future Proofing in-case they want to bring that character back.
Since it went nowhere I guess I'll become the New Kahless then, We got new Klingon Hair Styles so it's possible to recreate him from scratch.
Comments
Now I have to temporary play the original rifter on the Klignon civil war, from a very different timeline altogether.
Ugh...tolerated it will be, at least it is not MB.
"Fek'lhr... I have come to Bargain!"
You haven't lived until you watched Doctor Strange in original Klingon.
P.S. I'm not sure if my Grammar is correct and it's bugging the F out of me and yes I'm a grammar TRIBBLE.
Well, there is the option that J'mpok does/did have him cloned, without the same soul/teachings that the original and II had. Then uses him like say...a "perfect" Klingon that is more to the style of his thinking instead of the general collective of the Klingon people, and using them to state that everyone else is wrong.
This has the implications that it could also expand into destabilizing the religion of the Klingon people, that Grethor would be where Kahless is instead of Stovokor, or that they are the same place, so no point in being "honorable" and then everyone falls to J'mpok's rule because no reason to follow the old thinking since it was "wrong" since Kahless is just like J'mpok's corrupt way.
BUT I'm not sure that is where Cryptic is going with this.
Ok, they didn't say that she took a crystal, good point, but...here is the thing that doesn't really make sense storywise. If touching different crystals leads to a different result, then why the heck did Pike take literarily the FIRST crystal which showed him a very dark future. If TAKING the crystal is what locks this future in place, why didn't he take, well, one that showed him something better? He isn't a moron.
I think what happend is: They didn't quite think this through and just wanted to have a 'shocking' future scene. So they 'allowed' her to touch different stones with different results, completely foregtting that, if that would be an option, Pike most likely would have considered it as well.
---
Oh and i played the second mission today, looks like we are from 'J'Ula is the lesser of two evils' right to 'Praise the great J'Ula, for she is the greatest of all'. So yeah, i think shes officially off the hook for everything she did. If i had to guess i would say she will be the right hand of L'rell, and we will be forced to like her, even if we can't stand her (i.e.: Our Charakter will like her, even if we don't).
You haven't met very many Klingons, have you? This is what they do. Dishonor for three generations and all that stuff.
"There's No Way Like Poway!"
Real Join Date: October 2010
My experience of the episode was that Pike was honestly willing to accept what his fate was from the start, especially since they were also in a hurry, so he was willing to take the first crystal he got access to.
My impression of J'Ula being off the hook is that we (as the character) witness her willing to give up her soul and take her place so that L'Rell's soul could be liberated (as in, she was literally willing to die for the Empire) and that could be seen as a redemption, since it wasn't her time to die yet.
I've disliked all the new content, except for the current missions. I am enjoying those a lot, and the more I play. The more and more I am starting to like J'Ula.
I had no problems with the enemies though? I died a few times, but usually the hyposprays saved me. But from reading through the topic, it seems like the mission was going to be almost impossible to beat? Huh, weird.
Playing someone else or another ship temporarily is a situation I take as a skill check. "Can I do this with a stock build?" J'ula was fun to control, and the fights having some more mechanics was a nice change. Yeah, the Akar fight is tough, having to deal with all of the temporal hazards. At least Kahless himself saw no shame in my Hypo usage.
I did it again on advanced and died a couple times. It made me rethink crouching, aiming, which weapon to use. And in one case, hearing Martok say, "That looked painful" in the most deadpan, it made me burst out laughing.
I loved the writing, the plot development, and the art, especially recreating the monastery from Season 2 so well. And to get help from Gowron of all people! And giving some of his classic lines. The plot isn't any crazier than resurrecting Kahless, or trying to redeem B'ellana's mother. Definitely more believable than Spock's Brain.
My biggest gripe in the 1st episode is the pacing of the KDF allies arriving in the final chapter. Usually the fight is over before anyone shows up. I think they should speed that up. But be careful, as there's still plenty of places where people speak over each other.
And I can't wait to see what the Mother of Klingons will do next!
Even so these things are complicated to the Nth degree and it's possible it's wouldn't have mattered which Crystal Pike took as it would have always been the one he was meant to take.
as I said in another thread any story element with "temporal" in their name will cause you a major Migraine if you try think about them too hard.
Since it went nowhere I guess I'll become the New Kahless then, We got new Klingon Hair Styles so it's possible to recreate him from scratch.