i have pretty much all traits available to all carrier ships
full on pet build, my gunboats can do 3k normal 9k overload damage
normal jem fighters do 1.2k damage
elite squadrons do merely 200 250
and i did use boosts results did not change
it always takes 6 times more time with jem squadrns than normals, might be differnet case with others
besides pictures clearly shows the issue
I cannot see your screenshots. While the Squadrons do less damage per hit they do more DPS on average. Just fitted 1 hanger of Elite Jem Squadrons and 1 Hanger of Elite Jem Fighters and every time the Elite Jem Squadrons give more DPS then the Elite Jem Fighters.
The average hits of the Squadrons is less but due to the almost triple fire rate they do more DPS.
Just tested Jem Squad, Stalker Squad, Scorp Squad and Jem Fighter and the fighters came in last place for DPS while the Jem Squad came 2nd to last with Stalkers 1st.
Every time I tested, the Fighters take the longest to kill the 2 targets.
Are you testing aginst 1 single target with or without shields? Perhaps we are seeing a difference as I am testing against 2 targets at the same time?
Going to Elite does make DPS worse, accept for Stalkers which don't seem to suffer that bug.
Just done some more testing only 55k DPS from Jem pets making them middle tier. 5,629 DPS from the basic Jem Squadron, 4,255 DPS from the basic Jem Fighter. Average hit from the Squadron was 1,217 while the average hit from the Jem Fighter was 1,777. But that is made up from the Squadron getting 200 attacks against the Fighter only getting 104 attacks.
The fighters did get bigger hits but the DPS is less.
you said jem squadrons deal 3 times more damage even if thats true normal fighters deal 1200 damage while squadrons deal 200 there is 6 times damage difference
i tested;
1 elite jem hadar squadron vs 1 normal jem hadar fighter (1 bay vs 1 bay)
against previous event's (asteroid map against klingons) defense platforms that lacked shields (so fighters should be better without frigate's torpedoes + i know some fighters got torps but this is about jem:D)
so in the end against same targets elite squadrons took 90 secs to kill and just 15 for regular fighters (not squadron nor elite)
i will provide new links to photos, since then i only change tac bridge off abilities and made itmore like tac1, minedispersal1, torpedo spread3 but these has nothing to do with fighters
i would use trait that gives rapid fire to fighters but my ship is beam only and i used to use gunships that had their own beam overload 3, and jem fighters have rapid fire anyways and again besides, with or without that particular trait result would be the same. Squadrons deal 6 times less damage
you said jem squadrons deal 3 times more damage even if thats true normal fighters deal 1200 damage while squadrons deal 200 there is 6 times damage difference
i tested;
1 elite jem hadar squadron vs 1 normal jem hadar fighter (1 bay vs 1 bay)
against previous event's (asteroid map against klingons) defense platforms that lacked shields (so fighters should be better without frigate's torpedoes + i know some fighters got torps but this is about jem:D)
so in the end against same targets elite squadrons took 90 secs to kill and just 15 for regular fighters (not squadron nor elite)
i will provide new links to photos, since then i only change tac bridge off abilities and made itmore like tac1, minedispersal1, torpedo spread3 but these has nothing to do with fighters
i would use trait that gives rapid fire to fighters but my ship is beam only and i used to use gunships that had their own beam overload 3, and jem fighters have rapid fire anyways and again besides, with or without that particular trait result would be the same. Squadrons deal 6 times less damage
while testing i have both squadrons and normals equipped, but i got the one am done reside in hangar bay not launched-docked
Your ship being beam only doesn't matter. You can still use the Rapid Fire trait. I also see what is happening now. You are using basic pets without boosts while I am using pets with boosts
When you use pet boosts like Superior Area of Denial then this is what I see
Blue Squadrons do more DPS then Blue single fighters. Elite Squadrons do more DPS then Elite Single Fighters. Blue will outperform Elite. Accept for Stalkers which don’t suffer the Elite bug.
I tested with blue squadron against a blue single and the squadron did higher DPS every single time. Then I tested Elite squadron against Elite Single and the Elite squadron did more DPS every single time. But I am using pet boosts which you are not. Superior Area of Denial gives massively more DPS then Rapid fire.
Just did a test with Rapid fire although I wouldn't recommend getting it as Superior Area of Denial is far better.
