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We need a system to deal with people who join a queue and then leave it deliberately
xastirx
Member Posts: 71 Arc User
The last few days nearly every queue'd event I have joined had at least one person leave the queue right as the briefing was done with. They weren't disconnected as they would have just straight up blinked out, not faded out as happens when the person was normally on a ground map, instead in ground maps, they beam out or in space they go to warp.
What we need to deal with these individuals, since a character specific 1 hour or 30 minute ban is completley inneffective here, is a way for either the team leader to request reinforcements. This would in turn cause the next person(s) who select either Random TFO or the specific one that is short on people, they automatically get pulled into the queue instance that requested help. Another solution since some people do randoms exclusively for the bonus rewards, anyone who selects random gets prioritized into a queue that is missing people. This way, when a situation occurs in which two people do that crappy move, the remaining three, once the TFO becomes impossible, dont have to draw straws to see who is going to take the final leaver penalty so the other two can leave without one.
I know there is a system that eventually leads up to a permaban, but this is ineffective as it is too easily circumvented. Oh, my account got banned for my crappy move? thats fine, i'll just make a new email and make a new account.
I know we all came to have fun. But for those who leave their team high and dry, THAT is their fun: ruining everyone elses. We need a good tool to effectively fight back. I believe that tool is something that lets us bolster our numbers back to being a full team when those people do that.
While im on the subject of players whose existance screws over the whole team, since some TFO's require the entire teams presence in a section of the map to progress, but gold farmer toons don't ever move, what we need there is a way to vote to kick that player from the team and solicit the PvE system for reinforcements in the form of either someone who queued specifically for that TFO or queued for a Random.
As a final note, perhaps players who are willing to jump in to a mission that has been SNAFU'ed all to hell, they could be given a bit of incentive, since after all they are going not into a normal start of a mission and into one where the team is short a few people and the enemy has reinforced themselves to an extreme. This is going to require that not only the person joining get the team back to full strength, but to also push back an enemy who has become extremely powerful. In this case, an algorithim which chooses that incentive from a list based on what situation the person is jumping into. For example, if your jumping in the instant reinforcements are requested, and the situation is not that out of hand yet, you get the same randomized reward you would normally get. But if its been running a while and you come into an TFO where the team is out numbered 20 dreadnoughts to their 3 ships, then if you stick it out till victory is achieved, then this makes it almost certain you get the very rare or better mark of choice box.
In conclusion, what we need here is a way to fight back against those who would ruin everyone else's fun. Not just a way to fight back but a way to reward those who step in and say that they will help those who have been stabbed in the back by the very P'Tackh who joined their queue and left them to be made to choose between being slaughtered or banned.
What we need to deal with these individuals, since a character specific 1 hour or 30 minute ban is completley inneffective here, is a way for either the team leader to request reinforcements. This would in turn cause the next person(s) who select either Random TFO or the specific one that is short on people, they automatically get pulled into the queue instance that requested help. Another solution since some people do randoms exclusively for the bonus rewards, anyone who selects random gets prioritized into a queue that is missing people. This way, when a situation occurs in which two people do that crappy move, the remaining three, once the TFO becomes impossible, dont have to draw straws to see who is going to take the final leaver penalty so the other two can leave without one.
I know there is a system that eventually leads up to a permaban, but this is ineffective as it is too easily circumvented. Oh, my account got banned for my crappy move? thats fine, i'll just make a new email and make a new account.
I know we all came to have fun. But for those who leave their team high and dry, THAT is their fun: ruining everyone elses. We need a good tool to effectively fight back. I believe that tool is something that lets us bolster our numbers back to being a full team when those people do that.
While im on the subject of players whose existance screws over the whole team, since some TFO's require the entire teams presence in a section of the map to progress, but gold farmer toons don't ever move, what we need there is a way to vote to kick that player from the team and solicit the PvE system for reinforcements in the form of either someone who queued specifically for that TFO or queued for a Random.
