All [Kirk] had to was play his part along with his away team without alerting any suspicion (Firing on the Halkens with weapons set to stun covertly, he's achieved his orders and no one dies)...
The chief of security, Sulu, was also the weapons officer. How exactly was Kirk supposed to "covertly" alter the settings on Sulu's console, without him noticing and without leaving a record behind?
He did what he could by refusing to carry out the order; his mirror-self was sufficiently canny that his shipmates assumed he had some subtle game going and mostly just wanted to stay clear.
Shadow, if you want to play verbal games, Lorca enslaved a sapient being, which is not a good act. Better? (Not to mention his treatment of everyone around him as significant only insofar as they advanced his particular agenda - he killed a lover because she was in his way, for crying out loud.)
All [Kirk] had to was play his part along with his away team without alerting any suspicion (Firing on the Halkens with weapons set to stun covertly, he's achieved his orders and no one dies)...
The chief of security, Sulu, was also the weapons officer. How exactly was Kirk supposed to "covertly" alter the settings on Sulu's console, without him noticing and without leaving a record behind?
He did what he could by refusing to carry out the order; his mirror-self was sufficiently canny that his shipmates assumed he had some subtle game going and mostly just wanted to stay clear.
Shadow, if you want to play verbal games, Lorca enslaved a sapient being, which is not a good act. Better? (Not to mention his treatment of everyone around him as significant only insofar as they advanced his particular agenda - he killed a lover because she was in his way, for crying out loud.)
By altering his orders for the Halkens to be taken alive, Kirk's followed orders and no one is none the wiser.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Sorry I'm late to the party, folks. We're not going to judge other players for how they want to play. And you're certainly not going to come to these forums to flame, troll, insult, and gatekeep.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I'd be happy with some MU bridges, the I.S.S. Prefix and the skins for all ships.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
By the time prime!Kirk arrived on the scene, mirror!Kirk had apparently already revealed their orders - to Spock, at the least, and Spock addressed the question on the bridge, so one could easily presume the rest of the officers had been briefed. No, prime!Kirk was pretty well stuck at the time. As I noted, he did everything he could, including setting things up with Spock so that mirror!Kirk would be defeated as soon as he got back - he told Spock about the Tantalus Field, too. And he persuaded Spock to consider the illogical waste if the Empire were permitted to go on the way it was, to its inevitable destruction.
i know the mission, and unless they've changed something since the last time i played it (which was years ago, admittedly), you do NOT torture that captain to death...you torture him to a state of near-death, then beam aboard your ship and blow his up, but he does not die before that point
You're right. You torture the information out of the prisoner and then you beam to your ship and blow his ship up with him in it. That is one of my most disliked missions in the Klingon story. Another thing I don't do is the Execute for Incompetence DOFF. Yeah, I'm a wishy-washy Klingon . But I play them now and then now that I'm past the murdering missions.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
i know the mission, and unless they've changed something since the last time i played it (which was years ago, admittedly), you do NOT torture that captain to death...you torture him to a state of near-death, then beam aboard your ship and blow his up, but he does not die before that point
You're right. You torture the information out of the prisoner and then you beam to your ship and blow his ship up with him in it. That is one of my most disliked missions in the Klingon story. Another thing I don't do is the Execute for Incompetence DOFF. Yeah, I'm a wishy-washy Klingon . But I play them now and then now that I'm past the murdering missions.
It's fair to argue that a "real" Klingon warrior wouldn't blow up a ship that can't fight back, any more than they'd kill someone who is unarmed. That episode would be improved by giving you a choice, like we had with Hassan at Nimbus or the Ferengi in the Gamma quadrant in Operation Gamma. The choice to be more like samurai than barbarians.
i know the mission, and unless they've changed something since the last time i played it (which was years ago, admittedly), you do NOT torture that captain to death...you torture him to a state of near-death, then beam aboard your ship and blow his up, but he does not die before that point
You're right. You torture the information out of the prisoner and then you beam to your ship and blow his ship up with him in it. That is one of my most disliked missions in the Klingon story. Another thing I don't do is the Execute for Incompetence DOFF. Yeah, I'm a wishy-washy Klingon . But I play them now and then now that I'm past the murdering missions.
It's fair to argue that a "real" Klingon warrior wouldn't blow up a ship that can't fight back, any more than they'd kill someone who is unarmed. That episode would be improved by giving you a choice, like we had with Hassan at Nimbus or the Ferengi in the Gamma quadrant in Operation Gamma. The choice to be more like samurai than barbarians.
