Enterprise D vs Enterprise E Discussion

jake477

This thread is not a battle thread. It's just a debate on which one you prefer. Here is my take.

Personally in all aspects IMHO, the Enterprise D is far superior to the Enterprise E and the Galaxy Class aged like fine wine compared to it's contemporary. The Generations Bridge and the Yesterdays Enterprise bridge was kick TRIBBLE.

I have watched each ship in it's best form. The Enterprise D in "Survivors, Best of Both Worlds, Condundrum, and ENT - "These are the Voyages" then did the same for Enterprise E in First Contact and Nemesis. The Enterprise D had the look and felt like Trek as it was meant to be. I cheered when she was on ENT.

The Enterprise D got robbed big time from First Contact. It was one of the Enterprise D's greatest missions to go and fight the Borg. It stood alone against 2 cubes all by itself and it was the first Federation vessel to encounter them. To meet the Queen and save Earth again felt like it was The D's honor. Plus we grew up with her. She was home for 7 years and it felt like a home. The Borg could have ruined her to pave the way for the ENT E which would be a good send off. Plus it would add a little bit of "anger" to the Borg to meet it's match for a 3rd time.

The Enterprise E felt like the Defiant did on DS9. A tool to used and left alone. Sure Picard felt attached to it but that's the Captain. If the crew was on the verge of losing the Enterprise D in a similar fashion the crew would be far more willing to stick it out then they did. IMHO.

The Ent-D always gets me emotional seeing her in other shows or ST content. I never have the same feelings for the ENT-E. Besides the D was unique for it's time. While the E was a future Connie with a few Voyager trimmings.

Worf actually is a good indicator of this debate. The poor guy was mourning the loss of the D so bad he went on a religious retreat and almost quit Starfleet. The Defiant though won him over even more but not once did Worf even say "The E is impressive or how the E was even worthy to the name of Enterprise". In some respects I think Worf secret hated the E.

Plus it says volumes in ST: Picard they used the D over the E for the show.

So what do you guys think. D or E.

To me this debate is even bigger then the Picard vs Kirk one. Because we all know who would win in that fight.....

Sisko.

ryan218

You know, I was initially going to say the Big-E, but having fully read and appreciated your take on things...I'm not so sure...

The 'D' (or 'Bigger-E', as I'm going to refer to it now, because it meets my usual standard of not-funny ) has always been my favourite Enterprise, and I love the Galaxy-Class overall, but I generally feel like the Sovereign-Class is a better design. She's sleek, fast, and powerful - virtually the opposite of the Galaxy-Class (big, graceful, etc.) The Sovereign is like a shark while the Galaxy is more of a whale, IMO. That doesn't make that shot in Sacrifice of Angels where a Galaxy Wing lays the smackdown on a Galor any less satisfying, though.

Personally, I did feel emotional about the Enterprise-E when it rammed the Scimitar in Nemesis, but then I like to get immersed more than is probably healthy. Same with the 'Defiant'. That being said, I felt more emotional when the Bigger-E crashed in Generations. I suppose it is to do with the fact that we spent 7 seasons with her compared to 3 movies with the Big-E.

That being said, nothing compares to the Battle of Azati Prime for the NX-01.

angrytarg

D all the way. It is the flagship of the federation and a representation of it's values, a pleasing design and a powerhouse of a starship. Plus it stayed with us for an entire show and had guest appearances in others.

The Sovereign-class does nothing for me, it's a bit more generic and for all intends and purposes also has a different mission profile. There is not much time to build an emotional connection with the ship in the movies, which are also not great in my opinion. The TNG crew will forever be home on the Ent-D in my mind and I would have preffered the D in all these movies which wouldn't have saved those films, but made it more pleasing​​

jake477

> @angrytarg said:
> D all the way. It is the flagship of the federation and a representation of it's values, a pleasing design and a powerhouse of a starship. Plus it stayed with us for an entire show and had guest appearances in others.
>
> The Sovereign-class does nothing for me, it's a bit more generic and for all intends and purposes also has a different mission profile. There is not much time to build an emotional connection with the ship in the movies, which are also not great in my opinion. The TNG crew will forever be home on the Ent-D in my mind and I would have preffered the D in all these movies which wouldn't have saved those films, but made it more pleasing​​

Plus it says a lot that they used the Enterprise D in Picard over the Enterprise E. When the lastest vessel Picard commanded was the E not the D.

k20vtec

I like the D too, its a very unique and recognizable design for scifi. Not many series can claim to have a flying hotel-kindergarten-fishtank-science-center-embassy with beige walls and wood panels. Its just such a nice place to live in.

rattler2

I kinda like the more streamlined look of the E. It also kinda calls back to the A with the flow of the design. While not being as massive as the D, the E has her own charm which I like.

phoenixc

Of the two, I prefer the D, not because of nostalgia (the Enterprise I grew up with and prefer over the others had, as Scotty put it "no bloody A, B, C, or D") but because it was unique as a small dynamic functioning city in space (even if almost all of the scripts ignored that) rather than just another battlecruiser like the E.