As a final note, perhaps players who are willing to jump in to a mission that has been SNAFU'ed all to hell, they could be given a bit of incentive, since after all they are going not into a normal start of a mission and into one where the team is short a few people and the enemy has reinforced themselves to an extreme. This is going to require that not only the person joining get the team back to full strength, but to also push back an enemy who has become extremely powerful. In this case, an algorithim which chooses that incentive from a list based on what situation the person is jumping into. For example, if your jumping in the instant reinforcements are requested, and the situation is not that out of hand yet, you get the same randomized reward you would normally get. But if its been running a while and you come into an TFO where the team is out numbered 20 dreadnoughts to their 3 ships, then if you stick it out till victory is achieved, then this makes it almost certain you get the very rare or better mark of choice box.
In conclusion, what we need here is a way to fight back against those who would ruin everyone else's fun. Not just a way to fight back but a way to reward those who step in and say that they will help those who have been stabbed in the back by the very P'Tackh who joined their queue and left them to be made to choose between being slaughtered or banned.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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There is the possibility that a player reinforcements system could be abused though, similar to the random scenario railroading trick (not going into detail here) which would have to be taken into account in the design. If it does prove problematic with bringing in new players to the running scenario they could have NPC reinforcements show up if someone decides to bug out when they see which scenario the random system dropped them into (which is the main cause of the leaving-at-start thing) assuming the system can determine they actually left instead of dropped.
Determining who left vs dropped is fairly easy enough. The game could look for the circumstances of how their avatar left. Was their map transfer instructions that were executed? That sort of thing. See, if they get disconnected, that can be logged. If they abandoned the team, there are usually map transfer instructions to return the player to their previous map. Also there would be visual cues that would tell us as their team mates what happened.
For example in a space map. if you entered from another space map, then when you leave, your ship goes to warp. If you were on ESD ground for example, then you would just blink out of existance. On ground maps, regardless of where you came from any map transfer is preceded by you activating your communicator and then a transporter takes you. in the case of a disconnect, captains freeze in place, or ships stop cold without slowing down gradually and then blink out of the map.
Anyway, TLDR: if they disconnect or leave willingly, there are instructions that execute to facilitate their leaving the map. Rather it's "player disconnected from server, remove avatar" or "Player initiated command - Return to previous map - beginning map transfer" it gets logged somewhere. Additionally, instructions are also carried out for both contingencies. If it was a disconnect, them logging back in allows them to return to the map they DC'ed from, assuming that the rest of the team didnt complete the mission. If they left willingly, they are returned to the previous map with a PvE ban of 30-60 minutes.
The system is designed to give you reinforcements already, though. The problem is that it seems to close the door really really early. Basically once the queue actually starts it seems to not let anyone new come in, only during the countdown phase.
It probably is best to have a vote system or something to request reinforcements. I'd say it should be automatic, but I do know some queues can be horribly bugged sometimes and you have to abandon it, so you don't want people coming in to replace at that point. And definitely it needs to ensure that people who do reinforce get the full rewards.
I'm less concerned about punishing leavers though. They are wasting their own time if they are too dumb to just play through the map.
The reinforcement idea would be brilliant, I wouldn't mind being thrown into a task force half way. It'd feel thematic too, as all those stories where half way through the enterprise jumps in to help you, play that jumping into a situation you dont know whats happening just start firing and dont die.
With reinforcements you could even have, die and your out, task forces where its revolving door and new people coming in and as soon as you blow up youre out? Have no idea how that could be made fair rewardwise though, but its an idea.
Bring the Enterprise XCV-330 to STO
I understand the TFOs are buggy. Ive been playing them for 8 years now. But one person's frustration does not have to be someone else's ban when they see full well they are not going to complete the mission short handed.