Single Fighter did 1193 DPS with an average hit of 1379
Fighter Squad did 1243DPS with an average hit of 656
So the Squads do less damage per shot. But they do more damage and so the Squads kill faster if you make use of pet boosts.
man pics i sent both squadron and normal didnt use boosts
BUT WHILE THESE BASE STATS ARE LOWER;
%30 damage boost makes 200 damage 260
while 1200 damage becomes 1560
so thinking of boosts is pointless
result will be the same
6 times dps differnece
//////////////
i cant waste a tac slot for rapid fire, elite fighters constantly use it anyways
//////////
superior area denial of couse gives more dps NOT PER TARGET
///////
if i put 4 dual beam banks on 1 ship
and 1 turret which has lowest dps of all guns in the game
and used area denial on turret against a horde it would do more dps than 4 dual beams
am talking about single target damage which fighters were supposed to be otherwise i got my vanguard gunboats that also have fire at will
//////
when i used boosts other than rapid fire or area denial to pets trait, they still did 6 times less dps nonetheless
15 sec for normal fighters kill time became 10 against the enemy in the picture- platform
it was around 70 75 for squadrons
///////
and what are you exatcly implaying?
squadrons are useless bugged and cant deal damage, but when tactical birdge officer abilities used they become stronger than normal fighters? sounds like a bug
“%30 damage boost makes 200 damage 260
while 1200 damage becomes 1560
so thinking of boosts is pointless
result will be the same”
It doesn’t work like that and the boosts are not pointless. It goes something like the 200 becomes 656. The 1200 becomes 1379. But the 200/656 will land around triple the hits if not more so the Squadron ends up doing 1968 DPS against the fighter doing 1379 DPS so the Squadron kills faster and does more damage even though the average hit is lower. Even against a single target the Squadron will kill faster when using boosts. Without boosts its a different story.
“superior area denial of couse gives more dps NOT PER TARGET”
That is not how it works. With many pets Superior area denial gives a massive damage boost per target and at the same time hits extra targets. It is the biggest pet boosting option we have.
If you use the pet boosts the Squadrons will kill massively faster and massively out damage single fighters. I am happy to show you in game if our timezones match. Or I can give you my damage logs so you can see the difference? I fit zero beams and still use superior area denial, it is that good.
“squadrons are useless bugged and cant deal damage, but when tactical birdge officer abilities used they become stronger than normal fighters? sounds like a bug”
In my testing they are about on par with normal fighters without bridge officer powers then when you use bridge officer powers they pull massively ahead. Not just a small amount either. Fully boosted Squadron will kill 2 or 3 times faster then single fighters. I get around 30k DPS with single fighters and 80k to 100k DPS with Squadron's in my testing grounds. The Squadron 100,000 damage per second kills a lot faster then the 30,000 per second that Fighters do.
EDIT: Just looked at my combat log. My Stalker Squadron average hit in the new TFO over 20mins was 2,000 per hit without critical. The Squadron max hit without Beam overload was 4000 per hit and it fires faster then Fighters. With all my main weapons removed I did 84,000 damage per second. From what I have seen Singla Fighters cannot get anywhere near that high damage.
Without boosts its a different story.
yeah its glitch if it is different because boosts are % based
There are some glitch's but its more then that. We need to take into account the different fire rates of the weapons and how different weapons interact with Scatter Volley and FaW. Looking at the damage per hit does not tell you how much total damage they do or which will kill faster. It feels like you are just looking at the per hit damage and not factoring in the style of weapon or that you are hitting 2 or 3 times more often.
It doesn't help that there are glitch's and a lot of pets tooltips are incorrect or the the best pets without Scatter Volley and FaW are different to the best pets with Scatter Volley and FaW. But its been like that for so many years I don't think anything will change. Just like many Elite pets being worse basic blue pets, devs don't seem to care.
The 3/3 carriers are so outdated now there's no reason to even use them. Not only are they lacking weapon slots but their boff seating is usually heavily tilted towards science, but without a secondary deflector that means nothing.
I also can't figure out why cryptic wouldn't give them command seating and command auras, both of which make perfect sense for carriers.
I'd like to see them one of the following:
Option 1: both an experimental weapon and secondary deflector, along with possibly command auras and seating
Option 2: a third hangar bay over the current fdcs, as well as command auras and seating
Option 3: permanent escorts just like the jem'hadar vanguard ships get. Example: caitian aspero/atrox would get two shikaris escorts at all times with similar abilities to the vanguard escorts (shield heal, hull heal, or strafing run). The vanguard escorts are honestly the only thing that makes the old jemhadar carrier good, and it makes sense because carriers operate with support warships, not alone.
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Comments
The average hits of the Squadrons is less but due to the almost triple fire rate they do more DPS.
Just tested Jem Squad, Stalker Squad, Scorp Squad and Jem Fighter and the fighters came in last place for DPS while the Jem Squad came 2nd to last with Stalkers 1st.
Every time I tested, the Fighters take the longest to kill the 2 targets.
Are you testing aginst 1 single target with or without shields? Perhaps we are seeing a difference as I am testing against 2 targets at the same time?
Going to Elite does make DPS worse, accept for Stalkers which don't seem to suffer that bug.