Their roles could not have been more different, the E was a simple and straigtforward warship, presumably with exploration abilities tacked on for peacetime like the original TOS ship.

The Galaxy class on the other hand was primarily an ultra-long range explorer with provisions for multi-generation operations outside of Federation support if need be (in fact parts of the ship were completely unfinished spaces, including an entire deck of the saucer, for that expansion). In wartime the civillians were offloaded at a starbase and they took on 6,000 fully equipped troops for its secondary role as a heavily-armed self-escorting assault troop carrier.

angrytarg

Just because the E was involved in more action scenes doesn't make her a "warship" - according to the official promo it's an Explorer, like the D. Which were the heaviest ships of Starfleet, however the whole "since Borg everything was all out war" fan theory was never really evident in canon. It's just wishful thinking of some. Sovereigns weren't even involved in the Dominion war in-universe (not only due to RL constraints, they could have mentioned them).​​

rattler2

While it is true the Sovereign was part of a design initiative to make more combat ready ships to fight the Borg, she was still considered a multi role starship, like the majority of Federation designs.

And Sovereigns were involved in the war, as it would make NO sense for them not to. Its just we never got to see any involved with DS9. If we include Beta Canon, Enterprise was actually involved in retaking Betazed from the Dominion, and I believe the Sovereign herself also participated in a few battles.

As for why we never saw any during DS9, my theory is that it was still a relatively new class, so there were very few Sovys. Ent-E was only about a year old and JUST out of her shakedown cruise when First Contact happened. And by the time of First Contact, I believe the war with the Dominion was either already underway, but wasn't quite as bad as we'd see later, or was just about to go hot, hence Defiant being present to help repel the Cube.

ryan218

rattler2 wrote: »

While it is true the Sovereign was part of a design initiative to make more combat ready ships to fight the Borg, she was still considered a multi role starship, like the majority of Federation designs.

And Sovereigns were involved in the war, as it would make NO sense for them not to. Its just we never got to see any involved with DS9. If we include Beta Canon, Enterprise was actually involved in retaking Betazed from the Dominion, and I believe the Sovereign herself also participated in a few battles.

As for why we never saw any during DS9, my theory is that it was still a relatively new class, so there were very few Sovys. Ent-E was only about a year old and JUST out of her shakedown cruise when First Contact happened. And by the time of First Contact, I believe the war with the Dominion was either already underway, but wasn't quite as bad as we'd see later, or was just about to go hot, hence Defiant being present to help repel the Cube.

Sisko refers to the recent Borg Attack in 'A Call to Arms' as being part of the reason DS9 wouldn't get Federation reinforcements, so FC must take place shortly before then.

But yes, as you say, there would have been precious-few Sovereign-Class ships to go around. One thing to remember is that it's widely-held that USS Sovereign herself was delayed entering service until after the war due to colossal teething problems (per the story of Bridge Commander), leaving the Enterprise to be the class' true trial-ship. With the Dominion War starting almost immediately after Enterprise finished her shakedown, it's possible Starfleet simply didn't get around to laying down anymore ships before diverting resources to the production of more rapidly-built vessels, similar to how the RN got caught so flat-footed by WWII that the Lion-Class Battleships were never actually built because all available resources were diverted to construction of escorts, destroyers, and aircraft carriers, all of which could be ready quickly enough to be useful.

angrytarg

> @rattler2 said:
> If we include Beta Canon, Enterprise was actually involved in retaking Betazed from the Dominion, and I believe the Sovereign herself also participated in a few battles.

Canon tells us that at least Enterprise wasn't involved in the war and took diplomatic missions at the time. Since this is the last definitive state on that matter everything else is wild speculation.

One thing people also firget is that the number of phaser arrays and torpedo launchers doesn't represent a ship's 'power' - a Galaxy class' saucer array counts as one and covers what the smaller and more angled ships need a few for.

Sovereign had quantum torpedoes alright, I'm sure the other ships could be retrofitted with those eventually. But we don't now this of course.

In raw combat capabilities the Galaxy was a steamroller and the Sovy more versatile protecting the flanks (her shape and armament actually make her a broadsider, unlike many others). Klingon equivalents woukd be Negh'var for Galaxy and Vor'cha for Sovy, probably.

rattler2

Actually, the Galaxy's saucer has 2. Dorsal and ventral. And I doubt that Enterprise was able to stay out of ANY fighting to focus entirely on Diplomacy. A war that widespread, she fought her share of battles. She just wasn't on the front lines like Defiant. Literally NO portion of the quadrant was left untouched by the Dominion War. Even Earth itself was hit by the Breen! Apparently the Romulan Star Empire actually allowed Dominion ships to pass through their territory when they had a NAP before actively joining the Federation as a participant. And based on the maps we know, Romulan territory is on the opposite side of the Federation from Bajor.

angrytarg

rattler2 wrote: »

Actually, the Galaxy's saucer has 2. Dorsal and ventral. And I doubt that Enterprise was able to stay out of ANY fighting to focus entirely on Diplomacy. A war that widespread, she fought her share of battles. She just wasn't on the front lines like Defiant. Literally NO portion of the quadrant was left untouched by the Dominion War. Even Earth itself was hit by the Breen! Apparently the Romulan Star Empire actually allowed Dominion ships to pass through their territory when they had a NAP before actively joining the Federation as a participant. And based on the maps we know, Romulan territory is on the opposite side of the Federation from Bajor.