That is indeed something the system would have to account for. Now in the best case scenario, you put your password back into the title screen, select the toon you were on and pick up where you left off. Worst case, you do the step i just mentioned, but the game fails to load the toon select screen. So you have to completely exit, relaunch the game fresh, and select that same character. You will of course be put back into the mission, assuming its still running. Now in the first case, you get DC'ed and your back in within 10-15 seconds. The worst case, depending on your computer can take 30 seconds to 2-3 minutes. In such a scenario, the server is of course aware that you are attempting to reconnect once you launch the game.
As for what to do there, the system could tell the person who elects to call for reinforcements that the person who left was disconnected and so it is going to give a fair chance for that person to come back. A max of 5 minutes, or until the system determines that player has no intention of rejoining(say they log in and pick a different toon) it then allows the team to call for reinforcements. Another component that could be added to this mechanic is an option a player can select at the account level that that can elect to override being put back into a mission in the event of a disconnect. This is something that people with crummy internet, or weak PC's could elect to do as a courtesy if they know that for whatever the reason they expect to get disconnected a lot. You know, as a way of saying "Hey, my connection or system aint that great, so it is likely i will get disconnected a lot, so if that is going to happen, don't hold the team up waiting for me to reconnect."
Now its not something that I personally would have to use as I have a strong PC with fast internet, but that might not always be the case. I could go on a trip that while i will have interenet access, it might not be the best, so while i may attempt TFO's during that time, i would check that option so that if my internet goes sideways, my leaving as a result of a DC wont TRIBBLE over the team. I can then uncheck it once i am back in a place where i know for certain that my connection is strong.
As for the penalty glitches, I have encountered those. Numerous times. Most recently, its been a result of getting teamed with someone whose DPS is so ungodly high that they can go for the cubes in Cure Space Advanced, without killing the 6 nanite probes. They do this wide sweeping manuver from the left cube to the right with their weapons buffed to the max. In that pass they kill the cubes, the nanite gens and the birds of prey at all 3 shipyards in about 10 seconds. By the time they are done and the rest of us are getting into position to fight the carrier, by the time the visible component of our weapons cover half the gap between attacking player and the target(damage is not counted until the visible component of a weapons attack actually hits something) this guy has already killed the carrier and its 2 attending spheres. As a result, even though we fired our weapons, we all get AFK penalties becuase we did zero damage and took zero damage. This is of course becuase it read from the combat log. It can't go off of keyboard inputs as that could be circumvented by setting your engines at some level and putting something with some weight on one of your turn buttons so you fly in a circle. Personally, i think that until some system can be put in place to allow for reinforcements to be summoned when it is called for and DC'ed players have been given the chance to rejoin, those penalties should be removed completely.
if not that then the penalty should only be applied to one player. that player being one that the system can confirm left of their own accord. Once that player has been penalized, then the other 1-4 can leave with no punishment.
Level 1
had no personal shield equipped
just stood there doing nothing
we could not start the first stage of the mission becuase all 5 of us had to enter that first chamber so a force field could be raised behind us. Well since they did not move, that could not happen, so we were stuck. It would have been nice to do a kick vote and call for a reinforcement player. Instead of you know...2 of us taking a ban and the two others having to requeue.
There are some who would say that maybe they should not have queued then. But, I am not one of those. No system is perfect. And I have been in each and everyone of those situations you described. I was in ISE once(when normal and elite were the only two difficulties) and the power went out. Not because of a lightning storm that should have been an indicator to me not to be doing STF's(as they were known back then) but because some drunk driver plowed a truck into a transformer at a sub station, knocking out power to a rather wide region. I got called into work while doing TFO's, had to leave once because my wife needed to go to the doctor. As for the TP run, that was the result of a rather nasty case of food poisoning.