The idea of honour in warfare is a myth. Honourable warfare never existed in the first place. Armies have always used whatever means available to gain the upper hand. The tale that samurai warriors were honourable had as much truth in it as the myth of the honourable knights. Just like knights the samurai weren't all chivalrous and morally white. Samurai betrayed those that they were there to protect, took bribes, refused to show in battle, robbed and killed the poor and bunch of other things characteristic of actual 'human being' not made up guys in poems or characters that are morally pure white vs pure evil nonsense.
I always cringe when Worf speaks of honour like it some goddamn rigid code that everyone will follow to the letter and it certainly has no place within battle not if you want to live long enough to see another day.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
IMHO, the klingons only pay lip service to honor. no honorable warrior would use a cloak
Yeah they would. A cloaking device is just another tool of war. Only a fool would have qualms about using something that would give them a tactical advantage in battle. Is a predator dishonourable because he uses camouflage to stalk and hunt his prey?
WORF: "Sir, I strongly recommend against that. It is likely there are cloaked Klingon warships in the vicinity, lying in wait."
BASHIR: "Well that doesn't sound very honourable to me."
WORF: "In war, there is nothing more honourable than victory."
This is one of the few times Worf made some sense and kept his silly personal honour and Starfleet morals out of the picture.
It's fair to argue that a "real" Klingon warrior wouldn't blow up a ship that can't fight back, any more than they'd kill someone who is unarmed.
To a Starfleet officer with morals murdering a wounded solider would be unthinkable but to a Klingon it is a mercy killing. If I remember correctly the captain of that ship never surrendered for himself or on behalf of his crew. About destroying a disabled ship... well they were battleships, not a medical ship on a errand of mercy
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
i know the mission, and unless they've changed something since the last time i played it (which was years ago, admittedly), you do NOT torture that captain to death...you torture him to a state of near-death, then beam aboard your ship and blow his up, but he does not die before that point
You can split that hair as fine as you bloody well please. The fact is the player character is required to commit acts that violate the Geneva protocols to complete the mission, and unlike the Romulan player character, they do it of their own free will.
Never mind the fact that every time I played it on my Lethean -- who, by the way, could've simply mind-probed him, which is another problem entirely -- my boffs always killed him after I got the codes anyway.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
IMHO, the klingons only pay lip service to honor. no honorable warrior would use a cloak
"There is nothing more honorable than victory." -- Worf, son of Mogh
You see, "honor" to the Klingons doesn't equate to "fair play" or "sportsmanship" (and to paraphrase Sun Tzu, if you're in a fair fight outside of a sparring ring, you did something wrong). Honor constitutes standing up for yourself, your House, the Empire, and what you believe to be right. But how you win doesn't matter to them overmuch as long as you did it standing on your own two feet: that's why getting Federation or Romulan help in an internal war is considered proof you aren't worthy to rule the Empire in the "Redemption" two-parter.
As far as the Klingons are concerned, you're proving your honor by being out there in an armed ship, and by winning with it. If the other guy isn't prepared for attacks from cloak, that's their problem, not yours.
(This is not saying I endorse the point of view. I only say that if you're going to fight somebody, you need to be able to think like him.)
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
All's fair in love and war, if you have to play dirty to win, do it.
Winning's winning.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
i know the mission, and unless they've changed something since the last time i played it (which was years ago, admittedly), you do NOT torture that captain to death...you torture him to a state of near-death, then beam aboard your ship and blow his up, but he does not die before that point
You can split that hair as fine as you bloody well please. The fact is the player character is required to commit acts that violate the Geneva protocols to complete the mission, and unlike the Romulan player character, they do it of their own free will.
Never mind the fact that every time I played it on my Lethean -- who, by the way, could've simply mind-probed him, which is another problem entirely -- my boffs always killed him after I got the codes anyway.
Do the Geneva protocols/Geneva conventions even apply to the Klingons or any other alien race for that matter that isn't part of the UFP?
Chief O'Brien: "There are rules, Garak, even in a war!"
Garak: "Correction. Humans have rules in war. Rules that tend to make victory a little harder to achieve, in my opinion."
Always found the whole rules of war to be idealistic and paper thin that can never be enforced. Wars aren't humane, there only purpose is to kill and destroy.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Ah, I see you're a man of culture as well.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Ah, I see you're a man of culture as well.
I'm a 40K fan, Imperial Guard player on Dawn of War.
In regards to a playable Terran, I find the Federation to be too perfect and too much on their high horse and it's boring.