Yes she has. But that's not my point.

Still, all that is speculation. Canonically, Ent-E wasn't involved in any fighting - that is our last definitive statement. If that is plausible or not makes no difference, not even star maps are consistent throughout canon. And then, of course, you have that RL bit where they can't show a Sovereign in the series due to licensing...​​

phoenixc

When I said the Sovereign class was a simple and straightforward warship I did not mean that it was only good for war, I was talking about how it was designed and crewed in the traditional armed services pattern. No dependents, few if any civilian technical/science experts, and everyone is in a single clear chain of command instead of the fuzzy complications a joint military/civilian operation can have.

Despite the "Wagon Train in Space" spiel that Roddenberry used to sell the series, he actually based it on Victorian sailing ship stories (particularly Hornblower), where when there was exploring to be done the various nations sent warships out to do it, partially for the explorers own safety but mainly because it was a potentially profitable use to put their otherwise idle naval assets to in peacetime.

Star Trek follows that same model for the most part, almost all of the Federation ships have dual roles though most fit that warship decked out with sophisticated enough sensor suites and with enough science-trained crew to double as explorers pattern, and the Sovereign class was no exception, unlike the Galaxy class ultra-long range explorer with its hybrid warship/civilian small cityship setup.

sirknot

I think a quote from Insurrection puts it best: "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers?" With DS9, we saw the Federation move towards politics and war. This game also appears to move in that direction, for example, the TFO of the Mars simulation was not received well when it was not a simple DPS shoot 'em up.

angrytarg

Almost all Trek games are exclusively about combat, including STO - that's not a good indicator of anything, it's simply action is more entertaining than puzzling for most.

rattler2

Would have been more reasonable than the reason for keeping Enterprise out of the fight agaisnt the Cube in First Contact.

phoenixc

Actually, Cornwell's comment on why they kept the Enterprise out of the war did not make any sense at all. If they had lost the war there would be no point in the Constitution class ships surviving since "their best" would be left without any support at all and would no longer represent anything any more.

jake477

> @phoenixc#0738 said:
> Actually, Cornwell's comment on why they kept the Enterprise out of the war did not make any sense at all. If they had lost the war there would be no point in the Constitution class ships surviving since "their best" would be left without any support at all and would no longer represent anything any more.

Unless they pulled off a Battlestar style escape like Galactica did. Had the Federation lost the Connie of its time or the Galaxy/Sovvie could strike out on her own and run of needed. If Voyager can manage those two certainly can. In the novels during the Borg Invasion, only 3 starships were pretty much it. The Enterprise E, Titan, and Aventine. Voyager's Battlefleet was wiped out which was the Alpha Quadrants last stand. Those three starships pretty much saved the Federation. The Enterprise D held the line on her own in Best of Both Worlds. They were not around during the fleet engagements either. Save the A-Team where it will counts which is why the Federation has lasted this long.

Starfleet having it's ace in the hole seems logical given how much was on the line in both cases.

rattler2

The ace in the hole idea is plausible, but I feel they would have recalled Enterprise and the other Connies in the event Earth was threatened directly. You know... Starfleet's Battle of the Line sort of thing. Hold nothing back in the defense of Earth. But it sounded more like Enterprise was purposely sent away to avoid the war. Even Cornwell said that they wanted something of the Federation to survive.

As for the Borg Invasion in the novels... while I never read them myself... it really feels like deus ex machina on the apocalypse sort of thing. Also the replacement DS9 looks like a frickin' Gyroscope. Why they decided to make her look like a Federationized Nor class station and not just something like a normal Starbase I don't know. Hell... even getting a new Nor class from the Cardassians might have been preferable to the Gyro.

khan5000

I prefer the E over the D. I never liked how the galaxy class looked, inside and out. All that carpeting and wood paneling made it seem like a cruise ship.

evilmark444

While it's certainly a big visual improvement over the Connie (both TOS and TMP versions), I was never that big of a fan of the Galaxy class. The Sovereign on the other hand was damn near perfect imo, so it and the ships that share it's design elements (Akira, Prometheus, Nova, Cryptic's Excalibur) will always be my favorite Federation designs (the NX and it's related ships are a close second).