Not having seen the episode in question I can't say for sure how it played out but keep in mind that If you accelerate a niclkle iron astaroid the size of a basket ball up to even 0.5c you're looking at something that can hit with the force greater then any nuclear weapon we've ever developed.
Yep, and that's what the Navigational Deflector array on the front of every Star Fleet ship is designed to prevent such an object at such a velocity from hitting the ship.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,595Community Moderator
The asteroid that hit Discovery was at least the size of Discovery too.
Not having seen the episode in question I can't say for sure how it played out but keep in mind that If you accelerate a niclkle iron astaroid the size of a basket ball up to even 0.5c you're looking at something that can hit with the force greater then any nuclear weapon we've ever developed.
Yep, and that's what the Navigational Deflector array on the front of every Star Fleet ship is designed to prevent such an object at such a velocity from hitting the ship.
if the rock hit the hull clearly the navigational deflector array wasn't doing it's job. My point is that the material is only part of the equation. . blah blah blah science!
The relative speed was not very high at all though, in fact it was the rock rotating that made the impact iirc rather than something like a head-on collision. DSC ships are a lot more fragile and very, very thin skinned compared to a Constitution (and probably the D7 and Warbird). The TOS Enterprise bounced rocks as big around as the nacelles with no real damage that were moving faster than the one in DSC for instance.
In fact, not only was the wreckage of Jett's ship slowly collapsing under its own weight in the somewhat low gravity of the planetoid in the first episode of season 2, the hull blowout on the bridge of the Shenzhou in the DSC S1E2 episode shows its hull was only about an inch or two thick (it also illustrates the incompetence that went into the bridge design that includes people standing instead of strapped into chairs at stations where there is a danger of explosive decompression, but that is another matter).
in fairness standing stations on bridges pre-dates discovery a fair bit, the tactical station on the enterprise D also was a standing station. that always baffled me. the ONE station you're going to want staffed in a combat situation where the ship will assurably be taking hits....... is the one without a seat. *facepalm*
> @captainbrian11 said: > in fairness standing stations on bridges pre-dates discovery a fair bit, the tactical station on the enterprise D also was a standing station. that always baffled me. the ONE station you're going to want staffed in a combat situation where the ship will assurably be taking hits....... is the one without a seat. *facepalm*
The whole tactical station was not a good idea. The ship lurches left or right hard and the wood panels become a hazard.
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I was never a fan of the Ent-D or it’s bridge. The big wooden architecture seemed more hazard than anything. Plus the back stations are not visible by the Captain. Compare that to the original bridge and Kirk could spin his chair and see every station on the bridge.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I never much liked the enterprise D over all, it looked like something that had been designed by someone whose soul experiance with ships was being on a cruise liner
> @captainbrian11 said: > I never much liked the enterprise D over all, it looked like something that had been designed by someone whose soul experiance with ships was being on a cruise liner
It does give off a cruise liner vibe
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I think the Galaxy class was more or less intended to have that cruise liner vibe, because of the whole "having kids on the ship" thing, officers bringing their families rather than enduring long separations like a normal military-run ship.
I think the Galaxy class was more or less intended to have that cruise liner vibe, because of the whole "having kids on the ship" thing, officers bringing their families rather than enduring long separations like a normal military-run ship.
That building on the ground feel was on purpose, and actually went back to TOS. Roddenberry was going with the idea that "space sickness" (the stir-crazy stuff like in "Dark Star") could be treated the same way the Navy was trying to reduce stress in submarines on long deployments, and one of the theories was making ships seem more like ordinary buildings instead of like living in a steam tunnel would help.
That, along with budget problems and the fact that most of the set had to be built with the same ordinary lumber and materials as sitcoms and cop shows, is the reason for the flat walls in corridors instead of them being round tubes with exposed pipes, wiring conduits and junction boxes all over.
As an aside, one hilarious mistake DSC made is that on the carrier version of the Enterprise they kept opening and going through coffin-shaped doors without suits. In TOS those non-rectangular doors were supposed to be emergency section seals and airlocks, things that if closed were not supposed to be opened except by damage control parties or EVA personnel who knew what they were doing and had taken the proper precautions.
Anyway, the original intention was to have the control, engineering, and other "working" areas a sort of nice but minimalist and functional look while corridors and off-duty areas were supposed to look more "normal" and building-like, but the logistics of elaborate set redressings made them drop most of that idea.
The TOS production people even talked in memos about finding a small outdoor garden patio and filming that as a "natural setting" recreation room with real planters and benches but holographic projections on the walls to make it seem like it was on a planet somewhere, but that kind of casual location filming was not deemed worth the expense. If they ever do a Pike show on the Enterprise that would be a good thing to include though. They would not even have to do anything like the "arch" from the holodecks, the wall the door was in was supposed to look like a building with a door to the patio from inside the room.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,595Community Moderator
The TOS production people even talked in memos about finding a small outdoor garden patio and filming that as a "natural setting" recreation room with real planters and benches but holographic projections on the walls to make it seem like it was on a planet somewhere, but that kind of casual location filming was not deemed worth the expense. If they ever do a Pike show on the Enterprise that would be a good thing to include though. They would not even have to do anything like the "arch" from the holodecks, the wall the door was in was supposed to look like a building with a door to the patio from inside the room.
Well... they wouldn't even have to resort to a holodeck style setup as some larger ships do have an arboretum, which have actual plants. In fact... the Constitution Class had an arboretum, and, while looking rather plain due to being from the 60s, was actually shown in an episode of TOS. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Arboretum
TOS arboretum:
TNG Galaxy Class arboretum:
It is also implied that on the refit Connie, the arboretum even has exterior viewport windows.
In fact it was apparently intended to be an arboretum when Probert designed the refit Connie.
> @khan5000 said: > > It does give off a cruise liner vibe
> @phoenixc#0738 said: > (Quote) > > That building on the ground feel was on purpose, and actually went back to TOS. Roddenberry was going with the idea that "space sickness" (the stir-crazy stuff like in "Dark Star") could be treated the same way the Navy was trying to reduce stress in submarines on long deployments, and one of the theories was making ships seem more like ordinary buildings instead of like living in a steam tunnel would help. > >
Matt Jefferies complaint about the Motion picture was that it reduced the military functional of his designs too a “cruise liner.”
This space rover engineer makes a similar argument in this pop article:
In retrospect I think the Galaxy class was a bit of a miss-step design wise. But I probably wouldn’t feel that way if the Intrepid, Defiant, Sovereign, and NX (even though Archers ship should have been a Dedalus class (Can we forgive Dexler’s awesomeness for the retcon?)) had not been more awesome and oddly aerodynamic-looking than the Galaxy...
The Galaxy probably is more aerodynamic in actuality ...but it is wide rather than long.
> @khan5000 said:
>
> It does give off a cruise liner vibe
> @phoenixc#0738 said:
> (Quote)
>
> That building on the ground feel was on purpose, and actually went back to TOS. Roddenberry was going with the idea that "space sickness" (the stir-crazy stuff like in "Dark Star") could be treated the same way the Navy was trying to reduce stress in submarines on long deployments, and one of the theories was making ships seem more like ordinary buildings instead of like living in a steam tunnel would help.
>
>
Matt Jefferies complaint about the Motion picture was that it reduced the military functional of his designs too a “cruise liner.”
This space rover engineer makes a similar argument in this pop article:
In retrospect I think the Galaxy class was a bit of a miss-step design wise. But I probably wouldn’t feel that way if the Intrepid, Defiant, Sovereign, and NX (even though Archers ship should have been a Dedalus class (Can we forgive Dexler’s awesomeness for the retcon?))
had not been more awesome and oddly aerodynamic-looking than the Galaxy...
The Galaxy probably is more aerodynamic in actuality ...but it is wide rather than long.
True, Roddenberry and Jefferies wanted the working areas to be elegantly minimalist and efficient, but they wanted the other areas more relaxed and people-friendly, and the bridges on TNG usually violated that aesthetic mix.
One bit of behind the scenes trivia was that the TOS bridge was originally supposed to be carpetless as part of that but the subflooring of the set was badly flawed and noisy and they did not have the budget to rip it all up and fix it so they added heavy padding and topped it with carpet to keep the noise down, and still they had to heavily filter the sound and add constant background sounds to cover the rest, which is what gave Star Trek that peculiar sound quality it had.
Conversely, they could not start with a polished concrete floor and pretend it was steel since the soundstage they had for the permanent set was meant for doing theater scenes and other sloped areas and was actually ramped from one end of the stage building to the other so it was all on a wooden platform.
> @phoenixc#0738 said: > (Quote) > > True, Roddenberry and Jefferies wanted the working areas to be elegantly minimalist and efficient, but they wanted the other areas more relaxed and people-friendly, and the bridges on TNG usually violated that aesthetic mix. > > One bit of behind the scenes trivia was that the TOS bridge was originally supposed to be carpetless as part of that but the subflooring of the set was badly flawed and noisy and they did not have the budget to rip it all up and fix it so they added heavy padding and topped it with carpet to keep the noise down, and still they had to heavily filter the sound and add constant background sounds to cover the rest, which is what gave Star Trek that peculiar sound quality it had. > > Conversely, they could not start with a polished concrete floor and pretend it was steel since the soundstage they had for the permanent set was meant for doing theater scenes and other sloped areas and was actually ramped from one end of the stage building to the other so it was all on a wooden platform.
You must have some of the making of Star Trek books...I really want to get my hands on some but many are not didgitized. This Star Trek FAQ was interesting... I read what I could in the google preview yesterday.
> @phoenixc#0738 said:
> (Quote)
>
> True, Roddenberry and Jefferies wanted the working areas to be elegantly minimalist and efficient, but they wanted the other areas more relaxed and people-friendly, and the bridges on TNG usually violated that aesthetic mix.
>
> One bit of behind the scenes trivia was that the TOS bridge was originally supposed to be carpetless as part of that but the subflooring of the set was badly flawed and noisy and they did not have the budget to rip it all up and fix it so they added heavy padding and topped it with carpet to keep the noise down, and still they had to heavily filter the sound and add constant background sounds to cover the rest, which is what gave Star Trek that peculiar sound quality it had.
>
> Conversely, they could not start with a polished concrete floor and pretend it was steel since the soundstage they had for the permanent set was meant for doing theater scenes and other sloped areas and was actually ramped from one end of the stage building to the other so it was all on a wooden platform.
You must have some of the making of Star Trek books...I really want to get my hands on some but many are not didgitized. This Star Trek FAQ was interesting... I read what I could in the google preview yesterday.
The Whitfield & Roddenberry book is the best overall look at how the series was done, I bought that one when it first came out and re-read it quite a few times over the years. I also have Gerrold's tribble book though it is lost in a box in the attic somewhere, it is a deep dive on the making of that one episode for the most part.
A friend of mine had the LP record of the monolog that Roddenberry would sometimes give at conventions, it was called "Inside Star Trek" and has a lot of funny and informative anecdotes from the show (I have seen taped versions of it floating around at conventions and stuff too, there are probably copies of it in some form still around).
I am not sure if they have digital copies of those anywhere, but Starlog Magazine was digitized and it had a lot of behind the scenes stuff in it from Star Trek and other sci-fi shows. One place to read them is here: https://archive.org/details/starlogmagazine
though there may be other sites.
Some people, like Jefferies, had websites or blogs with some behind the scenes stuff too and there are a lot of articles and even scholarly papers about the show too that sometimes have background information (though for TOS the oldest stuff is more consistent and probably the most accurate, some of the papers from the '80s and '90s seem to have no idea what the zeitgeist of the '60s was and often draw some very odd conclusions (like for instance thinking the miniskirt uniforms were some kind of fanservice when actually the actresses preferred them since they were a symbol of female independence and empowerment back then).
I am not sure how many of those sites are still up, but even a decade or so ago there was quite a bit of first-hand behind the scenes stuff on the web, though by far the most of it was for later series and movies instead of TOS. A lot of the academic papers on Star Trek are locked away behind paywalls, I used to have a subscription to one of the biggest archives but that ran out years ago.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,595Community Moderator
and NX (even though Archers ship should have been a Dedalus class (Can we forgive Dexler’s awesomeness for the retcon?))
Its not a retcon if there was no information on a 22nd Century Enterprise. The Daedelus class did exist, but was probably a late 22nd Century design, vs the mid 22nd Century NX class. Hell... the Daedelus class could have been one of the first Federation starship designs at the time the Federation was founded, using advancements developed from ships like the NX.
If we use Star Trek Legacy as a reference, just as the Earth-Romulan War starts up, Starfleet is just starting to field Daedelus class ships. The opening cutscene of the Enterprise era actually has Archer talking with an Admiral, who says that 5 new Daedelus class ships were either just launched or are about to be launched. And in a later mission in the Enterprise era, Daedelus class ships were important in helping worlds hit by a bioweapon used by the Romulans.
The main issue is when the first Daedelus class was launched. As we don't see any in Enterprise, then we can assume that it was after the launch of the NX class.
I know it's completly beta canon but star trek adventures does a nice job at handling the Daedalas class, basicly the NX class was a high performance technology test bed and thus was slow to build had high maintance requirements etc. whereas the Daedalas was a cheap and easily constructed platform not as sophisticated per say but nearly as good for a fraction of the build time and resources. so it ended up being the backbone of the earth/romulan war, while the NX class where expensive cadallaics. prestigious yes, but not as, strategicly efficant as the daedelus.
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Comments
Yep, and that's what the Navigational Deflector array on the front of every Star Fleet ship is designed to prevent such an object at such a velocity from hitting the ship.
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if the rock hit the hull clearly the navigational deflector array wasn't doing it's job. My point is that the material is only part of the equation. . blah blah blah science!
In fact, not only was the wreckage of Jett's ship slowly collapsing under its own weight in the somewhat low gravity of the planetoid in the first episode of season 2, the hull blowout on the bridge of the Shenzhou in the DSC S1E2 episode shows its hull was only about an inch or two thick (it also illustrates the incompetence that went into the bridge design that includes people standing instead of strapped into chairs at stations where there is a danger of explosive decompression, but that is another matter).
> in fairness standing stations on bridges pre-dates discovery a fair bit, the tactical station on the enterprise D also was a standing station. that always baffled me. the ONE station you're going to want staffed in a combat situation where the ship will assurably be taking hits....... is the one without a seat. *facepalm*
The whole tactical station was not a good idea. The ship lurches left or right hard and the wood panels become a hazard.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
> I never much liked the enterprise D over all, it looked like something that had been designed by someone whose soul experiance with ships was being on a cruise liner
It does give off a cruise liner vibe
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
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Real Join Date: October 2010
That building on the ground feel was on purpose, and actually went back to TOS. Roddenberry was going with the idea that "space sickness" (the stir-crazy stuff like in "Dark Star") could be treated the same way the Navy was trying to reduce stress in submarines on long deployments, and one of the theories was making ships seem more like ordinary buildings instead of like living in a steam tunnel would help.
That, along with budget problems and the fact that most of the set had to be built with the same ordinary lumber and materials as sitcoms and cop shows, is the reason for the flat walls in corridors instead of them being round tubes with exposed pipes, wiring conduits and junction boxes all over.
As an aside, one hilarious mistake DSC made is that on the carrier version of the Enterprise they kept opening and going through coffin-shaped doors without suits. In TOS those non-rectangular doors were supposed to be emergency section seals and airlocks, things that if closed were not supposed to be opened except by damage control parties or EVA personnel who knew what they were doing and had taken the proper precautions.
Anyway, the original intention was to have the control, engineering, and other "working" areas a sort of nice but minimalist and functional look while corridors and off-duty areas were supposed to look more "normal" and building-like, but the logistics of elaborate set redressings made them drop most of that idea.
The TOS production people even talked in memos about finding a small outdoor garden patio and filming that as a "natural setting" recreation room with real planters and benches but holographic projections on the walls to make it seem like it was on a planet somewhere, but that kind of casual location filming was not deemed worth the expense. If they ever do a Pike show on the Enterprise that would be a good thing to include though. They would not even have to do anything like the "arch" from the holodecks, the wall the door was in was supposed to look like a building with a door to the patio from inside the room.
Well... they wouldn't even have to resort to a holodeck style setup as some larger ships do have an arboretum, which have actual plants. In fact... the Constitution Class had an arboretum, and, while looking rather plain due to being from the 60s, was actually shown in an episode of TOS.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Arboretum
TOS arboretum:
TNG Galaxy Class arboretum:
It is also implied that on the refit Connie, the arboretum even has exterior viewport windows.
In fact it was apparently intended to be an arboretum when Probert designed the refit Connie.
>
> It does give off a cruise liner vibe
> @phoenixc#0738 said:
> (Quote)
>
> That building on the ground feel was on purpose, and actually went back to TOS. Roddenberry was going with the idea that "space sickness" (the stir-crazy stuff like in "Dark Star") could be treated the same way the Navy was trying to reduce stress in submarines on long deployments, and one of the theories was making ships seem more like ordinary buildings instead of like living in a steam tunnel would help.
>
>
Matt Jefferies complaint about the Motion picture was that it reduced the military functional of his designs too a “cruise liner.”
This space rover engineer makes a similar argument in this pop article:
https://www.google.co.jp/amp/s/mashable.com/article/spaceships-realistic-sci-fi-science.amp
In retrospect I think the Galaxy class was a bit of a miss-step design wise. But I probably wouldn’t feel that way if the Intrepid, Defiant, Sovereign, and NX (even though Archers ship should have been a Dedalus class (Can we forgive Dexler’s awesomeness for the retcon?))
had not been more awesome and oddly aerodynamic-looking than the Galaxy...
The Galaxy probably is more aerodynamic in actuality ...but it is wide rather than long.
True, Roddenberry and Jefferies wanted the working areas to be elegantly minimalist and efficient, but they wanted the other areas more relaxed and people-friendly, and the bridges on TNG usually violated that aesthetic mix.
One bit of behind the scenes trivia was that the TOS bridge was originally supposed to be carpetless as part of that but the subflooring of the set was badly flawed and noisy and they did not have the budget to rip it all up and fix it so they added heavy padding and topped it with carpet to keep the noise down, and still they had to heavily filter the sound and add constant background sounds to cover the rest, which is what gave Star Trek that peculiar sound quality it had.
Conversely, they could not start with a polished concrete floor and pretend it was steel since the soundstage they had for the permanent set was meant for doing theater scenes and other sloped areas and was actually ramped from one end of the stage building to the other so it was all on a wooden platform.
> (Quote)
>
> True, Roddenberry and Jefferies wanted the working areas to be elegantly minimalist and efficient, but they wanted the other areas more relaxed and people-friendly, and the bridges on TNG usually violated that aesthetic mix.
>
> One bit of behind the scenes trivia was that the TOS bridge was originally supposed to be carpetless as part of that but the subflooring of the set was badly flawed and noisy and they did not have the budget to rip it all up and fix it so they added heavy padding and topped it with carpet to keep the noise down, and still they had to heavily filter the sound and add constant background sounds to cover the rest, which is what gave Star Trek that peculiar sound quality it had.
>
> Conversely, they could not start with a polished concrete floor and pretend it was steel since the soundstage they had for the permanent set was meant for doing theater scenes and other sloped areas and was actually ramped from one end of the stage building to the other so it was all on a wooden platform.
You must have some of the making of Star Trek books...I really want to get my hands on some but many are not didgitized. This Star Trek FAQ was interesting... I read what I could in the google preview yesterday.
https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=s_lxVMh_5xwC&pg=PT183&lpg=PT183&dq=hodgkins+law+spock&source=bl&ots=zAnmYOhi8s&sig=ACfU3U2NJhc8nVOTNj2pInfYsOYZTn6Y5g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiYz4qf-JPoAhWKwJQKHcl2AHcQ6AEwA3oECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=hodgkins law spock&f=false
Any recommendations would be appreciated.
This website gives a good list, though it does not have the LP record:
https://startrek.com/article/ten-for-ward-10-favorite-star-trek-behind-the-scenes-books
The Whitfield & Roddenberry book is the best overall look at how the series was done, I bought that one when it first came out and re-read it quite a few times over the years. I also have Gerrold's tribble book though it is lost in a box in the attic somewhere, it is a deep dive on the making of that one episode for the most part.
A friend of mine had the LP record of the monolog that Roddenberry would sometimes give at conventions, it was called "Inside Star Trek" and has a lot of funny and informative anecdotes from the show (I have seen taped versions of it floating around at conventions and stuff too, there are probably copies of it in some form still around).
I am not sure if they have digital copies of those anywhere, but Starlog Magazine was digitized and it had a lot of behind the scenes stuff in it from Star Trek and other sci-fi shows. One place to read them is here:
https://archive.org/details/starlogmagazine
though there may be other sites.
Some people, like Jefferies, had websites or blogs with some behind the scenes stuff too and there are a lot of articles and even scholarly papers about the show too that sometimes have background information (though for TOS the oldest stuff is more consistent and probably the most accurate, some of the papers from the '80s and '90s seem to have no idea what the zeitgeist of the '60s was and often draw some very odd conclusions (like for instance thinking the miniskirt uniforms were some kind of fanservice when actually the actresses preferred them since they were a symbol of female independence and empowerment back then).
I am not sure how many of those sites are still up, but even a decade or so ago there was quite a bit of first-hand behind the scenes stuff on the web, though by far the most of it was for later series and movies instead of TOS. A lot of the academic papers on Star Trek are locked away behind paywalls, I used to have a subscription to one of the biggest archives but that ran out years ago.
Its not a retcon if there was no information on a 22nd Century Enterprise. The Daedelus class did exist, but was probably a late 22nd Century design, vs the mid 22nd Century NX class. Hell... the Daedelus class could have been one of the first Federation starship designs at the time the Federation was founded, using advancements developed from ships like the NX.
If we use Star Trek Legacy as a reference, just as the Earth-Romulan War starts up, Starfleet is just starting to field Daedelus class ships. The opening cutscene of the Enterprise era actually has Archer talking with an Admiral, who says that 5 new Daedelus class ships were either just launched or are about to be launched. And in a later mission in the Enterprise era, Daedelus class ships were important in helping worlds hit by a bioweapon used by the Romulans.
The main issue is when the first Daedelus class was launched. As we don't see any in Enterprise, then we can assume that it was after the launch of the NX class.
https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/star-trek-discovery-movie-reportedly-works/amp/
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
"There's No Way Like Poway!"
Real Join Date: October 2010
*goes to nom on leftover b-day cake*