At least with the Terrans, you can be that morally grey type player (A Chaotic Neutral in the DnD scale).
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
All's fair in love and war, if you have to play dirty to win, do it.
Winning's winning.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
All's fair in love and war, if you have to play dirty to win, do it.
Winning's winning.
I could not agree more.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
There are actually very sound reasons why the Geneva Accords exist - nations that have done "whatever it takes" to win wars have frequently found that in so doing, they have harmed themselves more than if they had simply lost.
That being said, the Klingon Empire is not signatory to the Geneva Conventions, and are aliens - not just people with bumpy foreheads, but alien beings. Their psychology - their neurology - is not ours, and it's silly to assert that it is. The events of that mission might well leave a bad taste in a Human's metaphorical mouth, but to a Klingon, there's absolutely no reason to feel the least bit squeamish about killing the captain of that ship. After all, he cracked under levels of torture that to a Klingon are mere discomfort, less painful than a normal coming-of-age ceremony. In their eyes, that would mark him as weak, unfit to be treated as an equal, and utterly disposable. It's not like he sat through a mind-sifter, or was probed by a Lethean - he was merely being shot by disruptors on a sublethal setting.
As already pointed out, Klingons are not subject to the Geneva Convention. Garak was right. Humans have rules in war. And trying to ascribe human values and morals to alien cultures is ridiculous, although this is what Star Trek regularly does by holding up human morals and values as the only proper ones.
Klingons ritualistically subject themselves to pain. Pain is a thing that tests a warrior's mettle and is to be overcome. Interrogating the captain of the USS DeWitt through pain of torture would be a valid move. All cultures have and do use some form of torture to obtain information. The captain broke, thereby dishonoring himself in Klingon eyes, and deserving of death and an afterlife in Gre'thor. Killing him on the spot is an option before beaming out and scuttling the ship. Had the captain not broke, he may have still been killed, but in Klingon eyes it would've been an honorable death, because he would not have succumbed to fear and pain.
At any rate, this thread is not about Klingons. Long live the Terran Empire!
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Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Well, I know for a fact that @gulberat deleted her Klingon toon and never looked back because one of the leveling missions forces you to torture a POW to death.
i know the mission, and unless they've changed something since the last time i played it (which was years ago, admittedly), you do NOT torture that captain to death...you torture him to a state of near-death, then beam aboard your ship and blow his up, but he does not die before that point
You can split that hair as fine as you bloody well please. The fact is the player character is required to commit acts that violate the Geneva protocols to complete the mission, and unlike the Romulan player character, they do it of their own free will.
Never mind the fact that every time I played it on my Lethean -- who, by the way, could've simply mind-probed him, which is another problem entirely -- my boffs always killed him after I got the codes anyway.
Do the Geneva protocols/Geneva conventions even apply to the Klingons or any other alien race for that matter that isn't part of the UFP?
That's not my point. They're in force in the real life the player lives in, just like they're in force in the real life somebody watching Saving Private Ryan lives in. (You remember the scene where the GIs murder Czech conscripts who are trying to surrender, right? "Look ma, I washed my hands!")
My point, before people went off on this tangent, was that the Klingon PC is as "black hat" as Cryptic is willing to write, and even that's been too much for some well-respected players to condone.
Chief O'Brien: "There are rules, Garak, even in a war!"
Garak: "Correction. Humans have rules in war. Rules that tend to make victory a little harder to achieve, in my opinion."
Always found the whole rules of war to be idealistic and paper thin that can never be enforced. Wars aren't humane, there only purpose is to kill and destroy.
Garak's conveniently neglecting the part where the Cardassian Empire is a signatory to the Seldonis IV Convention (TNG: "Chain of Command"), so even they have rules. But then again, Garak's former occupation pretty much revolved around subverting rules, so I can appreciate his perspective.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
My point, before people went off on this tangent, was that the Klingon PC is as "black hat" as Cryptic is willing to write, and even that's been too much for some well-respected players to condone.
As for this bit...
Garak's conveniently neglecting the part where the Cardassian Empire is a signatory to the Seldonis IV Convention (TNG: "Chain of Command"), so even they have rules. But then again, Garak's former occupation pretty much revolved around subverting rules, so I can appreciate his perspective.
Except not lot of them bother following UFP treaty. Picard demanded to his jailer that he should follow the Seldonis IV Convention and they ignored and tortured him. The Klingons broke their treaty not once but twice. Federation will always try and force their human values and morals onto others and they break their own prime directive more times than not. Just like real life the the practice of it applies only when it suits them.