The fighters did get bigger hits but the DPS is less.
i tested;
1 elite jem hadar squadron vs 1 normal jem hadar fighter (1 bay vs 1 bay)
against previous event's (asteroid map against klingons) defense platforms that lacked shields (so fighters should be better without frigate's torpedoes + i know some fighters got torps but this is about jem:D)
so in the end against same targets elite squadrons took 90 secs to kill and just 15 for regular fighters (not squadron nor elite)
i will provide new links to photos, since then i only change tac bridge off abilities and made itmore like tac1, minedispersal1, torpedo spread3 but these has nothing to do with fighters
i would use trait that gives rapid fire to fighters but my ship is beam only and i used to use gunships that had their own beam overload 3, and jem fighters have rapid fire anyways and again besides, with or without that particular trait result would be the same. Squadrons deal 6 times less damage
https://ibb.co/8gd4yBm
https://ibb.co/34jsPtm
while testing i have both squadrons and normals equipped, but i got the one am done reside in hangar bay not launched-docked
When you use pet boosts like Superior Area of Denial then this is what I see
Blue Squadrons do more DPS then Blue single fighters. Elite Squadrons do more DPS then Elite Single Fighters. Blue will outperform Elite. Accept for Stalkers which don’t suffer the Elite bug.
I tested with blue squadron against a blue single and the squadron did higher DPS every single time. Then I tested Elite squadron against Elite Single and the Elite squadron did more DPS every single time. But I am using pet boosts which you are not. Superior Area of Denial gives massively more DPS then Rapid fire.
Just did a test with Rapid fire although I wouldn't recommend getting it as Superior Area of Denial is far better.
Single Fighter did 1193 DPS with an average hit of 1379
Fighter Squad did 1243DPS with an average hit of 656
So the Squads do less damage per shot. But they do more damage and so the Squads kill faster if you make use of pet boosts.
BUT WHILE THESE BASE STATS ARE LOWER;
%30 damage boost makes 200 damage 260
while 1200 damage becomes 1560
so thinking of boosts is pointless
result will be the same
6 times dps differnece
//////////////
i cant waste a tac slot for rapid fire, elite fighters constantly use it anyways
//////////
superior area denial of couse gives more dps NOT PER TARGET
///////
if i put 4 dual beam banks on 1 ship
and 1 turret which has lowest dps of all guns in the game
and used area denial on turret against a horde it would do more dps than 4 dual beams
am talking about single target damage which fighters were supposed to be otherwise i got my vanguard gunboats that also have fire at will
//////
when i used boosts other than rapid fire or area denial to pets trait, they still did 6 times less dps nonetheless
15 sec for normal fighters kill time became 10 against the enemy in the picture- platform
it was around 70 75 for squadrons
///////
and what are you exatcly implaying?
squadrons are useless bugged and cant deal damage, but when tactical birdge officer abilities used they become stronger than normal fighters? sounds like a bug
https://ibb.co/34jsPtm
That is not how it works. With many pets Superior area denial gives a massive damage boost per target and at the same time hits extra targets. It is the biggest pet boosting option we have.
If you use the pet boosts the Squadrons will kill massively faster and massively out damage single fighters. I am happy to show you in game if our timezones match. Or I can give you my damage logs so you can see the difference? I fit zero beams and still use superior area denial, it is that good.
In my testing they are about on par with normal fighters without bridge officer powers then when you use bridge officer powers they pull massively ahead. Not just a small amount either. Fully boosted Squadron will kill 2 or 3 times faster then single fighters. I get around 30k DPS with single fighters and 80k to 100k DPS with Squadron's in my testing grounds. The Squadron 100,000 damage per second kills a lot faster then the 30,000 per second that Fighters do.
EDIT: Just looked at my combat log. My Stalker Squadron average hit in the new TFO over 20mins was 2,000 per hit without critical. The Squadron max hit without Beam overload was 4000 per hit and it fires faster then Fighters. With all my main weapons removed I did 84,000 damage per second. From what I have seen Singla Fighters cannot get anywhere near that high damage.
yeah its glitch if it is different because boosts are % based
It doesn't help that there are glitch's and a lot of pets tooltips are incorrect or the the best pets without Scatter Volley and FaW are different to the best pets with Scatter Volley and FaW. But its been like that for so many years I don't think anything will change. Just like many Elite pets being worse basic blue pets, devs don't seem to care.
I also can't figure out why cryptic wouldn't give them command seating and command auras, both of which make perfect sense for carriers.
I'd like to see them one of the following:
Option 1: both an experimental weapon and secondary deflector, along with possibly command auras and seating
Option 2: a third hangar bay over the current fdcs, as well as command auras and seating
Option 3: permanent escorts just like the jem'hadar vanguard ships get. Example: caitian aspero/atrox would get two shikaris escorts at all times with similar abilities to the vanguard escorts (shield heal, hull heal, or strafing run). The vanguard escorts are honestly the only thing that makes the old jemhadar carrier good, and it makes sense because carriers operate with support warships, not alone.
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