Basically what I am saying is "you're not wrong" But at the same time, one person having to leave for whatever reason, should not ruin the experience for 4-19 other people(there are TFO's that require up to 20 people. Either by leaving them to face impossible odds, or by focing them to take a 1 hour ban themselves. Trust me, if you left a TFO that we were running together because of an IRL reason, im not going to hold it against you. But at the same time, it isnt fair that I and 3 other people should be put in the situation of not being able to do what we logged on to do for a full hour. I mean, i log on to earn dilithium, expand my ship collection. Not get a ban from playing TFO's and have nothing to do for the next hour other than to get drawn into another political debate like the ones that now dominate the chat on ESD and Risa.
But what you speak of, in most instances, the 1 hour ban would not affect you. I mean, for me my shortest trip to the Dr. i was there for over 4 hours. Most of that was waiting for test results to come back. My longest involved waiting for a literal 12 hours as all the area ER's were packed, and mind you i went in by ambulance. Yeah, 12 hours strapped to a gurney waiting for a room. Anytime i got called into work it was usually for at least half a day. The shortest power outage i ever experienced was 10 minutes, but the game knew i disconnected by means other than my own will.
Long story short, anytime Real Life takes you away, yeah, you may get a character specific ban. Meaning that if your Real Life call away was less than an hour, if you have an alt, play them. The ban wont affect them. But other than that, most RL interventions last for so long that by the time you get back, your ban is over. Out of the...now that i think about it 7 times i had to take a penalty for leaving early, i was back in less than an hour in 2 of those cases. Both times i had over 10 alternate characters i could do TFO's on until the character that got banned was no longer banned. And besides that, say you and I are doing a TFO together. If i get called into work and have to leave. Your options are
1) Finish the TFO a man short and not have another player join because well, i left for a legit reason and that is justifiation for you having to work twice as hard to win.
2) Leave the TFO because you would rather take a 1 hour ban than have to spend more than that amount of time trying to win
or, and this is the option I am proposing
3) Call for a person waiting to join a random queue join your TFO so you can finish in a timely fashion.
Yes i know there are those who have a legitimate reason for leaving, but if your gonna be gone for more than the amount of time than the TFO would otherwise take then there is no reason for not allowing someone else to take your place.
If we keep avoiding addressing the problems that are here now, there are a lot of people who may or may not have a very limited amount of time to hop on and get some enjoyment out of their day, only to join a TFO and have 2 people say "have fun" and then warp/beam out of the map, leaving the other three there to deal with the mission on their own.
It's a good place to start from.
The issue could be a mechanical one (game crashes and they're not at fault).
If you want a punishing system:
-everyone leaving before being in combat gets an inability to refine dil for 24h.
-everyone leaving in the first 5 minutes from the combat initiation gets a character ban to queues for 3h and is unable to refine dil for 48h (also applying for the afk-ers in the 5 minutes mark)
-everyone leaving after the 5 minutes mark gets no punishment
-everyone refusing to participate actively/griefing gets a 72h dil refine penalty and a 1 day ban to queues.
The only issue i see is CaptainCelestial's concerns. What if a person leaves for one of the legitimate reasons he mentioned. I know the first step to resolving that would be an appeal system, however, by the time someone got to a given persons appeal, the bans would have expired. Not to mention that those who did leave for the intention of ruining the TFO would also flood the appeals system with appeals of their own fir the intention of delaying the appeals of those who left for legitimate reasons.
Were it not for known quantity of players who revel in the misery of others i would be inclined to agree.
It'd be too easy for 3-4 people to team up, hit the RTFO button and kick whoever is unlucky enough to end up in a queue with them.
As for withholding the ability to refine, that goes against a paid feature in the game (LTS) so that will never be implemented even IF it was a good idea.
Like i said, i can understand why people want a kick system and it has been proposed numerous times before BUT it is simply too vulnerable to abuse.
You can't blame players for leaving a random TFO that is only random in the sense that they randomly excluded content from it. It doesn't work properly, so no one should be forced to stick with it once they suffer again from its half-baked implementation and the arbitrary changes made afterwards.
Fix it, then see what can be done about related issues. These related issues of players leaving, are not the core of the problem.