UFP favourite diplomacy is 'gunboat diplomacy' and it appears lot often in-game too.
"Law always chooses sides on the basis of enforcement power. Morality and legal niceties have little to do with it when the real question is: Who has the clout?" - Bene Gesserit: Dune.
Going little off-topic but if we listened to all those well-respected players we would have very little fighting games of any kind. Those well-respected players conveniently forgot about all the Klingons they had to kill but guess they can justify it because those Klingons don't value human ideals and are subhuman creatures that deserve to die because they're violent barbarian savages that way we can justify in killing them. The game very rarely allows feds to disable enemy vessels at all.
Every battle normally goes like this:
Also how any well-respected player can play the Fed side and be wilfully ignorant of the amount of massacre that happens while playing a federation character is beyond me. I am fine with blowing up everyone left, right and centre as Fed because my role model is W̶a̶r̶l̶o̶r̶d̶ Janeway, in her honour I kill indiscriminately whenever something crosses my path because that is what she would do too!
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Comments
He did what he could by refusing to carry out the order; his mirror-self was sufficiently canny that his shipmates assumed he had some subtle game going and mostly just wanted to stay clear.
Shadow, if you want to play verbal games, Lorca enslaved a sapient being, which is not a good act. Better? (Not to mention his treatment of everyone around him as significant only insofar as they advanced his particular agenda - he killed a lover because she was in his way, for crying out loud.)
By altering his orders for the Halkens to be taken alive, Kirk's followed orders and no one is none the wiser.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
i just refuse to tolerate ignorance or science-denial - whichever it is
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
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l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
You're right. You torture the information out of the prisoner and then you beam to your ship and blow his ship up with him in it. That is one of my most disliked missions in the Klingon story. Another thing I don't do is the Execute for Incompetence DOFF. Yeah, I'm a wishy-washy Klingon
It's fair to argue that a "real" Klingon warrior wouldn't blow up a ship that can't fight back, any more than they'd kill someone who is unarmed. That episode would be improved by giving you a choice, like we had with Hassan at Nimbus or the Ferengi in the Gamma quadrant in Operation Gamma. The choice to be more like samurai than barbarians.
The idea of honour in warfare is a myth. Honourable warfare never existed in the first place. Armies have always used whatever means available to gain the upper hand. The tale that samurai warriors were honourable had as much truth in it as the myth of the honourable knights. Just like knights the samurai weren't all chivalrous and morally white. Samurai betrayed those that they were there to protect, took bribes, refused to show in battle, robbed and killed the poor and bunch of other things characteristic of actual 'human being' not made up guys in poems or characters that are morally pure white vs pure evil nonsense.
I always cringe when Worf speaks of honour like it some goddamn rigid code that everyone will follow to the letter and it certainly has no place within battle not if you want to live long enough to see another day.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Yeah they would. A cloaking device is just another tool of war. Only a fool would have qualms about using something that would give them a tactical advantage in battle. Is a predator dishonourable because he uses camouflage to stalk and hunt his prey?
WORF: "Sir, I strongly recommend against that. It is likely there are cloaked Klingon warships in the vicinity, lying in wait."
BASHIR: "Well that doesn't sound very honourable to me."
WORF: "In war, there is nothing more honourable than victory."
This is one of the few times Worf made some sense and kept his silly personal honour and Starfleet morals out of the picture.
To a Starfleet officer with morals murdering a wounded solider would be unthinkable but to a Klingon it is a mercy killing. If I remember correctly the captain of that ship never surrendered for himself or on behalf of his crew. About destroying a disabled ship... well they were battleships, not a medical ship on a errand of mercy
and war isn't pretty.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
You can split that hair as fine as you bloody well please. The fact is the player character is required to commit acts that violate the Geneva protocols to complete the mission, and unlike the Romulan player character, they do it of their own free will.
Never mind the fact that every time I played it on my Lethean -- who, by the way, could've simply mind-probed him, which is another problem entirely -- my boffs always killed him after I got the codes anyway.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
"There is nothing more honorable than victory." -- Worf, son of Mogh
You see, "honor" to the Klingons doesn't equate to "fair play" or "sportsmanship" (and to paraphrase Sun Tzu, if you're in a fair fight outside of a sparring ring, you did something wrong). Honor constitutes standing up for yourself, your House, the Empire, and what you believe to be right. But how you win doesn't matter to them overmuch as long as you did it standing on your own two feet: that's why getting Federation or Romulan help in an internal war is considered proof you aren't worthy to rule the Empire in the "Redemption" two-parter.
