> @paladinrja#5247 said: > (Quote) > Yep, well said. 👍 > > Recently I was watching "For the love of Spock" on netflix (I think) and in the docco, Leonard Nimmoy (among many others) made it pretty clear that budget per episode / film; directly determined what they could do in either. Especially where the creature shop is concerned, its very much an evolving process. -- Now, I think I read somewhere that DSC episodes are up to $11 million each? Pretty sure thats the highest Star Trek has ever had to work with per episode and the result is marvelous!
Please don't counter with unreasonable praise either. For that much budget there are plenty of letdowns. The space CGIy alone features plenty of glitches and clipping they never bothered to fix post production (missing effects, background ships clipping through each other). A big budget doesn't say much about quality.
Anyway, regarding the topic: Watching the trailer/video on twitter I hate to be that space pig, but I literally saw no difference between the new textures and the old ones. I tried really hard, watched it in full screen full resolution but I cannot see for the life of mine what they changed.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
> @paladinrja#5247 said:
> (Quote)
> Yep, well said. 👍
>
> Recently I was watching "For the love of Spock" on netflix (I think) and in the docco, Leonard Nimmoy (among many others) made it pretty clear that budget per episode / film; directly determined what they could do in either. Especially where the creature shop is concerned, its very much an evolving process. -- Now, I think I read somewhere that DSC episodes are up to $11 million each? Pretty sure thats the highest Star Trek has ever had to work with per episode and the result is marvelous!
Please don't counter with unreasonable praise either. For that much budget there are plenty of letdowns. The space CGIy alone features plenty of glitches and clipping they never bothered to fix post production (missing effects, background ships clipping through each other). A big budget doesn't say much about quality.
Anyway, regarding the topic: Watching the trailer/video on twitter I hate to be that space pig, but I literally saw no difference between the new textures and the old ones. I tried really hard, watched it in full screen full resolution but I cannot see for the life of mine what they changed.
Nothing out of the ordinary there. I mean just look at the difference between old First City and New First City. They basically took the old First City map, cleaned it up, add some brighter lighting, and some details here and there. Then they put it ingame and called it the New First City. I mean, when i visited it for the first time, I had to ask where the new First City was, because I didn't see an actual difference.
Please don't counter with unreasonable praise either. For that much budget there are plenty of letdowns. The space CGIy alone features plenty of glitches and clipping they never bothered to fix post production (missing effects, background ships clipping through each other). A big budget doesn't say much about quality.
Please don't counter with unreasonable praise either. For that much budget there are plenty of letdowns. The space CGIy alone features plenty of glitches and clipping they never bothered to fix post production (missing effects, background ships clipping through each other). A big budget doesn't say much about quality.
Not really, the budget is overlarge enough that they apparently got sloppy and lazy. It is not exactly an unknown thing for that to happen in Hollywood.
Besides, budget is not everything and never has been. Just look at TOS, they had a budget that could barely handle SFX at all and a lot of the iconic things were invented because they needed a cheaper way to do things. The transporters are a good example, they are an inexpensive cross-dissolve used in place of the much more expensive option of landing a shuttle or ship every episode (which back then would have taken half the budget for the episode to do). Too much money can be just as much of a crimp to creativity that way too small a budget can be.
one year of klingon content updates and the most obvious thing is being ignored: disco player klingon models.
those "klingons" do NOT exist. they are NOT canon and never WILL be, simple as that. the TRUE Klingon look has alREADy been established in ToS/STNG, ans explained in Ent. the how the humanized version came to be. there was never a need to change their "look"
WE SURVIVE!
aut vincere aut mori pro imperio
either to conquer or to die for the Empire
Can we please bring this thread back to the Year of Klingon instead of our personal interpretation of a Klingon? Sorry to burst your bubble but the Klingons in Star Trek: Discovery are Klingons whether you like it or not. Enough with the true Scotsman fallacy! Also, the difference to the Klingons' appearance is stylistic, who knows maybe it will change again during S3 whenever that happens. Otherwise, I do not see the Orc to them. So in conclusion the DSC Klingons are real Klingons. If you want to not believe that, that is up to you. Stop with the gatekeeping please! Thanks.
"Enough with the true Scotsman fallacy?" Good thing I am really Scottish then, lol. Not sorry that I am busting your bubble but you are literally being offended by a meme. There is even one of the same image in reverse. I never said you couldn't play as one. I am allowed to dislike and not consider them as Klingons that is my prerogative.
I am still discussing Klingons. Their aesthetics is one of them. it literally says "Year of Klingon" The hint is in the name for you. At no point did I say that you can't play DSC Klingorcs. Please learn the definition of gate keeping and use it correctly. Thanks! Toodles!
PS. Just because apples and oranges are fruits doesn't mean they have anything in common. They taste nothing alike and nor do they look the same in either appearance or texture. You screaming that it does and demand I say the same isn't going to EVER HAPPEN.
Recently I was watching "For the love of Spock" on netflix (I think) and in the docco, Leonard Nimmoy (among many others) made it pretty clear that budget per episode / film; directly determined what they could do in either. Especially where the creature shop is concerned, its very much an evolving process. -- Now, I think I read somewhere that DSC episodes are up to $11 million each? Pretty sure thats the highest Star Trek has ever had to work with per episode and the result is marvelous!
No, not well said at all. A personal witch hunt shouldn't be validated. I wasn't holding a sign up saying "NO KLINGON DSC ORCS ALLOWED". Someone stating their dislike for something doesn't translate to bullying or gate keeping.
That was the 60s... everyone knows that. It isn't some revelation. The difference between that design and DSC is those designers worked on top of the original complexion and built on top of the foundation. Discovery broke the mold and then murdered the mold-maker and decided to create something radically different. If it wasn't for all the Trekkies decrying it in season 1 they wouldn't have panicked and tried to appease them by throwing hair on their heads at the last minute in S2 or remove great deal of the rubber masks around their faces. Or throw in D7 class battle cruisers in the S2 finale. LOOK!!!! REMEMBER THEM!!! IT JUST LIKE TREK!! WE KNOW TREK!! SEE!! TEEHEE!! I can appreciate a few parts of DSC. That isn't one of them.
"especially where the creature shop is concerned, its very much an evolving process."
I wouldn't call devolving the same thing as evolution unless you're Gorilla Grodd that is. To be fair to JJ at least he kept them resembling Klingon. All he did was shave them and give few of them ridge piercings but they still remained for the most part the same design.
Yeah $9-$11 million. Sure visually good in some parts. Doesn't help the script etc. Throwing endless money at something doesn't automatically make something good.
Post edited by terranempire#7881 on
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Anyway, regarding the topic: Watching the trailer/video on twitter I hate to be that space pig, but I literally saw no difference between the new textures and the old ones. I tried really hard, watched it in full screen full resolution but I cannot see for the life of mine what they changed.
Compared to the ones currently in-game, the new ones have significantly better texture quality, which in turn means the braids are far more defined and individually noticeable, rather then the giant sold mess the current hairs are. They also look a lot less waxy compared to the current versions of the hairs.
Solid lump of hair is good enough if you don't want dreadlocks like this guy.
Which is funny considering that even Nausicaans had more hair variety besides Predator dreads.
Some old concept art. I am beginning to see where the dreadlock obsession sprang from. The old Borg models have the same problem concept art depicted them as zombie ghouls. I think Cryptic is slowly phasing them out because of the screen accurate lobi borg costumes they made.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
one year of klingon content updates and the most obvious thing is being ignored: disco player klingon models.
those "klingons" do NOT exist. they are NOT canon and never WILL be, simple as that. the TRUE Klingon look has alREADy been established in ToS/STNG, ans explained in Ent. the how the humanized version came to be. there was never a need to change their "look"
We might not like them but they are allowed to ask for content related to those cosmetics. If they really want to play as one of them as a faction though I don't see it happening. They can already use their ears and skin textures/uniforms in-game. If they even bothered to look.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
The "screen accurate" Borg have always been used when dealing with Borg from the TNG era, even long before they released the lobi item. Appearing in the "Khitomer in Stasis" TFO as well, since those are supposed to be TNG era Borg that had been lying in wait under Vega. The "zombie" Borg are the 2409 Borg, and have been used when dealing with current day Borg.
there hasn't been any attempt to replace one with the other, they are just two different eras of Borg.
The odd few. However the vast majority have been 2010 zombie era ones.
It's artistic licence by the old developers working on the game back on a very old engine. Trek has already seen 29th "future" Borg on Voyager and they don't appear like ghoulish zombies of STO. The 2010 designs are showing their age.
Btw they did replace them in the recent first contact ground event "One Night: In Bozeman borg". So yeah there has been an attempt and that is a good thing. When you give old content a face lift the whole point is to phase out the old stuff. They can even keep the zombie ones they originally created but they're in dire need of a update.
Post edited by terranempire#7881 on
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
> @terranempire#7881 said: > (Quote) > > Solid lump of hair is good enough if you don't want dreadlocks like this guy. > > (Image) > > > > Which is funny considering that even Nausicaans had more hair variety besides Predator dreads. > > > > (Image) > > Some old concept art. I am beginning to see where the dreadlock obsession sprang from. The old Borg models have the same problem concept art depicted them as zombie ghouls. I think Cryptic is slowly phasing them out because of the screen accurate lobi borg costumes they made.
Give me female Naussicans, and I'll be on board with creating a Klingon-aligned character!
CM
"Equipped with his five senses, man explores the universe around him and calls the adventure science." - Edwin Hubble
one year of klingon content updates and the most obvious thing is being ignored: disco player klingon models.
those "klingons" do NOT exist. they are NOT canon and never WILL be, simple as that. the TRUE Klingon look has alREADy been established in ToS/STNG, ans explained in Ent. the how the humanized version came to be. there was never a need to change their "look"
"Canon" is the wrong word for it actually, by definition they are "canon" because CBS owns the IP. What they are is a serious discontinuity if you look at Klingons as a monolithic race/society, but not so much if "Klingon" is the umbrella name for people from that empire. As I pointed out earlier, taking onscreen evidence and sociological cues into account the Klingons were anything but homogenous and monolithic even as far back as TOS.
In fact, with better attention to the writing (they actually focused more on eye-candy SFX and action movie schticks than plotting and worldbuilding) and clever twists of the preexisting history using the new viewpoint context of the show it could have been fantastic. The show could have done a deep dive into Burnham's war and actually sustained it in an interesting way if they had done that better scripting.
Also, as a nice side effect, a mix of actors in DSC, TOS, movie and TNG makeup versions would have made the dialog less tediously slow since the older makeups did not require the actors to fight it to speak (which resulted in very slow, ponderously slogging dialog) and the mix of talking speeds would alleviate the tedium somewhat. Another thing that would have helped, especially since they used handheld camera anyway, would have been using the old standard foreign language indicator schtick of starting a scene in Klingon then having the camera suddenly shift in the middle of a sentence (symbolically indicating a shift of perspective) and the actors use English from that point until the end of the scene.
In fact, they could have reversed that for a Klingon point of view of Federation speech, for instance showing some Klingons speaking English and when Burnham and Georgiou show up in their incursion have the Starfleet pair speak an English soundalike for a few seconds before "viewer" focus shifts to them and they speak English and the Klingons go back to speaking Klingon. It is probably much too subtle for DSC though.
They could also indicate the point of view with the lighting, if they did that the Klingon interiors would have the usual reddish light when the camera has a 'human/objective' viewpoint (and English subtitles with Klingon vocals) and white light when seen from a Klingon/subjective viewpoint when the Klingons use English vocals (and Fed ships could be the other way around, white light for the Starfleet crew viewpoint and a very cold blueish light from the point of view of Klingon boarding parties).
Anyway, that is getting too far off the subject. The point is, the problem is not in introducing a new type of Klingon makeup, it is in thinking that the viewers will accept it as the ONLY look for Klingons after the others were well established already. If they do it as an addition there is no real problem.
BTW, a good example of the "English soundalike" I mentioned is here (especially since the Klingons in the scene might know a few words of Federation Standard):
Give me female Naussicans, and I'll be on board with creating a Klingon-aligned character!
CM
If they did that though it would open the doors to the people that want female Gorn.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Personally, I'm hoping this results in adding more conveniences to First City; such as Exchange access on a spare Shipyard console, and making many vendors and essential personnel closer (tailor, Boff Training, Primary Quest giver, etc). Especially since they were attacked during the Iconian Arc and could do with a refresh the way ESD got.
That aside, I'm also on the side that expects that the KDF side will have an Alliance merge option around the Solanae/Delta Alliance arc when we're forming alliances anyway, and also opens up allowing unrestricted ship use as an Alliance member. Which is also all the more convenient for Cryptic; they now have a reason to do Rom and KDF ship designs besides Fed, since now Feds can buy and use them too and the KDF-side can start buying Fed ships for traits/modules they've been wanting/needing. In a way, I'm also hoping for this, if only to allow more blended designs like the Alliance Battlecruiser (can we next have a Rom-centric design, like a slimmer, sleeker T6 Scimitar with Fed-style nacelles forming a "tail" and a giant phoenix painted on its belly and nacelle undersides), in addition to offering superficial "Fed/KDF/Rom" themed ships here and there. I say "superficial" only because this opens up new 2-ship or 3-ship pack options that just allow the consoles of each ship to work together rather than having to do the old 9-ship mega bundles, as well as making individual starship traits again (instead of 2-3 copies across 2-3 different ships).
I do wonder if they're also planning a Disco Klingon starter option, similar to the Disco Fed, as well as a TOS Klingon starter, again copying the TOS Fed. The Disco Klingon starter could see them changing their ways to matching the more modern Klingon philosophy after being pulled forward in time and trying to stop J'Ula. It'd also be as good a time as any to once again run a new character incentive either via the Temporal Agent or Delta Recruit program, if only to encourage players to try out the new and revamped KDF experience, with few extra Account bonuses (just extra level up milestones added to the existing KDF level up milestones) added for starting a new Disco Klingon, new TOS Klingon, and Disco Fed (added Disco Fed since I don't recall them also having a starter incentive the way TOS had a Delta Recruit incentive).
Actually, the Nausicans and Gorn are alien enough that they could already be showing both males and females and humans might not be able to tell the difference.
The "screen accurate" Borg have always been used when dealing with Borg from the TNG era, even long before they released the lobi item. Appearing in the "Khitomer in Stasis" TFO as well, since those are supposed to be TNG era Borg that had been lying in wait under Vega. The "zombie" Borg are the 2409 Borg, and have been used when dealing with current day Borg.
there hasn't been any attempt to replace one with the other, they are just two different eras of Borg.
The odd few. However the vast majority have been 2010 zombie era ones.
It's artistic licence by the old developers working on the game back on a very old engine. Trek has already seen 29th "future" Borg on Voyager and they don't appear like ghoulish zombies of STO. The 2010 designs are showing their age.
Btw they did replace them in the recent first contact ground event "One Night: In Bozeman borg". So yeah there has been an attempt and that is a good thing. When you give old content a face lift the whole point is to phase out the old stuff. They can even keep the zombie ones they originally created but they're in dire need of a update.
The 2010 Borg were deliberately created to show the Borg adapting, specifically to Voyager and others reclaiming the drones. By gutting them of even more biological parts, they can't be reclaimed because the person underneath is far too gone. I'm fairly sure this info used to be in one of the STFs back when they were complete stories.
Their use is fairly consistent as I've found with the newly assimilated being very obvious as to what they were, and old generation borg showing up when they should, but obviously most Borg we encounter are the zombies as you put it.
You don't have to like them, but there is in universe logic to them.
I'm pretty sure they'll look at including Ha'tesh's model as a selectable template (Head type category), as well as that of the Kelvin timeline Klingons (helms off appearance), through the course of working on the reimage. As it stands, its a lot of mucking around to merely get close to either type. I don't even think the Kelvin complextions are available at all (or even created in the game) as of yet; come to think of it?
It's artistic licence by the old developers working on the game back on a very old engine. Trek has already seen 29th "future" Borg on Voyager and they don't appear like ghoulish zombies of STO. The 2010 designs are showing their age.
Btw they did replace them in the recent first contact ground event "One Night: In Bozeman borg". So yeah there has been an attempt and that is a good thing. When you give old content a face lift the whole point is to phase out the old stuff. They can even keep the zombie ones they originally created but they're in dire need of a update.
Uhh no as @foxrockssocks pointed out, the zombie Borg were a deliberate evolution of the Borg drone in responce to Voyager's actions.
Also, the majority of the Borg drones we see in the Bozeman patrol are from the TNG era. Either from the Borg Sphere before it was destroyed, or recently assimilated Enterprise crewman. Which is why they look like the old Borg instead of the 2410 Borg.
Again, not a retcon of the 2410 Borg drone design.
I do wonder if they're also planning a Disco Klingon starter option, similar to the Disco Fed, as well as a TOS Klingon starter, again copying the TOS Fed. The Disco Klingon starter could see them changing their ways to matching the more modern Klingon philosophy after being pulled forward in time and trying to stop J'Ula. It'd also be as good a time as any to once again run a new character incentive either via the Temporal Agent or Delta Recruit program, if only to encourage players to try out the new and revamped KDF experience, with few extra Account bonuses (just extra level up milestones added to the existing KDF level up milestones) added for starting a new Disco Klingon, new TOS Klingon, and Disco Fed (added Disco Fed since I don't recall them also having a starter incentive the way TOS had a Delta Recruit incentive).
Cryptic has previously said they are unlikely to do a TOS or DIS era Klingon started because we know so little about what the Klingons were doing in either era besides attacking the Federation, and in both shows they were shown entirely as an enemy, and it wasn't until the TNG/DS9/VOY era that they became developed.
Ironically, TOS season four was going to dive deeper into the Klingons and turn them from the largely two-dimensional enemy they had been up til then into an understandable and even somewhat likeable political rival. The Trouble With Tribbles was the foreshadowing of that, Koloth and crew were supposed to become semi-regulars and the two ships would often be competing in the Organian Neutral Zone for planets and whatnot, and even occasionally team up against threats to both of them.
Unfortunately the fans only got the network to hesitate for one season in their decision to kill the show so we never got to see the Klingons in more detail or McCoy's daughter joining the crew and the family angst that caused the good doctor, or any of the other things they had planned for fourth season.
The 2010 Borg were deliberately created to show the Borg adapting, specifically to Voyager and others reclaiming the drones. By gutting them of even more biological parts, they can't be reclaimed because the person underneath is far too gone. I'm fairly sure this info used to be in one of the STFs back when they were complete stories.
Their use is fairly consistent as I've found with the newly assimilated being very obvious as to what they were, and old generation borg showing up when they should, but obviously most Borg we encounter are the zombies as you put it.
You don't have to like them, but there is in universe logic to them.
Well I have no way of verifying if the story you told is the reason for their designs. I do know that no matter how much you hack someone limbs off and mutilate their bodies they still remain human underneath. The idea of reclaiming your humanity even when they hack you to pieces has recurred in a lot of sci-fi. Robocop, Ghost in the shell etc.
I don't buy this created "in-universe logic" as it contradicts this.
I don't dislike the robotic flesh body horror. It's the whole anorexic thing that I don't really like. They look like the Borg Queen if she had her spinal cord exposed without her body armour casing. You would think they would have their Borgs walking in tank robot exoskeletons then ones that look like twigs.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Uhh no as @foxrockssocks pointed out, the zombie Borg were a deliberate evolution of the Borg drone in responce to Voyager's actions.
No they didn't. No quotes or sources means I only have their word. Even if it was the in-universe reason for their designs it's a complete contradiction. Removing more body parts doesn't strip someone of their humanity. That was the whole point of Picard/Seven arc and is reoccurring theme in lot of sci-fi that just because you're reduced to being a cyborg doesn't mean you're a mindless machine.
Also, the majority of the Borg drones we see in the Bozeman patrol are from the TNG era. Either from the Borg Sphere before it was destroyed, or recently assimilated Enterprise crewman. Which is why they look like the old Borg instead of the 2410 Borg.
Again, not a retcon of the 2410 Borg drone design.
It doesn't change that 25th century Cryptic Borg require a face lift.
Cryptic has previously said they are unlikely to do a TOS or DIS era Klingon started because we know so little about what the Klingons were doing in either era besides attacking the Federation, and in both shows they were shown entirely as an enemy, and it wasn't until the TNG/DS9/VOY era that they became developed.
But you never know.
Somtaawkhar is opened to the possibility of someone wanting something he doesn't? That a first.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
That aside, I'm also on the side that expects that the KDF side will have an Alliance merge option around the Solanae/Delta Alliance arc when we're forming alliances anyway, and also opens up allowing unrestricted ship use as an Alliance member. Which is also all the more convenient for Cryptic; they now have a reason to do Rom and KDF ship designs besides Fed, since now Feds can buy and use them too and the KDF-side can start buying Fed ships for traits/modules they've been wanting/needing.
question for playable klinks now though. how do you roll a current toon into the mix, IF, they decide to fold them into the alliance as many have been talking about? sorry, but you cant just toss out peoples time and money into the klink life and expect them to not gain from an update such as that.
-snip-
i actually enjoyed the klink line again as i ran a new toon through it the past week. so it will be interesting to see how they meld them, if the point is to fold them in, or how they change it to make them more of a force to recon with if they keep them outside the fold.
It depends on how well the STO engine can handle a superficial "3rd faction". It seems possible, given the Romulan and Jem'Hadar mini-factions do allow some play before choosing a side, and even Disco and TOS Feds count as another functional mini-faction within the Federation group with their own specific special effects (Disco and TOS beam-up/beam-down animations). If so, Alliance would just be a new "faction" that simply has full unlock privileges to all Faction ships (possibly even equipment; maybe unlocking former faction-specific costume options, and unlocking Klingon Honor Guard/MACO options in Omega Rep for Alliance members, and if Cryptic overhauls the system a bit more, allowing Feds to visit KDF Fleet facilities and First City, and vice-versa for KDF).
So in theory with the aforementioned Alliance "faction", I'd assume Cryptic would ask ALL veteran players to replay that one Alliance mission, and get to whatever new dialogue is added to ask if your character is committed to the Alliance. "Yes" changes them to Alliance, and at the end of the mission, is now able to use ships of the opposite faction (Feds using KDF ships, KDF using Fed ships). "No" would keep the existing status quo, not able to use ships of the opposing faction, nor using Alliance ships (same way Romulans can't pick a KDF/Fed ship or equipment until they pick a side). Newer players who haven't completed that mission simply can't use gear of the opposite faction until they commit to the Alliance. Once "Yes" is made, players cannot go back and say "No", the mission simply skips that scene. Players could still say "No" and just get locked out of Alliance ships and cross-faction equipment use, and replay the mission to say "Yes" and become permanent Alliance.
If the STO engine CANNOT handle a late-game "3rd faction" like the Alliance, then Feds who have played through the mission where the Alliance is formed automatically become Alliance members and a flag is triggered allowing them to use KDF ships and equipment, while KDF gets a false choice. "Yes" changes them to Alliance members. "No" triggers a long spiel that results in only being able to choose "Yes, you've convinced me", and KDF players now become Alliance.
If anything, it seems to be more about Permission Flag coding than actual factions, "Yes" enables cross-equipment access, "No" keeps everything separate. So it's even more possible to get around the lack of a new "Alliance Faction" simply by making the "Alliance" a flag that can be flipped on (and can't be turned off once committed).
Actually, the Nausicans and Gorn are alien enough that they could already be showing both males and females and humans might not be able to tell the difference.
Little do they realize, those actually are female Naausicans. The males are pre-sapient, exist only for breeding purposes, and average about a meter tall. They also lack the prominent pincer-like fangs of the females, as they subsist primarily on fruit-equivalent (the sugars give them enough energy to keep up with the larger, more active females).
(Before anyone starts spitting here, yes, all that is entirely invented on the spur of the moment. The fact is, we know very little about Naausicans at all, except that they're alien. Problem is, everybody seems to expect them to conform to human standards of appearance.)
(Oh, and semi-canonical sources have already stated that like terrestrial lizards, the primary visual distinction between male and female Gorn is that the females are larger. So if you want to play a female Gorn, just crank those body sliders up and you're good to go.)
Somtaawkhar is opened to the possibility of someone wanting something he doesn't? That a first.
I've always been open to perfectly reasonable and doable possibilities. Its people wasting time wishing the game could cause their computer to print gold bricks I dislike.
You dislike people wasting your time wishing their computer could print gold bricks?
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Actually, the Nausicans and Gorn are alien enough that they could already be showing both males and females and humans might not be able to tell the difference.
Little do they realize, those actually are female Naausicans. The males are pre-sapient, exist only for breeding purposes, and average about a meter tall. They also lack the prominent pincer-like fangs of the females, as they subsist primarily on fruit-equivalent (the sugars give them enough energy to keep up with the larger, more active females).
(Before anyone starts spitting here, yes, all that is entirely invented on the spur of the moment. The fact is, we know very little about Naausicans at all, except that they're alien. Problem is, everybody seems to expect them to conform to human standards of appearance.)
(Oh, and semi-canonical sources have already stated that like terrestrial lizards, the primary visual distinction between male and female Gorn is that the females are larger. So if you want to play a female Gorn, just crank those body sliders up and you're good to go.)
It's because sex sells jonsills. They want those bazongas!
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
I'm pretty sure they'll look at including Ha'tesh's model as a selectable template (Head type category), as well as that of the Kelvin timeline Klingons (helms off appearance), through the course of working on the reimage. As it stands, its a lot of mucking around to merely get close to either type. I don't even think the Kelvin complextions are available at all (or even created in the game) as of yet; come to think of it?
Yeah I wish she was properly customizable.
Maybe that'll change during this process?
Theres a lot of things from Discovery that still haven't made it in yet. The Klingon EV suit, I'm surprised wasn't and option for Klingon players, in place of Burnhams:
If its even possible, it'd be cool if instead of just popping on / off your character when you activate them. These suits could lattice-on / off like they do in the show? Would be amazing!
Council member attire such as that worn by Dennas of D'Ghor (Mary McConnell): -- I mean, we are attaining diplomatic ranks as we progress through the game.
Formal / Diplomatic attire such as the iconic Valkris (Catherine Shirriff):
Are just some of the most wanted, that spring immediately to mind.
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> Recently I was watching "For the love of Spock" on netflix (I think) and in the docco, Leonard Nimmoy (among many others) made it pretty clear that budget per episode / film; directly determined what they could do in either. Especially where the creature shop is concerned, its very much an evolving process. -- Now, I think I read somewhere that DSC episodes are up to $11 million each? Pretty sure thats the highest Star Trek has ever had to work with per episode and the result is marvelous!
Please don't counter with unreasonable praise either. For that much budget there are plenty of letdowns. The space CGIy alone features plenty of glitches and clipping they never bothered to fix post production (missing effects, background ships clipping through each other). A big budget doesn't say much about quality.
Anyway, regarding the topic: Watching the trailer/video on twitter I hate to be that space pig, but I literally saw no difference between the new textures and the old ones. I tried really hard, watched it in full screen full resolution but I cannot see for the life of mine what they changed.
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Nothing out of the ordinary there. I mean just look at the difference between old First City and New First City. They basically took the old First City map, cleaned it up, add some brighter lighting, and some details here and there. Then they put it ingame and called it the New First City. I mean, when i visited it for the first time, I had to ask where the new First City was, because I didn't see an actual difference.
Not really, the budget is overlarge enough that they apparently got sloppy and lazy. It is not exactly an unknown thing for that to happen in Hollywood.
Besides, budget is not everything and never has been. Just look at TOS, they had a budget that could barely handle SFX at all and a lot of the iconic things were invented because they needed a cheaper way to do things. The transporters are a good example, they are an inexpensive cross-dissolve used in place of the much more expensive option of landing a shuttle or ship every episode (which back then would have taken half the budget for the episode to do). Too much money can be just as much of a crimp to creativity that way too small a budget can be.
those "klingons" do NOT exist. they are NOT canon and never WILL be, simple as that. the TRUE Klingon look has alREADy been established in ToS/STNG, ans explained in Ent. the how the humanized version came to be. there was never a need to change their "look"
aut vincere aut mori pro imperio
either to conquer or to die for the Empire
"Enough with the true Scotsman fallacy?" Good thing I am really Scottish then, lol. Not sorry that I am busting your bubble but you are literally being offended by a meme. There is even one of the same image in reverse. I never said you couldn't play as one. I am allowed to dislike and not consider them as Klingons that is my prerogative.
I am still discussing Klingons. Their aesthetics is one of them. it literally says "Year of Klingon" The hint is in the name for you. At no point did I say that you can't play DSC Klingorcs. Please learn the definition of gate keeping and use it correctly. Thanks! Toodles!
PS. Just because apples and oranges are fruits doesn't mean they have anything in common. They taste nothing alike and nor do they look the same in either appearance or texture. You screaming that it does and demand I say the same isn't going to EVER HAPPEN.
No, not well said at all. A personal witch hunt shouldn't be validated. I wasn't holding a sign up saying "NO KLINGON DSC ORCS ALLOWED". Someone stating their dislike for something doesn't translate to bullying or gate keeping.
That was the 60s... everyone knows that. It isn't some revelation. The difference between that design and DSC is those designers worked on top of the original complexion and built on top of the foundation. Discovery broke the mold and then murdered the mold-maker and decided to create something radically different. If it wasn't for all the Trekkies decrying it in season 1 they wouldn't have panicked and tried to appease them by throwing hair on their heads at the last minute in S2 or remove great deal of the rubber masks around their faces. Or throw in D7 class battle cruisers in the S2 finale. LOOK!!!! REMEMBER THEM!!! IT JUST LIKE TREK!! WE KNOW TREK!! SEE!! TEEHEE!! I can appreciate a few parts of DSC. That isn't one of them.
"especially where the creature shop is concerned, its very much an evolving process."
I wouldn't call devolving the same thing as evolution unless you're Gorilla Grodd that is. To be fair to JJ at least he kept them resembling Klingon. All he did was shave them and give few of them ridge piercings but they still remained for the most part the same design.
Yeah $9-$11 million. Sure visually good in some parts. Doesn't help the script etc. Throwing endless money at something doesn't automatically make something good.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Solid lump of hair is good enough if you don't want dreadlocks like this guy.
Which is funny considering that even Nausicaans had more hair variety besides Predator dreads.
Some old concept art. I am beginning to see where the dreadlock obsession sprang from. The old Borg models have the same problem concept art depicted them as zombie ghouls. I think Cryptic is slowly phasing them out because of the screen accurate lobi borg costumes they made.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
We might not like them but they are allowed to ask for content related to those cosmetics. If they really want to play as one of them as a faction though I don't see it happening. They can already use their ears and skin textures/uniforms in-game. If they even bothered to look.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
It's artistic licence by the old developers working on the game back on a very old engine. Trek has already seen 29th "future" Borg on Voyager and they don't appear like ghoulish zombies of STO. The 2010 designs are showing their age.
Btw they did replace them in the recent first contact ground event "One Night: In Bozeman borg". So yeah there has been an attempt and that is a good thing. When you give old content a face lift the whole point is to phase out the old stuff. They can even keep the zombie ones they originally created but they're in dire need of a update.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
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> Solid lump of hair is good enough if you don't want dreadlocks like this guy.
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> Which is funny considering that even Nausicaans had more hair variety besides Predator dreads.
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> Some old concept art. I am beginning to see where the dreadlock obsession sprang from. The old Borg models have the same problem concept art depicted them as zombie ghouls. I think Cryptic is slowly phasing them out because of the screen accurate lobi borg costumes they made.
Give me female Naussicans, and I'll be on board with creating a Klingon-aligned character!
CM
"Canon" is the wrong word for it actually, by definition they are "canon" because CBS owns the IP. What they are is a serious discontinuity if you look at Klingons as a monolithic race/society, but not so much if "Klingon" is the umbrella name for people from that empire. As I pointed out earlier, taking onscreen evidence and sociological cues into account the Klingons were anything but homogenous and monolithic even as far back as TOS.
In fact, with better attention to the writing (they actually focused more on eye-candy SFX and action movie schticks than plotting and worldbuilding) and clever twists of the preexisting history using the new viewpoint context of the show it could have been fantastic. The show could have done a deep dive into Burnham's war and actually sustained it in an interesting way if they had done that better scripting.
Also, as a nice side effect, a mix of actors in DSC, TOS, movie and TNG makeup versions would have made the dialog less tediously slow since the older makeups did not require the actors to fight it to speak (which resulted in very slow, ponderously slogging dialog) and the mix of talking speeds would alleviate the tedium somewhat. Another thing that would have helped, especially since they used handheld camera anyway, would have been using the old standard foreign language indicator schtick of starting a scene in Klingon then having the camera suddenly shift in the middle of a sentence (symbolically indicating a shift of perspective) and the actors use English from that point until the end of the scene.
In fact, they could have reversed that for a Klingon point of view of Federation speech, for instance showing some Klingons speaking English and when Burnham and Georgiou show up in their incursion have the Starfleet pair speak an English soundalike for a few seconds before "viewer" focus shifts to them and they speak English and the Klingons go back to speaking Klingon. It is probably much too subtle for DSC though.
They could also indicate the point of view with the lighting, if they did that the Klingon interiors would have the usual reddish light when the camera has a 'human/objective' viewpoint (and English subtitles with Klingon vocals) and white light when seen from a Klingon/subjective viewpoint when the Klingons use English vocals (and Fed ships could be the other way around, white light for the Starfleet crew viewpoint and a very cold blueish light from the point of view of Klingon boarding parties).
Anyway, that is getting too far off the subject. The point is, the problem is not in introducing a new type of Klingon makeup, it is in thinking that the viewers will accept it as the ONLY look for Klingons after the others were well established already. If they do it as an addition there is no real problem.
BTW, a good example of the "English soundalike" I mentioned is here (especially since the Klingons in the scene might know a few words of Federation Standard):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=98&v=Vt4Dfa4fOEY&feature=emb_logo
If they did that though it would open the doors to the people that want female Gorn.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
That aside, I'm also on the side that expects that the KDF side will have an Alliance merge option around the Solanae/Delta Alliance arc when we're forming alliances anyway, and also opens up allowing unrestricted ship use as an Alliance member. Which is also all the more convenient for Cryptic; they now have a reason to do Rom and KDF ship designs besides Fed, since now Feds can buy and use them too and the KDF-side can start buying Fed ships for traits/modules they've been wanting/needing. In a way, I'm also hoping for this, if only to allow more blended designs like the Alliance Battlecruiser (can we next have a Rom-centric design, like a slimmer, sleeker T6 Scimitar with Fed-style nacelles forming a "tail" and a giant phoenix painted on its belly and nacelle undersides), in addition to offering superficial "Fed/KDF/Rom" themed ships here and there. I say "superficial" only because this opens up new 2-ship or 3-ship pack options that just allow the consoles of each ship to work together rather than having to do the old 9-ship mega bundles, as well as making individual starship traits again (instead of 2-3 copies across 2-3 different ships).
I do wonder if they're also planning a Disco Klingon starter option, similar to the Disco Fed, as well as a TOS Klingon starter, again copying the TOS Fed. The Disco Klingon starter could see them changing their ways to matching the more modern Klingon philosophy after being pulled forward in time and trying to stop J'Ula. It'd also be as good a time as any to once again run a new character incentive either via the Temporal Agent or Delta Recruit program, if only to encourage players to try out the new and revamped KDF experience, with few extra Account bonuses (just extra level up milestones added to the existing KDF level up milestones) added for starting a new Disco Klingon, new TOS Klingon, and Disco Fed (added Disco Fed since I don't recall them also having a starter incentive the way TOS had a Delta Recruit incentive).
The 2010 Borg were deliberately created to show the Borg adapting, specifically to Voyager and others reclaiming the drones. By gutting them of even more biological parts, they can't be reclaimed because the person underneath is far too gone. I'm fairly sure this info used to be in one of the STFs back when they were complete stories.
Their use is fairly consistent as I've found with the newly assimilated being very obvious as to what they were, and old generation borg showing up when they should, but obviously most Borg we encounter are the zombies as you put it.
You don't have to like them, but there is in universe logic to them.
My character Tsin'xing
Ironically, TOS season four was going to dive deeper into the Klingons and turn them from the largely two-dimensional enemy they had been up til then into an understandable and even somewhat likeable political rival. The Trouble With Tribbles was the foreshadowing of that, Koloth and crew were supposed to become semi-regulars and the two ships would often be competing in the Organian Neutral Zone for planets and whatnot, and even occasionally team up against threats to both of them.
Unfortunately the fans only got the network to hesitate for one season in their decision to kill the show so we never got to see the Klingons in more detail or McCoy's daughter joining the crew and the family angst that caused the good doctor, or any of the other things they had planned for fourth season.
Well I have no way of verifying if the story you told is the reason for their designs. I do know that no matter how much you hack someone limbs off and mutilate their bodies they still remain human underneath. The idea of reclaiming your humanity even when they hack you to pieces has recurred in a lot of sci-fi. Robocop, Ghost in the shell etc.
I don't buy this created "in-universe logic" as it contradicts this.
I don't dislike the robotic flesh body horror. It's the whole anorexic thing that I don't really like. They look like the Borg Queen if she had her spinal cord exposed without her body armour casing. You would think they would have their Borgs walking in tank robot exoskeletons then ones that look like twigs.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
No they didn't. No quotes or sources means I only have their word. Even if it was the in-universe reason for their designs it's a complete contradiction. Removing more body parts doesn't strip someone of their humanity. That was the whole point of Picard/Seven arc and is reoccurring theme in lot of sci-fi that just because you're reduced to being a cyborg doesn't mean you're a mindless machine.
It doesn't change that 25th century Cryptic Borg require a face lift.
Somtaawkhar is opened to the possibility of someone wanting something he doesn't? That a first.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
It depends on how well the STO engine can handle a superficial "3rd faction". It seems possible, given the Romulan and Jem'Hadar mini-factions do allow some play before choosing a side, and even Disco and TOS Feds count as another functional mini-faction within the Federation group with their own specific special effects (Disco and TOS beam-up/beam-down animations). If so, Alliance would just be a new "faction" that simply has full unlock privileges to all Faction ships (possibly even equipment; maybe unlocking former faction-specific costume options, and unlocking Klingon Honor Guard/MACO options in Omega Rep for Alliance members, and if Cryptic overhauls the system a bit more, allowing Feds to visit KDF Fleet facilities and First City, and vice-versa for KDF).
So in theory with the aforementioned Alliance "faction", I'd assume Cryptic would ask ALL veteran players to replay that one Alliance mission, and get to whatever new dialogue is added to ask if your character is committed to the Alliance. "Yes" changes them to Alliance, and at the end of the mission, is now able to use ships of the opposite faction (Feds using KDF ships, KDF using Fed ships). "No" would keep the existing status quo, not able to use ships of the opposing faction, nor using Alliance ships (same way Romulans can't pick a KDF/Fed ship or equipment until they pick a side). Newer players who haven't completed that mission simply can't use gear of the opposite faction until they commit to the Alliance. Once "Yes" is made, players cannot go back and say "No", the mission simply skips that scene. Players could still say "No" and just get locked out of Alliance ships and cross-faction equipment use, and replay the mission to say "Yes" and become permanent Alliance.
If the STO engine CANNOT handle a late-game "3rd faction" like the Alliance, then Feds who have played through the mission where the Alliance is formed automatically become Alliance members and a flag is triggered allowing them to use KDF ships and equipment, while KDF gets a false choice. "Yes" changes them to Alliance members. "No" triggers a long spiel that results in only being able to choose "Yes, you've convinced me", and KDF players now become Alliance.
If anything, it seems to be more about Permission Flag coding than actual factions, "Yes" enables cross-equipment access, "No" keeps everything separate. So it's even more possible to get around the lack of a new "Alliance Faction" simply by making the "Alliance" a flag that can be flipped on (and can't be turned off once committed).
(Before anyone starts spitting here, yes, all that is entirely invented on the spur of the moment. The fact is, we know very little about Naausicans at all, except that they're alien. Problem is, everybody seems to expect them to conform to human standards of appearance.)
(Oh, and semi-canonical sources have already stated that like terrestrial lizards, the primary visual distinction between male and female Gorn is that the females are larger. So if you want to play a female Gorn, just crank those body sliders up and you're good to go.)
You dislike people wasting your time wishing their computer could print gold bricks?
Got you covered.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
It's because sex sells jonsills. They want those bazongas!
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Theres a lot of things from Discovery that still haven't made it in yet. The Klingon EV suit, I'm surprised wasn't and option for Klingon players, in place of Burnhams:
If its even possible, it'd be cool if instead of just popping on / off your character when you activate them. These suits could lattice-on / off like they do in the show? Would be amazing!
Council member attire such as that worn by Dennas of D'Ghor (Mary McConnell):
Formal / Diplomatic attire such as the iconic Valkris (Catherine Shirriff):
Are just some of the most wanted, that spring immediately to mind.