> I would agree to this solution, I think it’s more reactionary and a more proactive solution would be more effective. For example, I admit I will drop a TFO in the first 30 seconds and just switch toons to keep playing, generally I only do this if I’m on new toon and I’m working on kitting out my ship and have not started or even worried about his ground gear. So I’m using what ever loot has dropped. It’s just to annoying running a borg ground TFO with that setup. Saying I should stay out of TFO’s is also not a solution if I’m trying to get marks to upgrade reps and get better gear so I CAN run those missions.
>
> I think they should have a separate ground and space que and this would prevent 95% of drops from me. With no drops there is no longer a need for a solution.
>
> Also I would LOVE some form of “remembered settings que” for example. Let me go check all the boxes for ques I want, then click save button. Then after I play witch ever TFO popped all I have to do so come back a click the button again and all those same ques get checked. I don’t have to spend 2 dozen clicks getting the marks im looking for Or chancing something with random.
I know playing random let’s you pick the marks you want, but playing random all the time means you end up playing the same few missions over and over.
> Forgive me if did not make myself clear, clicking random is one click to start playing. Repeatedly clicking a dozen TFOs for space only gets freaking old
Clicking random means fewer clicks. Again this is not something I would do every day. It’s not like I have a need to create a new toon and start over again. But it is something I known others have done like fleet mates and I have done in past. And as for as not knowing goes. I KNOW I can do Advanced Space missions, That doesn’t mean the same for my ground build. But I play STO for the ships and rp. Not to TRIBBLE around with a bad shooter game on old bad maps.
So, How's this: And I am going to try to have the interactions with the computer elements be as immersive as possible.
For starters we will use a TFO a lot of people hate, Gravity Kills, as opposed to the one everyone likes:Gravity, it keeps one from flaoting into space and suffocating in vacuum.
Ok, so we all warp into the map. 2 of you picked this map, likely becuase your trying to get Lukari Marks. The remaining 3 of us, oncluding me hit the random button. Upon entry, 2 of the ones who chose random immidiately warp out. The first one becuse they hate that map and has no problem taking the 1 hour ban, after all they have like 20 alts. The second, being one of those guys who likes TRIBBLE over the other players. The system logs both players as having left of their own accord, so it wont be reserving those spots for them.
The team leader now has the option of pressing the button that now appears as part of that same interaction menu where things like Take Items or Disable Tractor Beam would be if we were playing Azure Nebula. This button can be labled something Role playing and Immsersive. Lets call it, General Distress Call.
Now this is where things could go one of two ways, depending on outcome. Given that this is emulating the distress call system from canon, this of course leaves it to the individual captains on the receiving end. Do we go or not? Once the call is sent, the server then goes to everyone who Queued for a random mission one-by-one, also including those who are themselves waiting to start a run of GK. They see a box pop up with some immersive flavor text along the lines of: Captain(or what ever your rank is) we are receiving a general distress call from the team assaulting the Tzenkethi bases near a black hole located in the Alpha Quadrwant. Do you want me to change course to intercept? And then there are the usual "yes/no" buttons only they're labled <Helm, Engage at maximum warp> and <no, we will stay on this course>
Scenario 1- Help arrives: In this one, two of the players solicited say yes. They warp in at the mission start point. the roster is now at full strength again. 4 minutes later, another player warps out. As they prepare to do so, they say in chat that they just got called into work and have to leave at once. Rest of the team understands and thanks then for at least taking the 5 seconds it took to type that and explaining why. Once they are gone, the button reappears for the team leader. they activate it, another distress call is received by those waiting to join a mission. And another person takes the third leaver's place. Mission proceeds without further hiccups.
Scenario 2- Help is refused: In this one, 25 players are solicited for aid. Including the 3 people that are waiting in the actual GK queue. They all decline. The randoms not wanting to do GK under even the best conditions, and the ones in the actual queue for GK want to start a fresh mission, not jump head first into possibly being out numbered 20 to 1 by Tzenkethi battleships. So, they all select <no, we will stay on course>. After that, the team in GK will receive a message saying that there are no ships in range to respond to your distress call. Command will not hold it against you if your team would rather abort the mission. We can try again when the situation dies down some and we are able to send in another full team. What is your response?
<Abort mission and try again when we are reinforced> <STAY THE COURSE, FULL POWER TO WEAPONS!>
Now this is where scenario 2 branches off into 2 sub-scenarios.
Scenario 2-Alpha: The 3(or 4 if they got reinforced the first time but not the second) decide by majority vote to abort the mission. (in the event of a tie, the ones who voted to leave can leave without penalty and another call for reinforcements is sent, failing that, scenario 2-Beta plays out) Since majority voted to abort, the game ends the mission and everyone can leave witout penalty. The game may or may not, depending on Developer preference, award dilithium and marks for the parts of the mission that were completed. In this case, say the Jupiter at the time of mission abort was at 24% hull, which is like 4 marks i think, 2 stations were destroyed. Everyone is then free to queue for another mission.
Scenario 2-Beta: by Majority, or tie, those who are staying get reinforced by hero ships from the team leader's faction, up to a maximum of 4 ships, if the team leader ends up going it alone. Depending on faction the ships that show up are the following:
For Standard Federation: USS Enterprise-F, USS Defiant, USS Voyager, USS Rhode Island, USS Chimera(any four of these)
For a Federation Faction where you are a temporal agent for Daniels: same as modern fed, plus possibility for USS Pastack, Enterprise-J, USS Relativity, USS Paladin, USS Saggitarius
Klingon: IKS Bortas'qu, IKS Hegh, IKS-whatever the klingon equivalent of the Ent-J is, IKS Rotarran, IKS Alliance
Romulan: RRW L'liset, RRW Zdenia, RRW Haakona, RRW some other fourth name
Dominion: Odo's Flagship, Dukan'Rex the second's heavy raider, Loriss's Carrier, DV Weyoun's Folly
Once in the mission these NPC reinforcements can be bound to a control panel that works along a similar vein to the wing men controls used to control Jem Hadar Vanguard Wingmen. This is essential because if they follow the player the way they normally do in a Tau Dewa Patrol or in counterpoint where the Defiant follows, usually the team leader around, the team leader will continuously get slaughtered since the NPC ships will be far enough behind that they wont engage before the leader dies. So with this interface, the leader can order the NPC ships to charge in first. Since they wont have the AI needed to go in, grab a hawking particle and take it to the jupiter. After the leader sends the NPC's in, the remaining human controlled players can go in and grab the particles needed to power up the jupiter.
Note: should a NPC ship fall into the black hole, it can warp out and return to start like players do. Or be destroyed and respawn but it can be glossed over as "they warped out at the last possible instant".
Also by having them behave exactly as the Wingmen do gives the leader the ability to make sure that they engage the enemy properly. That is when you give the attack run order, the NPC's so ordered warp to your side and attack along a vector parallel to your course. This way you can make sure that they attack the enemy ships forward squishy shields.
Anyway, this I hope will in some way account for any possible scenario where a TFO can be completed one way or another. Or, be allowed to be abandoned when it becomes clear that victory has less chance than a snowball in a class Y atmosphere.
Those that leave, give them a severe penalty.
Those that crash, well, those not, of course.
Also, make it possible to people can report absent/inactive players (those as well are around a lot: entering, and just sitting in a safe zone/spot).
Reported people should also be severely punished, but of course, the WHOLE GROUP has to report that one or two players.
A single report, or even two, would not be enough, since some folks are less honourable.
Repeated offence should throw these players into a "bad player group" which then they can only do missions/events with their fellow bad player comrades.
They just get less sober.
Additionally there are those to whom that sort of thing happens a lot. When i worked in retail i only really got maybe 1 out of every 10 days off without getting called into work. There were plenty of people who honestly thought i was doing that to ruin it for people.