As far as the Klingons are concerned, you're proving your honor by being out there in an armed ship, and by winning with it. If the other guy isn't prepared for attacks from cloak, that's their problem, not yours.
(This is not saying I endorse the point of view. I only say that if you're going to fight somebody, you need to be able to think like him.)
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Winning's winning.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Do the Geneva protocols/Geneva conventions even apply to the Klingons or any other alien race for that matter that isn't part of the UFP?
Chief O'Brien: "There are rules, Garak, even in a war!"
Garak: "Correction. Humans have rules in war. Rules that tend to make victory a little harder to achieve, in my opinion."
Always found the whole rules of war to be idealistic and paper thin that can never be enforced. Wars aren't humane, there only purpose is to kill and destroy.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Too late! It has been endorsed!
Ah, I see you're a man of culture as well.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
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I'm a 40K fan, Imperial Guard player on Dawn of War.
In regards to a playable Terran, I find the Federation to be too perfect and too much on their high horse and it's boring.
At least with the Terrans, you can be that morally grey type player (A Chaotic Neutral in the DnD scale).
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
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I could not agree more.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
That being said, the Klingon Empire is not signatory to the Geneva Conventions, and are aliens - not just people with bumpy foreheads, but alien beings. Their psychology - their neurology - is not ours, and it's silly to assert that it is. The events of that mission might well leave a bad taste in a Human's metaphorical mouth, but to a Klingon, there's absolutely no reason to feel the least bit squeamish about killing the captain of that ship. After all, he cracked under levels of torture that to a Klingon are mere discomfort, less painful than a normal coming-of-age ceremony. In their eyes, that would mark him as weak, unfit to be treated as an equal, and utterly disposable. It's not like he sat through a mind-sifter, or was probed by a Lethean - he was merely being shot by disruptors on a sublethal setting.
Why am I hearing Armin Shimerman's voice as I read this?
Klingons ritualistically subject themselves to pain. Pain is a thing that tests a warrior's mettle and is to be overcome. Interrogating the captain of the USS DeWitt through pain of torture would be a valid move. All cultures have and do use some form of torture to obtain information. The captain broke, thereby dishonoring himself in Klingon eyes, and deserving of death and an afterlife in Gre'thor. Killing him on the spot is an option before beaming out and scuttling the ship. Had the captain not broke, he may have still been killed, but in Klingon eyes it would've been an honorable death, because he would not have succumbed to fear and pain.
At any rate, this thread is not about Klingons. Long live the Terran Empire!
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This! ^
Long live the Empire!
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
My point, before people went off on this tangent, was that the Klingon PC is as "black hat" as Cryptic is willing to write, and even that's been too much for some well-respected players to condone.
As for this bit... Garak's conveniently neglecting the part where the Cardassian Empire is a signatory to the Seldonis IV Convention (TNG: "Chain of Command"), so even they have rules. But then again, Garak's former occupation pretty much revolved around subverting rules, so I can appreciate his perspective.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Except not lot of them bother following UFP treaty. Picard demanded to his jailer that he should follow the Seldonis IV Convention and they ignored and tortured him. The Klingons broke their treaty not once but twice. Federation will always try and force their human values and morals onto others and they break their own prime directive more times than not. Just like real life the the practice of it applies only when it suits them.
UFP favourite diplomacy is 'gunboat diplomacy' and it appears lot often in-game too.
"Law always chooses sides on the basis of enforcement power. Morality and legal niceties have little to do with it when the real question is: Who has the clout?" - Bene Gesserit: Dune.
Going little off-topic but if we listened to all those well-respected players we would have very little fighting games of any kind. Those well-respected players conveniently forgot about all the Klingons they had to kill but guess they can justify it because those Klingons don't value human ideals and are subhuman creatures that deserve to die because they're violent barbarian savages that way we can justify in killing them. The game very rarely allows feds to disable enemy vessels at all.
Every battle normally goes like this:
Also how any well-respected player can play the Fed side and be wilfully ignorant of the amount of massacre that happens while playing a federation character is beyond me. I am fine with blowing up everyone left, right and centre as Fed because my role model is W̶a̶r̶l̶o̶r̶d̶ Janeway, in her honour I kill indiscriminately whenever something crosses my path because that is what she would do too!
Anyway moving back on topic.
Terran Empire The Next Generation anyone?
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes